SuzukiSavage.com - Print Page

SuzukiSavage.com
/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl
General Category >> The Cafe >> Pocket knives over the years
/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1618571590

Message started by Oldfeller--FSO on 04/16/21 at 04:13:10

Title: Pocket knives over the years
Post by Oldfeller--FSO on 04/16/21 at 04:13:10

When I was a kid, we all carried pocket knives. It was all part of being male and "being prepared" as we were all carefully taught by the Boy Scouts.

Old Timer was my preferred brand, and I mourned as that brand was moved to the orient and the steel simply wasn't right from then on.

Steel used to be high carbon heat treated tool steel, and knives rusted if you didn't keep the blades clean and oiled. Knives became dull looking over time even if you did keep them oiled.

But oh Momma, they were sharp and they sure did cut good for a right good long time, too.

Stainless Steel pocket knives rolled in, and shaving sharp edges went away.

Then Chinese stainless came in, and sharp edges went away. Gummy roll over edges on Chinese stainless steel, oh my what a travesty pocket knives became.

(mind you, you CAN buy a good knife still, but expect to pay over $60-80 for it. Crucible mixed Powdered Metal blades that gets really sharp and holds an edge well costs $80-$130 and you buy them from Spyderco and other boutique knife brands).

==================================================

Life span of a cheap Chinese pocket knife used to be just about a year before the cheap hinges and general poor body construction use gave out on them.

Kids these days don't carry pocket knives (which are all illegal in public schools). If they need something significant now days, they carry a gun.

You have to sharpen your pocket knife regularly now, using a diamond grit lap plate instead of a sharpening stone. Honing stones like to load up with the gummy soft Chinese stainless steel, so put away your good honing oil stones, put them up with your other valued antiques.

===================================================

If you want a "slightly better" grade of cheap Chinese pocket knife, try "Master USA" from AMAZON.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07QL9J66C/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

http://https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0012/8457/1201/products/MU-A093S_half_20oen_07e3427d-df20-4ca1-b268-02e001239707.jpg?v=1544807482

It has a "slightly better grade of cheap Chinese stainless blade steel" and the construction of a Master knife has a steel plate inside each of the injection molded side plates. Hinge pins all are supported on both ends by these steel plates and the blade locks back solidly in the open position in between a steel pin and the wedge spring mechanism.

This handle arrangement won't fold up or break on you in normal daily use like older Chinese pocket knives were so willing to do.

Master has "a spring driven opening mechanism" which you will have to keep both clean and oiled for it to work well. You have several ways to get the knife open, the easiest is to pull back on the protruding blade tang tab until the spring action takes over. It can be a one hand "finger tip open" using this feature once you get used to it.

Why all the self opening complexity? I dunno, it comes stock on the cheapest semi-decent pocket knife on AMAZON which comes at a big whopping $4.13 price point.

We used to call such spring action things "switchblades" and they were always too fragile for real use as a pocket knife. This knife is not fragile, the blade "clunks" into the locked position and it isn't going to fold up because you pushed the blade into a piece of wood. It still isn't sharp, and it never will be sharp because the blade steel just isn't there and never will be.

===================================================

Sharp knife blades still exist, but not on cheap pocket knives.

The best edge you can get on these things is a finely SERRATED rough diamond honed edge. Think wee tiny "steak knife" serrations and you got the main idea.

https://www.amazon.com/HTS-131A0-Double-Diamond-Sharpening/dp/B00U1T2ZVM/ref=sr_1_13?dchild=1&keywords=diamond+grit+honing+stones&qid=1618570190&sr=8-13

http://https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/718-gJKu5zL._AC_UL320_.jpg

Here is your $9.25 coarse and super fine serrated edge sharpening tool. Use the rough coarse side with lots of soapy water to "reshape" the gummy Chinese stainless blade's form, then use the fine side to put a more refined serrated edge on the blade if you want "finer".

I don't want finer serrations, I find the rougher side makes a dandy serration that bites in and cuts easier than the fine side because the rougher serration edge bites into meat or wood better.

Seriously, you will have to reform the blade's cutting edges regularly because the fine edge likes to fold over on you. The little pocket knives are not sharp from the factory and the bevel angles chosen weren't ever intended to be sharp anyway by the factory that made them.

It just was intended to look like a knife, not to cut like one.

:-?

Now go cry in your beer for a bit and go fondle your last two remaining Oldtimer pocket knives, shave yourself a wee little patch of hair off your arm with one and somberly appreciate what a good cheap American pocket knife used to be ......

Title: Re: Pocket knives over the years
Post by MMRanch on 04/17/21 at 19:40:52

OldFeller , let me ask ya this :

I know that you can add carbon to steel , so , "Can ya add carbon to Stainless Steel the same way ?

Title: Re: Pocket knives over the years
Post by Oldfeller--FSO on 04/18/21 at 04:46:06

Stainless Steel contains over 12% Chromium and other additional elements to keep it from corroding. There is simply too much junk in the metal to allow the carbide matrix to form correctly during the heat treat process.

As they say in knives, in stainless steel you can have strength, toughness, or some edge holding ability ---- pick any two items. Knife blades that snap easily in use are dangerous, so they trade off edge holding and toughness during heat treat to get a stronger product.

https://knifeuser.com/3cr13-stainless-steel-knife-review/ This is a review of the moderately well ranked 13% Chromium steel used in these knives.

There ARE much better nitrogen infused stainless knife steels and tool steels out there, but they cost a lot more $$$ now-a-days. American manufacturers could make semi-decent kitchen knives out of stainless, but the Chinese are still learning how.

Here is a picture of a freshly reworked Master knife edge --- it will still dull easily and this edge will fold over if used roughly. What I do is touch up just the edge at a slightly blunter angle so it will still cut acceptably but be strong enough to survive "being my daily pocket knife".

I keep two of the same knives in use at the same time and I sharpen my Chinese pocket knives every few days (as needed) as the edges aren't very good and the edges will burr and will fold over or get dull quite easily.

My original Oldtimers used to go a few months between sharpenings.

Oldtimer cutting edges never just folded over, ever, they might chip or notch if you abused them hard enough, but the edges never just folded over in normal use.

----------------- this is a good trick

When sharpening knives on a diamond grit plate, take some black electrical tape and fold it over the back side of the blade, making sure it stops at the bottom of the hollow grind valley.

This keeps your factory blade finish intact while reshaping the blade as the stone angles from the tape surface to the cutting edge & stone surface while missing the rest of the nice factory surface finish. You let the black tape smoothly glide over the wet soapy diamond plate (black tape wears very slowly, but needs keeping an eye on it when rotating sides) and you let the unsupported blade edge settle on into the bed of diamond grit as you lightly stroke it.

You should have a simple smooth motion that you can repeat by feel. Not a lot of pressure is needed, so lightly does it. You are reforming the edge angle and the edge form so the sharpening action makes a simple single arc out of the original somewhat irregular CNC ground point shape.

The resulting angle is a consistent ~11^o and you will modify that by hand later on as you fix roll overs, etc. by hand sharpening on a finer grit stone. I like to use the rough side of the stone "as is" because the serrations it leaves cuts a lot quicker on the reform stage and it leaves a very aggressive serration that bites in better than a finer finish can bite.

Title: Re: Pocket knives over the years
Post by Tocsik on 04/19/21 at 08:24:26

I still have a Buck lock-blade folding knife from the 80's. I don't know how they're made now, but that thing is solid.

Title: Re: Pocket knives over the years
Post by MMRanch on 04/19/21 at 09:37:05

I've got a Buck 110 from that time to... but it's so heavy I don't carry it. ....

I did have one brand that was pronounced "kat" it seemed to hold an edge without being too heavy. But it's lost now , I'm sure Smokey Mountain Knife Works could sell me a new one. Fact is now I carry key-chain knifes and have a different ring for each vehicle.

So I need a light weight smaller knife . But holding an edge would be nice ... heck most of mine are impossible to sharpen.[ch128543]

Title: Re: Pocket knives over the years
Post by Oldfeller--FSO on 04/19/21 at 16:23:49

How "impossible"? Too soft and gummy to suit your oil stone? Or too small to handle?

Title: Re: Pocket knives over the years
Post by MMRanch on 04/19/21 at 21:56:31

To soft to get an edge on. by time the edge gets skinny ... it falls over ... so a blunt edge is all I can get on them. Just the NATURE OF THE BEAST ya might say. ;D

Three of them are those little knifes with the scissors , nail file , one blade , and then tweezers and a tooth pick stuck in the ends/sides of them . They have little Red Cross's on the side ... but they are not red ! ::)

I've got a easy opening SCHRADE w/belt clip - in three and a half inch for a real knife , but its much to big for a keychain . It takes an edge but don't hold it long , again with the Stainless Steel !

Title: Re: Pocket knives over the years
Post by Matchless G11 on 04/20/21 at 03:16:09

This is what I like
https://www.knifecenter.com/item/K55/otter-mercator-solingen-k55-black-cat-knife-german-carbon-steel-army-issue

It is nice and flat. good size, has a interesting historical background.
and a smaller version is made (to be legal in some places).

Title: Re: Pocket knives over the years
Post by MMRanch on 04/20/21 at 07:39:37

Could it be that SCHRADE has bought OLD TIMER ?

I was just looking for a picture of the SCHRADE model I've got and found this :

https://www.knifecenter.com/item/SCH97OT/schrade-sch97ot-old-timer-bearhead-trapper-with-pick-and-tweezers

:-?

Title: Re: Pocket knives over the years
Post by Eegore on 04/20/21 at 09:44:58

"Could it be that SCHRADE has bought OLD TIMER ?"

Imperial Schrade Corporation stopped manufacturing in 2004.

The "Old Timer" style, IP, schems etc. were all purchased by Taylor Brands LLC, which in turn moved production out of the US. They also purchased Schrade, and Uncle Henry Knives.

In 2016 Smith & Wesson (Battenfeld Technologies) bought Taylor brands LLC. I was hopeful S$W would make some improvements but it seems they were just acquiring more distribution methods.

Title: Re: Pocket knives over the years
Post by LANCER on 04/20/21 at 10:12:26

I bought a Buck 3.5" folding pocket knife in the very early 80's for $60 that holds a nice edge for a long time. The ends of it are brass. It's my favorite, is beautiful, and doesn't get used much but thats ok. Right after I bought it I was visiting mom and dad when a cow was giving birth and my dad used it in the process. It took a little while to get it cleaned up.

Title: Re: Pocket knives over the years
Post by Ruttly on 04/20/21 at 12:25:33

I remember the old original Buck knives with their insignia with a ten penny nail , a buck knife and a hammer. My brother and my father had them. So I took my brothers knife and cut a ten penny nail in two by hitting the back of the blade with the hammer. I don’t think they still use that logo. The original Bucks were American made. That’s right no longer made in the USA and no longer a great knife. So much for progress ,

Title: Re: Pocket knives over the years
Post by Ruttly on 04/20/21 at 12:54:09

Some of the best knives made are made by Benchmade in the USA ! I’ve had the same one for thirty years , I can still shave with it ! Hold on to your nuts before you price one tho , $$

Title: Re: Pocket knives over the years
Post by Oldfeller--FSO on 04/21/21 at 07:54:05

http://https://pics.knifecenter.com/eyJidWNrZXQiOiAiZmlsZXMua25pZmVjZW50ZXIuY29tIiwia2V5IjogImtuaWZlY2VudGVyL3NjaHJhZGUvaW1hZ2VzL1NDSDhPVEJuLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjogeyJyZXNpemUiOiB7IndpZHRoIjogNzYwLCJoZWlnaHQiOiA0MTUsImZpdCI6ICJjb250YWluIiwiYmFja2dyb3VuZCI6IHsiciI6IDI1NSwiZyI6IDI1NSwiYiI6IDI1NSwiYWxwaGEiOiAxfX19fQ==

MM, it has 440C stainless blades, which isn't a shaving sharp steel type.

This from the comments listed for 440C stainless as a knife steel.

What is the best metal for a knife?

"Tool steels are a very popular choice for making knives. ...
Carbon steel grades with high amounts of carbon are desirable for knife making because they will give the blade the hardness and strength needed to hold up against impact and wear. ...

Stainless steel is another type of knife-making metal."

This 440C steel is why I quit buying Oldtimer knives ......

scroll down
http://https://www.selfdefensesupply.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/m/u/mua093s.jpg

One week of riding in my pocket report on the $4.13 Master pocket knife from Amazon .........

It cuts like a pocket knife, the feather thin serrated edge has required being touch honed twice and the very fine edge has finally stopped folding over for the last several days. Tasks are opening plastic sacks, cutting plastic twine and cutting several little branches off of some bushes.

In other words it survives general run of the mill pocket knife tasks .......

I really like the one finger spring open action, I find it very handy when my left hand is gripping something that needs cutting.

Get it out of the pocket, flick it open with the same hand pointer finger and cut away .......

Title: Re: Pocket knives over the years
Post by Eegore on 04/21/21 at 09:21:53

Anyone use CRKT?

I like their open-ended design philosophy and the various promoted designers.

Cost range is diverse and the customer service from the few instances I have had were great. We had modifications made to the M16 Carson model dubbed a Z-SF. Had an extra blade "nub" so the hand wont go over the blade if you strike bone or similar hard surface, like a hilt, and the handle had the holes filled. I think the new ones on the civilian market are stainless unfortunately.

I have their torx driver tool and a few other items.

Title: Re: Pocket knives over the years
Post by Oldfeller--FSO on 04/21/21 at 11:52:27

https://www.crkt.com/shop/pocket-knives.html

With prices ranging from $39 to $139 they are far too steep money-wise for old retired people like me who now use-test their $4.13 Amazon knives and actually like their free Linux distros.

Do they hard lock into place after single finger opening?

I really don't miss having to use fingernail grooves to scrabble to get the blades open any longer ......

::) done got spoilt by the good stuff, that's me

(I am all spoiled now, my wife sez so)

Title: Re: Pocket knives over the years
Post by Eegore on 04/21/21 at 13:34:39

Do they hard lock into place after single finger opening?

Yes. M16 has the most reliable lock mechanism I have seen which is why we chose them to build the custom version.

The issue I have had is a thin handle with the standard lever style lock in the handle inlet groove can be compressed by a glove when twisting the blade. This causes the blade to unlock and fold.

The M16 has an index finger lever and the standard thumb lever that will only close when both are compressed. Under normal use the duel locking is not needed since a standard lever is not likely to be compressed, but under dynamic movement and use those will close up on your hand. If you can't manipulate the blade back to the lock position quickly that can be trouble as you would have to abandon your grip and move on.

I've not seen the new ones sold online to the general public so i am not sure of their blade quality.

I can see however that if you are using a knife from time to time why $5.00 knives are more appealing than a $40.00 one.

Title: Re: Pocket knives over the years
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 04/21/21 at 17:37:11

I've had the German Puma knives, Buck knives, nothing has ever been as good of an edge as the old Case blades before Chinese stainless took over.
Now I have a couple of these

https://www.simsupply.com/departments/consumer/tools/hand-tools/winchester-folding-pocket-knife-22-41323-22-41323-zo-g2805643/?CATARGETID=120012830001778452&CADevice=t&msclkid=8052d3662bab1e0f0950b3e6e9812791&utm_source=bing&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=**LP%20-%20Shop%20-%20Catch%20All&utm_term=4584551175756115&utm_content=Catch%20All

The lanyard hole is a start. I cut groove so my leather doesn't get crushed.
The blade is decent, holds an edge OK, action is reasonable, but metal polish in it and time working it is well spent. I'm fond of Semichrome. Polish.
The size is good, not thick, not heavy, but substantial enough to hold up. I got them at Academy, but have not been seeing them lately.
I have two, because I was afraid they would not be available. I've been carrying one daily, like
Don't leave home without it
For probably eight years.
I'm satisfied with the product, and the price is less than I would be interested in paying for the value of the knife.
Yeah, I'd pay more and be happy with the purchase.
As is, I call them a bargain.

Now
Are they the same as the ones I bought?
Hard to say..

Title: Re: Pocket knives over the years
Post by Tocsik on 04/21/21 at 18:08:51

Have you guys seen the knives Martin's been posting on his Made In The Shed Instagram accoount? Nice work.

https://www.instagram.com/made_in_the_shed_mc/

He's the guy who built this nice Savage.

Title: Re: Pocket knives over the years
Post by Oldfeller--FSO on 04/26/21 at 11:48:02

8th week of continuous carry

I have folded over the feather edge cutting rose stems (moderately tough to cut stuff), resharpened the knife edge with finer stones and it seems to have a more stable non-feathered edge now.

The edge is as sharp as and is as durable as my stainless chief's knives (German made) but not as sharp nor as durable as my Japanese built non-stainless high carbon steel cooking knives.

This is not bad, really. This is a $4.13 knife from Amazon, so it exceeds my expectations for a really cheap knife and comparing it to hundred dollar chief's knives is really a complement to the pocket knife's steel and edge.

The centering of the pocket knife's blade in the steel lined handle is good (and is adjustable if ever needs to be adjusted).

The single hand one finger tip opening action is always nice and smooth with no slop developing in blade lock up or centering so far. Pocket knives do see abuse as a part of their standard diet so we will see how it handles what comes with daily use.

I spent less than $9 for the two knives I have now, so I cannot complain that they are not affordable. I have seen knives that cost 3 times that much not do as well, so comparatively these are certainly RELATIVELY GOOD KNIVES for the price.

These are not gummy soft Chinese stainless blades, they are tough and likely meet all the improved heat treat criteria that make the https://knifeuser.com/3cr13-stainless-steel-knife-review/ such good but inexpensive steel for chief's knife blades.

===================================================

Cutting the safety seal off of pill bottles constitutes the most consistently dulling use case I have seen so far.

You know, very tip of knife goes under the seal and you twist it with some force to break the band edge and then you force the blade tip to cut upwards to separate the relatively hard and stiff heat shrunk plastic band in two.

Surely, a very odd thing to get rated as the "most blade dulling cutting job", huh?

I don't know what shrunk cellophane like stuff is made of (PVC pre-stretched plastic that gets heat shrunk around the twist lid) but it is made of volume reduced heat shrunk HARD and abrasive plastic and that stuff will dull a knife tip up with only opening up a pill bottle or two.

You can see it at the very tip end of your blade, going back only like 1/16" up the blade .......

This cutting load is all localized in a tiny area and it involves some twisting force to get it started, so I can see where it is hard on a blade tip & the short edge just above the tip. This is where your blade is weakest physically anyway, and it is where the steel of the blade got the hottest (got most annealed) during the factory grinding & processing stages.

Sharpening the blade enough to remove this particular dulling is laborious and if you did it often enough you would change the form of the tip of the blade.

I have chosen to ignore it going forward, as it comes back with the very next set of pill bottles .......

==================================================

BLADE ABUSE

Use it some and it will roll the edge and dull on a variety of common cutting tasks. 11^o is too fine of an angle for this blade steel, but that was known going in.

I wanted to see what I wound up with over time, what actually worked well in my real world.

I have been "quick edge sharpening" the blade edges, removing roll over burrs and blunted zones as they happen. This has gradually moved the edge form away from the 11^o full blade straight taper to more of a blunted "v" form, but functional edge durability has gone up considerably.

The body is still straight tapered at less than 16^o but the edge itself (last 1/16" by the edge) is closer to 20^o.

For a $4.13 Amazon knife, this isn't bad service, no not bad at all ........ I inadvertently try to cut cyclone fence sometimes when cutting off small hedge branches growing through the fence. Yes, stupid stuff like that means time to re-edge the blade.

http://suzukisavage.com/yabb2.2/Attachments/IMG_20210418_073015240.jpg

Title: Re: Pocket knives over the years
Post by Oldfeller--FSO on 04/04/22 at 20:06:34

Wow, a whole year has sped on by me since I started this thread.

Still have me two good functioning pocket knives bought for under $10 for the pair of them. I had to clean and sharpen the current constant carry (pocket inhabiting) one today because I was out in the garden cutting tar paper and down in the dirt cutting up irrigation tubing with that particular blade earlier today and got it all gunked and tarred and sandy dirt dulled just this morning.

Yes, this constitutes normal use for my pocket knife, I am not kind to a working knife.

WD40 got the tar off the blade, four strokes on the fine side of the diamond plate got the sharp edge back and I ran it under soap and hot water in the kitchen sink to clean all of the dirt out of it.

A finger tip still pops the blade open and locks it firmly into place. I tuned the alignment up for centering anyway as that is my habit when doing routine knife maintenance.

These are good cheap knives ....... actually they are simply good pocket knives, period.

I have paid a lot more for several pocket knives that didn't do nearly this good and did not last as long.

Note: This one finger flip open knife isn't available from Amazon any longer. Price has also doubled on all of Amazon's cheap Master Pocket Knives ......

Note: Optics Planet sells it still for less than $7.00 which is still a real good price for what you get.

Today these just went on sale for $5.19 at Optics Planet

https://www.opticsplanet.com/master-usa-mu-a093-3in-spring-assisted-knife.html

http://https://op1.0ps.us/978-550-ffffff-no-upscale/opplanet-master-usa-mu-a093s-spring-assisted-knife-3in-3cr13-stainless-steel-drop-point-steel-blade-injection-molded-handle-black-mu-a093s-main.jpg