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General Category >> Politics, Religion (Tall Table) >> NY did it wrong?
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Message started by Eegore on 01/29/21 at 12:48:10

Title: NY did it wrong?
Post by Eegore on 01/29/21 at 12:48:10

This whole nonsense with NY and the nursing home fatality rates is why multi-stage verification needs to exist in command structure so one can cross-reference and also give the appropriate information.

Also it indicates that people can't, or at least refuse to read: "this data captures COVID-19 confirmed and COVID-19 presumed deaths within nursing homes and adult care facilities. This data does not reflect COVID-19 confirmed or COVID-19 presumed positive deaths that occurred outside of the facility."

https://ag.ny.gov/sites/default/files/2021-nursinghomesreport.pdf

https://www.governor.ny.gov/news/statement-new-york-state-health-commissioner-dr-howard-zucker-1

Title: Re: NY did it wrong?
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 01/30/21 at 14:32:35

So Cuomo didn't shove seniors into homes when they were testing positive?

You seem to like
Official Reports

I'm not so easily convinced.

Title: Re: NY did it wrong?
Post by Eegore on 01/30/21 at 19:02:46

"So Cuomo didn't shove seniors into homes when they were testing positive?"

He absolutely did. You obviously didn't read the references. I even pulled the section that was most applicable and quoted it in bold, and it still wasn't read.

What part of the references I provided says Coumo didn't handle this poorly?

What part of what I posted in bold is wrong?

Title: Re: NY did it wrong?
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 01/30/21 at 20:33:44

Good going

Title: Re: NY did it wrong?
Post by Eegore on 01/30/21 at 20:39:55

Thanks.

So what part of what I posted is not accurate? What part is claiming Coumo didn't do things wrong?

I literally post that this is why there needs to be cross referenced verification and you somehow turn it into me saying Coumo is right?

How is my documentation doing that and what are you "not convinced" of?

Title: Re: NY did it wrong?
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 01/31/21 at 02:55:06

It's all good.

Title: Re: NY did it wrong?
Post by Eegore on 01/31/21 at 08:26:14

So why are you asking "So Cuomo didn't shove seniors into homes when they were testing positive?"

My references shows the undercount. You indicate you are "not so easily convinced" yet you seem to completely accept that Couomo made stupid nursing home placement decisions.

You are fine throwing out questions as if that "Official Report" is factual, but also indicate you are not convinced it is factual.

Obviously you didn't read what I posted, I will try to break it down even simpler: "This data does not reflect COVID-19 confirmed or COVID-19 presumed positive deaths that occurred outside of the facility."

Of course that's "Official" so now it might be wrong, even though if we want to call Coumo a moron its right.

Title: Re: NY did it wrong?
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 01/31/21 at 09:11:14

So, we agree again

Title: Re: NY did it wrong?
Post by Eegore on 01/31/21 at 09:41:20

The question I think that needs to be asked is who reported those numbers? If it is the State of NY, then they obviously didn't look at their own assessment tools, or more likely were just "omitting" that information.

If it was "the news" then they are the one's that screwed up, because that verbiage is really straightforward. People outside of a nursing home were counted at the hospital. Poor verification, or manipulation of public statements, either way its poor conduct.

Title: Re: NY did it wrong?
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 01/31/21 at 13:57:16

Agreed..
Poor conduct.

Title: Re: NY did it wrong?
Post by oldNslow on 01/31/21 at 19:07:14

1535373F2235500 wrote:

I think it's a bit more than "poor conduct".

Cuomo got badly hammered pretty early on by the NY press when it was discovered that his policy was to send still infectious, but no longer critically ill covid patients right back to the nursing home that they lived in as soon as they could be discharged from hospital instead of quarantining them somewhere until they were no longer a danger to the other rsidents and staff. He did finally change that policy.

He is still, rightly in my opinion, being blamed for his culpability in the horrendous death toll in NY among nursing home residents.

Cuomo doesn't like that. He*l, he published a friggin book last spring touting what a wonderful job he was doing handling the pandemic in NY compared to the governors in other states.

Not counting nursing home residents that die after they get sick enough to be sent to a hospital to die, as NURSING HOME DEATHS, looks to me like deliberate political manipulation in order to keep the numbers down so governor a'shole doesn't look any worse than he already does.

Title: Re: NY did it wrong?
Post by Eegore on 01/31/21 at 19:21:12

"Not counting nursing home residents that die after they get sick enough to be sent to a hospital to die, as NURSING HOME DEATHS, looks to me like deliberate political manipulation in order to keep the numbers down so governor a'shole doesn't look any worse than he already does. "

Given the surrounding circumstances I think this very well could be true.

The idea that it was "covered up" I can't exactly get on board with because the collection method is right there in black and white since day 1. I would definitely say the specifics were omitted due to the reasons you present.

Title: Re: NY did it wrong?
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 01/31/21 at 19:25:05

You don't figure manslaughter is
Poor behavior?

Title: Re: NY did it wrong?
Post by Eegore on 02/01/21 at 00:34:38

"You don't figure manslaughter is
Poor behavior?"

Did I say manslaughter is not poor behavior or in any way defend, approve, concur or otherwise in any way say manslaughter is any behavior of any kind?

How are you arriving at the idea that I do not think manslaughter is poor behavior?

Title: Re: NY did it wrong?
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 02/01/21 at 07:48:42

Sorry, I should have quoted
Old
And replied to him.

Title: Re: NY did it wrong?
Post by Eegore on 02/01/21 at 09:09:19

Ahh ok. I read it as him saying it is more than poor conduct.

Title: Re: NY did it wrong?
Post by oldNslow on 02/01/21 at 10:03:37

6E7177706D6A5B6B5B63717D36040 wrote:

Sorry, I should have quoted
Old
And replied to him.

Well, yeah, I think manslaughter is pretty poor conduct. But I was responding specifically to the way NY was counting deaths. That's dishonest and despicable, but probably not criminal.

Cuomo's policy early last year that sent infected and possibly infectious people back into nursing homes however may well have been. At the very least it was gross negligence.

Title: Re: NY did it wrong?
Post by Eegore on 02/01/21 at 10:45:11

I wouldn't say it is "dishonest" since NY the State, from the beginning, posted publicly how they counted. The reporting omitted the truthful disclosure, so I would call the reporting dishonest/dispicable.

"This data does not reflect COVID-19 confirmed or COVID-19 presumed positive deaths that occurred outside of the facility."

I think this is part of the problem, calling the people who tell the truth liars because somebody else lied. It's like calling all white guys racist because one white guy is racist. What is "dishonest" and specifically the word dishonest about what I posted above in bold? Specifically what I posted above and not some other topic.

The process was transparent, that's why people have been complaining this whole time because they can see the process, but the PR surrounding it has been moderately duplicitous.

I think the bigger problem is ignoring that the truth was always disclosed so we can further vilify the person(s) who made bad choices. Just let their bad choices, and their public statements speak for themselves, instead of trying to over-inflate it by claiming the counting method was also dishonest when it in fact was always publicly disclosed.

Title: Re: NY did it wrong?
Post by oldNslow on 02/01/21 at 11:05:23

:) OK. We will publicly disclose how we are going to come up with misleading statistics, so that when those misleading statistics are publicly disseminated we - the authors of those statistics - are blameless, and the folks who disseminate our misleading statistics are actually the ones at fault.

That's how it works ?

Cuomo deserves to be vilified. For this and plenty of other things. He's a piece of sh*t.

Title: Re: NY did it wrong?
Post by Eegore on 02/01/21 at 11:37:00

"OK. We will publicly disclose how we are going to come up with misleading statistics, so that when those misleading statistics are publicly disseminated we - the authors of those statistics - are blameless, and the folks who disseminate our misleading statistics are actually the ones at fault."

You are comparing the procedure with the manipulation of reported data (statistics). It is disclosed in black and white that the data pool does not include people pronounced dead at another location. How is that misleading?

You want to call it misleading so you can further vilify Coumo by grouping more with him. You are right, he's deserves to be held accountable, but only for what he did, we don't need to add in other things. It's like me reading a post that Serow made about all your posts and never bothering to go look at what you actually said, and then calling you a liar.

Part of the problem in this case is not knowing, or even bothering to consider what the alternative is.

In this case the alternative is that the Nursing Home would report the C-19 death instead of the medical center or clinic where the person died. So the nursing home needs to track the patient off-grounds or rely on the medical center to pass on a report that then is relayed into the State count by people who did not process any of the final paperwork or treatment. This can easily result in double-counting, so a more reliable resolution is to have the facility that processes the body, make the report.

I would say the method used by NY is actually more accurate from a count total perspective - but since people won't read - they will say its "misleading" because they don't like Coumo.

The nursing home counts were already disputed before any of this hit the news because people who will read already knew that the claims were misleading because they used the actual documentation to compare to. That documentation was the one that said what was really happening, not what Coumo said was happening. Now we want to say the documentation used to prove Coumo was being duplicitous is also duplicitous?

Title: Re: NY did it wrong?
Post by oldNslow on 02/12/21 at 02:44:57

https://www.foxnews.com/us/cuomo-aide-nursing-home-data-trump-doj

They lied. Covered up the true data way back in August of 2020.

But it's Trump's fault.

If he had known the truth he'd have said mean things about Andy.

"We were in a position where we weren’t sure if what we were going to give to the Department of Justice, or what we give to you guys, what we start saying, was going to be used against us while we weren’t sure if there was going to be an investigation," DeRosa told the lawmakers, according to the Post report.

Rich Azzopardi, a senior Cuomo adviser, placed some of the blame on the Trump administration.

"We explained that the Trump administration was in the midst of a politically motivated effort to blame Democratic states for COVID deaths," he said Thursday evening. "And that we were cooperating with federal document productions -- and that was the priority. And now that it is over, we can address the state Legislature. That said, we were working simultaneously to complete the audit of information they were asking for." "

Even when these as*holes get caught it's Trumps fault.

Title: Re: NY did it wrong?
Post by Eegore on 02/12/21 at 05:51:03

"More than 15,000 seniors died in adult-care facilities, but the governor was clearly more worried about a DOJ investigation and political finger-pointing.""

So should every senior that has ever been in an adult care facility be counted as a nursing home death, or as stated above, ones that died "in" an adult care facility?

It is ridiculous that they want to blame the Trump Administration for anything they did that wasn't a direct order from the Trump Administration. I understand why the medically stable order was issued, but I do not understand why alternative resources were not used, and withholding information should be criminal.

Title: Re: NY did it wrong?
Post by Mavigogun on 02/12/21 at 06:15:29

These are not mutually exclusive propositions- if the New York Post report is collaborated- which all should want, considering its history of dispensing with basic standards of journalism -then the Governor’s Administration should most definitely be held to account. As of yet, I can’t find a complete transcript of the quoted exchange to qualify the characterization- if interested parties do, post a link here, please.

Here is a summation by The Hill:

https://thehill.com/homenews/state-watch/538575-top-cuomo-aide-apologized-to-democrats-saying-we-froze-in-withholding

As I led with, both the Cuomo Administration can and should be held to account for any demonstrated deception, and the Trump Administration for injecting partisanship into what should have been collaborative efforts, if the case. Two wrongs are just that- two wrongs.

Title: Re: NY did it wrong?
Post by Eegore on 02/12/21 at 06:59:41

That link says "Page not found"

Title: Re: NY did it wrong?
Post by Serowbot on 02/12/21 at 07:08:37

So, hospitals count all Covid deaths on their premises...
For nursing homes to count them would result in a double count.
More outrage! They’re inflating the numbers!

Let's get out of this tempest in a teapot.
Dead is dead.

Title: Re: NY did it wrong?
Post by Mavigogun on 02/12/21 at 07:17:14

URL markup has been repaired.

Title: Re: NY did it wrong?
Post by Mavigogun on 02/12/21 at 07:38:53

As a personal interest, the infection numbers system-wide and at specific facilities is essential information- independent of fatalities. Without such, we can’t make informed decisions for our loved ones. Worse yet, if reporting obfuscates a condition, the choices we make may put our loved ones in greater danger.

This is just as true for vaccine management. When the Trump Administration misrepresented infection projections, the existence of vaccine stores, as well as non-existent distribution plans, those lies directly impacted these same folks.

It’s unfortunate that these two administrations are linked in this way- BUT THEY ARE. Are these failures the same? No. Do they matter? Yes, they do.

It should also be recognized that oldNslow, a resident of NY State, has a direct interest.

Title: Re: NY did it wrong?
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 02/12/21 at 08:20:42

https://nypost.com/2021/02/11/cuomo-aide-admits-they-hid-nursing-home-data-from-feds/amp/?__twitter_impression=true

Title: Re: NY did it wrong?
Post by Eegore on 02/12/21 at 08:33:59

That link shows page not found.

Title: Re: NY did it wrong?
Post by Mavigogun on 02/12/21 at 09:00:39

This space doesn't do well with hyphenated URLs- ya gotta use the URL bracket markup.

Title: Re: NY did it wrong?
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 02/12/21 at 09:18:24

Copy and paste it

Title: Re: NY did it wrong?
Post by Mavigogun on 02/12/21 at 10:21:04

56494F4855526353635B49450E3C0 wrote:

Copy and paste it

That can work- or you can just go back to your post, click “modify”, selected the link, click the hyperlink icon at the top left of the edit box, then click “save”.

Title: Re: NY did it wrong?
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 02/12/21 at 20:32:09

I know how
The thing speaks for itself. Read it,don't, I don't care.

He forced sick people into homes with elderly, vulnerable people and is responsible for thousands of deaths.

Read it, or don't

Hey!!!

Is it just me
Or didn't someone dispatch a hospital ship up there that didn't get used?

Ohh, Fuuuk, what was I thinking??
TRUMP sent that ship up there, so Using it would be a Win for Trump
And dead people don't matter as much as Not giving Trump a win.

HCQ a good weapon
Until Trump said it was.

Aaand it's slowly coming out..

Ohh, I haven't seen much from the lefties about the people dying after getting the shot.

Whistle and walk on by..

Title: Re: NY did it wrong?
Post by Eegore on 02/12/21 at 22:07:12

"HCQ a good weapon
Until Trump said it was."

Except it isn't. There's little evidence it conclusively helped anyone, including Trump who took it and still got Covid. A "proven cure" as you posted, and he still got Covid.

If I sold you a "cure" and you got the disease would you still call it a "good weapon" against that disease? If so what is the threshold of treatment needed to be considered "good"?

https://bmcinfectdis.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12879-021-05773-w

"Ohh, I haven't seen much from the lefties about the people dying after getting the shot."

All 0.003% of them? Where's the "righties" showing how deadly the vaccine is? Are they with the liars saying mercury in medicine is the same as mercury in thermometers? Or are they repeating the Nebraska thing over and over?

Title: Re: NY did it wrong?
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 02/12/21 at 23:57:42

I said what I wanted.

Title: Re: NY did it wrong?
Post by Mavigogun on 02/13/21 at 01:57:54

Yes, you do have a nack for 'saying what you want'- with little regard for what is, what is not; most important seems to be hearing the sound of your own keyboard.

Title: Re: NY did it wrong?
Post by MnSpring on 02/13/21 at 06:46:36

6864736C626A62706B050 wrote:

" ... you do have a nack for 'saying what you want'- with little regard for what is, ... "

WOW, What did the Kettle call the Pot ???????????

Title: Re: NY did it wrong?
Post by Mavigogun on 02/13/21 at 07:53:14

Honest readers, by this juncture, recognize my value of accurate reporting. Contrary to your claim, I do not run away from my words when challenged by record or better demonstration of events. To point, I would be loath to make any claim of fact, and, when challenged, cower behind my desire to have just said something.

Your proclamation, MnSpring, is a petty and unwarranted insult- and is what you’ve trained me to expect from you, your character.

Title: Re: NY did it wrong?
Post by MnSpring on 02/13/21 at 12:48:28

727E69767870786A711F0 wrote:

... Your proclamation, MnSpring, is a petty and unwarranted insult-

Well then YOU just have to cry like a baby to a moderator,
perhaps YOU will get what YOU want, because YOU cried.

"...and is what you’ve trained me to expect from you..."

LOLOLOLOLOL
And you have, 'trained', everyone,
to expect, 'what', from you ?