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SuzukiSavage.com
/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> Engine replacement /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1638182477 Message started by Ludolalo on 11/29/21 at 02:41:17 |
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Title: Engine replacement Post by Ludolalo on 11/29/21 at 02:41:17 Hello guys ! I just bought a Suzuki ls650 boulevard s40 2011 with 14000km on it. Yesterday, before winter, I added a bit of fuel stabiliser in the tank and ran the motor for a few minutes. I wanted to revv the engine a few times before I place the bike to rest for the nexts winter months. The thing is. After giving gaz for less than a second. The engine exploded with metal parts flying around in the garage. I still don't know what happens. Oil spilled all around. Thank god nobody was hurt. Now I know I will have to replace the engine. Do you have any suggestions ? Is it only the ls650 that fits there or do I have other options if I want to buy a new engine? Thank you guys ! |
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Title: Re: Engine replacement Post by Dave on 11/29/21 at 03:04:34 Yikes! That looks like the counterbalancer came loose and created a mess. Doe the counterbalance shaft bearings look to be intact....or are the balls distributed unevenly around the perimeter? Where are you located? Obtaining used engines in the US is pretty easy thanks to eBay and/or Craigslist. |
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Title: Re: Engine replacement Post by Ludolalo on 11/29/21 at 03:12:58 Hard to say, I don't know much about engines. But obviously this one is broken, I'll eventually open it apart it will be an opportunity for me to learn about it a bit. I'll try to find what went wrong. I'll look for the counterbalancer I'm in Canada. I'll call Suzuki today to see if the have replacement engines and the price. |
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Title: Re: Engine replacement Post by Gary_in_NJ on 11/29/21 at 05:56:13 That's the second time we've seen that type of failure in the last few years. Can you tell us about any recent maintenance? When was the oil and filter last changed? |
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Title: Re: Engine replacement Post by Ludolalo on 11/29/21 at 09:35:34 I bought the bike 2 weeks ago. Made 50km with it. Everything went fine. But the second time I started the bike it exploded. The guy told me he just made the oil change by a professional a few weeks before. I believe what he told me. Just by the color of the oil, I know it's not old. Haven't. Looked at the filter yet. I will contact him back just to know more details. |
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Title: Re: Engine replacement Post by justin_o_guy2 on 11/29/21 at 10:45:59 Pretty sure that will buff out. |
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Title: Re: Engine replacement Post by DragBikeMike on 11/29/21 at 14:58:03 Wow! RIP Thanks for the photo. You might wanna review this old post about a similar failure. http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1593294582/0 The general consensus here was that particular failure was due to an over torqued primary drive nut. It's a left-hand nut, easy to screw up when trying to remove it. Another common mistake is to tighten with a rattle-wrench. Torque wrench only on the primary drive gear nut. The over torque results in a fractured cam drive sprocket which then leads to the balancer timing gear getting out of phase. It's a long story. The old post provides the gory details. This is a failed cam drive sprocket. |
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Title: Re: Engine replacement Post by DragBikeMike on 11/29/21 at 15:01:45 I know you have your hands full with this engine failure, but I am sure that ALL of us would appreciate more info and photos. It will help us help you. Can you please follow up with more info and questions. Dave mentioned the balancer shaft bearing. I can see it in your picture, and it looks like it might be missing some balls. |
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Title: Re: Engine replacement Post by DragBikeMike on 11/29/21 at 15:04:48 If that bearing fails the result is what you currently have on your hands. Can you take some pics of that bearing that's hanging out the left side of you case. We would like to see if all the balls are in place and if the ball cage is missing. I can see what looks to be a piece of heavy wire sticking out the front. Is that in fact wire or is it a bead of sealant? |
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Title: Re: Engine replacement Post by DragBikeMike on 11/29/21 at 15:05:57 There is some similar wire looking stuff up top. That's what leads me to believe it might be sealant. |
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Title: Re: Engine replacement Post by DragBikeMike on 11/29/21 at 15:13:02 Was your engine making any sort of unusual noise? I know you only rode it a short way but 50km should have been enough to notice any ugly cacophony. |
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Title: Re: Engine replacement Post by Gary_in_NJ on 11/29/21 at 16:24:45 I wonder if the seller put together a garbage can engine…in haste. He may have over torqued the nut. |
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Title: Re: Engine replacement Post by verslagen1 on 11/29/21 at 17:41:31 The crack looks odd to me, may be porosity. Are there any signs of an impact? maybe from a crash or someone dropped the engine? |
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Title: Re: Engine replacement Post by Ruttly on 11/30/21 at 10:58:20 Definitely over torqued ! Don’t ask how I know ! Torque wrench ONLY ! |
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Title: Re: Engine replacement Post by ohiomoto on 11/30/21 at 16:17:23 416667677F6A130 wrote:
---------------------------- How do you know Ruttly?! How do you know? Huh? How do you know? |
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Title: Re: Engine replacement Post by Ludolalo on 12/01/21 at 03:48:35 The bike is at my father's so I'll be able to start working on it and take more picture in the weekend. This was my first bike ever. I am thinking about buying an other boulevard s40 and use this one for the pieces but I have to admit that now something makes me anxious about buying an other one. This engine usually makes a good run? Should I buy an other model? Looks hard to find a use engine here at a reasonable price. |
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Title: Re: Engine replacement Post by Gary_in_NJ on 12/01/21 at 05:35:26 It’s a tough call. If you can’t find an engine locally shipping can make a used engine economically unviable. You may be able to find a wrecked or damaged bike and harvest the engine from it. Another option is an insurance auction. If none of those pan out over the next few months, than a new bike may be the best option. Did you buy this bike from a dealer or private party? If it’s from a dealer they may be legally obligated to refund your money. |
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Title: Re: Engine replacement Post by justin_o_guy2 on 12/01/21 at 15:59:29 Don't allow this rare problem sour you on these bikes. We have guys with over 100,000 miles on theirs. Someone already said that if someone over torqued a particular part inside there, it would crack.. Sounds to me like someone was in there and screwed up. Maybe even Heard it crack and decided to sell it. If you bought it from an individual, I'd consider going to visit,, don't act like it died. Just go talk, ostensibly for more maintenance history, ask about simple things, like sometimes the first start of the day, it needs choked,, once he's comfortable, talk about maybe one day, you might have to go into the engine, ask if he has the shop manual.. Feel for the right time to ask him Did you kinda want to puke when you heard the sprocket crack? Or I heard it takes some real care in some places in there. I'd probably wanna puke if I heard that sprocket crack.. IDK what you have in it, but if you get lucky, you can get a motor for four hundred bucks. The ignition changes some years, getting that right is important and some of these guys know and of that by heart. I'd hate to see you buy a crap motor.. Ya know, if you got another Savage, you could ride, enjoy having a bike and as you learn about these things, keep your eyes open and see about getting a motor and fix your dead one. Then, with two, you could start playing around with one. Most people decide they want to change things a little. Get one like you want it, maybe sell the other? |
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Title: Re: Engine replacement Post by Ludolalo on 12/04/21 at 08:19:50 Ok, So I found a complete engine !! Yeahhhhh ! I'll be replacing it myself. All the beads in the bearing are in place. And the wire-looking stuff is actually sealant. I'll take pictures when I will remove the engine. Now I am at the point where I need to mount the bike and start to remove the gas tank. Talked to the guy that sold it to me, he was shocked and he will pay for a part of the engine I bought. The Carburator and oil have been changed in august, not by himself but by a local mechanic. He used it a bit after this maintenance. |
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Title: Re: Engine replacement Post by Ludolalo on 12/04/21 at 08:20:10 the beads |
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Title: Re: Engine replacement Post by Ludolalo on 12/04/21 at 08:20:26 The new engine ! |
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Title: Re: Engine replacement Post by TheSneeze on 12/04/21 at 08:24:14 Just curious - if you don't mind, what did you pay for the motor? How many miles are on it? |
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Title: Re: Engine replacement Post by Ludolalo on 12/04/21 at 08:41:04 700 canadian dollars so maybe around 500USD. With 10 000 miles, it was on a 2000 s40. |
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Title: Re: Engine replacement Post by Dave on 12/04/21 at 08:51:11 Your "broken" engine parts are likely to bring you nearly as much as you paid for the engine. A good low mileage head, camshaft and rockers is worth some money, the cylinder and piston could be in good shape, side cases, clutch, etc. |
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Title: Re: Engine replacement Post by DragBikeMike on 12/04/21 at 22:52:23 Ludolalo, thanks very much for the additional pics. Glad you were able to locate a replacement engine at a very reasonable price. It was also cool that the seller is footing part of the bill, sounds like a standup guy. These failures don't seem to be as uncommon as we might think. Ever since BlakeEM reported his balance shaft failure, I keep an eye out for damaged parts when I browse ebay. I've managed to find a few with telltale signs of a collision between the balance shaft and the rod and/or crank. As I mentioned previously, I think these failures are related to the drive pin for the timing gear working its way out of the gear. Once that pin falls out all hell breaks loose. Seems to me that the pin isn't subjected to much load until the assembly is no longer pinched together. Once the clamping force is relaxed, the gear is free to continuously rock back & forth as the crank accelerates and decelerates (a typical phenomenon associated with a reciprocating engine). In this photo (BlakeEM's), you can actually see the drive pin peeking out of the crank cheek. |
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Title: Re: Engine replacement Post by DragBikeMike on 12/04/21 at 22:55:13 Here you see the pin installed in the drive gear. It's a super-tight press fit and shouldn't come out. Something has to continuously work at it to make the pin come loose. |
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Title: Re: Engine replacement Post by DragBikeMike on 12/04/21 at 23:05:14 Under normal circumstances, that gear is pinched tightly between the crank cheek and the inner race of the right-hand main bearing. That pinching force is applied via the primary drive gear nut, which has left hand threads. This photo that Dave provided shows how the cam drive sprocket is installed on the crank shaft. The smooth round journal to the left of the sprocket is where the main bearing inner race runs, and just to the left of that is a slightly larger diameter where the balancer drive gear runs. To the right of the cam drive sprocket, you see the splines where the primary drive gear is installed, and to the right of the splines you see the threads for the left-hand nut. When everything is in place, the assembly gets pinched together when the primary drive gear nut is tightened. Note that in the picture the flange on the cam drive sprocket is up-hard against the shoulder on the crank. If you tightened the nut the flange would only bear on the face of the crank shoulder. But when all the parts are in place, the inner race of the main bearing sticks out significantly farther than the crank shaft shoulder, so the cam drive sprocket flange bears hard on the inner race, not the crank shaft shoulder. |
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Title: Re: Engine replacement Post by DragBikeMike on 12/04/21 at 23:23:10 If the primary drive gear nut is over tightened, the cam drive sprocket can fracture and collapse. When that happens, there is no longer sufficient pinch to keep the balancer drive gear from moving. Now the drive pin takes all the load. The picture of the fractured cam drive sprocket that I previously posted tells the story. Because the primary drive gear nut is left-hand threads, I suspect it gets overtightened a lot. Inexperienced mechanics may not recognize that it's a left-hand nut and try to rotate it counter-clockwise to remove it. It doesn't take much to fracture the cam drive sprocket. Other wrench turners may know the nut is left-hand, but they use an impact wrench to tighten the nut (probably because they don't have a good way to keep the engine from rotating). Either scenario can result in a fractured drive sprocket. If it's only partially fractured and goes unnoticed, it will fail in operation. Once it fails completely, all the pinch is lost, and the drive pin is now subjected to cyclic stress and inevitable failure. If anyone doesn't think that these nuts get overtightened on a regular basis, take a look at BlakeEM's nut. See how the corners of the hex are deformed and folded over in the counter-clockwise direction. |
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Title: Re: Engine replacement Post by DragBikeMike on 12/04/21 at 23:24:42 And Blake's wasn't too bad, howzabout this treasure I found on ebay. This wrench turner just couldn't see the forest for the trees. The nut wouldn't budge so he got a BIGGER wrench (or a rattle-wrench). |
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Title: Re: Engine replacement Post by DragBikeMike on 12/04/21 at 23:29:26 Here you can see what happens to the drive key on the balance shaft. Oooooo Baby, that hurt so good. Another Ebay find. |
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Title: Re: Engine replacement Post by DragBikeMike on 12/04/21 at 23:32:34 Howzabout this beauty. This could have been some other foreign object that went through the mill, but it sure smells like a timing issue. |
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Title: Re: Engine replacement Post by DragBikeMike on 12/04/21 at 23:34:21 You can clearly see where Blake's connecting rod clobbered the balancer weight. |
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Title: Re: Engine replacement Post by DragBikeMike on 12/04/21 at 23:37:18 Here's an eBay example where you can see some tell-tale evidence that the rod hit the balance weight. |
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Title: Re: Engine replacement Post by DragBikeMike on 12/05/21 at 00:12:37 I think we can all appreciate the seriousness of these failures. Try and picture your butt planted on your Savage, doin a sweet 70 mph on the interstate, and this balancer baloney decides to rear its ugly head. The front of your engine blows out along with a whoppin gusher of oil. You run over the razor-sharp parts and at the same time slather up the rear skin with a generous helping of Rotella. I'm havin nightmares already. So, I plead with you to tell us more. I know your current focus is on that sweet new motor, but please try and figure out exactly what happened to your old motor before you do the engine swap. It will be a great project, interesting, fun, and gratifying. You will have to get that balance shaft out of the way before you can pull the mill out of the frame. Grab ahold of that thing, yank it out of there, and break out your phone. Take some pics. See if you can see the drive pin. Can you tell if the drive pin is in place or is it adrift? Try to rotate the drive gear with your fingers or a screwdriver or something. Can the gear turn independent of the crank shaft? Your left-hand balance shaft bearing looks fine. How about the right-hand bearing? Is it OK too? Check the drive key on the driven gear. Is it sheared off? Ya gotta remove the exhaust system to get the engine out of the frame. That's half-way to gettin the clutch-cover off. Take off the clutch-cover. How does the primary drive gear nut look? Are the corners folded over, like it was over-torqued? See if you can remove the primary drive gear and cam drive sprocket. Is that cam drive sprocket fractured? Your balance shaft driven gear (the one with the springs) looks like it might be broken in half. Is the balance shaft drive gear broken too? I guess it's conceivable that these failures might be somehow related to the cushion springs in the driven gear. If those springs fail to keep the gear and weight phased within acceptable limits the rod and weight might collide. Are all the springs accounted for? Any broken springs? I thank you again. Sharing this info could save someone's hide. I think we need to figure out what makes this failure tick, come up with a periodic inspection, possibly a way to prevent it from happening. Maybe a way to capture the pin. Best regards, Mike |
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Title: Re: Engine replacement Post by Gary_in_NJ on 12/05/21 at 07:05:00 As always, great analysis Mike. If nothing else, for people shopping for used S40, they should take heed when they hear “engine recently rebuilt”. The mechanic could have assembled a time bomb. |
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Title: Re: Engine replacement Post by Ludolalo on 12/05/21 at 14:54:47 I can't move anything by hand, I will be keeping in touch with my progression but I can tell that it is going to be long. I basically don't know anything about engines. It also is my first bike, so I haven't been in touch with motorcycles before now. It is going to be my winter project and I am reading carefully what you guys are writting. I honestly don't really know where to start. I am at the point where I emptied to fuel tank and now I am looking for a way to stabilise the bike. probably will put a bloc of wood underneath the frame. Thanks a lot for the help. I will be filming everything that I will be doing when I will start to take the bike apart to access the engine. |
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Title: Re: Engine replacement Post by Gary_in_NJ on 12/05/21 at 16:15:57 Get a ride-on front wheel chock. It’s how I store my bike in the garage and it’s great for maintenance. |
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Title: Re: Engine replacement Post by ohiomoto on 12/05/21 at 18:15:06 $70 at Harbor Freight. Get a couple of tie downs to keep it stable while you wrench on it. http://https://shop.harborfreight.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/6/1/61670_W3.jpg |
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Title: Re: Engine replacement Post by ohiomoto on 12/05/21 at 18:18:36 Also, I have seen people laying the bike on it's side when it comes time to remove/install the engine. I think they leave the engine on the floor and lift the frame off. I'm guessing the wheels and possible suspension were removed. I don't remember exactly. Maybe someone on here can explain it better. |
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Title: Re: Engine replacement Post by verslagen1 on 12/05/21 at 19:59:42 282F2E282A283328470 wrote:
I've done it that way, leave the wheels on, remove the belt and all the mounting brackets. Tip it over with a piece of carpet under the engine, remove the last couple of bolts connecting the engine to the frame, wiggle it free and lift the bike off the engine. You can install it the same way in reverse. But I've since gotten a chain hoist and find that much easier. and you can lift the whole bike with it. very handy for getting that wire in the right location under the bike. |
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Title: Re: Engine replacement Post by TheSneeze on 12/05/21 at 21:44:42 I went a bit above that and bought the Harbor Freight bike lift. Sorry, but us retired folk need to give our backs a rest! This thing has been worth every penny since I am already on bike #2... |
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Title: Re: Engine replacement Post by Gary_in_NJ on 12/06/21 at 06:07:15 As long as we are showing off bike stands...I made this from 3/4 plywood and 2x2 for the platform, and 6x6 for the legs. It sits about 16" off the ground and I use a ramp (for getting bikes in/out of my p/u) to get bikes on and off. It measures 24" x 72". I had all of the pieces on hand, I only needed to buy the wheel fork from HF ($15) and 4 tie-down rings. |
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Title: Re: Engine replacement Post by Ludolalo on 04/08/22 at 07:21:42 Hello savage community, So, couple of months later and I've finally begun to work on that bike. That big centered screw looks stripped. Could that be a hint to know what happened to the engine? Almost over removing the broken engine. Have a nice day everyone thanks for all your posts. Ludo |
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Title: Re: Engine replacement Post by Ludolalo on 04/08/22 at 07:22:32 almost there |
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Title: Re: Engine replacement Post by DragBikeMike on 04/09/22 at 00:22:32 Thanks for keepin us in the loop Ludo. Looks like this will be a great project for you. I suspect you will feel pretty darned good when you have that hotrod back on line. |
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