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Message started by TBR125 on 12/24/21 at 17:25:58

Title: 2013 S40 budget Scrambler Build
Post by TBR125 on 12/24/21 at 17:25:58

Hi, I'm converting my 2013 S40 to a scrambler/adventure layout and will be sharing my progress and hopefully the final bike by the end of next year. I will load pictures as soon as I can figure how.

I've already installed 15" rear shocks raising the back to the max height possible without idler pulleys and am looking for a way to lower the front end an inch or two without shortening the travel. Is there a bolt on triple clamp from another bike that I could slide the tubes up through? I looked at drilling out the top OEM clamp but would then have a single pinch bolt per shock which worries me. I'd love to hear any thoughts, advice, suggestions or opinions from you guys. I'm open to anything that doesn't require a machinist. I'm a poor welder but subsequently I've become a master grinder ;D

Title: Re: 2013 S40 budget Scrambler Build
Post by Armen on 12/24/21 at 20:01:51

Best of luck with the project. You can convert the lower tree in to an upper with a little bit of work. That'll give you the ability to slide the tubes up and have pinch bolts. The info is somewhere in the tech section.

Title: Re: 2013 S40 budget Scrambler Build
Post by TBR125 on 12/24/21 at 21:36:44

Thanks, I'll look into that.

Title: Re: 2013 S40 budget Scrambler Build
Post by TheSneeze on 12/24/21 at 21:52:46

You will need to press the steering stem out of the lower (shop press), and drill out the hole to fit the stem (drill press with right size drill). Then you can lower the front by sliding the forks through. Looks better if you grind off the steering stop tabs and polish them down to flush. A little bit of work, but worth it if you have the tools. Here are a couple links.

http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?board=RubberSideDown;action=display;num=1187872966;start=

http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1289315334/0

Title: Re: 2013 S40 budget Scrambler Build
Post by Dave on 12/25/21 at 03:15:00

I was in the same process if lowering the front for a "Standard" style bike I am building. I discovered that if I raise the fork tubes 2" the tops interfere with where the handlebars would be located.

So I have sent my forks to get them lowered by cutting off 2" and re-threading the tops of the fork - it has been more than 5 months and I still haven't got them back. Evidently the machinist doesn't like cutting threads.

I have a top clamp of either style that I can sell you if you want to pursue dropping the tubes.

http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1614946050/0#4

Title: Re: 2013 S40 budget Scrambler Build
Post by ohiomoto on 12/25/21 at 04:53:25

Dave, I had the same problem getting my fork tubes shortened. I had to beg him to get them done. The end result was perfect, but I thought I was going to have to buy new tubes at one point.

Title: Re: 2013 S40 budget Scrambler Build
Post by SpamyToo on 12/25/21 at 05:03:34

1A0520272D24283B22490 wrote:

Or save yourself a ton of time and labor and buy a better looking new triple clamp. Just another option.

https://dcmotive.com/products/suzuki-ls650-s40-savage-flat-pinch-triple-clamp

Title: Re: 2013 S40 budget Scrambler Build
Post by ohiomoto on 12/25/21 at 05:10:12

I love you clamps spamy!

I choose to have my fork tubes shorted for the reason dave mentioned above. I think your clamp with taller risers would work well though.

Title: Re: 2013 S40 budget Scrambler Build
Post by ohiomoto on 12/25/21 at 05:23:53

TBR125,

Most cafe/brat/tracker/scrambler builds on here add 2" to the rear shocks and lower the forks 2". That's 4 inches of "leveling"

You have added 4" to the rear, so maybe you will find the stock front end is fine.

Title: Re: 2013 S40 budget Scrambler Build
Post by Gary_in_NJ on 12/25/21 at 11:37:58

I’m thinking that the belt will be rubbing on the swingarm with 15” shocks.

Title: Re: 2013 S40 budget Scrambler Build
Post by Dave on 12/25/21 at 14:33:06

I have always felt the 340mm shocks (approx 13.4") to be about the maximum length shock you can use. The changes in belt tension as the shocks compress is tolerable with the 340mm.....I don't know if the belt tension will change too much with 15" shocks.

Title: Re: 2013 S40 budget Scrambler Build
Post by TBR125 on 12/25/21 at 19:15:28

1C2F3038335D0 wrote:

I found a lower triple clamp on Ebay for $11 and will repurpose it for the top. I didn't realize how many used parts are available for the S40. I've been used to having to scour the web in search of parts for my Taiwanese bike.

Title: Re: 2013 S40 budget Scrambler Build
Post by TBR125 on 12/25/21 at 19:21:55

[/quote]

Or save yourself a ton of time and labor and buy a better looking new triple clamp. Just another option.

https://dcmotive.com/products/suzuki-ls650-s40-savage-flat-pinch-triple-clamp
[/quote]

That's an awesome looking clamp! Think I'll mod a lower for the experience and inexpense. I spend 30hrs a week grinding ductile iron castings so I'm all for chop and grind mods. :)

Title: Re: 2013 S40 budget Scrambler Build
Post by TBR125 on 12/25/21 at 19:28:46

585F5E585A584358370 wrote:

After checking the geometry I think you're right, needs no more than 1 inch drop if any. I was looking to lessen the rake but also trying to keep the ground clearance up. Some extra preload to lessen the 3 inches sag and heavier fork oil should finish the front end off pretty well.

Title: Re: 2013 S40 budget Scrambler Build
Post by TBR125 on 12/25/21 at 19:34:01

545E5A505B52565F010703330 wrote:

I’m thinking that the belt will be rubbing on the swingarm with 15” shocks.

I'll have to check the actual span but with nominal 15" shocks Ive got 3/16 clearance over the pivot at max unloaded extension. That is after cutting and grinding the belt guard brackets. I wouldn't be comfortable with that little on a chain set-up but I think with the belt it might ride ok. An unexpected clearance issue is an 8mm bolt on the engine case that contacts the side of the belt. shortening the bolt head a little and spacing the crank and drive pulleys out should fix that.

Title: Re: 2013 S40 budget Scrambler Build
Post by TBR125 on 12/25/21 at 19:36:26

1A212C3B2A263D3B2028253A490 wrote:

I was concerned about the tension but as I'm primarily looking for ground clearance not travel Ive got rubber bumper travel limits on the strut shafts. The tension range now seems ok.

Title: Re: 2013 S40 budget Scrambler Build
Post by Armen on 12/25/21 at 21:53:35

I did 18" wheels front and rear, and longer shocks. Really changes everything.
I call it 'Genre reassignment surgery"

Title: Re: 2013 S40 budget Scrambler Build
Post by TheSneeze on 12/26/21 at 07:15:57

This is mine after the 18" wheel conversion.

Title: Re: 2013 S40 budget Scrambler Build
Post by Armen on 12/26/21 at 07:37:32

Mine with 18" wheels and longer shocks.

Title: Re: 2013 S40 budget Scrambler Build
Post by TBR125 on 12/26/21 at 13:41:01

152639313A540 wrote:

Mine with 18" wheels and longer shocks.

That's a beautiful bike. I love the mid-set controls and clean exhaust joint, almost looks like a one piece. I found out too late that we have a 2 piece header pipe which will make my exhaust install a little more fun:) I'll be running the original 19" front and a 17" rear for more dual-sport/adventure tire options once my current tire wears out.

Did you delete the speedo/odo altogether or route it off the front? I'm using a 3.5 gallon tank and will need to relocate the odo.

Title: Re: 2013 S40 budget Scrambler Build
Post by TBR125 on 12/26/21 at 13:45:20

Have your RFY shocks been working well? I got the gold ones because they were the cheapest color option but one of mine wouldn't extend between successive bumps as if there was no rebound. It might have been a defective unit.

Title: Re: 2013 S40 budget Scrambler Build
Post by Armen on 12/26/21 at 13:50:24

I did a KOSO one piece speedo/Tach/ODO/etc.
Those shocks are crap. They started leaking onto the tire before I put a mile on the bike.
Once I finish the whole flog, I’ll pony up for real shocks.
I’ve proved to myself over and over that you get what you pay for in shocks.
The rear sets are from RYCA. RYCA isn’t doing Savage stuff anymore, which is a shame. The mounting bracket is a huge hunk of steel.
I had to mod the left side for more clearance.
Only about a million hours into this build.

Title: Re: 2013 S40 budget Scrambler Build
Post by TBR125 on 12/26/21 at 14:25:38

What a shame, I really liked the looks and low cost of those units. I've been very pleased with the progressive hydraulic units even though a little heavier and costly. I think they make a 12 or 13 length.

Title: Re: 2013 S40 budget Scrambler Build
Post by Armen on 12/26/21 at 14:35:47

Hey, ya get what you pay for. Years ago I figured I couldn’t tell the difference between a $400 and a $1,000 shock, so I bought a cheap shock for one of my bikes. Only had damping and preload adjustment. Tried everything including different springs. Still crap. Ended up spending almost $1K for an Ohlins. Then I ‘got it’.
The idea that magically there is a wonderful really cheap shock is one of the enduring fantasies of broke bike builders.
Truth is, so many people have no idea what a good shock feels like. Worked on a million 70’s CB Hondas with all kinds of hipster mods and the original Craptastic shocks. Always suggested real shocks. Usually just got a blank look from the owners.

Title: Re: 2013 S40 budget Scrambler Build
Post by TBR125 on 12/26/21 at 14:55:13

Guilty as charged ;D The progressive units were only $240 so may still be on the sub-acceptable end of the scale. I grew up driving a Lifan 200cc 1/2 ton cargo 3-wheeler with bench seats for 10+driver so my performance expectations are pretty low.

Title: Re: 2013 S40 budget Scrambler Build
Post by TBR125 on 01/01/22 at 19:23:08

What jets would get me in the ballpark to begin tuning my stock engine with a K&N filter on a vm36 round slide and a fairly free flowing exhaust mounted on a 30 inch header? I've jetted several of the stock vacuum type carbs on other bikes but am new to the round slides. Thanks in advance for any info.

Title: Re: 2013 S40 budget Scrambler Build
Post by ohiomoto on 01/02/22 at 18:26:02

5B68777F741A0 wrote:

Mine with 18" wheels and longer shocks.

---------
Looking good Armen!

Title: Re: 2013 S40 budget Scrambler Build
Post by TBR125 on 01/02/22 at 18:55:34

Finally getting some pics posted. This is the bike soon after I got it.

Title: Re: 2013 S40 budget Scrambler Build
Post by TBR125 on 01/02/22 at 19:05:25

Then after a little bit of lift and still working on some geometry technicalities. such as the kick stand ;D

Title: Re: 2013 S40 budget Scrambler Build
Post by TBR125 on 01/02/22 at 19:14:53

As one of you mentioned the belt tension on 15 inch shocks is excessive. I thought of a possible solution and would like some thoughts on it. If the belt were raised under the swing-arm to match the top angle so it is equidistant at 90 degrees from the swing-arm pivot point would the tension problem be removed? It makes sense and the mock up seemed to work but I'm still not sure if I'm missing something.

Title: Re: 2013 S40 budget Scrambler Build
Post by TBR125 on 01/02/22 at 19:19:36

I checked the tension of the full swing-arm range with the suspension removed and the concept seems to work. I'd fabricate it with an idler pulley suspended from the swing-arm bolt.

Title: Re: 2013 S40 budget Scrambler Build
Post by ohiomoto on 01/02/22 at 19:23:09

Chain rollers that do what you desire are common on motocross bikes.

http://https://www.dirtbikexpress.co.uk/images/products//28785_3_l.jpg

Title: Re: 2013 S40 budget Scrambler Build
Post by TBR125 on 01/02/22 at 19:32:56

Thanks, I assume the same concept would apply for a belt?

Title: Re: 2013 S40 budget Scrambler Build
Post by Dave on 01/03/22 at 03:08:02

My motocross bike back in the 70's had a little rubber wheel and tensioner that was in constant contact with the chain to control slack. It worked fine but it had to be replaced occasionally as it wore - I have no idea how many miles it lasted - however I would guess that an average speed of 15 miles an hour and a top speed of 60mph on a 125cc dirt bike is a reasonable guess (My BMW street bike keeps track of my average speed and it is only 38 mph, as the stop signs and rural road riding all take a toll on the average).

I have never been a fan of "idler pulleys" on a street driven motorcycle. Asking a skate board wheel to hold up on a motorcycle that is going to be ridden at highway speeds is asking a lot of the tiny wheels that are designed to operate at far lower speeds. The tiny wheels and even smaller bearings are going to be spinning really fast! You see these little idler wheels used on a lot of bobbers, choppers and show bikes - but how many of these bikes get any miles put on them? I try to keep modifications reliable and not be prone to failing when I am far from home.....when we are on rides in TN/NC/GA/AZ I don't want to have a failure that gets me stranded along the side of the road.

If you have to use an idler I would not intentionally design it to be in contact with the belt or chain continually - it would be better if it only spun during the points of extreme swing arm travel (up or down). That way it will only be working part time and not spinning like mad when you are going 60mph or more down the highway. That roller that OhioMoto showed is likely only in contact during the period the shocks are fully extended and as the shocks compress the contact is less.

And if you do use an idler and actually ride the bike far from home - take a spare idler and a wrench! ;)

Title: Re: 2013 S40 budget Scrambler Build
Post by Edub on 01/08/22 at 15:25:29

40564625262139222124140 wrote:

Thanks, I assume the same concept would apply for a belt?

Yes, Buell used an idler pulley on their XB-series bikes, worked really well on them. XB9, XB12, and Ulysses. I’m sure you’ll be able to find photos online.

EDIT: go to the link below, scroll to message #108. You can clearly see the factory supplied idler pulley. These are street bikes with a LOT more power than a Savage would ever have, and the idlers are generally not a problem.

https://advrider.com/f/threads/buell-ulysses-drive-belt-life.546118/page-6

Title: Re: 2013 S40 budget Scrambler Build
Post by TBR125 on 01/09/22 at 11:42:48

Thanks.

Title: Re: 2013 S40 budget Scrambler Build
Post by TBR125 on 02/15/22 at 09:17:57

Finally several months later, enough progress has been made for an update.

The top triple clamp has been roughed out with a burr and will be finished during final fitting. The 4in1 brand 3.4 gallon E-bay tank fits well with plenty of clearance under the bars with 4 inches of rise and 2 inch mounts. I will be cutting the seat narrower and bending the sub-frame once I finish the backing plates for the mid mount controls.

What intake manifolds are you guys using for the VM36 carb? The stock is a 40mm I think.

Title: Re: 2013 S40 budget Scrambler Build
Post by TBR125 on 02/15/22 at 09:19:38

And the quick grind for the lower triple clamp conversion. The steering tube hole looks off center but that is just the picture angle

Title: Re: 2013 S40 budget Scrambler Build
Post by TBR125 on 02/15/22 at 09:20:33

Pic 2

Title: Re: 2013 S40 budget Scrambler Build
Post by Edub on 02/20/22 at 00:18:11

Looking good, TBR125! Did you end up solving the belt tensioner dilemma?

Title: Re: 2013 S40 budget Scrambler Build
Post by LANCER on 02/21/22 at 17:53:26

For the VM 36 round slide carb start with a #20 pilot and a #200 main jet, with the needle clip on the middle (3rd) groove; fine tune from there.

You asked about the intake used...are you referring to the rubber mounting flange ? If so, you will need:
Mikuni part # M-VM-36-200K or
Sudco part # 002-054
Retail: ~ $35

Title: Re: 2013 S40 budget Scrambler Build
Post by TBR125 on 02/22/22 at 22:18:48

0D2C3D2A480 wrote:

Looking good, TBR125! Did you end up solving the belt tensioner dilemma?

Thanks. Yes, I'm still working on the dimensions though to work it into the mid set control unit bracket.

Title: Re: 2013 S40 budget Scrambler Build
Post by TBR125 on 02/22/22 at 22:24:52

404D424F495E1E1B2C0 wrote:

Thanks. That is what I was looking for. Would you recommend using the Thunder performance UFO, does it make a noticeable difference? I was given one left over from a snowmobile build.

Title: Re: 2013 S40 budget Scrambler Build
Post by LANCER on 02/23/22 at 07:58:30

0A1C0C6F6C6B73686B6E5E0 wrote:

[quote author=404D424F495E1E1B2C0 link=1640395558/30#40 date=1645494806]For the VM 36 round slide carb start with a #20 pilot and a #200 main jet, with the needle clip on the middle (3rd) groove; fine tune from there.

You asked about the intake used...are you referring to the rubber mounting flange ? If so, you will need:
Mikuni part # M-VM-36-200K or
Sudco part # 002-054
Retail: ~ $35

Thanks. That is what I was looking for. Would you recommend using the Thunder performance UFO, does it make a noticeable difference? I was given one left over from a snowmobile build.
[/quote]

I like the UFO, when properly installed and tuned it will improve low-mid throttle range performance, although the jetting and tuning is a bit more involved. You will need to change the needle jet along with pilot and main jet adjustments.
Also, the UFO’s made for the VM carbs on snowmobiles is different in shape to the newer UFO’s made for the carb we use (VM36-4). If that is the carb you have then you will need the UFO 3638-1.
If you have questions on installation PM me.