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Message started by ThumperPaul on 03/09/24 at 08:17:50

Title: Tires - Cheap and Sticky
Post by ThumperPaul on 03/09/24 at 08:17:50

A topic that's been beaten to death, but here we go again. I'm considering new tires for Woody. She's wearing a pair of 9 year old Michelin Commander II right now. Tread is still decent, they still grip okay, BUT they are 9 years old and showing some age.

I want cheap! And I want sticky tires more so than a tire that will last 15,000 miles. Mostly, I want cheap. I'm probably not keeping this bike more than 1-2 years.

OEM IRC GS18 tires will run about $93+$124+10 at Dennis Kirk (total $227).

https://www.denniskirk.com/irc/gs18-tire.pfp540011.prdf?cid=384086846&aid=1304021006436136&keyword=4585100934281238%3A%3A&kid=4585100934281238&msclkid=2fa35be322e9170691943e0fa4235417&utm_source=bing&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=Shopping&utm_term=4585100934281238&utm_content=All+Products&fs=540011&rs=540012

A Dunlop D404 combo set deal is $204 at MotoSport.com but the rear is 130/90-15 rear instead of OEM 140/80-15.
https://www.motosport.com/dunlop-d404-tire-combo?mmy=suzuki;ls650;2005&mmy_source=pdp&variant[DUN000M]=DUN000M-X001-Y010&variant[DUN000O]=DUN000O-X001-Y001

Can someone recommend a "cheap" set of tires? Maybe Shinko 712s or Kenda (not real sure about Kenda). Shinko 712 doesn't come in the right size for the rear. Sizes for our bike is a bit of a challenge too.

My tire install guy doesn't like to install Shinkos (won't install) - says he has problems getting them to bead. Perhaps so on a tubeless tire mount, but not sure why it would be a problem with tube tires. He doesn't like to discuss it much - it's a sore spot with him.

Cheap guys. Please don't start bragging about your awesome expensive tires. I will listen to "value logic" and I'll probably end up here in the end. Thanks.

Title: Re: Tires - Cheap and Sticky
Post by Surviving Philly on 03/09/24 at 09:14:31

Honestly, options seem very limited for us due to the rear.

Not exactly an answer to your question but I have ran metzler 888's over the last two years and I despise these tires. Overpriced, less grip than the 880s they no longer stock ( in our sizes anyway ).

I'm eyeing a set of cruisetecs for this year. More grip, less milage ( who TF cares about getting 20,000 miles from bike tires? I want to stick to the road man...)

I've heard the shinko 777s are great bang for the buck but also not available in our size range.

Title: Re: Tires - Cheap and Sticky
Post by DragBikeMike on 03/09/24 at 09:18:24

I just installed a Shinko R230 Tour Master (130/90-15) on the rear. Only have several hundred miles on it but so far it works fine. No handling or braking issues. It was easy to install, no problem getting the bead to seat. It cost $100 bucks via Dennis Kirk. Shipping to the islands is another story (almost as much as the tire).

The Shinko rolling diameter is only 1/4" larger that the stock IRC (Tire height 3-5/8" for IRC, 3-3/4 for Shinko). I prefer it to the Dunlop 404 because the rolling diameter is much closer to stock, and the Dunlop is heavy. Have to see how the Shinko performs over time.

Most mileage I ever got from a rear tire on the LS is the IRC I just replaced. I squeezed 10K out of it but had to make it look like this in order to get to 10K. Should have replaced it at about 7.5K.

Title: Re: Tires - Cheap and Sticky
Post by DragBikeMike on 03/09/24 at 09:25:41

The worn-out IRC had a rolling diameter that was 3/4" smaller than the Shinko (Tire height on worn IRC was 3-3/8). That made a significant difference in cruising RPM, probably about 200 to 300 rpm. If comparing a new IRC to a new Shinko, probably wouldn't even notice any change, but comparing the severely worn IRC to the new Shinko it was very noticeable.

Title: Re: Tires - Cheap and Sticky
Post by ThumperPaul on 03/09/24 at 10:54:55

I’m shocked and impressed you still had that much tread, DBM! Lol.

The IRC tires seem pretty decent for the price. My first ‘04 Savage was still riding on the original IRCs when I bought the bike in 2022. They honestly held up really well for 18 years old and 7500 miles. They worked, but I never really experienced or pushed them before replacing with Dunlop D404s. I went up a size on the rear to 150/80 if recall correctly. The Dunlops were ok for every day normal riding.

Rather than go up to 150/80 on the rear, it’s good to hear about experience running a 130/90 on the rear. It sounds skinny for today’s modern standards and the trend toward fatter and fatter rear tires. But it sounds quite satisfactory.

Title: Re: Tires - Cheap and Sticky
Post by ThumperPaul on 03/09/24 at 11:59:05

I just priced out the Shinko 230 Tour Master at Dennis Kirk. $89 + $102 + 10 = $201. This is for the 130/90 rear as opposed to OEM 140/80.

So $26 cheaper for the pair than the IRCs with 140/80 rear.

https://www.denniskirk.com/shinko/230-tour-master-tire.pfp544683.prdf?fs=544696&rs=544705

Title: Re: Tires - Cheap and Sticky
Post by Dave on 03/09/24 at 12:06:11

192538203D283F1D2C38214D0 wrote:

Shinko Tourmaster 230 is the "Go To" tire for those who want a good tire at a good price.

Michelin Commander is the tire for those who are handy with a checkbook and want to get 20,000 miles from a tire.

Title: Re: Tires - Cheap and Sticky
Post by ThumperPaul on 03/09/24 at 12:25:27

Dave, where are these Shinko Roadmaster 231? I can't find them under this name/number.

Title: Re: Tires - Cheap and Sticky
Post by ThumperPaul on 03/09/24 at 13:08:15

The IRCs in OEM sizes are $225 for the combo set at Motosport.com. About the same price as Dennis Kirk. Kirk charges $5/tire shipping, but motosport.com has free shipping. But net/net, the total prices are virtually the same $225 vs. $227.

The Shinko 230s look about like it for $201 for a matching set, albeit with a 130/90 vs 140/80 rear tire.

https://www.motosport.com/irc-gs18-grand-high-speed-tire-combo?variant[IRC000B]=IRC000B-X001-Y001&variant[IRC000C]=IRC000C-X001-Y001

Title: Re: Tires - Cheap and Sticky
Post by Dave on 03/09/24 at 14:00:11

Oops! I meant the Tourmaster 230...fixed my post!

I put a set on the rescue bike that I fixed up, rode for a while and then sold to a local woman. And now I have them fitted to my Retro Standard project.

They are good tires.

Title: Re: Tires - Cheap and Sticky
Post by ThumperPaul on 03/09/24 at 15:25:41

Cool. Glad my internet isn't broke.

Since you and Mike can both vouch for them, I'm onboard!

Title: Re: Tires - Cheap and Sticky
Post by Savard 05 on 03/12/24 at 03:56:38

Just to throw in my advice I went with kenda challenger 130/90/15 for rear and have had great experience with them so far and when compared to stock irc tire they were identical in size. I did kenda k657 front 100/90/19. I've got 2000 miles on them so far and enjoy them well for cheap!!!

Title: Re: Tires - Cheap and Sticky
Post by ThumperPaul on 03/12/24 at 05:16:27

Hey Savard. Thanks for chiming in on the Kenda tires! For some reason Kenda lost favor in the market a long time ago, and I never understood why. I had a set on a 250 dirt bike and they were a bit soft, but good tires for the money. I may give them another look based on your review.

Comparing 140/80 to 130/90 is close. Obviously 10mm narrow thread on the 130, but the aspect puts the sidewall height at:

140 x 0.8 = 112mm
130 x 0.9 = 117mm

All else being equal, depending on thread thickness/shoulder constuction, the 130/90 is about 10mm (1cm) taller overall. It theoretically would slightly change the gear ratio a tad and lower RPMs at cruising speed (as Mike noted maybe 200-300rpm).

Title: Re: Tires - Cheap and Sticky
Post by zipidachimp on 03/12/24 at 16:14:20

I've used Kenda for the last 12 years, never a problem.
Considering the weight of this bike and how it is likely to be ridden, any more than 130 is a waste, pure cosmetics, IMO !
My own bike is 120/90-16 rear, 100/90-18 front, Kenda !
Cheers! 8-)
ps: Norton Commando was 90/90-19, heavier and much faster !

Title: Re: Tires - Cheap and Sticky
Post by Dave on 03/12/24 at 16:38:53

796A736A6762606B6A6E73030 wrote:

Considering the weight of this bike and how it is likely to be ridden, any more than 130 is a waste, pure cosmetics, IMO !
My own bike is 120/90-16 rear, 100/90-18 front, Kenda !
Cheers! 8-)
ps: Norton Commando was 90/90-19, heavier and much faster !

Yep - it doesn't take much tire to handle the power and weight of a Savage. I ran a 110/90-18 rear tire for a while and it never slipped and didn't wear out any faster than a wide tire. A lighter tire helps improve performance as well.......it just looks a bit weird by modern standards.

Title: Re: Tires - Cheap and Sticky
Post by ThumperPaul on 03/12/24 at 17:17:24

I like the positive reviews on the Kenda! That’s good to hear for a really affordable tire. And the votes that 130/90 gets the job done on the Savage is good to know. For $150 for a pair of tires, the Kenda are hard to pass up and give a shot!

Title: Re: Tires - Cheap and Sticky
Post by Surviving Philly on 03/13/24 at 21:32:44

Has anyone had any experience or otherwise opinions on the pierelli MT route 66 tires? They are relatively cheap and referred to as very sticky. I've been eyeing them as my next set but tire supply seems really low currently across retailers.

Title: Re: Tires - Cheap and Sticky
Post by Surviving Philly on 05/07/24 at 15:45:02

Want to revive this short lived thread for a moment, while I'm budgeting for new parts for other issues.

I've been seriously unhappy with the metzler 888's I've been running. I find them to be hard, unreliable in wet especially.

Is the general consensus that the kendas mentioned previously are the best, current, sticky tire options for us?

Let's assume cost is not a constraint, what would the community say is the best grip tire on the market today?

Title: Re: Tires - Cheap and Sticky
Post by Dave on 05/08/24 at 04:17:29

5160746D6F6E6D606F010 wrote:

I've been seriously unhappy with the metzler 888's I've been running. I find them to be hard, unreliable in wet especially.

Let's assume cost is not a constraint, what would the community say is the best grip tire on the market today?

The Metzler 888 is a high mileage tire - the rubber is compounded for lots of miles before it is worn out. The Michelin Commander is similar, and some folks get 20,000 miles from them. This hard rubber focuses on mileage - not wet weather traction, and they can be scary when riding on wet roads.

My personal budget "Go To" tire is the Shinko Tourmaster 230. It provides good wet weather grip and will likely last 10,000 miles, and it is priced reasonably.

Title: Re: Tires - Cheap and Sticky
Post by ThumperPaul on 05/08/24 at 04:50:18

I like Dave’s recommendation. He’s tried way more tires than most people from all those burnouts and scraping his knees in the twisties!

My tire guy whines about Shinko being difficult to bead, but no one else seems to have this problem. I think he just had a bad experience so now he shuns the tires and won’t install them.

I can only compare the Michelin Commander II, Dunlop D404, and original IRC. As Dave noted, the Michelin aren’t great for traction. The Dunlop seem heavy but better traction. The IRC seemed good all around.

Since my installer guy refuses to do Shinko installation, I’m actually considering going with the OEM IRC tires in the exact OEM size match for $225/set.

I’ve narrowed my shopping down to the Shinko, IRC, and Kenda based on other people’s input and my own experience.

https://www.motosport.com/product/?code=SS-M-G-P-NA-PLA-CRUISER&key=IRC-GS18-Grand-High-Speed-Tire-Combo&cc=us&variant%5BIRC000P%5D=IRC000P-X001-Y001&cc=us&variant%5BIRC000P%5D=IRC000P-X001-Y001&utm_source=google&utm_medium=pla&gad_source=1&gclid=Cj0KCQjwxeyxBhC7ARIsAC7dS3_Lj2uVfFIMInF6fl0vGRIRx4F91EbZmrdkTg9jWqscph6yYs6n_YUaArErEALw_wcB&gclsrc=aw.ds

Title: Re: Tires - Cheap and Sticky
Post by Dave on 05/09/24 at 03:01:21

4C706D75687D6A48796D74180 wrote:

I have mounted several sets of Tour aster 230's, and they are not at all weird or difficult to mount. You have to put tubes in them for the Savage - but it is still a normal installation. Shinko makes a lot of different styles of tires - maybe your installer should expand his horizons and mount some Tourmasters for you!

Mounting "GT" rated Sport Touring tires is a real challenge. They are designed for the heavier bikes and they have stiff casings to help maintain their shape when you are loaded up and riding double! They are especially challenging when they are cold - setting them in the sun helps a great deal. Unfortunately the last one I mounted was for the Texas trip and I could not wait until we got hot weather and sun - so the tire and I had a wrestling match...and I eventually won with the help of a few clamps to aid in squeezing the tire on!

Title: Re: Tires - Cheap and Sticky
Post by ThumperPaul on 05/09/24 at 06:05:59

I agree Dave! I think my installer’s Shinko experience is limited to a specific difficult Shinko tire and if I remember the story correctly it was on a big Harley. But he’s a stubborn old fart and seems to have his mind set. I may poke the bear again about him trying it for me on the TourMaster 230s.

Yeah, we have no problem baking the tires in the sun on 140° blacktop down here in Texas! They become like fresh baked brownies straight out of the oven!

Title: Re: Tires - Cheap and Sticky
Post by Michael Moore on 05/09/24 at 18:03:19

I got my 650 home today and see that it has a pretty fresh set of tires on it from the prior owner, a Shinko 10 SF71-712F 100/90-19 on the front and an IRC Grand High Speed GS18R 140/80x 15 on the back, with the IRC appearing to be the OEM tire (though this one is definitely not the original on a 15K mile bike). They look like real tires to me, but I won't be able to try them out for a week or so.

IIRC, 40 years ago when I raced my 750 bevel Ducati it had a 100x18 Metzler ME99 Sport on the front and a 130x18 ME77 Sport on the back. The Ducati weighed more and had more power than the Savage, and I don't recall ever thinking that I needed wider tires (the tires I had needed more rider! :) ). I'd not be surprised if the newer Shinko/IRC have as much or more grip as those old Metzlers, and would work well for most of the 650 riders. Modern tires have improved a lot since the old days.

Title: Re: Tires - Cheap and Sticky
Post by Dave on 05/10/24 at 04:20:00

1A3E343F36323B1A38382532570 wrote:

IIRC, 40 years ago when I raced my 750 bevel Ducati it had a 100x18 Metzler ME99 Sport on the front and a 130x18 ME77 Sport on the back. The Ducati weighed more and had more power than the Savage, and I don't recall ever thinking that I needed wider tires (the tires I had needed more rider! :) ).

Old Norton, Ducati, BMW and Triumph motorcycles had 4.00" or 100mm wide tires on the back and had more weight and double the HP of the Savage. Even when raced the bikes had that narrow of a tire - I have a friend that used to race a Norton and he currently has a couple of nice restored bikes - he can ride faster on those narrow tires than a lot of the sport bike fellows he rides with.

The current use of wider tires on Cruisers is more of a fashion statement than it is a need......folks like the looks of a wide tire. Motorcycles will accelerate faster and stick just fine with a lighter and narrower tire. With my Cafe' bike I was experimenting with different size rims and I originally had a 2.50" wide rear rim and a 110/90-18 rear tire - it handled great and I never had a need for a wider tire.....but it looked a bit weird as we are used to seeing much wider tires on modern motorcycles. My final choice is a 130/70-18 on a 3.50" wide rim.

Modern sport bikes have really wide tires - mostly because they have very soft compound tires and they need a lot of rubber to get any reasonable amount of tire life. Some of those sport bike tires can wear out in 3,000 miles!

For the stock sized Savage: The stock 140/80-15 tire is a weird size, and IRC is about the only company that makes that size.....it is an "OK" tire - but not anything special. A 130/90-15 tire is within a few millimeters of the original size and works very well on the Savage and it provides you with far more choices in brands and styles of tire. Some folks go to a larger 140/90-15 tire - that bigger tire is heavier and does slow the handling down a bit...it does provide for a bit taller gearing that can help correct a speedometer that reads too slow and if you spend a lot of time going in straight lines down the highway that heavier/wider/taller tire can help provide a bit more straight line stability.

Title: Re: Tires - Cheap and Sticky
Post by ThumperPaul on 05/10/24 at 05:22:26

Thanks guys. I’m fine with the 130/90 in the rear compared to 140/80. Dave, you and DBM’s earlier comments about the Shinko Tour Master 230 make those my first choice. I mentioned the IRC because they meet the criteria of “cheap” (or not expensive) and they have the exact original size.

I don’t want to replace the tires myself, so I’m really hoping I can get my installer to change his adversity towards Shinkos and do the install when the day comes. He’s a small business local good guy that I’d like to support. And again, I really don’t want the headache of installing myself.