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/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> The Cafe >> Picking the best pistol caliber /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1680700491 Message started by Oldfeller--FSO on 04/05/23 at 06:14:51 |
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Title: Picking the best pistol caliber Post by Oldfeller--FSO on 04/05/23 at 06:14:51 I am buying a police trade in Glock 22 on the cheap. My state just did away with a lot of the pistol purchase permit bullshite, so I can order anywhere on line and just get it shipped in to my local gun store. This was a long term researched choice for me. I have a lot of freedom to chose as I have reloading and casting skills out the wazoo. And I like to cheat too, a lot. I was tempted by a long slide Glock format. I wanted a 10mm bullet because they simply do meat better than 9mm bullets when buying jacketed. Plus, cast lead bullets for 9mm suck, while 10mm truncated cone cast lead bullet designs don't suck near as badly. I was prone to try to overcome the 9mm craze as historically you had to shoot somebody 3 times with a 9mm to get them to lie down quietly. This difference has dropped by mebbe one shot recently due to better bullets, but these better bullets were actually developed for the 40 cal FBI criteria, and surprise surprise the bullets still work better in 40 (10mm) than they do in 9mm. Cheat list: A 9mm carries 2 extra rounds compared to a 40 caliber. Buy an aftermarket magazine floor plate and pick up a round or two. Or, simply ignore the issue as if you shoot more than 3 times you are a murderous crazy person in the modern liberal DA's eyes. My cheat was a 30 round extended mag for any extra rounds needed upon reloading, should you ever had the pressing need to reload. Note to self: getting into a running slug slinging contest should always be avoidable. I can't see pistol sights any more and I shoot poorly now-a-days. Research leads to the fact that you really need a flashlight on your gun so you can see who/what you are shooting at night. A flashlight laser combo costs no more than the plain flashlight. That little green laser dot takes care of all the shooting poorly issues, simply put the green dot center of mass over the spine. The flashlight beam naturally centers your shots in reflex shooting. Pistols recoil too abruptly and are too much for old people to use effectively. I shoot a lot of lead bullets. 175 grain cast bullets given a layer of light blue powder coating really don't lead at all and they work well with Glock polygonal rifling. The main trick is to lower the velocity to what you can tolerate, accurately. Then practice practice practice ...... practice double taps and triple taps and shoot enough rounds monthly so you don't notice the recoil. Use the stock open sights in practice. This should be self explanatory. Lasers and lights run off batteries and batteries go flat when you least expect it. Open sights always work. Think of the green dot as Casper the Friendly Ghost that sometimes shows up over your front sight. Last cheat, velocity for free I needed to get past recoil and accuracy issues. I also needed a way to shoot up old ammo and failed experiments. I bought a stainless steel "cut rifling" barrel for my gun in a 6" long format. Yes, it sticks out in the air in front of the gun. But I pick up a instant free 100fps on all loads shot and I totally change the recoil characteristics of the gun getting rid of the sharp recoil upward snap. |
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Title: Re: Picking the best pistol caliber Post by justin_o_guy2 on 04/05/23 at 09:51:12 bought a stainless steel "cut rifling" barrel for my gun in a 6" long format. Yes, it sticks out in the air in front of the gun. But I pick up a instant free 100fps That is the kinda thinking that makes me say Why didn't I think of that? What is the blue powder that keeps your lead out of the grooves? Does it Hafta be stainless? |
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Title: Re: Picking the best pistol caliber Post by MMRanch on 04/05/23 at 18:51:45 Hi Buddy I was staying with the 32 cal. so I don't shoot through the first target and into something "unintended" on the other side. I don't want any trouble with a local DA either. |
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Title: Re: Picking the best pistol caliber Post by Oldfeller--FSO on 04/06/23 at 05:31:40 Let me answer Justin's questions first, What is the blue stuff? It is Ford light blue powder coating. A fine polymer powder is applied to a bunch of bullets, then they get put butt down on a sheet of parchment paper on a cookie sheet and cooked at 250o for a half an hour. The powder melts and fuses into a glossy smooth coverage of polymer "paint" that is quite strong and able to survive the rifling trip down the barrel and not leak any gas. It is so strong it can literally clean the copper out of a barrel if you fire enough of them down the tube. Powder coat is strong and tenacious, I have pulled expanded bullets out of sand that still had the powder coat in place. Compared to putting grease in lube grooves it is more effective. I have a small tumbler that I just dump dry bullets into and add some powder. 10 minutes of tumbling and all the bullets are completely evenly coated and ready for the oven. I pick mine up one at a time with intentionally powder coated finger tips, this works great. Just remember to wash your hands before touching anything else once you got your bullets on the cookie sheet. "Grease in groove" is expensive as the lubriciser equipment is very pricey and the time involved in using a bullet lubriciser is large. Lots of guys "jumble pack" their powder coat bullets and just carefully dump them out on the parchment paper trusting their sizing die to smooth the mess out that is left from breaking the mass apart. Me I stick with picking each bullet up and putting them down butt first on the cookie sheet so they look good and lack the pits in the coating where the stuck together bullets were joined up. Does it Hafta be stainless? No, it does not. Glock polygonal rifling has always been somewhat problematical with grease lubed cast lead bullets, and I have a lot of older grease lubed rounds I need to shoot up. A normally rifled Glock replacement barrel is often stainless, as it is both a marketing point and a cost savings for the manufacturer because you don't have to apply a corrosion resistant finish to the barrel to keep it from rusting. |
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Title: Re: Picking the best pistol caliber Post by Oldfeller--FSO on 04/06/23 at 05:41:43 MM, I own a 32 caliber very small concealed carry gun. I would plan to shoot the perp 3-4 times to just to make sure they stay down. Or double tap them and accidentally punkin bust them on the third shot accidentally when they folded up over the first two center of mass hits and they accidentally presented you with the top of their head for a third shot. Light guns are not nearly as effective has heavier guns. You need to look on Youtube for clear gel tests on your particular 32 caliber gun. The only bullet that routinely penetrated to the FBI 12" minimum was a full jacketed Fiocci brand +P round in 32 acp. They call them durn thangs "mouse guns" for a reason. They are only one shot kills on mouse sized targets and honestly they just piss everything else off when you shoot it at them. |
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Title: Re: Picking the best pistol caliber Post by youzguyz on 04/07/23 at 05:34:24 I prefer 9mm hollow point as a defense round. Not horribly expensive. Enough stopping power for me, and hollow point keeps it from going through to something else.. hopefully. And, it fits all my weapons except the shotgun. Even this oddity. HEY.. it fits in a saddle bag!!! |
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Title: Re: Picking the best pistol caliber Post by Oldfeller--FSO on 04/07/23 at 08:44:13 KelTek Sub 2000 over the years has collected some user flack for being a "heavy spring straight blow back design" that women and old people can have a hard time racking it up for the first shot. It also is somewhat rough on thin women because the "blow back whack" is a girl shoulder eating thing. You own a Sub2000, what is your take on this issue as you get older? For example, I have several over-sprung auto pistols from 20 years ago that I simply cannot rack the slide any longer. I was a lot stronger in forearm grip strength back then. I have a couple of these that I have put back the stock wimpy springs in order to maintain "usability". ================================= Physical training vs tuning the gun. A stock Glock has a 5.5 pound "safety trigger". This is to stop accidental discharges due to over-excited rookie cops holding their finger on the trigger during stressful situations. You can tune away at this rough trigger pull, or else exercise your body to overcome it. You are supposed to grip the Glock grip fairly hard with your right hand and cover wrap your left fist around it as you swing the gun up to pick up your sight picture. Doing this routinely then the trigger finger has to add less force to supply the addition force to fire the gun. It is also noted that the firm double wrapped grip makes the gun steadier during squeeze off. This makes for a smoother follow up shot and for better loading action as having a "limp wrist" is bad for extraction and round chamber & loading as it wastes some of the recoil energy that the semi auto action depends upon. So, I am using the just installed laser as a 'jerk detector" while I rigorously dry fire the stock police Glock to build up my weakened old man arm and shoulder muscles. Side benefit is that the stock Glock smooths out some after 500 dry firings. (or I got stronger, you take your pick) My wife hates me dry firing with a laser as a jerk detector --- her cats are going nuts over the green laser beam moving around the house. She as 3 new cats and they are not used to the laser trick. They are fighting each other to get to the green dot and I find that sorta funny. She doesn't. Legal issues with a heavily modified gun. Expect flack from liberal DA's with something to prove. Any slight issues will get blamed on the extensively modified gun and your bloodthirsty gun nut nature. If I ever felt the need to carry a gun seriously, my gun would go back to a completely stock police trade in appearance. No long magazine, no long barrel ...... |
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Title: Re: Picking the best pistol caliber Post by youzguyz on 04/07/23 at 09:11:42 56757D7F7C75757C6B190 wrote:
Well.. I ain't all THAT old.. only 68. >:( ;D It is not a problem for me, but I can see what it could be for those without the arm strength. It does take a good solid tug, and you have to pull it ALL the way back. Here is picture of the weapon unfolded. That big knob to the left of the grip is the handle for racking in a round. |
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Title: Re: Picking the best pistol caliber Post by Oldfeller--FSO on 04/07/23 at 10:17:11 Dirty tricks using a pistol mounted laser. This is just me being me. There are people like me on YouTube, lots of them. You can watch some avowed anti-laser guys convert themselves in real time ...... What did they (and me) so quickly learn? You can easily shoot repeatedly and fairly accurately from the hip while walking slowly. You can throw your body behind some cover, then reach under or around or awkwardly up over your cover to shoot back at your BG accurately. You don't have to have a good sight picture. You don't even need to be able to see your gun. You can even shoot accurately with your gun arm partially trapped under your fallen body if your wrist can still move the gun around. ;) ...... if you can see the green dot and your target you are good to go ...... Laser equipped guns are creating whole new shooting classifications at shooting tournaments. Hey dudes !!! I do not need to be able to see my sights through my progressive line bifocal glasses any longer. Outside at night I can shoot you easily 100 yards away from me. I can shoot you better at night than in the daytime. Bright sunshine is what really narrows down them shooting ranges. If you have properly adjusted open sights you can instantly do a back check on both your laser and your open sights (the dot floats right behind and slightly below the front sight). Both laser and hard sights must both be right if you see this systems congruence. If your BG has a big protruding pot belly, then simply take your time and carefully shoot him in the nuts and he will never even see it coming ....... That old crip sitting in the wheel chair with a light blanket on his lap is FAR FAR FAR more dangerous than you think ......... |
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Title: Re: Picking the best pistol caliber Post by justin_o_guy2 on 04/07/23 at 18:35:51 Thanks for the info,, very interesting. Recently got a Bersa tpr9c and I hope to run enough through it to make reloading reasonable. Looking at the rifling,it didn't impress me with it's Crisp edges,,but the reviews were good.. Ordered it before I held one. |
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Title: Re: Picking the best pistol caliber Post by MMRanch on 04/07/23 at 19:57:22 The big thing wrong with the Sub2000 is that a person can't shoot it with the headphone type ear protection . Thank goodness for the inside the ear protectors. One of my Mags is a 44 round that doubles the weight of the package when loaded. I put my laser on the bottom rail out in front of the handguard and it works just fine. There is something I tried on the Sub2000 that didn't work. I reloaded some lead projectiles for it , they tumbled instead of spin. My best guess is that : Keltec put a micro grove barrel on it that doesn't grip the projectile good enough , so I found 500 rd box of plated truncated w/flat point that are super easy to hollow point with my case trimming tool with a 3/16" drill bit mounted in it. |
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Title: Re: Picking the best pistol caliber Post by Oldfeller--FSO on 04/08/23 at 00:39:37 MM, Why no headphone style muffs on the S2000? Is it the slide knob flying back and forth attached to the hunk of steel breech blow back mass? Or is it the fact you simply have to get down that low just to get down to the sights? Cast you up some more lead bullets, buy some powder coat (Harbor Freight sells it fairly cheap in Harbor Freight "red" for your experiment) and bake you up some polymer jacketed (ie cheap cast lead slugs). My thought is that your raw lead slugs are really quite undersized to the Kel Tek chamber/throat/rifling. Powder coat adds .002" to your bullets and if they chamber good you do not really need to size them down (if the loaded round passes the plunk test) then your throat takes care of all that sizing upon firing. Powder coat is tough enough to make your rifling connection for you just dandy. Shoot a couple of dozen and look down your bore to see some really clean rifling. I mean really clean rifling, all the trash out of them tiny corners and even the copper fouling mostly all removed ....... Warning, you will occasionally need a +.001" to +.002" LEE push through sizer if you have to size your bullets down a bit to fix a powder coat sag, dribble or run issue. I gave up and just sized them all to .4015" as I could size them before loading them quicker than plunk testing and fixing the failure noses with a cordless drill and a file. Almost all of my rounds would still plunk after powder coating in my Glock chamber (I pop my barrel out or use a spare barrel as my plunk tester) and I count upon any minor drag would not survive being slam loaded by the blow back action of the Kel Tec Sub 2000. Funny thing about the Sub2000, it will fire when slightly out of full battery. Actually, the action mass is enough to hold it shut good enough until case pressure drops after firing so whatever the gun considers "good enough" to allow the primer strike is what you are really dealing with. |
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Title: Re: Picking the best pistol caliber Post by Oldfeller--FSO on 04/08/23 at 04:16:39 Breaking in a holster queen My Glock 22 gen 4 was never dry fired or cycled or shot enough to even break in the parts that are intended by Glock to be broken in. My gun hit a hard plastic duty holster and it got carried around by somebody who was not interested in shooting it. My gun was not ever lubricated at all. Not even the two mini drops it takes to lube the slide to steel inserts nor the finger tip oil "wipe" it takes to lube the racking disengagement ramp insert. My gun was never cleaned because it never got dirty. I found Glock had provided a bore brush (found with completely virgin white nylon bristles) in the plastic box along with the proof firings, paperwork, instructions manual and a pamphlet of fashionable Glock hats and other attire. =================================== In dry firing the gun repeatedly to get my forearms and shoulders built back up to snuff I finally got the trigger system operationally all broken in. Did research and found a lot of experts saying you don't want to spend a lot of money on lots of trick aftermarket parts as you wind up taking a lot of them back off later on due to "various issues". For example I found there are inherent elevation issues with the laser that come from it hanging an inch and a quarter under the bore center line. Canting the gun off vertical has always shows up in the laser to open sights relationship. These projection errors multiply out by the increasing distance to the target. With my sight picture being perfect on the open sights, the laser drops down to hide behind the front post at short distances then rising to "floating above the front sight" at normal longer engagement ranges. The solution to all of this is to simply adjust the laser to be parallel to the bore axis and to train your mind that the laser dot is always an inch and a quarter below point of impact. Once you accept what reality is, it all becomes simple and range really doesn't matter to the laser any longer. ;D ....... So, simply focus on the BG's spine for your side to side aiming point and hold to "center of mass" for the vertical. Use the standard open sights by preference unless you jest plain gotta use the laser. The laser will now hold within six inches of real, no matter how you hold it. |
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Title: Re: Picking the best pistol caliber Post by Oldfeller--FSO on 04/09/23 at 05:43:00 So, focusing on the spine totally is a good thing for fixing the "laser vs open sights" issues. However, modern hollow point bullets don't always reach the spine with real bone penetrating power as the bullet expansion has been carefully tuned to fall within the factory metered FBI 12"-16" minimum/maximum penetration levels. Ammo factories and police departments really don't want lawsuits from over penetration. HOWEVER, my standard cast lead practice ammo (even rounds that were made all soft and cuddly on purpose for teaching my daughter how to shoot well) will penetrate that deep and still break the spine bones. Cast lead penetrates really really well. And old people just plain like soft and cuddly shooting as opposed to jacketed expansion harsh type shooting. Let's talk about what you have got left to do the job after going through the 14" of the soft stuff. Historically, a cast 45 caliber pistol bullet did the job at circa 850 fps. Historically, a military FMJ 45acp hardball bullet did the job at 850 fps. Both weighed around 230-250 grains of lead mass. They did the job by penetrating --- and they did routinely exit the BG's back while doing this. Now you are in the world of well known 10mm cast lead wide meplat based hunting bullet technology so we will go run by those rules.for a bit. ;) ..... let's go consult the loading manuals Oh yes, I can do this easily with what I have on hand ........ ...... as a matter of fact I already have some hundreds of loaded rounds on hand that were built years and years ago ...... as cheap cast lead practice ammo. |
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Title: Re: Picking the best pistol caliber Post by Oldfeller--FSO on 04/10/23 at 17:44:39 So, what else is was discovered new today? 30 round 40 S&W magazines are beyond my finger ability to load past half way. I can't finish loading a 15 round mag all the way either. I ordered a simple Glock magazine push device to push the round down far enough to slide in the next one. This is a $8 piece of plastic sleeve looking thing that slides over the mag lip end and pushes the slide/rounds down and holds it there while you put in the next round. I do not remember having a hard time simply loading Glock 22 mags -- my body has gotten all messed up and weak on me. >:( |
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Title: Re: Picking the best pistol caliber Post by justin_o_guy2 on 04/11/23 at 05:17:12 Bodies can be quite treacherous. I got sent to the er by the blasted ENT . He said my BP was just too high. After three days in ICU and two more on a regular floor I went home. That was just a Coupla weeks ago and I'm having a real problem with staying awake and the last day it's Not responding to the meds right.. Might have to go back. The Bersa magazine is stiff. Loading the first round wasn't Easy, I had to take a break to get number nine to 13 . Bought a loader and it makes it So much easier. Not a round through it yet. Just haven't felt like walking out behind the shop and setting up targets. |
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Title: Re: Picking the best pistol caliber Post by Oldfeller--FSO on 04/11/23 at 12:25:33 This sux, not having finger and hand strength enough to load a silly magazine ...... I now have loaders for .223 AR magazines, 350 Legend AR magazines, Glock 22 magazines and Beretta 96 magazines. |
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Title: Re: Picking the best pistol caliber Post by justin_o_guy2 on 04/12/23 at 15:40:03 You don't Hafta have a cheater for the River 22 pistol mags,but holding that little button down while you feed ten rounds down it gets Old.. And loaders make it faster, so I'm glad to have them, but I would sure like to be able to shove them in by hand. I had a Mossin Nagant I sold because I simply couldn't load it in under twenty minutes. PissedMeOff.. |
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Title: Re: Picking the best pistol caliber Post by Oldfeller--FSO on 04/14/23 at 09:58:21 I have a barrel that sticks out the front of the gun for an inch and a half. I have an extended magazine that sticks out the bottom of the gun for 3 and a quarter inches. This gives me like 2-3 pounds of extra rotational & anti-recoil mass that means my gun is VERY STABLE to hold and to shoot, with the firing recoil and muzzle flip being muted to a very great degree. It shoots "touching clusters" at 15 yards and very tight 6" wide groupings at 25 yards with a good double hand grip. There is no doubt that this gun can shoot better than I can. Even the laser "dot wiggle" is noticeably reduced. And with 27 rounds in the long magazine and another one sitting in the chamber ready to go, well, I have rifles that do not do near as many stored rounds that are sitting there all ready to go. |
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Title: Re: Picking the best pistol caliber Post by justin_o_guy2 on 04/14/23 at 11:10:11 Sounds like you are set up nicely.. |
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Title: Re: Picking the best pistol caliber Post by Oldfeller--FSO on 04/17/23 at 21:24:41 Lastly, my Glock 22 with laser is a cat summoner par excellence. Turn on the laser with your hand over it so no light escapes and 2-3 cats will be at your feet about this fast. The oscillator in the laser makes a noise cats can hear, and chasing the green dot is a thing that the boy cats do dearly love to do. My wife can't find her lazy boys at meal time, or gets simply gets concerned that they might have gotten outside ..... she can simply punch the laser button and watch them magically appear instantly. ;) |
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Title: Re: Picking the best pistol caliber Post by verslagen1 on 04/18/23 at 08:27:48 don't give them a treat every time they are called this way or they'll show up expecting food alla pavlov's dogs. and most likely if you never again let chase the little green rascal, they'll stop coming. |
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Title: Re: Picking the best pistol caliber Post by MMRanch on 04/23/23 at 17:31:57 Sorry for the delay Oldfeller When ya put your head down to see the sights ... the headphones hit the stock before your eye gets to the sights . But Its easily good with the "in the ear" type plugs. Its an amazingly accurate firearm with the military type sights. Its also amazingly light to carry with the 17 round clip loaded with 10 rounds. .................. There is a guy that could be your twin on "YouTube" doing shows with black powder revolvers. |
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Title: Re: Picking the best pistol caliber Post by Oldfeller--FSO on 04/23/23 at 19:56:52 Mike, The black powder dude is younger, prettier and nicer than I am ...... |
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Title: Re: Picking the best pistol caliber Post by MMRanch on 04/25/23 at 20:54:49 The black powder dude is younger, prettier and nicer than I am :-? Well , I remember when you were Younger , prettier and smile-er . ;D Well All except the prettier part ! ::) I thought you had started making youtube videos . Most of the time my 5 shot 2.5" - 22 Mag. rides in my front pocket and a speed loader in the other pocket. Its the top-brake type and looks like a little Schofield , but I have the target grips on it . check this out : https://northamericanarms.com/ballistics/ The "YouTube" guys seem to like the Federal Punch ammo The Black Widow is the closest with a 2" barrel. At 1300fps , I don't feel under gun-ed quite so much. |
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Title: Re: Picking the best pistol caliber Post by Oldfeller--FSO on 04/27/23 at 06:41:17 Glock pistols have lots of competitors now-a-days. Glock itself has an aftermarket of a sheer size that is amazing to me --- it is HUGE and is also being fed by the "build your own gun" guys as all of these self-build clones are patterned after the Glock. Glock's copycat aftermarket is easily bigger than the current Glock Consumer market by 2-3x right now. Timney Triggers recently just did a Glock drop in trigger that is drastically much more basic (simpler) and much much better than any stock Glock trigger as far as the slow take up, hard pull and very high break poundage characteristics of the stock trigger go. Glock is now getting heat on all the forums for "30 years of not listening to their customers" and being a "no innovating here" company. From all the strident noise from the Glock Perfection boys you would think that Glock just got goosed in the butt by a red hot poker --- "not reactive" isn't what Glock fans are .... that is for sure. They all jumped WAY up high in the air, grabbed their buns and hollered real loud jest fine, thank you very much. Hurts, doesn't it? :o ::) However, the Glock Perfection factory boys still haven't come out with any real changes to the stock Glock trigger, nor have they come out with a serious Timney Trigger aftermarket competitor product of their very own. Glock has tried this past year, but failed to change anything much and has further damaged their "Glock Perfection" image as their last "new performance trigger" was more of the same sluggish take up hard wall stuff. Fixing things, not so much. So now Glock is flat out catching shite all over the place ........ Glock is the Intel of the gun world now, i.e. the falling down, embarrassing "ex-standard". Part of all of this mess is the heavy police use of the stock Glock product. Cops and legal beagles all over want a hard walled over 5 pound pull that is somewhat slow to take up the trigger slack, i.e. stiff hard long pull trigger for "rookie cop fail free" safety and general liability reasons. The list of "out of the box" things Glock needs to improve immediately for general public consumer use is the trigger system, the slide stop release and the stock plastic sights. Add to this list they are currently 3 rounds off the mark for 9mm ammo carry capacity ...... ================================= My wife will likely only pick up my Glock 22 only in a very high stress situation, so my Glock trigger stays stock. I can deal with the stock Glock trigger, and she will never ever get close to having the experience level to deal with any lighter of a trigger pull ........ :P |
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Title: Re: Picking the best pistol caliber Post by Oldfeller--FSO on 04/27/23 at 08:52:30 One month further in does make a lot of difference. Glock has now closely copied the Timney Trigger and is shipping it as their new newest Glock performance trigger. They can do this at will because the Timney is just a modification of a Glock patented trigger (remember please, Glock patents have aged out and expired all around) so look for others to do a fairly direct copy the Timney (or a copy of the new newest Glock trigger as the case may be). I bet this new newest trigger will become the standard commercial released Glock stock trigger for Glock Gen 6 which is upcoming this year. I bet Glock does their copied Timney clone as their Gen 6 standard commercial trigger and then Glock has to have a brand new part number series for a POLICE STANDARD GUN which will have the current stiff, long pull, high break wall style Glock safety trigger like what they have now ......... ;) ........ you DO have multiple markets with vastly different requirements, after all. |
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Title: Re: Picking the best pistol caliber Post by MMRanch on 04/28/23 at 18:10:11 All the Glock pistols I've seen are too large to put in my pocket and forget I have them till the need for a firearm comes up. The last thing I shot was a Carpenter-Bee that just insisted in bussing 3 to 4 feet away from me repeatedly , the "Dern-Thing" ! I've got a "Black Diamond" seven shot 9mm that is small enough to carry and a 5-shot J frame air-weight. I carry them in the winter when folks are dressed thicker. I've got belt holsters that draw them close to the body and could wear them in the summer with a loose shirt unbuttoned , or a vest. But the little pocket pistols are so much easier. One of my carry options is a Ruger LCP in a pocket holster and I've got a LCP-II that is the 22LR twin for the 380 LCP. Ya'll know the CCI Stinger type ammo turn the 22LR into a "No-Joke" item against summer wear clothing . So how do you fellers carry those bigger size heavy pistols when winter is over ? :-? |
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Title: Re: Picking the best pistol caliber Post by Oldfeller--FSO on 04/29/23 at 07:13:37 I have had one of the first issued concealed carry permits in NC and the only use I got out of it was being ACTIVELY HARASSED by the local sheriff deputies and base MPs who would routinely (automatically) run my plate as I went down the road then pulled me over to see if I was carrying a gun in some sort of an illegal fashion. The street level people thought that was what they were supposed to do ....... their system had "alert flagged" me with a new code they did not even know what it meant, so they pulled me and asked to search me and my car. Things went downhill from there as they had no warrant and had no probable cause other than their own system errors. Fortunately, I never had a gun with me at the time. This BS got old on the second run through and I protested loudly and then relinquished by carry permit as a form of protest (it was the only real way to completely stop the system flag thing). Right now in my state I can open carry on my belt without permit or nagging flags but unless I had some known bad situation I would not do that. |
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Title: Re: Picking the best pistol caliber Post by MMRanch on 04/29/23 at 21:27:37 Even with a State Concealed Carry permit , I'm not allowed to carry on the military's bases , that would require a Federal Permit. So yea , the MP's had a real reason. But The State permit is a completely difference situation . In the Class I took , we learned the places we are not allowed to carry , like State Building , bars and restaurants that serve alcohol , county courthouses , school buildings and places that are posted with the "no firearms allowed" sign. I was the second one in my county to get a permit and have never had a problem . One time I got pulled over for doing 41 in a 30 zone and the officer ask me to let him hold my pistol while he wrote a warning ticket but then handed it back after telling me to "slow down". My TN permit is good in NC and most other states other than up in part of Yankee-Ville and California . But still Concealed Carry doesn't raise any eyebrows as long as the concealed part works , and so the small pocket pistol or "J frame" size in a good close-fitting belt holster works good for me. If ya never go out of your state then it don't really matter anyway ! :) |
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Title: Re: Picking the best pistol caliber Post by Savard 05 on 05/01/23 at 11:22:46 .38 357 |
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Title: Re: Picking the best pistol caliber Post by Oldfeller--FSO on 05/01/23 at 14:25:08 Savard, What case and what gun does your .357" slug go into? |
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Title: Re: Picking the best pistol caliber Post by Oldfeller--FSO on 05/07/23 at 10:01:03 Folks at the range were oggling at my Glock with the extra length barrel. One Glock carrier was saying that his 9mm was more gun than mine with him shooting fancy copper bullets. My my my, his copper slugs move out so much faster than standard 9mm slugs, but they are so much slower than my .401" diameter cast lead slugs from my other tweeked "no muzzle rise no recoil" Glock 40 caliber pistol. MM knows the gun, I like to cheat a little bit, don't I .... ;D ??? |
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Title: Re: Picking the best pistol caliber Post by justin_o_guy2 on 05/07/23 at 17:49:29 41626A686B62626B7C0E0 wrote:
So, if I'm understanding this, the cops used their position to pull yerass over, because they could.. The cops Actually pulling you over didn't Know that the results of running your plate meant? Sounds like someone was engaging in Official Oppression. |
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Title: Re: Picking the best pistol caliber Post by MMRanch on 05/07/23 at 18:27:31 Yea , OldFeller I remember a fancy pistol you had . I was thinking it was a 45 necked down to 40 cal. I remember thinking it's a little on the Large side for carrying ?? Oldfeller if you ever shot someone with that WildCat round then, the local DA would have you for lunch. And , Lord help ya if someone is standing behind your original target ... maybe more than one someone standing behind your original target ! I hope your carry gun is one that only enters and not exits , preferably one that explodes as or after entering. :) |
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Title: Re: Picking the best pistol caliber Post by Oldfeller--FSO on 05/08/23 at 09:40:44 Justin, this was quite a while ago and I was really pissed at the time. Now I see that it was all new to them, they saw me flagged in their police alert system something which had only happened to criminals in their past experience. I ACTED and I got the issue to stop, but I also lost all enthusiasm for carrying concealed as I saw only courts and jail time for me if I went down that fledgling road. Where I live I have to cross base several times during the week, and carrying concealed on base was stone illegal at that time. ================================== 5C4345425F5869596951434F04360 wrote:
So, if I'm understanding this, the cops used their position to pull yerass over, because they could.. The cops Actually pulling you over didn't Know that the results of running your plate meant? Sounds like someone was engaging in Official Oppression. [/quote] |
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Title: Re: Picking the best pistol caliber Post by Oldfeller--FSO on 05/08/23 at 09:45:49 MM, The Glock 357 Sig guy was getting 1,550 fps out of a 95 grain copper pill, I was getting 1,700 out of my 145 grain cast bullet .40 Super load. His round cost him well over a dollar a pop, mine cost me 20 cents. |
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Title: Re: Picking the best pistol caliber Post by MMRanch on 05/08/23 at 19:30:02 OldFeller , That's a lot of explosion going on , especially to be so close to a person's hand and ears ! Like I suggested , its to much for a carry pistol - but - might be just fine as hunting round or a "car killer round" ?? ;) A 38 special four in barrel is about the max that I care about shooting. Above that level I want it in rifle format . :) I do have a Keltec sub 2000 in 9mm that is light (4 pound-ish) and easy to carry while still being iron sight distance (100 yards) accurate . I don't load more than factory load speeds for it , but do load home made HP's . My case trimmer has some attachments that include a homemade drill bit attachment. It makes it easy to "HP" anything I have a shell holder for. |
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Title: Re: Picking the best pistol caliber Post by Oldfeller--FSO on 06/03/23 at 13:19:45 Got too many people saying 9mm is better, so the empirical guys decided to do reality penetration testing (complete with simulated skin, ribs, lungs and heart. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LTTDgZZZFa0&ab_channel=PaulHarrell Simple empirical testing like this is both informative and also somewhat common sensical and definitive. It says yes, the two calibers are relatively close in performance but all the wonder bullets still perform better in 40 caliber rather than 9mm. Next, the "easier and quicker to shoot" edge to 9mm only seems to apply to small women shooters --- real shooters who do their range time see no edge to accuracy, speed or rate of fire in either direction. Cost factor goes to 9mm for generic fmj practice ammo --- but carry ammo is a wash as far as cost goes. Barrier busting energy shows that 9mm needs twice as many shots to get through and break stuff up (car doors, glass and drywall walls). So, if you use a +2 magazine end cap on your carry magazines to make the round count the same, 40 S&W wins in all the forms of testing. If you goal is some touchy feely "inclusivity" for female officers (and wimpy out of shape male officers) then you change back over to 9mm and don't ever ask the question ever again ---- more testing simply tells you touch feely isn't a practical thing for choosing police firearms. ================================== In the end, it takes 2-3 times the landed 9mm hits to do the same amount of damage either to meat dummies, car doors or to wall structures ---- and the wimpy crew of whatever gender they are this week can't seem to ever get around to landing that minimal base count of hits anyway ....... |
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Title: Re: Picking the best pistol caliber Post by MMRanch on 06/03/23 at 20:43:45 I sure hope the only flesh and blood thing I ever shoot is a deer or coyote . All the legality stuff of unloading on a person is more than I ever want to get into. Most of the time I'm sticking with stuff like the Federal Punch personal defense factory load , or the Browning BPR Pre-fragmenting Performance Bullet. The Aguila Interceptor is near 1500fps with the full 40 gr. too. Dealing with the Lawyers and Judges worries me more than not stopping a bad person with a double tap. Or Having a projectile exit the intended target and striking an un-intended target !!! :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ https://video.search.yahoo.com/search/video?ei=UTF-8&p=aguila+interceptor+vs+cci+velocitor#id=1&vid=2d6024c3a6da2a119c2ca080939ec076&action=click It's amazing how much pottant those little 22lr rounds have gotten now days. Most of those premium 22LR's are more than a quarter/round now too. Mind ya , I carry much bigger rounds in cold weather when folks are wearing coats. But in "T-Shirt" weather my carry choices get real easy !! ;) Nine to ten inches of pentation is about right for people targets IMHO. Hay this is one of the pistols I carry and the ammo I use. https://video.search.yahoo.com/search/video?ei=UTF-8&p=aguila+interceptor+vs+cci+velocitor#id=3&vid=0b69a833b490d4f2e27125e0c21bfea4&action=view |
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Title: Re: Picking the best pistol caliber Post by Oldfeller--FSO on 06/04/23 at 19:48:10 MM, wounding an armed assailant and NOT STOPPING HIM gets you a Darwin Award more times than not. A 22 long rife from a pistol may put somebody in the emergency room to get some of the little 40 grain lead pills removed, but in the meantime the other guy emptied his magazine at you and hit you 2-3 times in the process. Stopping a gun fight means penetrating the central nervous system and yes, this means a strong possibility of an exit wound. All of the old cowboy six gun rounds and the 230 grain FMJ 45acp from a Colt autoloader always were through and through on people (generally taking a chunk of spine with them on the way). WWII evidence says it takes at least 2 hits from a German 9mm Mauser to stop an American GI, while 1 round from a Colt pistol generally did the same job as 2 hits from the German Mauser pistol. All the emphasis of the currently FBI gel tests is sort of misplaced, as buying new guns and designing your rounds to go just this deep and no deeper just because you are afraid of lawsuits is kinda stupid. Designing stuff to stop short of the spine means having to shoot the bad guy accurately a lot more times to stop them. Replacing all your guns with something intentionally less on purpose is sorta stupid too. |
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Title: Re: Picking the best pistol caliber Post by LANCER on 06/05/23 at 04:25:33 I agree, you need a round that will take down someone or an animal with one shot. To do that I depend on a 45LC, 270 or 45-70, and possibly a 12 ga. with a proper load. The 22, 380 & 38 are backup or to be used in a pinch until/if the other can be used. #1 Rule…Survive the attack. |
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Title: Re: Picking the best pistol caliber Post by MMRanch on 06/05/23 at 06:37:15 FBI gel tests is sort of misplaced, You fellers think the "Gel test" are not a good comparison for real life ? :-/ ya'll may be right as far as I know ? ............. The only comparison I have to people size targets is deer hunting. I've never been on scene when a people target has been hit. Here are so observations I've made over the years from deer hunting. 1. I help track a deer that had been shot with an 30-06 180gr soft point factory load. The bullet went into the diagram on the lung side and exited in front of the hip. We tracked blood trail for at least 1/2 mile before we found the deer a half a day later. 2. I shot a deer with a 60gr. 22 cal Bator cast bullet from a lee mold (22Mag-velocity). The bullet went in high on the lung and exited strait out the other side (hunting from the ground) , just in one side and out the other - high in the back of the lungs. That deer went 30 yards and fell over. 3. Hunting from a tree with a 38 special 140grSWC/1000fps pistol 4"barrel. The shot went in high in the back of the lungs and exited front part of the lung on the other side. The deer dropped in it's tracks on the spot. 4. .223 55gr. varmint home load 3200 fps , ground hunting strait into the lungs , deer dropped like a rock. No exit. 5. .243 70gr. varmint home load 3500 fps , ground hunting strait into the lungs , deer dropped like a rock . No exit. 6. .357 pistol 158gr.HP, tree hunting entrance high in lung exit low in lung. deer run 60 yards. "Oh" , this list could go on for a long time ... :P Point is , the only one-shot-drops I've ever seen have been spine shots or Varmint (exploding) projectiles. Either one works but the Varmint requires less accuracy. At least with people ... the threat of getting shot might end a situation ? :-? One more : 45cal-RN-220gr. Muzzle loader rifle , lung shot , dropped like a rock, lungs came out like lumpy gravy ! :) |
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Title: Re: Picking the best pistol caliber Post by Oldfeller--FSO on 06/05/23 at 08:57:06 495B495B56454A474C040 wrote:
I think ballistics gel is "BB gun qualified at a density to mock relaxed muscle tissue". People are made of differing density layers interspersed with bone. Most clear gel is intended to show a maximum clear edged wound cavity and to expand a bullet in a manner somewhat similar to flesh. Using that particular media and then saying "Thou shalt not penetrate more than 15 inches" is a failure due to some bad assumption failures in the test design. Key Bad Assumption in the FBI test methodology is intentionally having the bullet intentionally run out of steam just as it finally reaches the spine area. A better test would have some pig spine bones at that 15" point and if the round didn't smash through the fake spine bones was a test failure. My cast lead plinking rounds would this job better on this test than most FBI qualified premium price bullets. ================================== Most of your hunting stories are about severely messing up the lungs in a fairly drastic fashion while taking out a shoulder and a leg. You are also shooting from above and have to go through the spine area on your way to the lungs. Most common pistol rounds really aren't going fast enough for this sort of lung kill action shooting from the front of a person's torso (exception here goes to powdered metal bullets that fragment and "explode" into dust-like fragments in the lung area but this effect still works better at higher velocities than pistol bullets commonly ever reach. Even then, to stop a Bad Guy in his tracks by popping him sideways in the lungs would take a .357 SIG at 1450 fps or my .40 Super pistol zapping an even larger fragmenting bullet at 1,700 fps. This would make most of the meat on a deer metal contaminated and unusable. Most Bad Guys are shot face on and they cannot be stopped by dropping the BG's blood pressure to zero by ripping out both his lungs as you do with your deer. You can hit his spine though ..... that drops him in his tracks. |
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Title: Re: Picking the best pistol caliber Post by LANCER on 06/05/23 at 12:01:38 When I first got the 45-70 I did a penetration test to see what it would do. I took a section of 6x6 pressure treated post and strapped it to a large tree trunk. Fired from 50’. Entry into the 6x6 was ~3” D, exit … back half of post was gone, and then I dug 6” in to the tree to finally recover the round. It’s adequate. |
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Title: Re: Picking the best pistol caliber Post by MMRanch on 06/05/23 at 12:33:17 No buffalo ever accused the 45-70 of "not being enough" Hay , back when I really used "Black powder" in my Black powder rifles I used 70grs behind a 220gr bullet. Now with the 209 shotgun primer rifles I just look up a load for the old trap-door 45-70 and push it down the barrel. I still use the 220gr bullet ... those big bullets hurt too much on both ends ! ;D ;D Thinking about the 45ACP ... I have a hard time believing that it's not enough bullet for people size targets . I have a .357 lever action rifle (iron peep sights) that I've taken a lot of deer with. That 158gr.swc-gas check bullet that lee makes the mold for has never failed to exit deer size targets , but it don't fit in my pocket very well ?? :-/ So which gun fits in your pocket ? And is comfortable to carry ?? |
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Title: Re: Picking the best pistol caliber Post by LANCER on 06/05/23 at 16:42:54 The Bond Arms company is now making a single barrel derringer that fires a 45-70. Better get a good hold on that grip. |
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Title: Re: Picking the best pistol caliber Post by MnSpring on 06/05/23 at 20:14:17 "... So which gun fits in your pocket ? And is comfortable to carry ?? ..." My 3 cents. Defense/Carry. S&W 640 or Kimber K6s. Both DAO, (Double Action Only) and in various configurations. Both smooth, no visible hammer to hang/snag on things. They go into a pocket, holster, or just lay in the drawer or console. Both 38/357. ‘J’ frame size. S&W is 5 shot, Kimber is 6 shot. Both are quality reliable firearms. Reason a Double Action Only should be used for defense Is if you ever had to use it, the Lawyer for the person you shot, WILL, say you did it on purpose and with malice. Only One Way to shoot a DAO. Next, use ONLY factory Ammunition. ONLY. Reloads can very easily be much more effective. Yet again the Attorney, WILL say anything, other than factory, is ‘malice’ (etc). Self Defense, a Revolver. No slide to pull back, no safety catch, no magazine not fully in, no not fire if Mag is out. Revolver just pull the trigger. If a bad round, just pull it again. Nothing wrong with Semi Autos, large clips, projected dot sites, different this or that. Nothing wrong with any brand/stye/configuration/etc. They are ALL fun to shoot. As to what size, .22RF to 50-70. What you have, is better than not having. |
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Title: Re: Picking the best pistol caliber Post by MMRanch on 06/05/23 at 20:45:21 MnSpring You know what ! I have very similar arms : Taurus UL5shot38-2" but mine is double action also An eight shot 22lr UL-2"-J frame Charter Arms. They are both easy to carry and are sooo light ! Pocket holster or belt holster. Why would double action only be better in court ? :-? I would think the 22lr would be better in court but I hope I never find out for sure ! I got the "Law Shield" on stand by , but would rather pay them forever and never need them. |
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Title: Re: Picking the best pistol caliber Post by MnSpring on 06/05/23 at 21:24:53 "... Why would double action only be better in court ? ..." DAO can be fired only one way. If you cocked the hammer on a DA/SA and even the act of cocking the hammer on a SA the Lawyer would most likely say: 'You Deliberately Shot ..." (Only Baldwin can coock a hammer on a SA, and it will fire without pulling the trigger) |
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Title: Re: Picking the best pistol caliber Post by verslagen1 on 06/05/23 at 22:12:44 4B685576746F6861060 wrote:
Oh hell... the gun loaded itself too. |
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Title: Re: Picking the best pistol caliber Post by MMRanch on 06/05/23 at 22:49:18 Well , ladies and gentlemen ... this person was going to kill me if I didn't ! I'd do the same again to protect any person on this jury. Only fire in self defense or to save the life of another incent person. There are so many predators' out looking for a victim ... its only a matter of time before we are all targeted. It would seem like any DA worthy of their office would know who the predators are. Maybe I'm over confidant in the "Good" of my fellow citizens ? :-? |
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Title: Re: Picking the best pistol caliber Post by TheSneeze on 06/06/23 at 08:49:35 44 magnum - for when an intruder is behind the refridgerator - in your neighbor's house! |
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Title: Re: Picking the best pistol caliber Post by MMRanch on 06/06/23 at 09:24:40 ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D No , just borrow that 40 cal. 45ACP monster that started this thread . I really preferer the "Most gun I can get" , but I can't pocket the "Most gun I can get" ... so What else can ya do ? :-/ |
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Title: Re: Picking the best pistol caliber Post by LANCER on 06/06/23 at 14:26:11 Sew on a bigger pocket, or get a 45-70 derringer. [ch128526] |
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Title: Re: Picking the best pistol caliber Post by TheSneeze on 06/06/23 at 16:03:43 I have a Beretta PX4 Storm 9mm. It was the most comfortable fit in my hand out of all the pistols I picked up. |
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Title: Re: Picking the best pistol caliber Post by Oldfeller--FSO on 06/06/23 at 19:22:13 So far we have members picking out calibers and guns according to "how comfortable they feel in their hand" and what the internet tells them is cool and can go bang more times than the other guns. 380 acp small pistols are being picked despite folks like Ayob telling you the caliber is just too weak and the barrels are too short to get the bullets to penetrate and expand to even meet the very minimum FBI standards. MM mentions double tapping as a 9mm fix. A BG that is double tapped may die more frequently at the end of the fight, but he will still be shooting rounds back at you in the meantime and will not be "stopped" fast enough unless he happens to get hit in the spine. Mashed up lungs may kill your BG after he has run 20 yards like a deer would do, but he has time to rack up a half dozen hits on you on the way. Shoot for the spine works instantly every time --- and yes, a lead practice round from my 40 caliber S&W can get there better than anything 380 acp ..... and better than most things in 9x18 that are designed to the current FBI restrictions on overpenetrating which result in chronically not reaching the spine. http://https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/1740/5419/products/Kill_Zone_Target_800x.jpg?v=1592921425 A, B, C, D zones are marked in order of "effective spinal shooting" ..... |
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Title: Re: Picking the best pistol caliber Post by MMRanch on 06/06/23 at 19:33:30 I carry just about every where I go and if a state don't recognize my TN permit then I just go around that State . Everyday carry limits the firearm size most of the time. Lancer , I've got a two shot over/under derringer that is chambered in 32HR Mag. Well the grip lets me get one and a half fingers on grip. The bottom barrel recoils into the palm of the hand ... but ... that top barrel ... is a totally different story , I've set it for top barrel first for a couple of young folks - then I move around behind them and wait for the pistol to come flying over their heads when it goes off , ;D . Ya have to let the meanest out or ya might blow-up ;) |
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Title: Re: Picking the best pistol caliber Post by Oldfeller--FSO on 06/07/23 at 07:06:14 MM's quote of the day "Let the meaness out of them". Yeppers, all 26 rounds of 40 caliber 175 grain powder coated cast lead meaness at a very moderate low pressure low kicking 1,000 fps --- each shot well able to shoot through and break a BG's spine and stop him cold. I could rapidly deal out triple taps to 5 perps and have rounds available to shoot clean up to those who were still firing. ;D http://suzukisavage.com/yabb2.2/Attachments/IMG_20230407_145354042.jpg |
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Title: Re: Picking the best pistol caliber Post by MMRanch on 06/07/23 at 10:11:36 I had to open the image in a new tab to see it ??? OK If no body else is going to ask then I will : Have you weighed that thing with a full magazine ? I'm guessing 2.5 pounds plus ? I had one of those 17+ 1 9mm's one time and never carried it because when I loaded it up ... then ... it pulled my pants down ! ;D Mostly it just layed around the house waiting on a home-invasion. Well ... Nobody ever invaded so I traded it off. But If somebody ever did invade my house now (while I'm home) ... I'm sure I'd be under gun-ed , I could make an invader feel very un-welcome with my little pop guns . I shoot carpenter bees with those little pop guns all the time. ;) |
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Title: Re: Picking the best pistol caliber Post by Oldfeller--FSO on 06/07/23 at 10:25:19 2.5 pounds on the nose carrying 26 rounds of cast lead goodness ---- a very good guesstimate MM. Fully loaded, the gun doesn't buck much at all when shot. By the time it shoots itself empty it is rocking up and back a good bit more ....... |
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Title: Re: Picking the best pistol caliber Post by MMRanch on 06/07/23 at 20:23:28 I've got a 42 oz 357 revolver that I don't like to shoot 357 ammo in because the recoil is just crazzy. With the full power reloads ... its a hand cannon. Its way to big to carry. My son wants me to keep it for him and I've got a lot of 357 ammo loaded up , so I keep it just incase our country gets invaded or something similar If I remember right ??? Your pistol is 45acp necked down to 40cal. ? |
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Title: Re: Picking the best pistol caliber Post by Oldfeller--FSO on 06/08/23 at 03:56:03 I have several different pistols and solid stainless steel revolvers in my gun safe. They all weigh a good bit more since they are solid stainless steel. The big Glock 40 Super you mention cannot be shot inside a house without taking out everyone's ear drums due to the muzzle brake. As you remember, it was a heavy gun also. I can't handle the grip weight of the most potent of these larger guns any longer. I am old and feeble, or getting there. The Glock 22 (my smaller Glock 40 caliber), even apart from using the long clear magazine, is about as much as I can handle while sitting in my powered wheel chair. If I was in carry mode, it would have a stock black Glock barrel in place and look like what it is, a bone stock LEO issue service Glock 22 trade in gun. MM, you have downsized yourself into low capacity Mouse Guns which is a mistake as those little things aren't going to get the job done when facing a 9mm wielding attacker. Everyone is packing now-a-days, so you face off with the one who is going to shoot you first and a couple of his buddies that he is running with. Good luck with a double barrel derringer. The odds are against an old person to begin with, my first group attack move against me would be to push my wheel chair over. Then I would kick the shite out of me in the head until I was all bloody and unconscious and then rob me at your leisure. In wheel chair attacks knives are most commonly used on the cripple as wheel chair bound are not rated as being worthy of taking out your gun. ::) hint ...... don't bring a knife to a gunfight ....... Interesting point made by several 9mm "5 BEST 9mm pistols" reviews is that the Glock 19 AND ALL OF THE CURRENT COMPETITORS TO THAT GUN all only have a 15 round capacity in 9mm as their grips were shortened to maximize these guns conceal-ability. This is the 15 round count that is most commonly available across the board now, anyway. Hey, this is the exact same round count as my ex-police Glock G22 40 cal S&W, so the most modern Glocks have just gone "round count equal" and have given away their magazine capacity advantage. Next, note that 10 round capacity pistol magazines are likely making a comeback soon, mandated by somebody or other agency that actually lacks the authority to make up this sort of restriction. As such this restriction if it comes about may be short lived just like the previous magazine restrictions were. |
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Title: Re: Picking the best pistol caliber Post by LANCER on 06/08/23 at 13:25:30 Whose making more holes, you or the carpenter bees ? [ch128527] |
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Title: Re: Picking the best pistol caliber Post by Ruttly on 06/09/23 at 11:58:55 I won’t tell you the caliber I want it to be a Surprise ! |
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Title: Re: Picking the best pistol caliber Post by MMRanch on 06/11/23 at 11:42:15 Whose making more holes, you or the carpenter bees ? Hay Lance , I only shoot them in the air , sitting targets are way too easy ! ;). Some time I get lucky and hit them from the draw , but most of the time I aim ... but they don't give a feller much time for finding the sights ! I do carry bigger slugs when the coats come out of the closets ! :) https://video.search.yahoo.com/search/video?ei=UTF-8&p=ruger+lpc+2+for+self+defence+vs#id=4&vid=fa4408bcbc704edf5dc4cbf131440a40&action=view I got cases of these: https://video.search.yahoo.com/search/video?ei=UTF-8&p=22lr+self+defense+ammo#id=14&vid=556c848e6628a277b9a09501595e7bb0&action=view expermint on dead cow mussle , ribs , lungs .... don't watch right before dinner ! ::) : https://video.search.yahoo.com/search/video?ei=UTF-8&p=22lr+self+defense+ammo#id=36&vid=ebdced674f6073c97fed6958ca8cd0a0&action=view using the right ammo REALLY matters ;) |
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Title: Re: Picking the best pistol caliber Post by Oldfeller--FSO on 06/17/23 at 06:14:58 Went this past weekend to visit with some family in the NC mountains at their daughter's HS graduation. Good visit, had uncles aunts and several full families all there to watch the girl walk to get her diploma. Notably, these folks are all 9mm aficionados and a lot of them had just upgraded their guns in the past year or so. Knowledgeable folks, we had some good conversations about Glocks, S&W MPs and self defense. 9mm hardball was something the older men learned in the military and the kids had learned from their buddies and the internet. Ammo currently riding in those guns is 9mm full metal jacket round nose hard ball similar to WWII loadings. They believe this will penetrate deep enough to get in-capacitance in most frontal shootings, sometimes penetrating deeply enough to incapacitate a BG anyway. They plan to empty their magazine any time they have to shoot their gun. If the BG is still standing, he gets shot some more. =================================== Black and brown bears live in their neighborhoods. They see these bears in the neighborhood trash cans all the time. I asked if they would use their Glocks in case of a bear attack --- they said they would shoot the bear in the head once or twice then run like hell as the bear would hopefully hesitate to pursue them after getting shot. A closed car door or house door is their real answer to the bear question as they are not permitted to kill the bears with a rifle as nuisance critters. ---- Why use FMJ round nose WWII style 9mm loadings? ANSWER: Bears need heavier harder slugs with more penetration as pissing the bruins off with expanding bullets isn't any sort of answer at all. Me, I think they should be carrying some heavier cartridges if bears are an ongoing part of their reality. |
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Title: Re: Picking the best pistol caliber Post by MMRanch on 06/17/23 at 21:58:05 Dealing with a bear is not what that 9mm was made for , for-sure ! But We all know the saying : The gun in your pocket is 100% better than the one you have in your gun safe ! ;) ....................... I wonder if the .357/158gr./SWC is Black Bear material , I would think not if its from a 2" barrel. But 4" or more might be a different story ? :-? ....................... I have a Guzzi buddy who has a cabin in north Ga. Well , its in Bear country and he don't live in the cabin . So Bob goes out to fix the little things once in a while. Well he was telling me , He was up on the roof looking for a leak when he spotted an approaching Black Bear.?" So Bob says "I got down off the roof , went inside and watched through the window" - "The Bear looked around for some food for a while then left". Then Bob , tells more. Bob tells a Game Warden about the episode and where it happened at --- after the Game Warden gets through laughing for a while Game Warden tells Bob , " That's where we release all the "PROBLEM BEARS AT"". Then the Game Warden tells Bob , he needs to get him a .454 or some kind of SW.500 revolver to carry with him when he's out and about up there. Well , bob was telling me he didn't want to carry a "MONSTER" gun like that hanging off his hip. I suggested he get a 4" .357 and some soft point Mag. loads for it. If I had been thinking I should have suggested to sell him my old Ruger Black Hawk 6.5" .357 , but I didn't think of it till a day later. What I did think of at the time was : "Well , that sure explains why you got that land so cheep ! " ;D |
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Title: Re: Picking the best pistol caliber Post by Oldfeller--FSO on 06/20/23 at 03:49:34 Alaska natives going out near streams in fishing season carry heavy cast 44 magnums and heavy cast 10mm magnums for grizzly bear deterrence just until they can get over to pick up their long gun to stop the problem bear. Slug loads in shotguns, large buckshot loads, 45-70 lever actions are popular choices for a truck gun that can be carried as your long gun backup while fishing in bear country. NOTE: These rounds are also noted as generally good car door penetrator rounds ...... 357 heavy cast out of a pistol is discussed a lot but not positively. Six shots out of a 357 revolver may kill the bear, eventually, but only after the enraged bear finishes mauling you. 357 magnum and 350 Legend using heavy cast bullets out of a rifle gets some approval as the heavy cast slugs do penetrate more deeply out of a lever action. 450 AR gets the nod for a modern sporting rifle load as tentatively does the new 40 Legend round (no real shootings for 40 Legend yet as it has just now hit the market). Both 450 AR and 40 Legend get dinged for higher recoil than most women would enjoy shooting. Part of this comes from the hard, narrow AR butt stock designs that came over from the .223 era. ================================== https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D4woy2rr0pE&ab_channel=BananaBallistics Got some additional information on 450 Bushmaster which says it UNDERPERFORMS to the 350 Legend on steel penetration due to much lower velocity at any given range. We know velocity counts and from past experience that 350 Legend penetrates better than what its factory numbers would generally indicate. The hollow point nose of my 147 grain .355 subsonic slugs simply blows up when fired over 2200 fps, but losing the open petals does not stop the resulting wadded up looking jacket-less cylinder form continuing on, penetrating over 20 inches of FBI gel as a kinda sorta tumbling wadcutter bullet. Yes, you DO always blow off the folded over petals and tear and peel off the copper jacket at those speeds, but the resulting soft lead cylinder form expands some on the front end, tumbles, flattens and mangles up meat very nicely as it penetrates on through the animal. |
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Title: Re: Picking the best pistol caliber Post by Oldfeller--FSO on 06/20/23 at 08:21:52 654243435B4E370 wrote:
OK, we are now all braced and ready ----- Surprise us. |
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Title: Re: Picking the best pistol caliber Post by Ruttly on 06/20/23 at 10:17:38 My brother used to load his .38 special wad cutters backwards into shell , seemed to increase how much slug distorts upon reaching its destination. I’ve got incredibly hot 357 rounds but they go thru everything. Wad cutters backwards tear $hit up but stop a destination. Next to that is a 20” over under .357 maximum , not a magnum with a 3”chamber 20 gauge for things larger than humans. Slugs or buckshot loads. H/P slugs really tear $hit up too , super fun round. At home I load it with bird shot & .38 wad cutter and wad cutters in the revolver. So nothing travels beyond destination. |
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Title: Re: Picking the best pistol caliber Post by MMRanch on 06/20/23 at 11:07:16 Bullet Style makes a difference. Here is a story from the 38 Long Colt and its 130gr. round nose bullet. : History and usage The cartridge's relatively poor ballistics were highlighted during the Philippine–American War of 1899–1902, when reports from U.S. Army officers were received regarding the .38 bullet's inability to stop charges of frenzied Moro juramentados during the Moro Rebellion, even at extremely close ranges.[5][6][7][8] A typical instance occurred in 1905 and was later recounted by Colonel Louis A. LaGarde: Antonio Caspi, a prisoner on the island of Samar, P.I. attempted escape on Oct. 26, 1905. He was shot four times at close range in a hand-to-hand encounter by a .38 Colt's revolver loaded with U.S. Army regulation ammunition. He was finally stunned by a blow on the forehead from the butt end of a Springfield carbine.[9] Col. LaGarde noted Caspi's wounds were fairly well-placed: three bullets entered the chest, perforating the lungs. One passed through the body, one lodged near the back and the other lodged in subcutaneous tissue. The fourth round went through the right hand and exited through the forearm.[10] As an emergency response to the round's unexpectedly dismal performance, the U.S. Army authorized officers to carry M1873 Colt Single Action Army revolvers, chambered in .45 Colt, and issued from reserve stocks. Army Ordnance also purchased a number of M1902 revolvers (the M1902 was an improved version of Colt's Double Action Army Model 1878, a .45-caliber rod-ejector double-action revolver) for issue to officers deploying overseas. The .38 Long Colt remained the Army's primary revolver cartridge until 1909, when the .45 M1909 cartridge[b] was issued along with the .45 Colt New Service revolver as the new standard military sidearm for the U.S. Army. However, some of the old .38 Long Colt revolvers and ammunition remained in reserve stocks, and when the U.S. entered World War I in 1917, the need for sidearms was such that even these low-performing weapons were brought out of storage for usage away from the front lines. In civilian use, the .38 LC was chambered in a number of Colt revolvers and saw some use among target shooters. Various U.S. police forces also adopted the cartridge. However, the cartridge became nearly extinct after Smith & Wesson's more powerful .38 Special cartridge became widely popular as a civilian and police service cartridge. By 1908, even Colt was chambering their new Police Positive and Army Special revolvers in ".38 Colt Special", which was just a standard .38 Smith & Wesson Special with a different headstamp.[11][12] I like the bullets that blow-up , I've seen them work on deer size targets . I've also seen 30-06 180 gr.SP pass right through deer with hardly any effect. Give me a .243 70gr.XTP every time - That 38cal. 140gr. HBWC must "SPLAT" REALLY GOOD ! I used to frog hunt long ago with 177 cal pellets loaded backward and do head shots. One jump and they land hard. I really hope I never have a close range Bear encounter ! At least with people there is a chance that a warning shot will end the encounter . |
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Title: Re: Picking the best pistol caliber Post by Oldfeller--FSO on 06/25/23 at 20:05:44 Gently, gently ........ You must have realized you were kinda sorta "historical comparing" weak 38 caliber revolver cartridges to stronger more modern cartridges, such as the 9mm Parabellum and the 357. Your comparisons also ring true and "similar to" comparing 9mm Parabellum to modern 40 caliber rounds. About the same performance gaps exist as your old military rounds that ran at historical lesser pressures. 180 grain powder coated cast bullets from my 40 S&W long barrel 24 round magazine Glock at around 1,050 fps would flat ring a bruin's chimes if you shot him in the head a few times. You could get over the panic and then engage in disciplined aimed fire at his spine and his skull until the bear quit moving ........ 24 rounds is a whole lot of shooting. Six shots from a .357 would be a relatively short amount of shots to bet your life on as your misses would hurt you relatively more with only six shots ..... in this sense 24 shots out of the 40 S&W would be a lot safer. |
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Title: Re: Picking the best pistol caliber Post by Ruttly on 06/25/23 at 22:58:03 If it doesn’t jam |
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Title: Re: Picking the best pistol caliber Post by Oldfeller--FSO on 06/26/23 at 07:21:49 So far, no jams. 40 S&W vs 10mm is somewhat complicated by the FBI having downloaded the 10mm with powder loads and bullet weights that mocked what the 40 S&W would be when it finally came out. I admit that a full on 10mm loading is more than I'd care to shoot a lot of ---- by the same tolken a reloader can put together similar "10mm lower range" of loads using Longshot powder right out of the factory supplied on line 40 S&W load listings. Longshot can put a good bit of umph into that short brass case. In consideration of female officers (and of limp wrist male FBI desk weenies) the FBI downloaded both the 10mm and the 40 S&W to the milder side in attempts to make it more friendly to shoot and to back the round down the ever shallower FBI penetration levels. I shoot a lot of wimpy lead cast practice rounds --- I had me a teenage daughter at the time who liked to go shooting with her old man. My weak practice rounds would penetrate and break your spine even if being "shooter friendly" to her. She liked shooting her 40, and she took it with her when she married. 9mm ball ammo penetrates on somewhat the same level as my 40 S&W cast lead practice ammo. The hole size and tumble destruction is bigger on the 40 S&W of course ...... |
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Title: Re: Picking the best pistol caliber Post by MMRanch on 06/27/23 at 06:26:35 weenies ? It may be to prevent over penetration ? :-? Living/shooting in a city could have a need to change what a person is throwing around. I didn't like and got rid of the 44Mag I had at one time , that's where the .357 Blackhawk came from. That 44Mag was teaching me BAD HABBITS that was destroying ACCURACY . Heck ! The .357 full power loads stings in the hand when it goes off , and it's a good idea to wear hearing protection when shooting them. Bob was talking about Black Bear . I'm not sure a Pistol/Revolver is going to stop a Grizzly ??? Well , there ain't no Grizzly Bears here , and I'm OK with that just like it is . :) ................. Are we planning a ride to Grizzly country ? If so ??? we need to bring you along OldFeller . We might put our bikes in a truck to get there if you want to ? Remember the video of the Japanese old guys that go bike ridding on their 125's ? I like 125 size bikes ! ;) The last one I had was about 10 years ago (GN125) it was a fun little machine ! |
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Title: Re: Picking the best pistol caliber Post by verslagen1 on 06/28/23 at 18:07:09 http://https://imageproxy.ifunny.co/crop:x-20,resize:640x,quality:90x75/images/554113eb6ad43b651e72050e80c5b8b4fe652cad3d3360f84f765a4559dc4ef5_1.jpg |
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Title: Re: Picking the best pistol caliber Post by MMRanch on 06/28/23 at 19:05:58 ;D |
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Title: Re: Picking the best pistol caliber Post by Oldfeller--FSO on 06/30/23 at 14:45:41 9mm nor 40 S&W doesn't / can't set off Tannerite by simply shooting it. Tannerite requires over a 2000 fps impact velocity to reliably ignite the stuff. https://tannerite.com/binary-target-faq/ This lets out all the pistol rounds as contestants. |
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