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General Category >> Politics, Religion (Tall Table) >> Abortion of Downe Syndrome fetuses.
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Message started by eau de sauvage on 04/15/21 at 16:23:02

Title: Abortion of Downe Syndrome fetuses.
Post by eau de sauvage on 04/15/21 at 16:23:02

Question to those who are against abortion. Do you think a woman has a right to abort a child with Downe Syndrome.

Title: Re: Abortion of Downe Syndrome fetuses.
Post by Eegore on 04/15/21 at 17:43:35

I can't imagine anyone here is going to say they are against a-bortion, but if it's Downe Syndrome it's ok. Sexual assault, no aabortion. In-cest, no abortion. Might die, no ab-ortion. Downe Syndrome, sure why not.

Isn't the issue that no woman has the right to abortion at all? It's like saying men have the right to kill kids.

Title: Re: Abortion of Downe Syndrome fetuses.
Post by lukeduck on 04/15/21 at 19:23:20

Abortion meets the description of murder in the Bible. I might raise some hackles, if that is the case, so be it. Scripture tells us not to comprise with the world. Sadly many Christians I have met seem very comprised. I pray The Lord's Blessings for each of you.

Title: Re: Abortion of Downe Syndrome fetuses.
Post by eau de sauvage on 04/15/21 at 20:29:47

OK because y'all have probably heard about Ohios new law that makes it illegal to abort a Downe syndrome fetus. What is interesting, well interesting for those who follow the Supreme Courts holy war against Roe v Wade, is that to get around Roe v Wade, the judges are being invited to equate this with eugenics, with all it's associations with the Nazis.

It seems all the GOP stands for these days is perpetual outrage, abortion oppression, voter suppression and tax breaks for the wealthy.

Title: Re: Abortion of Downe Syndrome fetuses.
Post by Matchless G11 on 04/16/21 at 03:15:51

So are you basically saying some one with Downs are less worthy to live than any body else?

Title: Re: Abortion of Downe Syndrome fetuses.
Post by Eegore on 04/16/21 at 05:42:05

"So are you basically saying some one with Downs are less worthy to live than any body else?"

He's saying Ohio made it illegal. In general from my experience if one is pro-choice they are ok with all fetus being aborted since a fetus has not been born. The issue is Choice, not the genetic status of the fetus.

That is exclusively my limited interactions and not intended to proclaim a factual or analyzed assessment of abortion interpretation.

Title: Re: Abortion of Downe Syndrome fetuses.
Post by MnSpring on 04/16/21 at 05:45:49

Quote:

So are you basically saying some one with Downs are less worthy to live than any body else?

Of course after all the, 'sub-standard', are killed,
next it will be the Jews !

Oh did you hear the interview with AOC ?
She was asked:
"What do you think of Row vs Wade"
She said;
"Well that is the only two ways they can get across"

This Drive By was brought to you by:
BotIncBaDump

Title: Re: Abortion of Downe Syndrome fetuses.
Post by Matchless G11 on 04/16/21 at 17:10:22

1131333B2631540 wrote:

So is the fetus alive?

If so should it have been protect life liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

If it has separate dna, brain wave activities and a heart beat is that not life?

Title: Re: Abortion of Downe Syndrome fetuses.
Post by Eegore on 04/16/21 at 20:53:54

"So is the fetus alive?

If so should it have been protect life liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

If it has separate dna, brain wave activities and a heart beat is that not life?"

To me this is less about Life but more about Choice when discussing "pro-choice". The decision if a woman has the right to choose regarding giving birth, not the genetic status of a fetus. Basically, to me, some people think a woman should not get to choose if she gives birth or not, other people will decide for her.

"Fetus" and "life" have too many variables, everyone will have a different opinion. So, to me, it is about Choice more than it is about Life when we first break down what to talk about.

Does a pregnant female have a Choice? That's an easier yes or no answer to me.

Title: Re: Abortion of Downe Syndrome fetuses.
Post by Matchless G11 on 04/17/21 at 03:03:51

68484A425F482D0 wrote:

Every one has a different opinion?
Humm it seems a objective truth and subjective truth are getting mixed up.
Truth is when you stop someone's heart beat you kill them.
Simple..
If they are inside or outside a womb should not matter.

And for those who are not sure...

Would you run over some thing in the road that may look like a person
because you are not sure?

Whether one believe in God or karma a day of reckoning will come.

Title: Re: Abortion of Downe Syndrome fetuses.
Post by Eegore on 04/17/21 at 07:03:11

"Truth is when you stop someone's heart beat you kill them."

True.

"If they are inside or outside a womb should not matter."

This is the opinion I was talking about. In my opinion a fetus at all stages of life is not a human with full judicial rights. In my opinion.

"Would you run over some thing in the road that may look like a person
because you are not sure?"

By my definition a human on a road has been born and is now afforded all the rights of a born human so I would not run it over. If you asked me if I would run over a fresh tampon with potential embryonic fluid maintained at a survivable temperature then yeah I probably would.

So my assessment about "pro-Choice" is that the question is more about Choice than Life. Do women have the right to choose if they give birth? Or do other people make that choice for them? Easier to answer, in my opinion.

In context to Eau's proposed question - it seems, to me, that being "Pro-life" and pro-Downe-Syndrome-abortion are mutually exclusive. If a 13 year old girl is impregnated by her father and must attempt a live-birth by law, why would it be ok to abort a fetus with Downe Syndrome?

One would have to be pro-choice in some capacity to be willing to abort a fetus for any reason.

Title: Re: Abortion of Downe Syndrome fetuses.
Post by Serowbot on 04/17/21 at 08:20:08

Just in case,... should we legislate that all used tampons require proper burial?
This is hyperbolic, but points out the absurdity of the pro-life position.
Is the morning after pill murder? Are two cells a person?

Is a nut and a bolt a motorcycle? It could potentially be. It depends on the intention of the builder.
I'll let the woman decide.
She's got the tools.

Title: Re: Abortion of Downe Syndrome fetuses.
Post by MnSpring on 04/17/21 at 12:17:43

Quote:

5046514C54414C57230 wrote:

" ... Is a nut and a bolt a motorcycle? It could potentially be. ... "

Yes, two pieces of metal, COULD, be a motorcycle.
(Or a whole bunch of other things)

Two, Human cells, could ONLY be another Human.
(The only Sentient Being
on this Spaceship called Earth as we know it)

One is a Human, Sentient, being.

One is, a NUT & BOLT !

Title: Re: Abortion of Downe Syndrome fetuses.
Post by MnSpring on 04/17/21 at 12:35:05

Quote:

7C5C5E564B5C390 wrote:
" ..., Does a pregnant female have a Choice? ... "

The vary vast majority of women having a abortion,
Have Chosen,
to DROP the aspirin,
they held with their knees.

They have Chosen to Kill a Human being,
for convince,
to be able to, Kill another Human being,
for convince.

Rather clear that the stopping of the teachings of:
'You are Responsible for the things You Do'
in pre-school, grade-school, high-school, collage,
(because it is not PC correct)
Has had a effect.

Title: Re: Abortion of Downe Syndrome fetuses.
Post by Matchless G11 on 04/18/21 at 05:20:26

1006110C14010C17630 wrote:

Mensural blood is just blood,
however sperm and egg do make a person are a different item all together.

https://www.sciencealert.com/scientists-just-captured-the-actual-flash-of-light-that-sparks-when-sperm-meets-an-egg

As my high school biology book stated it requires male intervention.
so it is not just a woman's choice.

As for motorcycles
They do not have a a heart beat at 18 days.
they cannot move their arms and legs at 6 weeks.
And a motorcycle does not have brain waves at 43 days.
And a motorcycle can not have fingernails and suck it's thumb at 11 weeks.

This is a person not a motorcycle.

In fact I can go get a can a gasoline and douse my shed and torch all my bikes, every thing from my ryca to my 1971 bsa.
The worse I might get is a charge of arson and or insurance fraud.
(that is if the flames do go anywhere else). I have no interest in doing such a thing. Just making a point.

However if a mad man were to set fire to a preschool the charges would be different.

Title: Re: Abortion of Downe Syndrome fetuses.
Post by Eegore on 04/18/21 at 07:59:06

"As my high school biology book stated it requires male intervention.
so it is not just a woman's choice."

If a man rapes a female she did not have a choice. I know people say it's "God's Will" that she be raped, but that, to me, essentially is placing your religion over hers.

Again we can argue human life all day. This discussion has gone on forever here because people are fluidly exchanging the argument of Choice with Life, and then forgetting we are addressing US law.

Should a woman who is forcibly impregnated by her father have to attempt a live-birth by law?

Is that Choice to be made by someone other than that female?

Title: Re: Abortion of Downe Syndrome fetuses.
Post by Serowbot on 04/18/21 at 09:43:07

My point is, there are two sides to this coin.
Whatever you believe is your choice.
What a woman believes should be her choice.

Title: Re: Abortion of Downe Syndrome fetuses.
Post by Matchless G11 on 04/19/21 at 16:27:15

If a man rapes a female she did not have a choice. I know people say it's "God's Will" that she be raped, but that, to me, essentially is placing your religion over hers.

Again we can argue human life all day. This discussion has gone on forever here because people are fluidly exchanging the argument of Choice with Life, and then forgetting we are addressing US law.

Should a woman who is forcibly impregnated by her father have to attempt a live-birth by law?

Is that Choice to be made by someone other than that female?

[/quote]

First off Eegore I take exception with your comment the it is "God's will" that a woman got raped. I have never heard any Christian say such a thing. .
No It God doesn't will such an evil act. God however allows us humans to be jerks, We have freedom, whether to obey or to tell off the almighty but this is only limited by our short life span, and to our ultimate judgement.

Let's look at the second part of your argument not the so much the idea of rape but the bigger question of Roe.

Let's do a Twilight Zone moment where I become Rod Sterling.

"Imagine if you will, a world where murder is the law of the land, one can snuff out any one at any time for any reason under the sun.
You don't like the grocer down the street, so you stab him at the register.
The gardener ones doesn't like gets thrown in a chipper.
The noisy kids skipping down the street end up in the grill of a Buick.
All of this is done in the letter of the law.
Now imagine some one trying to put a stop to this madness, by ending legal murder.
But this person is hit with the arguments:
"They will still kill each other,"
"What if someone is burning in their car and you shoot them to put them out of their misery?"
"What if someone is trying to kill you and you defend yourself?

No this is not twilight zone this is real life and the exception(s) in abortion have become the rule.
About 3% of abortions are for rape or the life of the mother is in danger.
(I would say from my experience the last one, life indanger makes up the majority of the 3% )

So we have 97% of "I just don't want the kid" .

Is that worth killing a million a year of healthy babies. For the exception?
"

Title: Re: Abortion of Downe Syndrome fetuses.
Post by Eegore on 04/19/21 at 18:12:19

"First off Eegore I take exception with your comment the it is "God's will" that a woman got raped. I have never heard any Christian say such a thing. .
No It God doesn't will such an evil act. God however allows us humans to be jerks, We have freedom, whether to obey or to tell off the almighty but this is only limited by our short life span, and to our ultimate judgement. "

I only know about 30 and I am unsure if they are specifically "Christian" however I do know their stance is similar if not exactly "God's Will". The justification being God wanted the child to exist. Only 2 responded when I asked if they would be willing to explain their position. If you want to know more let me know.

"No this is not twilight zone this is real life and the exception(s) in abortion have become the rule.
About 3% of abortions are for rape or the life of the mother is in danger.
(I would say from my experience the last one, life indanger makes up the majority of the 3% )

So we have 97% of "I just don't want the kid" .

Is that worth killing a million a year of healthy babies. For the exception?"

I see your point and that just leads us to:

Is it ok to legislatively force a woman raped by her father to give birth because other women have abortions for other reasons?

I agree that abuse should be remedied. The problem is making abortion illegal stops as many abortions as making murder illegal does. So as I described before we need a way to enforce such law, including incarcerating the offenders. The US prison system would need to prepare for a moderate influx of pregnant females and the medical security abilities to force them to have babies safely. But none of this can be discussed much until we answer the question of US law removing Choice.

So to be more specific should US law force all women to attempt a live birth? Should US law remove their Choice? Then we can define life, define abuse, prepare enforcement procedures, etc.

Title: Re: Abortion of Downe Syndrome fetuses.
Post by MnSpring on 04/20/21 at 08:10:33

Quote:

68484A425F482D0 wrote:
" ... The problem is making abortion illegal stops as many abortions as making murder illegal does. ... "

Do you have proof of your statement that:
" ... making abortion illegal stops as many abortions as making murder illegal ..."
Or is it your belief ?

Just as my belief is, if Abortions were illegal, the number of abortions would go down by 80 + %.
Sure their will be back door, coat-hanger, (like) abortions.
But without the FREE abortions offered for just convenience,
(Paid for by all the taxpayers)
The number would go down very significantly.

Murder is already illegal, so how can you compare ?

Title: Re: Abortion of Downe Syndrome fetuses.
Post by Eegore on 04/20/21 at 09:18:48

"Do you have proof of your statement that:
" ... making abortion illegal stops as many abortions as making murder illegal ..."
Or is it your belief ?"

It is my belief that making anything illegal - without enforcement - stops as many crimes as leaving it legal, or making any other thing illegal. That is why the rest of my post is in regards to enforcing illegal abortion. My question however is should law force women to have live births? Until we answer that everything else is just arguing points of view to justify something that may be infringing on the Judicial procedure or rights of the People.

I do agree that if abortions were made illegal people without the means to get to an illegal clinic or find someone to use other means would most likely have the baby. In return I think infanticide would rise, but not necessarily in large numbers.

But again the question I am posing is should US law remove the Choice of a woman regarding giving birth? Should US law force women to give birth?

Structurally this is important, without it the ability to provide and fund alternatives is near impossible.

"Murder is already illegal, so how can you compare ?"

I agree. I was responding to Matchless who proposed that comparison.

Title: Re: Abortion of Downe Syndrome fetuses.
Post by Matchless G11 on 04/20/21 at 16:32:01

So to be more specific should US law force all women to attempt a live birth? Should US law remove their Choice? Then we can define life, define abuse, prepare enforcement procedures, etc.

[/quote]

I don't know about the jailing of pregnant women.
Don't know of any cases that happened in the pre Roe days. I do think the abortion providers should be jailed if they break the law, No ex post facto though.
But just like a junkie getting off drugs it might be a crazy time to break this country of abortion on demand at anytime during the pregnancy.

After all we are still paying for the evils of slavery over 100 years later.

When we came to a time when we discovered a black man was a person not property.

Now were are approaching a time when people are wakening up and realizing a fetus is also a person..

With over 50 Million abortions in this country since Roe.
I am afraid there may be hell to pay.

Title: Re: Abortion of Downe Syndrome fetuses.
Post by Eegore on 04/20/21 at 21:12:54

Ok I see your point but I am still wondering if US law should force all, as in every, woman to attempt a live birth? Should US law remove that choice from them?

Until that is addressed we can't really go into jailing anyone for any reason.

Title: Re: Abortion of Downe Syndrome fetuses.
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 04/22/21 at 15:54:53

Error: One of form fields contains text which is considered SPAM, you are warned!
You are only allowed 2 more attempt(s) after which you will be banned as spammer!

How very convenient
My carefully thought out post
Gone..

Title: Re: Abortion of Downe Syndrome fetuses.
Post by Eegore on 04/22/21 at 17:03:33

The filter is weird. A lot of times I just find the word I repeated and misspell it each time.

A bortion. AAbortion. etc.