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Message started by Yazman on 09/23/22 at 14:17:07

Title: No spark, good coil, 12v @ coil, battery charged
Post by Yazman on 09/23/22 at 14:17:07

I'm getting pretty demoralized and hopeless. It's been about a week since my bike ran, and I've been working on it every day after I put the kids to bed.

First thing I did when I bought bike after starting it was power wash it, and it wouldn't start for a day after that. My brother-in-law who was the previous owner said that he got it wet once it wouldn't start for 4 days. I just never got the bike wet since and things were fine.

I tied it up some wiring on the left handlebar, and went to take a ride to my bike. Lights all came on like normal and it cranked fine, but it sounded like no spark at all. Pulled the spark plug boot, put a plug in it, and grounded it against the cylinder head and nothing. I've gone through four coils and no spark. I used my ohm meter on all the coils and they are good. I have 12.1v at both signal and power tab on the coil.

I checked the wires that run down by the pulley, and they seem fine up to the point they go inside the other housing (didn't pull that off because I just changed the oil). I cleaned up the engine ground down to bare metal just in case. I looked at the cdi, but I have no idea what I'm looking at or how to test it. I've checked almost all the plugs and wiring, and I don't see anything suspect. Otherwise, the bike acts completely like it does normally. All the lights and other functions are the same.

2011 RYCA bobber

Please help fellers!

Title: Re: No spark, good coil, 12v @ coil, battery charg
Post by Yazman on 09/23/22 at 14:27:04

I guess the thing I was looking at is the rectifier. I found the igniter box. It looks like it has aquarium gravel or something glued onto the back. I don't really know what to do here

Title: Re: No spark, good coil, 12v @ coil, battery charg
Post by verslagen1 on 09/23/22 at 15:26:20

If you know that the bike has a problem with getting wet, then that's the 1st place I'd start.

Check the connectors and make sure they're dry.
Being that there's no spark, I'd also check the timing sensor.
when you're cranking, what's the voltage on the battery?
if it drops below 10v, the TCI(CDI to some) will quit working.

Title: Re: No spark, good coil, 12v @ coil, battery charg
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 09/23/22 at 15:37:15

I don't own WD40.
It's Not a good lubricant or penetrating oil,it's Water Displacement.
You might want some. If I was fighting your fight, I'd be thinking about it.

Title: Re: No spark, good coil, 12v @ coil, battery charg
Post by Yazman on 09/23/22 at 15:40:39

Thanks Verslagen & justin_o_guy2 for your replies,

I'll check the voltage when cranking. I have been spraying WD40 in the connectors (still more to go) with no luck. The bike hasn't been wet since I washed it weeks ago though

How do I check the timing sensor? I'm going through the manual, but I don't see how.

Title: Re: No spark, good coil, 12v @ coil, battery charg
Post by Smith2 on 09/23/22 at 15:50:22

If the coil is good but no spark, have you checked you spark plug wire? It may have disconnected in the boot.

Title: Re: No spark, good coil, 12v @ coil, battery charg
Post by Yazman on 09/23/22 at 16:21:54

2A372A2530217476440 wrote:

If the coil is good but no spark, have you checked you spark plug wire? It may have disconnected in the boot.

Thanks, I checked the resistance from the trigger and power tab to the spark plug boot and I get about 22k ohms. It's within spec, so I think it should be good. I appreciate the help!

Title: Re: No spark, good coil, 12v @ coil, battery charg
Post by Yazman on 09/23/22 at 17:04:40

Battery dips to 10.8-10.9v while cranking

Title: Re: No spark, good coil, 12v @ coil, battery charg
Post by Yazman on 09/23/22 at 17:09:30

I think I may have found something! This box was stuck to the connector really hard. When I finally pried it apart, both the box blades and the connector were all gross and corroded. I'm going to try to clean it up and see if it works. What is this thing if I need to replace it?

Title: Re: No spark, good coil, 12v @ coil, battery charg
Post by Yazman on 09/23/22 at 17:32:10

Nope. Cleaned it with a Dremel and nothing. Also sprayed every connecter, and nothing. I guess I'm looking at CDI/ignition box or pulse thing? Hope it's not the box, I see them going for $200-300 used :o

Title: Re: No spark, good coil, 12v @ coil, battery charg
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 09/23/22 at 17:54:52

Bummer

Title: Re: No spark, good coil, 12v @ coil, battery charg
Post by DragBikeMike on 09/23/22 at 18:05:08

Those are some crusty lookin spades. You are on the right track. I wouldn't be using a pressure washer on your bike. I never turn a hose on mine. Just use a bucket and a wet towel to wipe the beast down every now and then.

I believe you have the old-style igniter unit. Your bike is an 87 right?

The old-style igniters should have nine active spades. Does your picture cut off some of the spades? I could be wrong, but there are probably ten spades on the old-style igniters, nine are active and one is not used. This illustration identifies the active spades.

Title: Re: No spark, good coil, 12v @ coil, battery charg
Post by DragBikeMike on 09/23/22 at 18:09:13

The illustration doesn't show a spade at the upper right-hand corner, but your picture shows a spade in the upper right-hand corner. I'm guessin that the spade in question is inactive.

So, assuming that the illustration agrees with your igniter unit, then the spade in location #6 is not used, or inactive. Your spade at location #7 looks burnt. I circled it in green.

Title: Re: No spark, good coil, 12v @ coil, battery charg
Post by Yazman on 09/23/22 at 18:13:31

The box that has the crusty connectors is actually a small box a bit larger than a 9v battery. It's not the CDI ignitor that has the corroded stuff. I'm not sure what that small box is.

Title: Re: No spark, good coil, 12v @ coil, battery charg
Post by DragBikeMike on 09/23/22 at 18:19:04

See how that spade is black. The factory service manual identifies spade #7 as connecting to the black wire that goes to the starter motor hot cable. So that pin #7 gets hotted up when you run the starter. That might be useful info.

Can you post a picture of the entire spade socket, a picture that shows all of your spade connectors on the igniter unit?

BTW, the fact that your #7 spade is black doesn't necessarily mean that it is burnt. The black coloration could simply be corrosion or some other crud. Your plan to clean the spades and their female counterparts is the way to go. Very interested to hear how that works out, and I'm also very curious about what your full igniter socket looks like, exactly how many spades are in there, condition of all the spades, condition of the female connecter terminals, etc.

Good luck.

Title: Re: No spark, good coil, 12v @ coil, battery charg
Post by DragBikeMike on 09/23/22 at 18:25:37

Would this be the box in question? Was it located directly above the carburetor? Five wires going to the box (ooops, six wires on the older models)? If yes, that is the decompression relay.

Howzabout posting pics of your igniter unit spades? I can see you have a pic of the box in the earlier post, can you shoot a pic of the spades and socket?

What year is your bike? I must be confused. Thought you had an 87 model. I think I have you mixed up with another member.

Title: Re: No spark, good coil, 12v @ coil, battery charg
Post by Yazman on 09/23/22 at 19:08:36

DBM, I think you may be right, it does look like the decompression relay you picture. Which is odd, because I don't even have a decompression solenoid with the RYCA conversion. The corroded box in question has a black wire with a white stripe, a red wire with a white stripe, a yellow wire with a green stripe, a black wire with a red stripe, and a yellow wire with a black stripe. It's 1.5 by 1.5 x 1 in.

I have a 2011. I've attached a picture of my igniter connector below:

Title: Re: No spark, good coil, 12v @ coil, battery charg
Post by Yazman on 09/23/22 at 19:12:14

Here's a picture of the back side of my igniter connector. It has two holes plugged, a black wire with white stripe, a black wire with yellow stripe, an orange wire, a green wire, an orange with white stripe, and a black wire:

Title: Re: No spark, good coil, 12v @ coil, battery charg
Post by verslagen1 on 09/23/22 at 21:49:19

5E667D6A6669070 wrote:

The box that has the crusty connectors is actually a small box a bit larger than a 9v battery. It's not the CDI ignitor that has the corroded stuff. I'm not sure what that small box is.

I think that's the side stand relay, not sure but about the right size.
And you said it was about the size of a 9v battery.
Located on left side under the tank.
I does handle the igniter power so could be cause of low voltage/no spark.

Title: Re: No spark, good coil, 12v @ coil, battery charg
Post by DragBikeMike on 09/24/22 at 02:11:31

Thanks, I obviously had you confused with another member. You can ignore my comments in reply #11, #12 & #14. Those pertain to the early model ignition unit that utilized 9 pins. Your 2011 model has the late model ignitor unit that utilizes 8 pins, just like your picture shows.

Yes, your picture in reply #8 shows the connector for the decompression controller, six pins, five wires (red/white, yellow/black, black/white, yellow/green & black/red). That controller has two relays inside, one to energize the decompression solenoid, and one to energize the starter relay switch. So, I suspect that the starter will still function even if the decomp solenoid has been removed. Your engine cranks so I suspect you can rule out the decomp controller.

Versy, the side stand relay only has four pins. It does hot up the engine "stop" switch, but the engine "stop" switch then hots up the starter button. So, if the side stand relay was interrupting power to the ignition system, it would also interrupt power to the starter button. If that's the case, it shouldn't crank. Do I have that correct?

Is this a Ryca cafe? Do the Ryca kits change out the switch assemblies on the hand controls?

This sketch of the late model igniter unit pins may be useful. It will show you which wires go to which pins, and tell you where the wires go to on the other end.

Title: Re: No spark, good coil, 12v @ coil, battery charg
Post by Yazman on 09/24/22 at 04:23:50

I appreciate the help man! I'll have to trace those wires and make sure they're good. So it looks like maybe 3 possibilities:

1) Ignitor (bye-bye $300-500)

2) Pulse thing inside right cover (I can drain oil, ohm it out)

3) Shorted/cut wiring between ignitor and whatever things it goes to

Sounds right?

Title: Re: No spark, good coil, 12v @ coil, battery charg
Post by verslagen1 on 09/24/22 at 07:50:09

19213A2D212E400 wrote:

1) 2011? used TCI's should be available on fleabay.
2) you don't need to drain oil, the connector is near the TCI box.
3) check the wiring coming up near the belt, that's where it usually get eaten.

Title: Re: No spark, good coil, 12v @ coil, battery charg
Post by DragBikeMike on 09/24/22 at 10:51:58

These checks might be helpful, but you need a multi-meter to do them. If you don't have a multi-meter, spring a few bucks and buy one. Digital display is generally safer than analog.

Ignition coil:

Primary windings, spade connector to spade connector, 1 to 7 ohms

Secondary windings, sparkplug lead to spade connector, 10K - 25K ohms

Igniter Unit Connector Plug:

Black/white wire pin to engine case, zero resistance

Orange/white wire pin should show 12V when key is on, clutch pulled in, sidestand down, trans in neutral

Black wire pin should show 12V when key is on, clutch pulled in, sidestand down, trans in neutral, starter button depressed

Orange wire pin to green wire pin (ignition pickup) 200 - 240 ohms. Don't try and crank the engine with your meter hooked up to these pins. Just check the static resistance.

This picture shows the connector plug. Just unplug it to do the checks outlined above.

Title: Re: No spark, good coil, 12v @ coil, battery charg
Post by DragBikeMike on 09/24/22 at 10:53:16

Connect your meter to these female terminals in the connector plug. When checking voltage at the orange/white wire and at the black wire, the black lead from your meter should be connected to the engine case, and the red lead from your meter should be connected to the connector plug terminal under test.

Title: Re: No spark, good coil, 12v @ coil, battery charg
Post by Yazman on 09/24/22 at 12:26:39

Thanks again for the help!

Here are the readings for all of the above, keeping in mind the resistance of the meter itself measured at 0.8 ohms

Coil (all 3 checked out good)

4.8 ohms primary
21,100 oms secondary

Plug

202 ohms orange to green (same further down at the other connector)
0.08 ohms black w white
12.08v orange w white
10.28-10.46v black wire while cranking

Battery

12.7v

I found a dealer 4 hours away that has an ignitor box for $800. No joke. Half the vehicles I've ever owned have been purchased for less than that! I pray that is not the part I need. I called the tri-state area at every part and salvage store I could find, and nobody has one. Not a single used one to be found. There's a roached out one on fleabay that's like 200 bucks. The case is cracked wide open and it doesn't say if it works or not.

Title: Re: No spark, good coil, 12v @ coil, battery charg
Post by Yazman on 09/25/22 at 15:20:47

The starter relay, positive cable end, and negative cable end looked gross. So, I cut them back and cleaned up all the terminals. The black wire on the ignitor connector now has 10.71-10.89v, but still no spark.

It must be the ignition box at this point, right?

Title: Re: No spark, good coil, 12v @ coil, battery charg
Post by DragBikeMike on 09/25/22 at 18:48:21

You might wanna try measuring the voltage at the igniter plug orange/white pin while you crank the engine. See how low the voltage goes at that pin while cranking. Key on, clutch pulled in, sidestand down, trans in neutral, starter button depressed.

That will tell you how much voltage is being provided to the igniter box and the coil while cranking.

You're in a pickle. You have pretty much checked everything you can. I can't recall if you tried a new sparkplug. It's a long shot but I have seen it before. Even with a new plug. The plug looks perfect, but it won't fire. Had an experience last year with a Honda Grom. Brand new plug, had spark when you laid it on the cylinder head, but screw it into the plug hole and subject it to compression and it wouldn't fire. Had me and a buddy pullin our hair out for a while. Brand new plug solved the problem. Seems too good to be true but it's worth a try. Have you tried a new sparkplug.

If I recall correctly (something I have difficulty doin), this thing was running. What all did you do to it since the last time it ran? Did you have the alternator cover off? Is there a chance that the igniter pickup got damaged or has too much air gap?

Title: Re: No spark, good coil, 12v @ coil, battery charg
Post by DragBikeMike on 09/25/22 at 19:02:57

Ah, I see it was running and then you power washed it. Did you direct the high-pressure water at the pulley cover, into the pulley cover, onto the pulley, or the underside of the bike below the pulley? You may have forced water into the wire bundle for the magnetic pickup. That seems like a longshot since your continuity reading is good, but you may have an issue with insulation resistance to ground.

Check your insulation resistance to ground for the magnetic pickup. Connect the black wire from your meter to the engine block. Then connect the red meter wire to the orange pin in the igniter plug. Resistance should be infinity or very, very high (like megohms high).

Same thing for the green wire in the igniter plug. Meter black lead to engine block. Meter red lead to the green wire pin in the igniter plug. Resistance should be infinity or very, very high (megohms high).

Title: Re: No spark, good coil, 12v @ coil, battery charg
Post by Yazman on 09/25/22 at 19:17:23

I power washed it when I first got it (a month or so ago), and it wouldn't start for a day, and then cranked up the next day. After that, I never had a problem again. I rode it for weeks everywhere and it was flawless. I tidied up some wiring on the left handlebar, went to start it up, and all of a sudden, no spark. I've tried a few different plugs, and well as the old screwdriver in the boot. I'm gonna bite the bullet and shell out $200 for a used ignitor. I don't know what else to do but throw parts at it.

Title: Re: No spark, good coil, 12v @ coil, battery charg
Post by DragBikeMike on 09/25/22 at 19:19:17

Here you can see the bulkhead packing for the alternator stator wires and the mag pickup wires. You may have forced water into the packing, or into the wire bundle running to the igniter unit and voltage regulator.

Your brother-in-law had trouble when he washed it, now you have the same trouble. I would be lookin hard at places you might have forced water into electrical connectors, plugs, packing, components, etc.

Did you direct high-pressure water at the igniter unit?

Title: Re: No spark, good coil, 12v @ coil, battery charg
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 09/26/22 at 09:25:45

As many times as the spray can said
Shut off and spray rinse,I Always leave it running.
That way, if it dies, I know where I was spraying.

Maybe a heat lamp?

Title: Re: No spark, good coil, 12v @ coil, battery charg
Post by Yazman on 09/26/22 at 09:37:41

I think I should probably clarify that the last time it got wet was about a month ago, and it was running fine up until a week or so ago. I'm skeptical moisture is causing my problem, since it hasn't seen a drop in weeks. Additionally, I sprayed out every connector with WD40 for good measure.

The only reason I mentioned the power washing from a month ago, was that maybe whatever was getting wet finally took a dump, even though it was dry when it did take a dump.

Perhaps the PO left the key on, and the transistor in the ignitor was damaged and worked intermittently?

Title: Re: No spark, good coil, 12v @ coil, battery charg
Post by Yoshi on 09/26/22 at 19:32:59

You said tri state, are you near NY? I can let you borrow a cdi for troubleshooting if needed
Txt me 5164731900

Title: Re: No spark, good coil, 12v @ coil, battery charg
Post by Yazman on 09/27/22 at 11:22:07

7D6C7D4448464C5F5E46442D0 wrote:

You said tri state, are you near NY? I can let you borrow a cdi for troubleshooting if needed
Txt me 5164731900

Thanks man! That's super cool of you. I ordered one from evilBay that should be here in two days, so I'll just sit tight. Fingers crossed! Or else there will be a RYCA S40 for sale ;)

Title: Re: No spark, good coil, 12v @ coil, battery charg
Post by Yazman on 09/28/22 at 19:41:53

SUCCESS! New (used) ignitor did the trick. Any chance of fixing the old one? I can't even figure out how to get it open. I've read about people replacing the transistor in there. I'd love not to pay $200-$800 next time this one goes out!

Title: Re: No spark, good coil, 12v @ coil, battery charg
Post by DragBikeMike on 09/28/22 at 19:51:16

Superb news. Congrats.

Can you do us all a BIG favor? I just did a post on igniter box checkout. Could you check out your old igniter box following the guidance in that post? Maybe let us all know how it goes. It would be very beneficial to all of us if we had some idea if a bad igniter box has resistance/continuity values that vary significantly from the values I got on my wringout. Might make it a lot easier for others to troubleshoot in the future.

Good job.

Title: Re: No spark, good coil, 12v @ coil, battery charg
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 09/29/22 at 05:41:43

Glad to hear you have Won!