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SuzukiSavage.com
/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> Top end damage and rebuild /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1666608884 Message started by Moarpower on 10/24/22 at 03:54:43 |
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Title: Top end damage and rebuild Post by Moarpower on 10/24/22 at 03:54:43 HI guys. I decided to consolidate my issue into this thread to make it easier. The reason Im posting it in this section of the forum is because I need advice as to what to purchase and if its even repairable. As some are aware I was about to sell my 87 Savage. I had 4 buyers at 4800 AUD. I paid 1500 for the bike and spent 1000 on transport and parts, so I looked at a tidy 2300aud profit. Unfortunately, when I was giving it one last check I noticed it had gotten quite noisy. There was also steel in the oil and filter along with some aluminium I am not the type of person to sell a bike with issues unless it's sold for parts so I opened up the top end, optimistic that Id still make a profit after the repairs. If I find more serious damage, I will get an upgraded piston and cam. Here is a link to the sound of the engine. Even after adjusting the valves to 0.10mm it was tapping loud. https://www.youtube.com/shorts/SbAMFCubTto Removing the valve cover I immediately noticed a massive issue and the primary source of the ferrous metal in the oil. The intake valve rocker looked like it had been hit with an angle grinder. The exhaust rocker, while not near as bad was pitted. |
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Title: Re: Top end damage and rebuild Post by Moarpower on 10/24/22 at 03:57:23 The previous owner changed the timing chain. So I believe these issues arrived after improper reassembly, for example, he forgot to replace the large timing sprocket washer (part number 1274744001). I can also recall when I went to purchase the bike I had seen several videos of the bike idling on its kick stand. At the time of purchase I was not aware of the dangers of this. |
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Title: Re: Top end damage and rebuild Post by Moarpower on 10/24/22 at 04:03:06 The cam lobes seem ok. But the journals on the clutch side are trashed. Im guessing this is the source of the aluminium looking flakes in the filter and oil. Here is the image of the head cover journal on the sprocket. |
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Title: Re: Top end damage and rebuild Post by Moarpower on 10/24/22 at 04:06:09 here is the lower journal on the sprocket side |
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Title: Re: Top end damage and rebuild Post by Moarpower on 10/24/22 at 04:14:11 I next went to remove the head and was not really pleased to find that the head nut that secures the head via the exhaust port stud was completely round. I had to cut the stud to get it off so add a new stud to the parts list. The exhaust valves are jet black. The intake valves look a bit toasty. But not too bad. They may clean up fine but if it's all out they may as well get replaced too. |
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Title: Re: Top end damage and rebuild Post by Moarpower on 10/24/22 at 04:17:27 The top of the piston is a copper color with some greasy sut that I was able to wipe away without too much effort. no pitting or damage to the rings, skirts or top. There is barely any rotational movement in the pin but it is very very very slightly there. I was also able to slightly move the piston inside the cylinder. Only about 1/4 of a mm put should it impossible to move the piston at all in the sleeve? |
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Title: Re: Top end damage and rebuild Post by Moarpower on 10/24/22 at 04:20:24 The cylinder has no honing marks left. Only slight up and marks from the rings but nothing I can feel or catch a nail on. |
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Title: Re: Top end damage and rebuild Post by Moarpower on 10/24/22 at 04:22:45 The cam seems pretty good. No real pittling on the lobes but a couple of chips on the edges. Not surprised given that rocker. |
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Title: Re: Top end damage and rebuild Post by Moarpower on 10/24/22 at 04:23:16 More of the cam So from here what is my best course of action? Are the journals repairable at all? Seems like there's no luck on the forums with that. Should I just source a new head? Or just smooth the bearing and install a new cam and hope for the best ? The cam will be replaced as I am not comfortable using it so Ill see if the postage isn't out of this world to get one from Lancer to here in Australia. The rest of the valve train is easily replaced. The only roadblocks will be those journals and that bloody stud I had to cut. If anyone knows anyone selling a head and cover in Australia or would sell cheap as postage is huge, please do let me know. I really appreciate the help guys. |
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Title: Re: Top end damage and rebuild Post by Moarpower on 10/24/22 at 07:41:49 This guy had his repaired. |
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Title: Re: Top end damage and rebuild Post by justin_o_guy2 on 10/24/22 at 07:50:39 It's my understanding that the head and cover are assembled, then line bored for the cam. That would make them actually a matched pair, Best kept together. Others have replaced a head and I don't know of a failure because of a misalignment with the cam. IDK what having the bearing surfaces repaired would cost, and just a head won't help with the bottom side, Too bad they didn't use bearings in there. Corrected cover for cylinder -v1 |
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Title: Re: Top end damage and rebuild Post by TheSneeze on 10/24/22 at 07:57:24 Later model rockers have a hardened pad to ride on the cam lobe. They are a direct bolt in from the early style you have. Mine is an '87 as well, and I am going to install these. My rockers and cam lobes were shot, but my bearing surfaces were still good. The cam cover and head are match bored so if you find someone who can repair the head the cam cover will require the same treatment. If it were me, and I wanted to restore the engine to operational status, the entire thing would need disassembly, inspection, and a thorough cleaning (including all oil passages). This would include measuring all wear surfaces on all moving parts with accurate measuring tools = micrometers, bore gages, etc. Sorry to see this, but you have a serious issue on your hands. Kudos for being an upstanding person and not trying to sell it off to someone else as a running bike. |
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Title: Re: Top end damage and rebuild Post by verslagen1 on 10/24/22 at 08:47:49 I'd check the clearance on the journals 1st with those compressible strips. Then polish them and check again. |
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Title: Re: Top end damage and rebuild Post by Moarpower on 10/24/22 at 14:36:34 766572736C6167656E31000 wrote:
I need to purchase measuring tools. Sorry, what do you mean by compressible strips? Do you know the range for the clearances ? |
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Title: Re: Top end damage and rebuild Post by justin_o_guy2 on 10/24/22 at 15:34:51 https://www.plastigaugeusa.com/ |
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Title: Re: Top end damage and rebuild Post by Moarpower on 10/24/22 at 17:22:32 Thanks Justin. I'll order that and I should probably organise a new cam before measuring. If they are in spec would I be semi-safe to just smooth them out and keep riding til a new head or repair option is available? |
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Title: Re: Top end damage and rebuild Post by verslagen1 on 10/24/22 at 17:28:52 5C7E7063617E667463110 wrote:
journal oil clearance 0.0013-0.0026" wear limit 0.0059" |
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Title: Re: Top end damage and rebuild Post by Moarpower on 10/24/22 at 17:57:45 6F7C6B6A75787E7C7728190 wrote:
journal oil clearance 0.0013-0.0026" wear limit 0.0059"[/quote] Thanks Vers. Is this the same on all of the journals? What are the factory clearances on a new motor? |
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Title: Re: Top end damage and rebuild Post by justin_o_guy2 on 10/24/22 at 18:04:43 they are in spec would I be semi-safe to just smooth them out and keep riding til a new head or repair option is available? I'm not the guy to answer that. I am the guy who would ask it. |
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Title: Re: Top end damage and rebuild Post by Moarpower on 10/24/22 at 18:22:19 7C6365627F7849794971636F24160 wrote:
One way to find out I guess |
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Title: Re: Top end damage and rebuild Post by verslagen1 on 10/24/22 at 18:26:37 43616F7C7E61796B7C0E0 wrote:
journal oil clearance 0.0013-0.0026" wear limit 0.0059"[/quote] Thanks Vers. Is this the same on all of the journals? What are the factory clearances on a new motor? [/quote] I would assume the 1st range is new or typical and the 2nd is max |
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Title: Re: Top end damage and rebuild Post by Moarpower on 10/24/22 at 19:31:19 Thanks very. It really would suck to have to scrap this bike but it looks like that's on the cards. |
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Title: Re: Top end damage and rebuild Post by DragBikeMike on 10/24/22 at 20:45:55 You obviously must replace the head assembly (head and head cover). The cam is not salvageable. I doubt Web will accept it as a core. I wouldn't consider trying to use the cam. The lobes are heavily scored and the edges of the lobes have actually been rolled over. Impressive considering how hard the material is. |
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Title: Re: Top end damage and rebuild Post by DragBikeMike on 10/24/22 at 20:47:23 Looks like there's even a chunk of the lobe gone. |
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Title: Re: Top end damage and rebuild Post by DragBikeMike on 10/24/22 at 20:48:15 The cam journal is scored. That's why I don't think Web will accept it for a core. |
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Title: Re: Top end damage and rebuild Post by DragBikeMike on 10/24/22 at 20:53:48 Considering the starter gear failure, and now these heavily worn rockers and cam, it's apparent that a lot of metallic debris has been circulating all through your engine. It also appears as though it was woefully short on lubrication. You can't have any confidence in the engine. I would seek out a good used powerplant and install it into your ride. Then, at your leisure, go through the old engine and build a proper hot-rod. It is ALWAYS good to have two engines. |
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Title: Re: Top end damage and rebuild Post by Moarpower on 10/24/22 at 20:56:41 27212E52505753630 wrote:
I agree Mike. I have begun the search for a used motor and contacted every motorcycle machine shop within 200kms to see about resurfacing the cam journals. . I have a Honda vlx 600 to work on while i wait. I'd hate to scrap the savage but they just aren't common bikes here so I'll keep hunting. |
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Title: Re: Top end damage and rebuild Post by Moarpower on 10/25/22 at 00:28:01 Hi guys. I have found a motor for 600aud. He is going to open it up and check the head for me. It's a 2001 and mine is an 87. Is there anything I'd need to change ? |
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Title: Re: Top end damage and rebuild Post by Yazman on 10/25/22 at 06:05:33 FWIW, I was having similar issues on my Rebel 250, and the full engine swap ending up being the way to go. Immeasurably easier and less frustrating. I spent weeks trying to repair my old engine, took an hour to swap in a new, running unit. |
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Title: Re: Top end damage and rebuild Post by Moarpower on 10/25/22 at 06:27:54 724A51464A452B0 wrote:
Im definitely on the hunt for a complete motor but my chances are very slim |
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Title: Re: Top end damage and rebuild Post by TheSneeze on 10/25/22 at 10:45:22 7E5C5241435C445641330 wrote:
I know the main difference is the '01 is a 5 speed trans, yours is a 4 speed. This is what the late model rockers look like. That is a new cam for a '95 DR650 (more lift and duration than a Savage). |
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Title: Re: Top end damage and rebuild Post by TheSneeze on 10/25/22 at 10:48:23 This is what I found when I opened up my cam cover. It was a non-running bike when I got it. Luckily the cam journals were fine, only the rockers and cam lobes were shot. |
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Title: Re: Top end damage and rebuild Post by TheSneeze on 10/25/22 at 10:51:08 On the pic of the new rockers you can see the hardened pads they upgraded to. Obviously Suzuki was correcting a design flaw with the earlier rockers. |
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Title: Re: Top end damage and rebuild Post by Moarpower on 10/25/22 at 15:49:34 How well does the bike run with the dr650 cam? The engine I found for 600 is no good so the search continues. It might be a long time so I'm going to cancel the registration. |
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Title: Re: Top end damage and rebuild Post by TheSneeze on 10/25/22 at 15:59:02 My motor is in pieces on one of my work benches. I have 98% of what I need to start the reassembly process, but need to paint my engine cases. So, short version is I don't know yet. But DragBikeMike has a lot of info and details of using this cam in is "how to hotrod" threads. |
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Title: Re: Top end damage and rebuild Post by Moarpower on 10/25/22 at 21:18:05 I have spoken to many machine shops and top end specialist with only one person willing to try something. He suggested if there is enough surface left on the journals, decking the head and/or cap slightly to get everything running within tolerances. This could get me riding for a while longer while I search for a replacement head or engine |
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Title: Re: Top end damage and rebuild Post by Moarpower on 10/25/22 at 21:41:25 I have also spoken to a workshop 3 hours away. They are willing to help with welding and line boring for around 500 AUD. With a new cam and rockers, Id still make a profit on the bike if I do decide to sell it. If I decide to keep the bike, this issue has me wondering about running an external oil pump. While I am sure user error is to blame in the first place Id love to be able to go on a multi-hour ride feeling confident in my engines oil flow |
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Title: Re: Top end damage and rebuild Post by Moarpower on 10/26/22 at 00:19:15 I have found a LS400 being parted out. From what I can find, and that is very little, the parts may be interchangeable as far as the head goes. Any one able to clarify? |
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Title: Re: Top end damage and rebuild Post by Dave on 10/26/22 at 03:27:09 1C3E3023213E263423510 wrote:
The LS400 head is the same except it does not have the compression release shaft. The piston and cylinder bores is smaller and the rod journal is smaller by 1mm.....you would not be able to make a 650 by using the larger 94mm piston. |
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Title: Re: Top end damage and rebuild Post by Moarpower on 10/26/22 at 03:44:19 Thanks Dave. All I'd be needing was the head assembly with the cam a rockers. not the cylinder. I'm assuming if it doesn't have the decomp it's not going to work? |
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Title: Re: Top end damage and rebuild Post by Moarpower on 10/26/22 at 04:09:27 I do have a 400 head I can buy. I wonder if I can make it work if I had a shop machine the 400 head to mount the decomp. Or if I could make something else work. |
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Title: Re: Top end damage and rebuild Post by Moarpower on 10/27/22 at 14:59:54 Hey guys, so so far my only option is to buy a 400 head. Is it possible to make the decomp work on these if I was to take it to a machine shop? I know no one is probably done it But without having it in hand to look at as it's coming from New Zealand, I'd assume that's Suzuki try to save money by simply using the same casting and just not boring out and threading the holes necessary. What do you think? |
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Title: Re: Top end damage and rebuild Post by Dave on 10/27/22 at 16:42:45 If you live in a warm climate and keep a fresh battery - you may be able to get by without a compression release. I have a higher compression Wiseco piston and a manual compression release - and most times my bike starts just fine without me using the compression release. About 1 in 100 starts the piston is on the compression stroke when I push the start button and the starter can't push the piston over TDC. With a stock piston I believe you will not have an issue.....as long as you don't ride in freezing weather that causes thick oil and poor battery power. |
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Title: Re: Top end damage and rebuild Post by Moarpower on 10/27/22 at 17:03:10 Thanks Dave. I'm based in Australia so I will never really get too many cold days but I am probably going to have to bore out to a 95 mm as the sleeve is at the higher end of its tolerance |
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Title: Re: Top end damage and rebuild Post by Moarpower on 10/27/22 at 22:25:56 Still no luck on replacement parts or a full engine. If any of you guys happen to have the spare parts please let me know. I was going to give up and part out the bike. But If i cant get the parts I'll turn it into something else and modify the frame for a 4 cylinder. I'm handy with a welder so it could be a fun project once my shoulders better after yesterdays surgery |
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Title: Re: Top end damage and rebuild Post by LANCER on 10/28/22 at 04:31:48 I’ve ran the 97mm Wiseco piston (the DR650 version, pop top style) for years without a decomp system and have had no starting issues. |
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Title: Re: Top end damage and rebuild Post by Moarpower on 10/28/22 at 04:51:42 Thanks for that Lancer. I ordered the 400 head. How does it run with that piston vs stock ? Noticeable power improvement? |
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Title: Re: Top end damage and rebuild Post by LANCER on 10/28/22 at 12:13:39 Yes. |
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Title: Re: Top end damage and rebuild Post by Moarpower on 10/28/22 at 15:30:55 Hello guys. These are the images of the 400 head. How do you think it looks? |
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Title: Re: Top end damage and rebuild Post by Moarpower on 10/28/22 at 15:31:21 And the cap |
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Title: Re: Top end damage and rebuild Post by Dave on 10/29/22 at 04:16:34 Head looks good. Don't run those rockers.....get the newer ones with the hardened pads. |
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Title: Re: Top end damage and rebuild Post by Moarpower on 10/29/22 at 04:20:34 Thanks Dave. Do you happen to know the part number ? Will need a new cam too. Would like to upgrade from the stock one. |
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Title: Re: Top end damage and rebuild Post by TheSneeze on 10/29/22 at 09:25:18 Get the cam from a '95 DR650. I have part numbers for both the cam and the rockers in my shop. When I am done with my coffee (and get out of my bunny slippers) I will get them and post them here. EDIT Cam p/n 12711-12D00 Rockers p/n 12840-24B10, 12850-24B10 |
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Title: Re: Top end damage and rebuild Post by Moarpower on 10/29/22 at 18:03:04 Thanks sneeze. I'll run that cam and new rockers and may need to bore and hone the cylinder. I'll go to 96mm I think. |
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Title: Re: Top end damage and rebuild Post by TheSneeze on 10/30/22 at 08:04:18 Depending on the piston you go with, you will need to check the valve to piston clearance to make sure you do not have any interference. You can alter the deck height by using different thickness cylinder base gaskets. There is a company in the US that will make different thickness copper gaskets to achieve this. |
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Title: Re: Top end damage and rebuild Post by DragBikeMike on 10/30/22 at 10:18:17 I suggest you find a parts fiche for the 400 and verify that the valves, guides, springs, retainers & cotters are the same as the 650. If any of those parts are different, you might have a valve travel problem. It would also be prudent to check the cam part number too. If the 650 has more lift than the 400 the valve components might not provide enough travel to accommodate the 650 cam. The 650 part numbers are: Cam 12711-24B11 Int valve 12911-24B01 Exh Valve 12912-24B01 Valve Guides 11115-44B70 Springs 12920-37402 Cotters 12932-82000 Retainers 12931-45001 Don't forget the rocker arms and rocker shafts. Cross reference those too. The exhaust rocker probably has a different part number due to the absence of the compression release. Make sure the shafts have the same part numbers or you might have a problem fitting the 650 rocker arms into the 400 head cover. |
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Title: Re: Top end damage and rebuild Post by Moarpower on 10/30/22 at 16:54:23 Thanks for that advice. From what I can find, which is tricky as the 400 was Asian markets only Cam - LS400 is listed as 1271124B04 which does match earlier revisions of the 650 Intake valve - match exhaust valve - match springs - match Valve rocker shafts - Int Exh both match Rockers - Both match. Thats all I could find after a quick search. Hopefully that means I'm in the clear. |
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Title: Re: Top end damage and rebuild Post by Moarpower on 10/30/22 at 22:34:15 I'm going to be opening the case next week. I just had shoulder surgery so need to give myself a little time to recover. As I'm rebuilding the top end and replacing the piston, what other things like bearings and seals should I replace while we are at it ? |
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Title: Re: Top end damage and rebuild Post by justin_o_guy2 on 10/31/22 at 10:36:13 If you had rotator cuff surgery you need more than a week, a lot more. |
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Title: Re: Top end damage and rebuild Post by Moarpower on 10/31/22 at 19:26:36 243B3D3A2720112111293B377C4E0 wrote:
Bicep and labrum tear. SO not as severe as RC thank god. I have decided to go for this piston from Wossner but wanted to see what you guys thought before I make the purchase. As this one is just under 97mm I may be able to get one more bore to 97mm with the Wiseco? If I keep it that long. https://www.firestormmotorcycles.com.au/suzuki-dr650-1990-1995-wossner-piston-kit-oversize~504193 Finding the DR650 cam is proving difficult as new parts are half what I paid for the bike. |
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