SuzukiSavage.com - EFI Project.

PRH111

Ex Member

EFI Project.
05/31/05 at 22:53:52

I haven't stopped by here in awhile...

I just finished my school project (and school) and now have time to begin that daunting task of building an EFI system for the savage. I am about to begin bashing away at a chip in a couple weeks to get my basic code down.

Sensors required:
Intake air temp
Manifold absolute pressure
Throttle position
Cylinder head temperature

Hardware required:
Injector
Intake manifold
Throttle body
Fuel pump
Fuel pressure regulator
Fuel return line

If anyone sees anything I am missing please make a note of it for me. I will be using the stock components to account for where in the rotation the engine is and it will therefore be "wasting" gas by injecting when the intake valve is closed at BDC since the stock ignition fires twice (not knowing when TDC occurs...only when TDC and BDC occur).

I already know where to get most of my information for basic numbers on fuel per air density for a given size of engine. There will be no feedback loop to keep the a/f ratio at any specific level initially. I will probably do some type of visual interface (LCD) to give feedback.

If I ever complete this project:
1. Is anyone else interested in converting their bikes as well?
2. How much of the work are you willing to do? I can program a chip with my code easy enough after I bash through it and I'd only charge the actual cost of the chip...but I'm not about to solder every circuit board together for everybody free of charge!
3. Would anybody be willing to pay for complete units where I include a charge of around $20 per hour of labor I put in added to the cost of the unit?
4. Would anybody just want the circuit diagrams and chip alone and then they would build everything else themselves if they wanted to convert to EFI?
5. No, I would not be willing to stock every single component involved to make it a "complete" kit...only the electronics involved.
6. Yes, I could do custom features if anybody has good ideas (altering fuel tables by X% every 500rpm for example).
7. No, I would not consider doing an ECU that controls ignition at the same time.

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LANCER Serious Thumper Alliance Member Offline Savage Beast Performance Parts Posts: 10683 Oklahoma Gender:	Re: EFI Project. Reply #1 - 06/01/05 at 07:01:08 I am interested. Do you have any wild projections about the price range...less than $500...less than $1000...etc? Thanks
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Savage_Rob Serious Thumper Alliance Member Offline Mechanically Inclined Amateur Posts: 6972 Texas (Dallas area) Gender:	Re: EFI Project. Reply #2 - 06/01/05 at 08:33:52 Oh hell no! One of my favorite things about the Savage is it's simplicity. I'll stick with stone knives and bear skins as long as possible.
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bentwheel

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2005 No Login

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Posts: 658
Sarnia, Ontario, Canada
Gender: male

Re: EFI Project.
Reply #3 - 06/01/05 at 09:05:04

Hello Patrick,
This is obviously a very ambitious project you have chosen to undertake. Your understanding of EFI is beyond my knowledge and I unfortunately have nothing profound to offer. It appears you have a good decipherment of this fuel delivery system, and I wish you success with your endeavor. I would however like to remind you of the myriad of problems that can complicate your R&D. I don’t have anything specific to detail but having previously owned an EFI BMW (which ran flawlessly for me but others reported surge and stalling symptoms) and witnessing BMW’s failure to cure its fuel injection problem for several years makes me overwhelmed by your undertaking. I also understand Yamaha is struggling with EFI surge & stalling on its V Strom.
I also can’t foresee enough people coming forward and wanting to install an uprated EFI system to such a simple engine. Part of the joy of ownership of a Suzuki Savage is the ease of maintenance and classic simplicity.
If building an electronic fuel injection system for the Savage truly interests you, then by all means enjoy your project. I hope my pessimistic honesty hasn’t affronted you.

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Bentwheel FSO
2006 Suzuki 650 V-Strom
1977 Yamaha XS360
1972 Honda CL175

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red2k1 Ex Member	Re: EFI Project. Reply #4 - 06/01/05 at 09:21:20 While the project is most interesting, I am in the same school as Savage_Rob.
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gazab44 Senior Member 2004 No Login Offline TO OLD TO DIE YOUNG.... Posts: 416 uk Gender:	Re: EFI Project. Reply #5 - 06/01/05 at 09:30:04 neat project..but why make something that works just fine in its simplicity more complicated i have owned cars with sensor here and sensor there and the only things that have gone faulty are the sensors
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Reelthing Serious Thumper Alliance Member Offline Fish or ride that is the question Posts: 5397 Houston,Tx Gender:	Re: EFI Project. Reply #6 - 06/01/05 at 09:44:26 Savage_Rob wrote on 12/31/69 at 16:00:06: Oh hell no! One of my favorite things about the Savage is it's simplicity. I'll stick with stone knives and bear skins as long as possible. I'll give that an Amen brother - the last thing I want is yet another computer to break and leave me on the side of the road!
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OffBelay

Ex Member

Re: EFI Project.
Reply #7 - 06/01/05 at 09:46:06

This sounds like a great project. Others are right, it isn't as easy as a paint job, but there is always fun in the challange.

One thing going for you that doesn't exist for factory guys, you don't have to make it perfect. BMW has to account for unburnt ity bity gases detectable only to big instruments. You just have to make it run. It probably won't surge if you shut off the fuel. Grin

Keeping things simple is right. But everything is relative. If we change the exhaust, we rejet. If we change the intake, we rejet. If we ride into the mountains, we wish we could rejet. Simple? No, it is a hassle. A good FI doesn't care... it is mapped!

Airplane and boat guys have developed controller chips and stuff for various engines from rotarys, big blocks, VWs and subarus. It might be possible you don't have to invent everything. Some of these chips also control the ignition as well as fuel, have on the fly adjustments for both timing and ingection. While testing a map, if pre-ignition is starting, one hit of a control and the timing is retarded a degree or so.

I'm interested in what you come up with, and would consider a 'kit'. Good Luck.

Dale
'New Owner for an Old Bike'
'98 salvaged Savage

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dannimal

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2005 No Login

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Posts: 100
Chicago IL (S/W Suburbs)
Gender: male

Re: EFI Project.
Reply #8 - 06/01/05 at 11:31:26

The idea is cool but really not needed on this bike. like everyone else is saying, this is just a simple single cylinder bike. What would it really gain having EFI? If you are going to do it as an "experiment", goto a cycle salvage yard and find a newer crotch rocket that got wiped out. I have seen some with EFI on them or maybe another touring bike of some brand or another. at least You'll be ahead with parts for your project!!

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-95 black savage- Supertrapp exhaust- K&N filter- custom mirrors & grips- Metzler 880's

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bobo383

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2004 No Login

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Neck=Red

Posts: 516
Arlington, TX
Gender: male

Re: EFI Project.
Reply #9 - 06/01/05 at 19:34:31

You read my mind. I'm thinking the very same thing. I didn't see a processor on your list - are you making the whole thing?

Stock GM and Ford pre-OBD-V ECM units (pre-1995 I think) would be fine units to burn a chip for, and already have so much aftermarket sensors and tech support available that's the way I'd go. And they're CHEAP, that does it for me.

I think a GM throttle-body (TBI) EFI would adapt the easiest, since it's a wet manifold setup, relatively low fuel pressure, and sooooo simple. You could even use the stock injector and pump. Thousands of late-80's cars available to steal from.

Just curious -- Why are you going baseline-only with no feedback? To make it totally closed-loop feedback controlled, all you'd need is an O2 sensor, knock sensor, and aftermarket electronic ignition module to vary the timing. That would really bring out the benefits of fuel injection, I think.

I guess you could say I'm interested....

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Arlington Texas
Used to have 98 & 88 Savages

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babbalou

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Lewisville, Texas
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Re: EFI Project.
Reply #10 - 06/01/05 at 21:09:49

Interesting project. I read an article on the Suzuki M50 in Motorcycle Consumer News & they liked what the 32 bit engine management system did for the engine. It's a similar system to the new Gixxer 1000. I wonder if a future S40/Savage might have one. If they had a reliable system that would optimize the ignition curve & fuel injection for maximum power at all RPMs factoring in engine load, air density, throttle position & intake vacuum it would be cool to see how it ran. One nice thing is that it would automatically compensate jetting for muffler swaps. I'm happy with the carb but I'm always wondering about those unknown possibilities. 8)

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Had an S40 Jul '04-Jan '07

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diesel Full Member 2004 No Login Offline Posts: 181 Watsontown, PA	Re: EFI Project. Reply #11 - 06/01/05 at 21:41:36 K.I.S.S.
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klx650sm2002 Serious Thumper Offline The more I learn the less I know. Posts: 2041 Cumbria,England Gender:	Re: EFI Project. Reply #12 - 06/02/05 at 05:03:03 45mm throttle bodies would be a good place to start. Clive W
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Savage_Greg Serious Thumper Alliance Member Offline Don't go around your ass to reach your elbow... Posts: 7844 SW Washington State Gender:	Re: EFI Project. Reply #13 - 06/03/05 at 15:00:55 klx650sm2002 wrote on 12/31/69 at 16:00:06: 45mm throttle bodies would be a good place to start. Clive W Mr Clive W. "Airflow" has done it again Do the exhaust too...
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klx650sm2002

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The more I learn the
less I know.

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Cumbria,England
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Re: EFI Project.
Reply #14 - 06/04/05 at 05:35:01

This is hypothetical as the Savage's ports won't go that big but if you were looking for maximum output you would use a 46.7mm i.d. carb and inlet port. For the exhaust port and first 8-9" of the header you need an i.d. of 39.7mm tapering out to 46.7mm over a distance of 1.5". Continue the 46.7mm i.d. untill you are 39" from the port then step up to 53mm for 4.5" then into the open air. By which time you would want to change the cam and so the pipe,it neverends.
Of course this can't be done and if it could it would run like a bag of nuts most of the time.

A Raask pipe and amal 38mm carb would be the safe option. Any 38mm i.d. header in fact.

Clive W Cheesy

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