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SuzukiSavage.com
/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> Clutch slipping in 1st under WOT? /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1640447310 Message started by och on 12/25/21 at 07:48:30 |
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Title: Clutch slipping in 1st under WOT? Post by och on 12/25/21 at 07:48:30 I believe it was always the case with my bike ever since I got it new in 2016 - when taking off hard from a dead stop, it feels like there is some slipping in the clutch in the first gear. If I'm easy on the throttle till about 10mph, and then open it up, there is no slipping. Is it normal? |
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Title: Re: Clutch slipping in 1st under WOT? Post by ckahleer on 12/25/21 at 08:02:46 I is usually high gear at WOT that a clutch begins to slip. |
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Title: Re: Clutch slipping in 1st under WOT? Post by och on 12/25/21 at 08:09:45 38303A33373E3E295B0 wrote:
Everything is fine in 2nd-5th gears. I'm not sure if what I am describing is clutch slipping, but basically from a dead stop at WOT, it feels like it takes off and stays at 3-4000rpm, instead of gradually increasing RPMs when I'm gentle on the throttle. |
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Title: Re: Clutch slipping in 1st under WOT? Post by verslagen1 on 12/25/21 at 09:03:31 So basically you're over powering the clutch before it gets a grip. Once it's got a grip it's fine. Is it the same cold or hot? I'd have to say someone might have used car oil at one point or another. And you'll probably have to disassemble the clutch and scour the contact surfaces. |
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Title: Re: Clutch slipping in 1st under WOT? Post by och on 12/25/21 at 09:26:02 3E2D3A3B24292F2D2679480 wrote:
Yes, overpowering the clutch sounds about right. The bike only has 3k, and I believe it was always behaving like this since I bought it new. I've done two oil changes on it, both myself, using genuine Suzuki synthetic oil/filter kit. |
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Title: Re: Clutch slipping in 1st under WOT? Post by och on 12/25/21 at 09:28:04 And yeah, its the same regarding whether its hot or cold. |
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Title: Re: Clutch slipping in 1st under WOT? Post by Evanswv on 12/26/21 at 05:47:56 I wonder if it could be spinning the tire some. |
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Title: Re: Clutch slipping in 1st under WOT? Post by och on 12/26/21 at 07:29:09 LOL, not with my fat 230lb ass on it! |
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Title: Re: Clutch slipping in 1st under WOT? Post by verslagen1 on 12/26/21 at 07:54:51 There are a couple of things to check before opening it up. Cable adjustment, make sure you have a gap in the lever about wide enough for a nickle to slip into. If you don't have any slack, it will affect the clutch. Position of the lever on the case, when you pull up on it, it should be between the marks on the case. This is an indication of clutch wear. |
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Title: Re: Clutch slipping in 1st under WOT? Post by och on 12/26/21 at 08:02:31 I'm thinking maybe its because I'm relatively heavy at 230lbs, and I sit all the way back on the passenger part of the seat, so with all the load over the rear wheel perhaps that's what causes the clutch to slip. |
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Title: Re: Clutch slipping in 1st under WOT? Post by verslagen1 on 12/26/21 at 11:07:53 only if you fully compressed the shocks and lock the tire up on the fender. Or do you ride w/out a fender and seat? ooh |
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Title: Re: Clutch slipping in 1st under WOT? Post by TheSneeze on 12/26/21 at 11:17:06 2F2328400 wrote:
I think you should still follow Versy's advice about the adjustments and verify everything is correct (if you haven't already). |
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Title: Re: Clutch slipping in 1st under WOT? Post by justin_o_guy2 on 12/26/21 at 12:10:11 The lever needs to swing free a bit before you feel tension on the cable. You are a big guy, so you probably blip the throttle and start letting the clutch out. Then you probably goose it when you feel the clutch enter the friction zone, to keep it running. I'd bet that if you played it easy getting it to ten mph and had the clutch lever all the way out and then pinned its ears back, it would not slip. |
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Title: Re: Clutch slipping in 1st under WOT? Post by justin_o_guy2 on 12/26/21 at 14:21:24 BTW,I'm nowhere Near your weight and if I rip away from a stop I can feel when the clutch finally locks up. Slipping, according to my definition, is increasing rpm without a corresponding increase in speed. That is a symptom of a polluted, maladjusted or worn clutch that will show up in higher gears. I don't think you have a problem. It's a good thing you're paying attention to how it acts. Make sure the adjustment is right and think about what I said. A pickup driven without a trailer would give a longer clutch life than one that always had ten thousand pounds to launch at every stop,right! Operate it accordingly. Or, GOOSE it and giggle,, and be prepared for maintenance. Enjoy your bike,man! |
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Title: Re: Clutch slipping in 1st under WOT? Post by och on 12/26/21 at 15:04:07 4A5570777D74786B72190 wrote:
I think you should still follow Versy's advice about the adjustments and verify everything is correct (if you haven't already). [/quote] I definitely will, and I thank everyone for the advice! |
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Title: Re: Clutch slipping in 1st under WOT? Post by och on 12/26/21 at 15:05:09 0A151314090E3F0F3F07151952600 wrote:
Thats pretty much what is happening. |
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Title: Re: Clutch slipping in 1st under WOT? Post by och on 03/19/23 at 16:54:34 I recently realized the my clutch is no longer slipping. I went back to mineral oil in October/November of last year, and the issue went away. It was only happening with Synthetic Suzuki and Luqui Moly oils. I think I will stick to mineral oil from now on. |
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Title: Re: Clutch slipping in 1st under WOT? Post by ThumperPaul on 03/24/23 at 09:08:50 4549422A0 wrote:
I was going to suggest Shell Rotella T4 (dino juice) with zinc (ZDDP additive) before I read your update. I had almost the exact same issue you described when I was using Motorcycle-specific Valvoline synthetic (thought I was doing the bike a favor). My clutch slippage vanished within 50 miles of switching to Shell Rotella. Much cheaper too - like $17/gallon at Walmart. |
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Title: Re: Clutch slipping in 1st under WOT? Post by och on 03/24/23 at 10:37:00 526E736B7663745667736A060 wrote:
I was going to suggest Shell Rotella T4 (dino juice) with zinc (ZDDP additive) before I read your update. I had almost the exact same issue you described when I was using Motorcycle-specific Valvoline synthetic (thought I was doing the bike a favor). My clutch slippage vanished within 50 miles of switching to Shell Rotella. Much cheaper too - like $17/gallon at Walmart. [/quote] Yep, I too was thinking I was doing the bike a favor with the synthetic oil, turns out it like dino juice better. I will most definitely try the Shell oil for my next oil change. What is the recommended oil change interval with mineral oil? I used to do 2-3k on older cars with dino, and 5k on cars with synthetic. |
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Title: Re: Clutch slipping in 1st under WOT? Post by ThumperPaul on 03/24/23 at 10:49:39 I change about every 1k miles (frequently). I also consider total engine run time and not just miles. I'm probably a frequent oil changer and every 2k would probably be fine. But for about $9 an oil change without filter, why not. I only replace the filter every other oil change. |
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Title: Re: Clutch slipping in 1st under WOT? Post by och on 03/24/23 at 11:00:05 0A362B332E3B2C0E3F2B325E0 wrote:
But here is a dilemma, since the clutch is slipping with synthetic and does not slip with mineral oil, it means that synthetic oil is indeed more slippery, and is probably good for the rotating parts inside the engine, but not good for the clutch. |
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Title: Re: Clutch slipping in 1st under WOT? Post by ThumperPaul on 03/24/23 at 11:54:24 59555E360 wrote:
But here is a dilemma, since the clutch is slipping with synthetic and does not slip with mineral oil, it means that synthetic oil is indeed more slippery, and is probably good for the rotating parts inside the engine, but not good for the clutch. [/quote] Why I'm a believer in frequent oil changes. You're not going to lose much lubricating quality at 1k change intervals. You know this - an engine's worse enemy is an insufficient quantity of oil, causing low oil pressure, and oil not reaching the top of the valve train (don't overfill either, that blows gaskets). I use 15W-40 in Houston. Synthetic does collect more impurities - it is significantly darker quicker than conventional oil. Coincidentally, I just changed my oil today. The old dino juice still felt really good and it was a nice golden brown (not tar black). |
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Title: Re: Clutch slipping in 1st under WOT? Post by och on 03/24/23 at 12:58:16 Quote:
Good info. The engine and the rest of the components were designed for mineral oil anyway, so I'll just continue using it. Right now I have the Suzuki branded oil in it, but on the next oil change I will try the Shell product you recommended. |
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Title: Re: Clutch slipping in 1st under WOT? Post by ThumperPaul on 03/24/23 at 13:31:40 The wise old gurus on this forum convinced me that Shell Rotella with ZDDP is THE JUICE! The bikes were designed and developed in the pre-historic era (before the internet) and never argue against ancient wisdom! |
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Title: Re: Clutch slipping in 1st under WOT? Post by justin_o_guy2 on 03/24/23 at 15:05:42 I'm pretty opinionated, but when someone has well over 100,000 miles on a motor, I'm probably going to ask What oil do you use? What filter? How often do you change oil? Filter? For me, I ran dino. The oil usage changes as miles build. When oil use got bothersome to keep up with, I dumped the oil. |
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Title: Re: Clutch slipping in 1st under WOT? Post by ThumperPaul on 03/24/23 at 17:04:24 Let the oil war begin! Lol |
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Title: Re: Clutch slipping in 1st under WOT? Post by och on 04/15/23 at 11:33:33 I think my clutch is fried, with just over 6k on the clock. As I explained in my original post, at first I was having an issue with the clutch slipping under hard acceleration from dead stop - up to about 10mph, after which it would lock up and had did not slip at all even at WOT up to its top speed. I don't know if it was doing it since day one, this is my first bike that I bought new and learned to ride on, so I can't account for the first 1-2k miles, but it was most certainly happening after the first 2k miles onward. The bike hasn't been ridden much over the years, but I remember doing the first oil change at 1k with Suzuki synthetic, the 2nd oil change at around 2.5k also with Suzuki synthetic, and then at about 4,5k with Liqui Moly synthetic motorcycle oil. Then last year when I was battling a leak, I switched to Suzuki mineral oil, and coincidentally the problem seemed to go away. The clutch now locks up right from the dig and the bike pulls hard. Right now I am sitting at about 6.5k, and a new problem has developed. Two weeks ago I went for a nice long ride and I noticed at going around top speed, 78-80 mph, increasing throttle slightly was sometimes causing the RPMs to jump up, as if the clutch was pulled in. Where the highway had any sort of incline, it was impossible to make the bike reach 80, it would top out at 78ish at WOT, and it just felt weird, as if the engine wasn't transferring all of its power to the wheel. It didn't cross my mind that it may be the clutch, I thought that maybe the air was less dense since I was riding through the Pocono mountains. Then for the last two weeks I've been playing with my carb and rejetting it with the kit that Lancer sent me. I got the engine running well, but now my clutch is certainly slipping really bad. It is not slipping from the dig, but if I'm riding steady at low to mid RPMs in any gear, and give it moderate to high throttle, RPMs just jump up as if the clutch lever is being pulled in. I have to very gradually increase the throttle to keep the clutch engaged and make the bike accelerate. I understand the clutch job on this bike is not very difficult. Should I go with OEM parts, or is there anything better? |
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Title: Re: Clutch slipping in 1st under WOT? Post by och on 04/15/23 at 12:27:45 Ah crap, it gets worse! Just went to see if the bike has oil, put it vertical on a 2.5 inch block, and nothing in the sight glass. I had somewhere between 1/3 to 1/2 quart sitting in the garage, added it and still no oil to be seen. I might be down as much as a quart. Last oil change was at exactly 5k in November of last year, right now the bike is sitting with exactly 6200 miles, so I'm down so much in just 1200 miles. Last few oil changes, it did not consume any oil at all with the synthetic oils, even with the leak that I had it wasn't significant enough to reflect any drop in oil level. I think I am going back to Liqui Moly. Hope I haven't caused any permanent damage to the engine or to the clutch. |
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Title: Re: Clutch slipping in 1st under WOT? Post by ThumperPaul on 04/15/23 at 13:08:01 3E3239510 wrote:
I think you are getting gas in the crankcase (like carb flooding). When this happens, the bike will consume massive amounts of oil fast. It will also make your clutch act totally messed up (glazed plates). I had this happen once. I resolved the flooding, changed the oil with Rotella T4 and my clutch was able to salvage itself after a couple hundred miles. Drain the oil and give it a whiff, it will be thin if gassy, and you'll kinda see it. That's my guess. |
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Title: Re: Clutch slipping in 1st under WOT? Post by och on 04/15/23 at 13:26:04 665A475F4257406253475E320 wrote:
I think you are getting gas in the crankcase (like carb flooding). When this happens, the bike will consume massive amounts of oil fast. It will also make your clutch act totally messed up (glazed plates). I had this happen once. I resolved the flooding, changed the oil with Rotella T4 and my clutch was able to salvage itself after a couple hundred miles. Drain the oil and give it a whiff, it will be thin if gassy, and you'll kinda see it. That's my guess. [/quote] Thank you, I will check for signs of gas in the oil when I do the oil change. I was most definitely running lean before, with the stock 52.5/145 carb setup and dyna muffler, and my header discolored really bad. I just rejet my carb to 50/150, and I took a quick ride and the bike felt like it is running substantially cooler than it did in the past. I also read through some previous posts on here, and it seems that our bikes tend to use up oil when running at high speeds. That ride I mentioned two weeks ago, I spent about 14 hours and almost 400 miles in the saddle - I set out with a bunch of my Harley buddies, and we did about 200 miles of highway, doing 85ish, so I was basically running wide open for a couple of hours. This is when I started experiencing the slippage. I will definitely keep an eye on my oil levels from now on, will check before every ride. |
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Title: Re: Clutch slipping in 1st under WOT? Post by ThumperPaul on 04/15/23 at 13:43:39 It would take a pretty good carb flooding for it to be what I described. Did the bike ever seriously flood since the last oil change? It would take something pretty noticeable. Dang on the 85mph for 2 hours! I have no experience on these bikes doing that! That might be the culprit, but that still seems like a lot of oil consumption. Good luck. I’m outta ideas. Maybe somebody else with more experience with these bikes can weigh in. |
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Title: Re: Clutch slipping in 1st under WOT? Post by och on 04/15/23 at 15:36:52 063A273F2237200233273E520 wrote:
Nah, I don't think there were any major flooding, if any, I think it may be just running the engine under high stress for a prolonged time. I know this bike isn't made for high speeds, but man it keeps up like a champ, and I'm having way more fun on it than the Harley guys have on theirs - they are just cruising their large displacement bikes at that speed, while mine feels like racing. But I'm a bit worried about the consumption, because in the past I have ran it at WOT for 30-50ish mile distances, and ran it hard in the twisties with the sport bike riders, but it never consumed any oil. I wonder if mineral oil is more prone to consumption. Now that I am thinking about it, I do smell burnt oil occasionally, and burn mineral oil has this very specific smell that reminds me of sunflower oil when its burning. Synthetic doesn't have this smell when it burns. |
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Title: Re: Clutch slipping in 1st under WOT? Post by ThumperPaul on 04/15/23 at 16:48:46 I hope it’s not this, but it’s the first place I’d look. http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1099227295 |
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Title: Re: Clutch slipping in 1st under WOT? Post by och on 04/15/23 at 17:03:27 7C405D45584D5A78495D44280 wrote:
Nope, no leaks here. I had a major leak last year from the starter o-ring, but that has been fixed, and not a drop anywhere ever since. My fork is leaking, but that is another story that I will take care of. |
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Title: Re: Clutch slipping in 1st under WOT? Post by och on 04/16/23 at 19:46:46 To revisit this, can low oil level cause the clutch to slip, or is it likely to be fried by now? |
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Title: Re: Clutch slipping in 1st under WOT? Post by verslagen1 on 04/16/23 at 22:36:47 I don't think so. low oil causes rougher shifting, which might be from the clutch not fully disengaging. slipping usually caused by low spring force or bad adjustment |
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Title: Re: Clutch slipping in 1st under WOT? Post by och on 04/20/23 at 16:27:11 Oil just came in, added almost an entire quart, so at least 1.25 quart total added, meaning I was running the bike with .5 to .75 quart last time. Thats bad. |
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Title: Re: Clutch slipping in 1st under WOT? Post by ThumperPaul on 04/20/23 at 16:39:23 Ya think? |
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Title: Re: Clutch slipping in 1st under WOT? Post by ThumperPaul on 04/20/23 at 16:44:58 And the math of you doing 85mph for 2 hours doesn’t make sense either. That would be 170 miles and beyond the fuel capacity of the bike even riding 65mph for 2 hours. You are beyond an oil change. |
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Title: Re: Clutch slipping in 1st under WOT? Post by ThumperPaul on 04/20/23 at 16:55:13 And yes, your clutch is beyond slipping. Hope your carb is health and you aren’t blowing smoke. No smoke - outta oil to do that. Good luck and may the force be with you. |
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Title: Re: Clutch slipping in 1st under WOT? Post by och on 04/20/23 at 16:59:37 7D415C44594C5B79485C45290 wrote:
We did make a short fuel stop. I was getting terrible mileage too, about 25mpg at that speed. |
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Title: Re: Clutch slipping in 1st under WOT? Post by justin_o_guy2 on 04/20/23 at 19:34:56 Yeah, once you factor in the time at Zero mph to get gas it starts making sense to run slower and get better mileage and it will take less time to get there. |
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Title: Re: Clutch slipping in 1st under WOT? Post by och on 05/01/23 at 12:54:41 Been riding quite a bit today, and my clutch is done. Anything past 60 mph, twist the throttle moderately hard and its just slipping. Have to ease in the throttle to keep accelerating past 60mph. I changed the oil over the weekend, went with synthetic Liqui Moly, will keep an eye on the level. |
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Title: Re: Clutch slipping in 1st under WOT? Post by och on 05/01/23 at 12:55:33 How long can I expect the clutch to last before it completely cuts out? Can you guys recommend what I need to purchase when I'm ready to do the repair? |
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Title: Re: Clutch slipping in 1st under WOT? Post by Gary_in_NJ on 05/01/23 at 13:04:54 202C274F0 wrote:
Using an oil with a high Moly concentration will CAUSE the clutch to slip. Can can only assume that it has a high concentration given it's name. You need to use a motorcycle oil that is formulated specifically for wet clutches or Shell Rotella which has proven to be safe for wet clutches. When you did your oil change, did you inspect the oil for clutch plate friction material? Did it look almost silver or like someone added sparkles? |
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Title: Re: Clutch slipping in 1st under WOT? Post by och on 05/01/23 at 13:18:35 5E54505A51585C550B0D09390 wrote:
Using an oil with a high Moly concentration will CAUSE the clutch to slip. Can can only assume that it has a high concentration given it's name. You need to use a motorcycle oil that is formulated specifically for wet clutches or Shell Rotella which has proven to be safe for wet clutches. When you did your oil change, did you inspect the oil for clutch plate friction material? Did it look almost silver or like someone added sparkles? [/quote] Liqui Moly is the brand, its synthetic motorcycle oil. The clutch started slipping with mineral Suzuki oil in it. I dont know if I saw any sparkles, but the oil was pretty dark, considering that I added over a quart and replaced it almost immediately after. I still have the oil in the drain pain, I'll shake it up and get a sample for a closer look, but either way my clutch is toast. http://https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71bmXc3lYyS._AC_SL1200_.jpg |
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Title: Re: Clutch slipping in 1st under WOT? Post by Gary_in_NJ on 05/01/23 at 16:41:03 Strange name for a motorcycle oil. I didn’t realize you we’re outside the US. Look in the bottom of the pan. |
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Title: Re: Clutch slipping in 1st under WOT? Post by och on 05/01/23 at 17:07:16 43494D474C454148161014240 wrote:
I am in US, NYC. Liqui Moly is a German oil company, they make a lot of different oils, not just motorcycle oils. |
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Title: Re: Clutch slipping in 1st under WOT? Post by Gary_in_NJ on 05/01/23 at 19:24:31 $20 a quart! I am so happy I’m not in the oil cult. All of the bikes in my signature run perfectly on Rotella…$20 for 5 quarts. |
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Title: Re: Clutch slipping in 1st under WOT? Post by och on 05/01/23 at 20:03:52 575D59535851555C020400300 wrote:
I'm not in a cult, I'm experimenting. Last oil change I did was at 5k with Suzuki mineral oil, and by 6k I got clutch slippage and was down over a quart. I am still trying to wrap my head around what the hell happened, the bike does not leak and does not seem to burn any oil. |
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Title: Re: Clutch slipping in 1st under WOT? Post by och on 05/01/23 at 20:07:50 Either way, looks like I'll be doing the clutch on the bike in the near future, i see there is Barnett kit on Amazon. I heard they are better than OEM? https://www.amazon.com/Barnett-Complete-Clutch-Suzuki-Savage/dp/B07YCVNZ2C |
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Title: Re: Clutch slipping in 1st under WOT? Post by och on 05/02/23 at 19:44:48 Can you guys recommend the clutch kit I should go with? There is the OEM part number LS650CLKIT2 - it has all the springs, clutch plates, and even a new gasket. There is also a barnett kit, EBC kit, and a bunch of very cheap ebay kits. I read that barnett doesn't last as long as OEM? There was also a thread saying there are different legths OEM rods, and a longer rod work better? |
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Title: Re: Clutch slipping in 1st under WOT? Post by Gary_in_NJ on 05/03/23 at 05:10:06 OEM - don't go cheap on a job you only want to do once - by once, cry once. |
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Title: Re: Clutch slipping in 1st under WOT? Post by och on 05/03/23 at 05:42:05 616B6F656E67636A343236060 wrote:
I have no problem getting the OEM, its not that expensive, its just a little concerning how my original clutch only lasted 6k miles. I really don't do anything that could potentially damage the clutch, other than once in a while cruising at close to top speed. I do generally run the bike pretty hard, but it shouldn't affect the clutch to the best of my understanding, as long as I am not letting it slip. I read that Barnett springs are 13% stiffer than OEM, so I imagine if I was to use oem plates with Barnett springs, they should be locked together tighter and so there will be less chance for slippage and the clutch should last longer. What kind of adverse effects can I expect from stiffer springs? And I am trying to get an understanding on the clutch rod - Suzuki sells three different size rods. What does the rod do, what are the benefits of a longer vs shorter rod? |
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Title: Re: Clutch slipping in 1st under WOT? Post by verslagen1 on 05/03/23 at 07:01:38 68646F070 wrote:
slightly stiffer clutch lever, just lube the cable good and you won't notice it. Quote:
the 3 lengths accommodate clutch plate wear. choose the right one for the amount of wear. Pick the one that sticks out of the spider about 12 to 12.5mm. at 13mm, the clutch is pushed in and won't engage. I imagine this varies a bit from engine to engine, but it's always worked for me. |
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Title: Re: Clutch slipping in 1st under WOT? Post by och on 05/03/23 at 08:28:29 Thank you, that makes sense about the rod. I think I will go with the Barnett clutch over OEM, if it bites harder it should technically last me a longer time than OEM. Versy, I'll need to also get your tensioner while I'm at it, I'm just not ready to plunge on the clutch and the tensioner just yet. |
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Title: Re: Clutch slipping in 1st under WOT? Post by verslagen1 on 05/03/23 at 10:29:42 717D761E0 wrote:
I have 0 stock right now and I'll have to raise prices on new assy's for bidens inflation. |
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Title: Re: Clutch slipping in 1st under WOT? Post by och on 05/03/23 at 10:37:13 Great news, lol. |
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Title: Re: Clutch slipping in 1st under WOT? Post by och on 05/03/23 at 10:46:39 4A594E4F505D5B59520D3C0 wrote:
I have 0 stock right now and I'll have to raise prices on new assy's for bidens inflation.[/quote] Essentially you just weld on a piece of plate to it? I can probably do it myself, I have a tig welder, if you share the template. |
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Title: Re: Clutch slipping in 1st under WOT? Post by DragBikeMike on 05/05/23 at 10:38:57 "What kind of adverse effects can I expect from stiffer springs" |
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Title: Re: Clutch slipping in 1st under WOT? Post by DragBikeMike on 05/05/23 at 10:47:24 The Barnett springs should not present a problem as long as you don't change the stack height of the clutch pack. The Barnet pack is very close in height to the stock pack. The Barnett springs have a lot more available travel, so you won't have any issues with coil bind. I doubt you will have any problems. If you want to be safe, contact Sneezy for one of his way cool clutch release cams. They are twice as strong as the stock cam. It will give you that extra measure of comfort. This post did a pretty good study on the clutch assembly and finished up with a full test of the Sneezy's release cam. That release cam is good as gold. http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1615547049 |
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Title: Re: Clutch slipping in 1st under WOT? Post by och on 05/05/23 at 16:35:31 Yep, I saw that post, skipped through the thread, but I am not prepared to do all this work. For now I'll just replace the clutch with Barnett, and I should be good, hopefully it outlasts my original clutch by a good margin. |
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Title: Re: Clutch slipping in 1st under WOT? Post by justin_o_guy2 on 05/06/23 at 07:36:08 Some clutch cams break even if you have not changed anything. They are sintered metal and they included a ninety degree inside corner with No radius to spread stresses out. Changing the cam is nothing. It's a good idea to replace the O-Ring on the shaft. Watching oil keep that area wet is irritating.. |
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Title: Re: Clutch slipping in 1st under WOT? Post by DragBikeMike on 05/06/23 at 11:39:02 OCH, my intent was not for you to do the DR hub mod. I thought the info on clutch pushrod setup, spring pressure & travel, and release cam upgrade and testing would be useful to you. As I recall, you mentioned that your clutch started slipping at very low mileage. That sounds unusual. You also don't sound like you are the type that runs the guts out of a motorcycle. That seems inconsistent with a slipping clutch problem at low mileage. So, I suspect your slippage was due to either incorrect adjustment, or some issue with oil. As the friction plates wear, the release plate moves outward, toward the release cam. That moves the pushrod closer to the cam, and in turn gobbles up any free play in the release mechanism. That's why the pushrods come in various lengths. As time goes on, there will be no more free play and the release mechanism will prevent the clutch from locking up. At that point, you need to install a shorter pushrod. So, you install a shorter pushrod to re-center the release arm between the marks on the engine case. I believe my old post provides the gory details on that particular adjustment. |
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Title: Re: Clutch slipping in 1st under WOT? Post by och on 05/06/23 at 15:56:18 Thanks Mike. Since I am replacing all the springs and plates, I imagine I should stay with the original length pushrod, which is what I intend to do. As far as my clutch failing so early, I have no idea how it happened. It was always slipping from a dead stop up to 10mph, from what I can tell, but then it stopped doing it for a while and started slipping at higher speeds/rpms. Right now it bites tight from a stop, but accelerating past 70 is almost impossible, any moderate amount of throttle and it just slips. My only theory is switching from synthetic back to mineral oil might have caused some kind of reaction that made the clutch fail prematurely, otherwise I have no idea. Most likely it was simply not set properly from the factory. |
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Title: Re: Clutch slipping in 1st under WOT? Post by och on 05/18/23 at 17:53:39 Replaced the clutch with the Barnett kit. No more slipping, but because the springs are longer and firmed it takes more effort to pull in the clutch lever, more effort to switch gears, and its virtually impossible to shift into neutral. |
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Title: Re: Clutch slipping in 1st under WOT? Post by justin_o_guy2 on 05/18/23 at 22:38:21 Naah,, the transmission will shift without using the clutch, it's Not easy to get the first to second shift, too big of a jump, but you can go from second to fifth and down to neutral without ever pulling the lever. Gotta shift with some Gusto, Coordinate the toe with a quick Throttle Off, immediate shift throttle on. Downshift? Gotta get the gas set to Not load the gears step down and goose it, Just a quick bump, You can do that all the down to neutral, |
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Title: Re: Clutch slipping in 1st under WOT? Post by Surviving Philly on 05/19/23 at 08:03:25 434F442C0 wrote:
Och did you replace the clutch cable as well? If you did make sure you lubricate it -- when I put my Barnett kit in with springs it was very hard to actuate the clutch untill I remembered I needed to lubricate my new cable! |
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Title: Re: Clutch slipping in 1st under WOT? Post by justin_o_guy2 on 05/19/23 at 09:13:22 Routing is important, too. |
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Title: Re: Clutch slipping in 1st under WOT? Post by och on 05/20/23 at 05:48:55 I have. relatively new stainless braided clutch cable, its working fine. I notice when the engine is running and hot, its impossible to find neutral - the shifter takes more effort to switch 1-2 and 2-1 than it used to, and it just skips neutral. When the engine is off and cold, finding neutral is very easy. |
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Title: Re: Clutch slipping in 1st under WOT? Post by justin_o_guy2 on 05/20/23 at 10:10:18 the shifter takes more effort to switch 1-2 and 2-1 than it used to, and it just skips neutral Because it's harder to get it to move, your foot, once the shifter starts moving, runs past neutral. Just a guess.. I'm wondering what is binding up when it's up to temperature. |
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Title: Re: Clutch slipping in 1st under WOT? Post by DragBikeMike on 05/21/23 at 03:45:16 "Since I am replacing all the springs and plates, I imagine I should stay with the original length pushrod, which is what I intend to do." You should base your pushrod selection on the release arm position; nothing else, just the position of the release arm. Your clutch is dragging. Did you check the release arm position? Just place a large crescent wrench on the release arm and let the weight of the wrench take all the free play out of the release mechanism. Don't push on the wrench, just let the weight of the wrench do the work. The release arm should be centered in between the raised marks on the engine case. If the release arm is too low, you need a shorter pushrod. If the release arm is too high, you need a longer pushrod. Note that as the clutch wears the release arm position will move lower. |
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Title: Re: Clutch slipping in 1st under WOT? Post by DragBikeMike on 05/21/23 at 03:46:58 Are you sure you assembled the wave washer correctly? |
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Title: Re: Clutch slipping in 1st under WOT? Post by DragBikeMike on 05/21/23 at 03:48:26 Did you verify that all the steel plates are flat? Warped steel plates cause the clutch to drag. You need to check them on a surface plate. |
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Title: Re: Clutch slipping in 1st under WOT? Post by DragBikeMike on 05/21/23 at 03:51:52 The clutch basket and primary driven gear have a bronze bushing. Is that bushing in good condition. If the bronze bushing has a burr or galling, it drags on the spacer that it runs on, which tries to turn the input shaft. The end result is identical to clutch drag. Hard shifting, difficulty finding neutral. |
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Title: Re: Clutch slipping in 1st under WOT? Post by DragBikeMike on 05/21/23 at 03:56:21 Did you check the clutch basket for axial play? It should have about .008" - .010" axial play. The basket is captured between the two washers. Make sure the larger diameter washer is against the input shaft ball bearing, and the smaller diameter washer is against the clutch hub. The yellow arrow indicates the space between the washers. If that space is too small the clutch will bind and drag. |
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Title: Re: Clutch slipping in 1st under WOT? Post by DragBikeMike on 05/21/23 at 04:01:14 Install the basket, washers, spacer & hub. Leave out the pressure disc and the plates. Tighten the hub nut. Verify that the basket can move in & out about .008" to .010", and verify that the basket turns free on the spacer/journal. |
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Title: Re: Clutch slipping in 1st under WOT? Post by DragBikeMike on 05/21/23 at 04:03:19 As I recall, your engine is basically stock. You shouldn't need those heavy springs. You might try running stock springs to see if they eliminate the drag. |
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Title: Re: Clutch slipping in 1st under WOT? Post by och on 05/21/23 at 17:46:39 I didnt do the work myself, I had a shop do it, but they are a reputable shop. I'll see what happens in the next few weeks as I break in the clutch. |
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Title: Re: Clutch slipping in 1st under WOT? Post by DragBikeMike on 05/23/23 at 03:37:00 Why don't you take it back to the shop? At least go on record as having a problem with the clutch. It shouldn't drag. |
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Title: Re: Clutch slipping in 1st under WOT? Post by och on 05/23/23 at 09:59:10 Yeah, its definitely dragging. Stalled in the first today at a red light with the clutch lever pulled all the way in. Seems to drag only in 1st gear though, and 1-2 and 2-1 shifts are hard, 2-5 and 5-2 are effortless. |
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Title: Re: Clutch slipping in 1st under WOT? Post by och on 05/23/23 at 10:10:24 I spoke to the shop owner, he is claiming Barnett springs are longer and firmer than OEM and this is why its binding. Does that sound legit? |
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Title: Re: Clutch slipping in 1st under WOT? Post by justin_o_guy2 on 05/23/23 at 14:23:06 You are not the first to buy them. Unless they changed something, I'm pretty sure they fit. You might need to get one out and crush it to coil bind, or could the problem be the length of the rod? Have you tried not bringing the lever to the handlebars? Stock clutch allows shifting with very little pull on it. See if you can roll it, in gear, without pulling it all the way. Maybe a cable adjustment will let you work with it. |
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Title: Re: Clutch slipping in 1st under WOT? Post by verslagen1 on 05/23/23 at 14:57:43 it sounds like your clutch might not be properly adjusted. there's not a lot of extra throw in the lever and being slightly off will cause it to drag. take a look at the lever on the case for the clutch. behind it you'll see 2 marks that show the range the clutch works in. at rest, the lever will drop towards the bottom one and when pulled in may rise above the top one. use your hand and pull up the lever just to take out the freeplay, approximately where's the lever? the lower the better. is there a lot of freeplay? less is better but none and you're clutch will slip. at this point you're not looking at cable adjustment, we're trying to determine the throw rod length. too short a throw rod and you'll reduce the clutch travel. too long and the clutch will slip. |
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Title: Re: Clutch slipping in 1st under WOT? Post by och on 05/24/23 at 05:59:41 Ok, so played with the clutch lever adjustment and the adjustment on the clutch arm on the engine this morning - they are not the issue. Even if I completely eliminate any free play, it still acts the same exact way. The clutch is dragging in 1st and in 2nd, and with the engine running 1-2 and 2-1 shifts take a lot of effort, and its impossible to catch neutral. When sitting at a stop the clutch is dragging slightly, and then longer you sit as the temperature goes up it drags more and more, RPMs start to drop and I even stalled a few times. Shut off the engine, and once it cooled down for a minute or more and the shifts are effortless. To add insult to the injury, look what happened while I was messing with the clutch arm. Completely demoralizing. http://https://i.imgur.com/FpTX4YD.jpg |
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Title: Re: Clutch slipping in 1st under WOT? Post by verslagen1 on 05/24/23 at 07:13:26 If you still have the piece that broke off, find somebody that can weld with that low temp aluminum stuff. |
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Title: Re: Clutch slipping in 1st under WOT? Post by och on 05/24/23 at 07:55:49 2C3F2829363B3D3F346B5A0 wrote:
Yeah, well, I happen to own a metal shop where we can weld anything, so I fixed it already. But I'm wondering on the fix for the dragging clutch. Can it really be caused by firmer and longer Barnett springs, or is it a lame excuse? What would be a proper way to fix it? Is it a matter of getting a longer/shorter rod? http://https://i.imgur.com/zJzPIUI.jpg |
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Title: Re: Clutch slipping in 1st under WOT? Post by verslagen1 on 05/24/23 at 09:23:08 2529224A0 wrote:
I think it's an excuse, maybe not entirely lame. the springs are stiffer and will cause everything to be stressed more, so the real cause may just be peeking out from under a rock a bit and will bite you in the a$$ when you're not looking. if your clutch is slipping, you need the stiffer springs. if you don't have enough throw, you need to look at a longer throw out rod to get it in the optimal range. the only other thing would be the cable. |
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Title: Re: Clutch slipping in 1st under WOT? Post by och on 05/24/23 at 09:50:13 6B786F6E717C7A78732C1D0 wrote:
I think it's an excuse, maybe not entirely lame. the springs are stiffer and will cause everything to be stressed more, so the real cause may just be peeking out from under a rock a bit and will bite you in the a$$ when you're not looking. if your clutch is slipping, you need the stiffer springs. if you don't have enough throw, you need to look at a longer throw out rod to get it in the optimal range. the only other thing would be the cable.[/quote] The original clutch was slipping, that's why I had replaced it with a Barnett kit. I did not replace the rod or anything else. It is not the matter of the cable adjustment, I've been trying to adjust it every which way today, it is still dragging no matter what I do. |
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Title: Re: Clutch slipping in 1st under WOT? Post by justin_o_guy2 on 05/24/23 at 09:55:32 Any chance the clutch pack isn't set up right? |
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Title: Re: Clutch slipping in 1st under WOT? Post by och on 05/24/23 at 10:55:11 No idea. I will bring it to the mechanic to take another look at, meanwhile I ordered a set of OEM springs and longer + shorter rods just in case. |
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Title: Re: Clutch slipping in 1st under WOT? Post by ohiomoto on 05/24/23 at 19:03:10 05030C70727571410 wrote:
My money is on this or the push rod. These are nuances of this bike that your mechanic might not be familiar with. |
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Title: Re: Clutch slipping in 1st under WOT? Post by justin_o_guy2 on 05/25/23 at 04:53:08 Unless he Knows this bike, since he didn't take it apart, he might not know it even if he's looking straight at the problem. You need a book,or some body to who knows this bike to tell you if you got it right. I'm thinking we need Pictures,, |
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Title: Re: Clutch slipping in 1st under WOT? Post by och on 05/25/23 at 05:03:44 Yeah, that can certainly be a concern, he's a general mechanic working on all sorts of bikes, mostly Harleys. I'll get the new parts and he'll try to fix it, hopefully it works out. In the end of the day, the bike is rideable as is, but I'm concerned with the type of wear I am putting on the new clutch when its dragging at a stop. |
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Title: Re: Clutch slipping in 1st under WOT? Post by och on 06/04/23 at 18:04:08 So I have put about 300 miles on the bike since the clutch replacement, and this it is still binding. Also, with the stronger springs the bike loves to pop wheelies - get hard on the throttle from the stop and the front pops up easily. I can live with the way it is now, but I wonder if I am putting a lot of wear on the new clutch because it is dragging? |
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