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SuzukiSavage.com
/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> 87’ experienced a “Rapid Unscheduled Disassembly” /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1683597820 Message started by Celeste on 05/08/23 at 19:03:39 |
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Title: 87’ experienced a “Rapid Unscheduled Disassembly” Post by Celeste on 05/08/23 at 19:03:39 So there I was, licking BBQ sauce off her… wait. Wrong story. Ahem, My savage experienced a “RUD”. The counterbalance decided it needed to see the light, get more air, fly like an eagle, etc… Everything else in the engine is fine. But I have questions…. (1) Why? What is the point of failure, is there other components of the engine I should be concerned about before rebuilding? (2) Rebuild, or totally (used) new engine from EBay? |
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Title: Re: 87’ experienced a “Rapid Unscheduled Disassemb Post by Celeste on 05/08/23 at 19:04:37 Stepping out into the sunlight!!!! |
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Title: Re: 87’ experienced a “Rapid Unscheduled Disassemb Post by Celeste on 05/08/23 at 19:05:51 More pictures of the “Rapid Unscheduled Disassembly |
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Title: Re: 87’ experienced a “Rapid Unscheduled Disassemb Post by Ruttly on 05/08/23 at 21:58:42 How much time on the clock ? That’s the 4th one I’ve seen so far , in 7 years or so. That really sucks ! |
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Title: Re: 87’ experienced a “Rapid Unscheduled Disassemb Post by DragBikeMike on 05/09/23 at 01:58:57 RIP. That motor is done. Salvage whatever parts might still be serviceable. Look for a replacement engine. Sorry for your loss. These balancer blowouts are scary. It would be of great benefit to all of us if you could post some more photos. Since the balancer is out of the way, could you take a picture like this one. See that drive pin circled in red. Do you have one of those sticking out of the crank, or possibly in the bottom of the crankcase? |
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Title: Re: 87’ experienced a “Rapid Unscheduled Disassemb Post by DragBikeMike on 05/09/23 at 02:00:47 That particular pin drives the balancer drive gear. It is pressed into the gear and rides in a hole in the crank. When things are correct, it should look like this, nice and tight in the drive gear. |
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Title: Re: 87’ experienced a “Rapid Unscheduled Disassemb Post by DragBikeMike on 05/09/23 at 02:03:21 Take the driven gear off the balancer shaft and inspect the drive key. Your pictures looks like the key may have failed. Can't tell for sure until you remove the gear. Is the key in good shape or does it look like this? |
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Title: Re: 87’ experienced a “Rapid Unscheduled Disassemb Post by DragBikeMike on 05/09/23 at 02:18:44 When you did your cam chain job, did you remove the cam sprocket from the end of the crankshaft? That particular sprocket is easy to break. The nut that holds on the primary drive gear and cam drive sprocket is left-hand threads. It's easy to overtighten the nut and fracture the drive sprocket. You must have at least removed the primary drive nut to retime your cam. How did you reassemble? Did you tighten it up with a torque wrench? What torque value did you use? ..........or......... Did you use a rattle wrench? When the sprocket fractures, you lose the pinch that locks everything together on the crank. Once the pinch is lost, the system relies solely on that round drive pin to drive the balancer drive gear. The continual back & forth motion works the drive pin loose and the the balancer system goes out-of-time and the rod hits the balance weight. Kaboom! This is a good drive sprocket. |
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Title: Re: 87’ experienced a “Rapid Unscheduled Disassemb Post by DragBikeMike on 05/09/23 at 02:20:13 This is a failed sprocket. I suspect the primary drive nut was overtightened, which caused the sprocket to fracture. |
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Title: Re: 87’ experienced a “Rapid Unscheduled Disassemb Post by Dave on 05/09/23 at 04:07:06 Wow.....I hate when that happens! Ebay engines are a somewhat of a gamble. Some of them look like they could be running engines....a lot of them are are projects and need to be taken apart and built back up from the bottom. I see very few of them that are in good enough shape to "bolt in" and expect to be reliable. . Stuff like this is just insane: https://www.ebay.com/itm/385587538743?hash=item59c6ceeb37:g:SiEAAOSwurtkUX55&amdata=enc%3AAQAIAAAA4AS2SUHyKes7gecvZiJxJyn3SKf8KEPV%2BmE24jeCseuW6XYlc%2FyH38Gbbd0bOgyxaoRDkWkqx4legPuGcOCrF1psMeQjN2K6yejZrS3MD4tI52%2FPKNhMMQJpaZ5Axew1v3qSpVBUt2a%2BYN4wRtLGnHyn4pF17JXN7lpLKdWwmJbVYDcWSGu2fG4bjYFcv6BpJmpXbX4IVQGccmYsdnNITxNEZqbbOQr4zocz%2B4ARMNI40%2FQvHMM8Y8UU7%2FJ6l0A%2FUZy3eFeCIRdq%2FVdbGm0E1JvlRTshM1xtdbsi4tdl1wq5%7Ctkp%3ABk9SR_6mq4KAYg I don't know your mechanical abilities....if you could get a good bottom end it is likely that you could build an engine using your existing top end. Gaskets/seals, etc always adds a considerable amount of money for me, as I never assemble an engine using 30+ year old rubber/paper parts. I also split the center cases and renew the sealant to avoid oil leaks. Something like this might be a bolt in.....you have to pick it up in Florida. https://www.ebay.com/itm/275752965059?hash=item40342853c3:g:xQMAAOSwZTFkGCnX&amdata=enc%3AAQAIAAAA4HgJaoN%2BWA1gN%2BJDftCoWiR9vFdkDPz3aw3g0VP5YNXAhn%2BkR8WtoIiGox6Hfmy0p0H0BeR%2F5mYFuw48Ya0AzmPDR9Z3jmE1WCTCGpNdFKRM9GJTSDBKEph9qHldRFrReRnZ0vIdJa1cTCcagsgOtg5l5DsiwCoZWNVLw5kERSUakoSobv7Gck8gs5iBDqVxdW12lbtLLhfN6wSo5XcgYGDsetZapGSpbnHqSQhd9fjPFA%2FFVPV8ytSVvd7H31eNuX7ydbxBnd14zdFnRZZmXGXrjfQi0M37Qo4JS6eiOZUk%7Ctkp%3ABk9SR_qmq4KAYg I have a 5 speed bottom end with a bad pulley shaft I will give you if you pay shipping......it has all the parts you need to replace your broken parts - except you will need to get a 4 speed case if you want to use your transmission (or you need a 5 speed output shaft or gear set if you want to use the 5 speed case). |
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Title: Re: 87’ experienced a “Rapid Unscheduled Disassemb Post by Celeste on 05/09/23 at 05:03:15 I intend to do thru and post everything that looks like a point of failure for the benefit of riders. I will be waiting until I obtain another engine. |
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Title: Re: 87’ experienced a “Rapid Unscheduled Disassemb Post by Celeste on 05/09/23 at 07:05:12 There’s no Pin. It’s gone. Must be the point of failure. |
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Title: Re: 87’ experienced a “Rapid Unscheduled Disassemb Post by och on 05/09/23 at 16:42:56 That is crazy, but at least used Savage engines are not very expensive. |
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Title: Re: 87’ experienced a “Rapid Unscheduled Disassemb Post by justin_o_guy2 on 05/09/23 at 19:55:04 28242F470 wrote:
Dave showed us one that is Stuff like this is just insane: https://www.ebay.com/itm/385587538743?hash=item59c6ceeb37:g:SiEAAOSwurtkUX55&... |
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Title: Re: 87’ experienced a “Rapid Unscheduled Disassemb Post by och on 05/09/23 at 20:52:26 Someone needs to swap a KTM 690 engine into the Savage. ;D |
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Title: Re: 87’ experienced a “Rapid Unscheduled Disassemb Post by DragBikeMike on 05/10/23 at 03:45:35 You should take Dave up on his short block offer. Your 4-speed trans will bolt right in, plug-n-play. No need to worry about compatibility. I've run the 4-speed gearset in my 2016 case, no problem. Currently running a 4-speed gearset in a 1997 case, good-to-go. Strictly a bolt in job. Your current case is destroyed and unsalvageable. The crank and balance shaft were subjected to a violent collision, I personally would never use those components again. The rod bearing is almost certainly damaged and I imagine the balance shaft is most likely bent. You mentioned the pin is gone. You might wanna verify that. I check these pins with a gage I made. It's a very simple device. It has an aluminum sleeve that sticks out exactly 1/2". The pin should be below the inner surface of the crank a little less that 1/2", so if the pin is in there the gage will hit the pin. This is what my gage looks like. You could just bend a chunk of wire and have an equivalent tool. Being absolutely certain that your pin is missing will help all of us help you. |
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Title: Re: 87’ experienced a “Rapid Unscheduled Disassemb Post by DragBikeMike on 05/10/23 at 03:47:43 You use the tool like this. If the pin is in there, the tip of the tool will hit the pin. |
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Title: Re: 87’ experienced a “Rapid Unscheduled Disassemb Post by DragBikeMike on 05/10/23 at 03:49:22 I'm curious, were you riding the bike when the failure occurred? If so, was that a scary experience? Did it oil down the rear tire? |
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Title: Re: 87’ experienced a “Rapid Unscheduled Disassemb Post by Tocsik on 05/10/23 at 10:31:29 That is horrifically impressive. Makes my tank bracket failure look like a paper cut compared to losing a limb. Best of luck with whatever happens. |
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Title: Re: 87’ experienced a “Rapid Unscheduled Disassemb Post by Celeste on 05/10/23 at 19:01:00 35MPH, about to pull into a gas station. My not a very nice person definitely puckered up. I felt the bang, saw the metal fly out forward, immediately pulled in the clutch, and shut off the engine. Cruised to a stop and show the damage. The tire was oiled, but it stayed upright. It’s a challenger. |
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Title: Re: 87’ experienced a “Rapid Unscheduled Disassemb Post by DragBikeMike on 05/11/23 at 12:29:46 That sounds like a hair raising experience. I would really hate to have that happen on the freeway. It could have hurt you bad. Glad you didn't hit the pavement. Sure would be helpful if you could comment on your primary drive nut and also do a conclusive check on the balance drive pin. The absence of the drive pin sticking out of the crank does not conclusively prove the pin isn't in there. You need to stick something in the hole and see if the wire or whatever goes in more that 1/2". That info would help all of us and possibly prevent someone else from having a similar experience. You had to have removed that nut when you did your timing chain job. Did you possibly overtighten that nut? For instance, did you possibly mistake the nut for having normal right-hand threads and try to remove it by turning counter-clockwise? ......or....... Did you use an impact wrench (rattle wrench) on the nut? Please help us out Celeste. This is the nut in question. |
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Title: Re: 87’ experienced a “Rapid Unscheduled Disassemb Post by Celeste on 05/11/23 at 12:43:41 Beginning the full tear down right now. Will post video via Google drive to dive into what went wrong. |
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Title: Re: 87’ experienced a “Rapid Unscheduled Disassemb Post by Celeste on 05/11/23 at 15:25:24 The Tear down has so far not yielded insight into the failure. As you can see, the Cam Chain and sprocket are intact and still functioning. |
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Title: Re: 87’ experienced a “Rapid Unscheduled Disassemb Post by Celeste on 05/11/23 at 15:28:02 Digging a little Deeper. The Chain Sprocket shows no sign of failure or fatigue. It is safe to rule out the timing system as the issue. It should be noted at this time, the piston turns freely and does not hesitate. I am removing the engine out of the frame now and will be updating on findings. |
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Title: Re: 87’ experienced a “Rapid Unscheduled Disassemb Post by DragBikeMike on 05/12/23 at 03:05:31 Celeste, thanks very much for those photos. You have a very interesting failure. First time I have seen one that broke the balancer driven gear. That gear is broken right in half. Wow! It's great that your cam drive sprocket is not fractured, but it's also not so great. If you had a sprocket failure, at least we would know how to deal with it (i.e. pay attention to properly tightening the primary drive nut). But if your nut was properly tightened, and the drive pin is still in the drive gear, then what caused that driven gear to fail. If the driven gear failure is what caused the collision between the balancer and connecting rod, there really is no simple way to monitor things. To inspect the driven, gear you have to pull the whole engine apart. It doesn't lend itself to periodic inspection. There are six springs in that driven gear assembly. Every other spring should have a pin nested inside the spring. Those pins are hard stops intended to ensure that the balancer timing does not exceed a predetermined range (so the rod doesn't hit the balance weight). Are all three pins accounted for? Is it possible that someone in the past assembled the gear without those stop pins? What came first, the chicken or the egg. Did the driven gear fail and result in the collision, or did the drive pin or drive key fail and cause the collision which caused the driven gear failure? I can see from your picture that the primary drive nut has been beat up pretty good. Somebody was struggling with that nut to either get it loose or tighten it up. The sprocket looks OK, but who knows if it was replaced at some point in the past. Operation with the nut loose or with the sprocket fractured (or both) will work the drive pin loose over time. Can't wait to hear and see about your drive pin. If that drive pin is still in the drive gear, then it kinda looks like the driven gear failed and set the system up for a collision. Please keep those pictures comin. I really appreciate you sharing. |
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Title: Re: 87’ experienced a “Rapid Unscheduled Disassemb Post by Armen on 05/12/23 at 04:23:08 Celeste, Bummer about the blow up. So glad you weren’t injured. Thanks for sharing your info and pics. |
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Title: Re: 87’ experienced a “Rapid Unscheduled Disassemb Post by Celeste on 05/12/23 at 08:04:49 Mechanic Error? Perhaps. One thing is unusual. The Bearing between the crankcase and the counter balance gear was so tight it took two people loosen it. |
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Title: Re: 87’ experienced a “Rapid Unscheduled Disassemb Post by Celeste on 05/12/23 at 08:06:39 There is friction scoring and heat damage on this side of the bearing. Suggesting it was under tremendous stress and overheating. Is it possible I over tightened the bearing? |
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Title: Re: 87’ experienced a “Rapid Unscheduled Disassemb Post by Celeste on 05/12/23 at 08:09:02 The counter balance shaft itself is bent by 5 degrees horizontally and twisted by about 2 degrees. This has to be the original point of failure. |
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Title: Re: 87’ experienced a “Rapid Unscheduled Disassemb Post by Celeste on 05/12/23 at 08:10:03 Everything else on the crank looks nominal. Slight scoring, but overall looks salvageable. |
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Title: Re: 87’ experienced a “Rapid Unscheduled Disassemb Post by Celeste on 05/12/23 at 08:10:51 No bends, no cracks, no problems |
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Title: Re: 87’ experienced a “Rapid Unscheduled Disassemb Post by DragBikeMike on 05/13/23 at 02:07:49 This is a spectacular failure. The force involved must have been tremendous. It took a lot to bend that balance shaft. I wouldn't use that crank assembly; the rod really took a hit. I imagine the rod bearing is brinelled, and the bore in the rod is most likely out of round. The crank assembly is most likely twisted and/or spread. At least do runout checks. Can you remove the main bearing and get a look at the drive pin in the drive gear? Could you possibly take some pictures of the driven gear fracture? A few shots that look directly at the granular surface of the fracture. Straight at the fracture like the arrows show. |
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Title: Re: 87’ experienced a “Rapid Unscheduled Disassemb Post by Celeste on 05/13/23 at 12:11:02 Side 2 |
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Title: Re: 87’ experienced a “Rapid Unscheduled Disassemb Post by Celeste on 05/13/23 at 12:14:08 Broken piece one |
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Title: Re: 87’ experienced a “Rapid Unscheduled Disassemb Post by Celeste on 05/13/23 at 12:15:28 Broken Piece 2 |
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Title: Re: 87’ experienced a “Rapid Unscheduled Disassemb Post by Dave on 05/14/23 at 09:05:46 The replacement bottom end is in the mail to you and is scheduled to arrive on Monday. |
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Title: Re: 87’ experienced a “Rapid Unscheduled Disassemb Post by Celeste on 05/14/23 at 09:13:35 You are the best! Thank you so much! |
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Title: Re: 87’ experienced a “Rapid Unscheduled Disassemb Post by justin_o_guy2 on 05/14/23 at 09:25:39 DBM, I looked up Brinelled and still don't understand what you are getting at. |
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Title: Re: 87’ experienced a “Rapid Unscheduled Disassemb Post by ThumperPaul on 05/14/23 at 14:09:25 Glad you weren’t hurt! This thread is exceptional Savage forensic science! You guys are phenomenal! Git ‘er dun! |
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Title: Re: 87’ experienced a “Rapid Unscheduled Disassemb Post by DragBikeMike on 05/14/23 at 15:18:36 Celeste, thanks so much for posting the photos of the broken gear. I wanted to see if there was any evidence of crack propagation. If this was a fatigue failure, there should be evidence of crack propagation and wear in the fine tissues of the break. There are a few areas that might be evidence of crack propagation and/or wear, but I am not a metallurgist or materials engineer. It would have to be examined with magnification by an expert. I have seen many fractures that were caused by fatigue where the surfaces exhibited wear and rounded edges. The cracks start in a corner or stress riser and propagate rather slowly at first. As the component is subjected to cyclic loads, the crack continues to propagate, which reduces the cross section of the area subjected to the load. The reduction in area results in more stress which accelerates the rate of propagation. The area that has already cracked wears as the part is continually subjected to the cyclic load. Many times, the edges become rounded, probably due to chipping. I really can't tell from your pictures, but there are a few suspect areas. For instance, the areas circled in yellow could be indications of propagation and wear. |
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Title: Re: 87’ experienced a “Rapid Unscheduled Disassemb Post by DragBikeMike on 05/14/23 at 15:20:50 But this surface simply looks like a clean break, no propagation, just snap and done. You can see the sharp corner in the notch for the damper spring, but I really don't see any evidence of wear adjacent to that corner. Again, without magnification or expertise, I'm really just speculating. |
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Title: Re: 87’ experienced a “Rapid Unscheduled Disassemb Post by DragBikeMike on 05/14/23 at 15:26:57 You can see from your photo of the bearing, that it was probably a clean break. That would be consistent with a bearing that was subjected to that heavy shaft being bent almost instantaneously. I've seen a lot of failed ball bearings, but have never seen one with an inner race that broke off. Clean break, snap. |
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Title: Re: 87’ experienced a “Rapid Unscheduled Disassemb Post by DragBikeMike on 05/14/23 at 15:36:57 Justin, when you transmit an impact through the rolling elements of a ball or roller bearing, there is a good chance you will put dents in the inner and/or outer races. The ball or roller has an infinitely small contact point. Smack it with a hammer and it makes a dent. Now the ball or roller has to roll over the dent, and the bearing is destroyed. That damage is referred to as "brinelling". Brinelling is why you never install a ball bearing by pounding on the inner race such that the force is transmitted through the balls to the outer race, or vice versa. Installing a bearing on a shaft, only push on the inner race. Installing a bearing in a housing or case, only push on the outer race. Never allow the force to be transmitted through the rolling elements. |
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Title: Re: 87’ experienced a “Rapid Unscheduled Disassemb Post by DragBikeMike on 05/14/23 at 16:06:45 I am very concerned about these balancer failures. Imagine how things could have gone if Celeste was rippin down the freeway at 70 mph....or worse yet....trying to break the LSR. That balance shaft packs a ton of energy. Smacking it with a connecting rod and having the whole shiteree go flyin out the front of the engine could be physically painful. That's why I keep asking questions and requesting photos. I want to understand this failure because I'm selfish. I want to keep my skin attached, and kiss my wife at the end of each ride. If these are random failures that simply occur for no reason, then I don't wanna be riding an LS650. On the other hand, if these are failures that can be explained, like the drive pin workin loose because there's no pinch on the gear, then it's a manageable condition. Never overtighten the primary nut. Inspect the cam drive sprocket periodically. Check the drive pin with a gage every time the cylinder is removed. Etc., etc., etc..... Celeste, please, can you remove that main bearing and inspect the drive gear. Is the pin in the gear or not? I know you previously stated that the pin is missing, but I get the feeling that you said that because you didn't see the pin sticking out of the crank. When things are correct, that pin doesn't stick out. It should be situated a little less than 1/2" in the hole. If the pin is missing, we need to figure out why. Was the primary nut loose during this particular failure? Was the primary nut loose for an extended period during some prior operating period? During prior operation, was the engine operated for an extended period of time with a fractured cam drive sprocket? I think operating with insufficient pinch on that balancer drive gear allows the cyclic loading to work the drive pin loose. Suzuki should have made this thing with a step in the bore in the crank. That way, even if the pin works loose, it can't disengage and fall out. Celeste, if your drive pin is still in there, then we need to focus on other possibilities. Somehow, the balancer timing got thrown off. That could be due to a key failure (driven gear), cushion spring stops missing, balancer timing incorrect to begin with (seems very unlikely), fatigue failure of the driven gear, catastrophic failure of a balancer bearing. Any other ideas? |
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Title: Re: 87’ experienced a “Rapid Unscheduled Disassemb Post by justin_o_guy2 on 05/14/23 at 19:40:28 Understood! Thank You very much. |
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Title: Re: 87’ experienced a “Rapid Unscheduled Disassemb Post by Ruttly on 05/15/23 at 09:03:34 Ok , the nut was over tightened causing cam chain sprocket to crack/shatter. Drive pin for counter balancer shifted hit the balancer. Causing the eruption of cases,parts & oil. To me and only going by these photos the rest of the carnage was caused at time of sprocket collapsing. Curious of rpm at time of failure , could help explaining other damages. I had made same mistake tightening the nut ,but I heard it crack. Replaced it and was more careful with second install. The sprocket is fragile and cheaply made. If I knew about these failures at the time of build I would have welded that pin to the crank half. Easy to make that mistake but very costly consequences. Good luck & glad you weren’t injured. |
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Title: Re: 87’ experienced a “Rapid Unscheduled Disassemb Post by Celeste on 05/15/23 at 13:06:54 Nada, video coming a in a few minutes. |
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Title: Re: 87’ experienced a “Rapid Unscheduled Disassemb Post by justin_o_guy2 on 05/15/23 at 20:16:24 Now I'm worried. My 05 that I bought back from insurance suffered a sudden stop on a car,at 45, the forks snapped off and the end of one took a chunk out of the lower front of the case. I don't see any signs of oil,.. But I also have been in the cam, the clutch, and I used my impact. But I was not seeing how much I could tighten.. But it's Easy to get seventy foot pounds with a quick blip. I don't Know if I should trust that motor. It's got my cam in it. It's not the best one, don't remember which it is. |
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Title: Re: 87’ experienced a “Rapid Unscheduled Disassemb Post by DragBikeMike on 05/18/23 at 03:17:56 5/15/23 "Nada, video coming a in a few minutes." What did you find Celeste? |
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Title: Re: 87’ experienced a “Rapid Unscheduled Disassemb Post by Dave on 06/20/23 at 04:01:00 Any updates on the rebuild? :-/ |
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Title: Re: 87’ experienced a “Rapid Unscheduled Disassemb Post by zevenenergie on 06/20/23 at 07:09:02 Wow, thats some damage indeed. :o You need very coarse polishing compound to buff that, out. I,m happy that your fine. Oil on the rear tire in a corner...Brrrr Things could have gone side way,s. |
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Title: Re: 87’ experienced a “Rapid Unscheduled Disassemb Post by Dave on 08/09/23 at 04:46:07 Celeste was last on the forum 6/19........wonder if the rebuild project ever got completed? |
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Title: Re: 87’ experienced a “Rapid Unscheduled Disassemb Post by Celeste on 08/09/23 at 16:19:57 Hey everyone. It’s been a bit. Life got crazy. It’s together, running, albeit poorly. It has poor performance, I installed a 97 Magneto… on an 87 Savage. Pretty sure that lead to it being Fubar. |
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Title: Re: 87’ experienced a “Rapid Unscheduled Disassemb Post by verslagen1 on 08/09/23 at 22:20:13 1A3C353C2A2D3C7734303D37303E312D590 wrote:
Here's the problem, the 97 rotor has different ignition timing then a 87. Find yourself a 89 or earlier rotor or put a CDI from a 96 or later and you'll be fine. BTW; the 96 or later CDI takes a different plug. |
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Title: Re: 87’ experienced a “Rapid Unscheduled Disassemb Post by DragBikeMike on 08/09/23 at 23:10:57 Celeste, it would be really great if you could fill us all in on what exactly you found in there when you disassembled your engine. Glad you got it runnin again. The alternator rotor swap should be a walk in the park. |
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