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SuzukiSavage.com
/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> DR 650 cam installation /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1609073164 Message started by nickbilljim on 12/27/20 at 04:46:04 |
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Title: DR 650 cam installation Post by nickbilljim on 12/27/20 at 04:46:04 I managed to get an early DR 650 cam ,my mechanic fitted it and used the LS 650 spec sheet to fit it.Is this correct or should it have been fitted to the DR 650 spec sheet (is there any difference)? I managed to find a tachometer and found that my 4 gear 1986 bike struggled to hit 6000 R P M in third and struggled to hit 80 M P H in 4th gear ,I have a Wiseco piston from lancer a V M 38 carb, ported exhaust port .Have I done something wrong it used to go faster as standard(I read something about advancing and retarding the cam timings might help.Any advice would be appreciated |
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Title: Re: DR 650 cam installation Post by Dave on 12/27/20 at 07:58:49 For the relatively simple LS650, all you do is line up the mark on the end of the cam to the top of the cylinder head at TDC - it is not rocket science. With the Wiseco and DR650 cam, you should have noticeably more power than the stock piston and cam. Do you have the ability/equipment to do a compression test? |
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Title: Re: DR 650 cam installation Post by nickbilljim on 12/27/20 at 08:49:41 no but I know a man who does |
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Title: Re: DR 650 cam installation Post by DragBikeMike on 12/28/20 at 21:45:37 The OEM DR650 cam runs just fine when set at the factory marks. There's no need to try and advance or retard the cam. Check your carburetor and make sure the slide is lifting all the way when the throttle is wide open. Verify that your oil level is correct. Make sure it's not over-filled. The compression check is a good recommendation. Make sure the throttle is wide open when you check the compression. If your cranking pressure is below 190 psi verify that your valve adjustment is not too tight. Did you make any other changes when the cam was installed? A different air filter, exhaust system, etc.? |
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Title: Re: DR 650 cam installation Post by nickbilljim on 12/29/20 at 06:36:09 Hi thanks for your advice I am no mechanic but the mechanic who did the work said he had lapped the valves and (stage one job on the head) and enlarged the exhaust port to 1.5 inches, I have a spongy type air filter straight onto the V M 38 carb with size 20 pilot and 210 main I have a Wiseco 94 mm high comp piston my exhaust is a 18 inch reverse cone with baffles .I have a compression tester on order I hope the compression test is O K because the mechanic who put the cam in also did the piston |
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Title: Re: DR 650 cam installation Post by justin_o_guy2 on 12/29/20 at 18:52:26 There are tons of ever so cool looking air filters that also manage to block air into certain parts of the carb, creating all kinds of issues. |
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Title: Re: DR 650 cam installation Post by nickbilljim on 12/30/20 at 01:02:49 what air filter do you recommend ?,I tried without an air filter and it did not make a difference |
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Title: Re: DR 650 cam installation Post by DragBikeMike on 12/30/20 at 01:32:19 With the mods that you've done it should run noticeably better than stock. Lots better. You said it ran better before the mods. Was that with the reverse cone muffler? Your main jet is in the ballpark. You proved the air filter isn't chocking off your WOT performance when you did the quick & dirty check (ran without filter). If your compression checks out good then you probably should check cam timing. That requires removal of the head cover. |
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Title: Re: DR 650 cam installation Post by nickbilljim on 12/31/20 at 07:04:59 thanks for all your help I have a compression tester coming on the 6th of Jan ,I know my bike was running very rich because the plug was black so I changed the main jet from 220 down to a 210 also the clip on my needle was on the second from the top (as recommended in the technical section) I have moved my clip up to its highest setting) but it is still running rich, I think I need a bigger needle. At the moment I am getting less than 40 M P G ,would running very rich account for the lack of power at higher R P M ,Again thanks for all your help |
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Title: Re: DR 650 cam installation Post by ckahleer on 12/31/20 at 08:56:08 Years back, I did a top end rebuild on a 305 Honda. After I was done it ran like crap and very rich. It turned out I had the valve timing one tooth off. |
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Title: Re: DR 650 cam installation Post by Dave on 12/31/20 at 09:36:45 If the cam timing is off, or if there is low compression - you could be down on power and the spark plug could be black and sooty. There are a lot of things that could be wrong......it might even be as simple as an improperly adjusted compression release. A diagnosis and repair requires looking to find the cause. I would start with a compression test - and if that proves acceptable I would then confirm the cam timing is correct. |
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Title: Re: DR 650 cam installation Post by Gary_in_NJ on 12/31/20 at 09:49:32 Remember when doing the compression test that you must disable/disconnect the compression release cable and hold the throttle wide open. I assume this will be a leak-down compression test and not just a psi test. One is diagnostic and the other is nice information, but doesn’t lead to conclusions. |
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Title: Re: DR 650 cam installation Post by nickbilljim on 01/22/21 at 05:56:23 the weather finally warmed up enough to do compression test and it is good news ,with the engine warmed up I got a reading around the 200 psi mark ,so compression is not the problem ( but the bike still will not go past 80mph)what else could it be?.Thanks Nick |
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Title: Re: DR 650 cam installation Post by DragBikeMike on 01/22/21 at 22:53:10 So now you have confirmed that the compression is where it should be. With that DR650 cam and Wiseco pop-top, 200 psi is right on. You ran it without an air filter so you proved that the foam filter you are using isn't restricting air flow. I assume that the performance did not improve with the filter removed. Did you verify that the carburetor slide is opening all the way (as previously suggested)? The VM38 you are running requires a lot of twist grip to fully open. Look in that carb and make sure the slide opens all the way. The 210 main jet is pretty close to where you need to be with that combination of parts. What can you tell us about your "18" reverse cone with baffles"? Where did you get it? Who manufactures it? What sort of baffles? Post some pictures. Take the baffles out and take pictures so we can see what you've got. Might be a case of constipation. Your bike should run well north of 95 mph with those engine mods. You mentioned that your bike "struggled to hit 6000 rpm in 3rd" and your comments about fuel consumption imply that its rich . You can try leaning it out with a smaller main jet but you must be careful not to run it lean in the upper gears (3rd & 4th). Tell us more about your VM38. Where did you get it? What needle jet is in there? What slide needle? You should have a 166-Q2 needle jet and a 6DP1 slide needle. Is there any chance that your alternator rotor was replaced with one from a newer LS650? Verslagen had some trouble with that. I believe he had installed an older rotor on a newer bike which resulted in grossly advanced timing and high speed misfire. If I got that right, then a newer rotor on your older bike would result in grossly retarded ignition timing. As previously mentioned, if all the above checks out you will need verify your cam timing. |
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Title: Re: DR 650 cam installation Post by nickbilljim on 01/23/21 at 03:51:27 thanks for all the advice ,I am having trouble uploading images but here is the E mail address of the exhaust https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/17-5-Universal-Reverse-Cone-Silencer-Megaphone-shorty-chrome-baffled/331725359392?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649 I have my bike booked into the local bike mechanic on monday so I will tell him all the advice you have given me ,I will let you know the result ,thanks again |
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Title: Re: DR 650 cam installation Post by nickbilljim on 01/23/21 at 04:34:37 I have worked out how to post images ,here is an image of my bike I am posting this because I was told my side panels could be forming an air vortex around the air filter at high speed |
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Title: Re: DR 650 cam installation Post by Dave on 01/23/21 at 06:14:03 That muffler will work just fine - although they are not very effective at cutting down the noise. The side panels aren't going to cause you any problems - my RYCA side panels are very similar. Your engine should easily rev and get up to 80mph quickly. What is the history of the bike? Did it run better before the recent cam/piston/carb changes? |
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Title: Re: DR 650 cam installation Post by nickbilljim on 01/23/21 at 08:04:51 the bike is an 86 model it was imported from the U S in 96,when I got it had a Voodoo slash cut exhaust ,pod filter ,stock carb rejetted to suit mods ,it would hit about 85 mph I got a 94mm piston off Lancer and a D R cam from a 1990 model ,my mechanic said he did a stage one head job lapped the valves ,increased the exhaust port to 1.5 inches before he put the new cam and piston in , with these mods it still only hit 85mph ,so I purchased a V M 38 mm carb with a size 20 pilot jet and a185 main jet the bike would hit 80 mph in 3rd gear but it did not increase in 4th so I have tried a 200 ,a 210 and a220 main jet it made no difference, next I put the new exhaust on( I now have a 200 main jet and the clip on the needle is on the top setting) the new spark plug has gone black and sooty straight away so I assumed it is running way to rich.I said to my mechanic to put a thicker needle in it but he said a smaller main jet would be better. I am taking it to the mechanic monday as it is to cold here to work outside ,where should the mechanic start |
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Title: Re: DR 650 cam installation Post by LANCER on 01/23/21 at 08:54:44 Assuming the VM is new or cleaned WELL , he should start with. 22.5 pilot, 210 main jet, the clip on the 3rd or center clip groove. Pilot screw 1.5 turns out. If the cam timing is set correctly and the carb is CLEAN throughout, there is no reason it should not work. |
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Title: Re: DR 650 cam installation Post by Dave on 01/24/21 at 03:05:00 So we do know that the ignition system parts all worked together and are properly matched.........so a mismatch of early and later parts is not an issue. The stock carb works well with piston/cam mods you have done, and when I made the changes there was very little need for jet changes - the engine ran very well with the new piston and cam. The Mikuni VM carb does provide a more responsive carb - however the stock carb still allowed the engine to make good power. The fact that both carbs have not allowed the engine to run well indicates to me it is not a carb issue). (It does not sound to me like you are having carb issues - it should run pretty well with the standard jetting and only need a small amount of changes in jetting size). Have you confirmed that the compression release cable is adjusted properly and not holding the exhaust valve open a tad? You can disconnect the cable and take a test run to confirm the compression release is not the issue. In 99 out of 100 starts the engine will start without the compression release - the starter cannot push the piston up over TDC if the piston was on the compression stroke when you pushed the starter button - most times the piston was on another stroke and the engine can spin over and start without using the compression release. If the engine stops turning over when you push the starter button - release it, put the engine in gear, and rock it forward until the piston gets off the compression stroke.....then put the transmission in neutral and push the starter button. |
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Title: Re: DR 650 cam installation Post by nickbilljim on 01/26/21 at 09:25:34 I think I have found the problem my rocker arms are shot |
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Title: Re: DR 650 cam installation Post by DragBikeMike on 01/26/21 at 10:39:13 Oh my, that's not lookin too good NBJ. Do you have any idea what happened? How does the camshaft look? Thanks for the picture. Could you also post pics of the cam and the profile of the rocker arm pad so we can get a better feel for exactly how much of the follower pad is worn away? You mentioned that a mechanic was doing the work for you. What does the mechanic think happened? You also mentioned that the DR cam was from a 1990 model. Was it a used cam? |
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Title: Re: DR 650 cam installation Post by LANCER on 01/26/21 at 12:11:44 Ouch |
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Title: Re: DR 650 cam installation Post by Dave on 01/26/21 at 14:09:18 Yikes! |
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Title: Re: DR 650 cam installation Post by ckahleer on 01/26/21 at 16:09:00 Oil starvation? Did the rockers and cam seem dry? |
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Title: Re: DR 650 cam installation Post by nickbilljim on 01/27/21 at 07:31:53 the cam is shot as well ,yes it was a 2nd hand cam but there was plenty of oil so the oil pump is fine My NEW mechanic said the case hardening on the rocker arms was probably worn thru when the old mechanic fitted the D R cam and the roughness has ground down the already worn cam. So I have learnt my lesson and have ordered new parts ,when they are fitted I will send pics of the old parts |
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Title: Re: DR 650 cam installation Post by DragBikeMike on 01/27/21 at 12:23:01 NBJ, hopefully you ordered the new version of the rocker arms. The newest version incorporates hardened pads that are brazed on to the assembly, and the arm itself is also more robust. Part numbers for intake & exhaust are 12840-24B10 and 12850-24B10 respectively. I doubt that the old versions are still available but you wouldn't want to end up with someone's old stock. This picture shows what the newer versions look like compared to an older version. |
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Title: Re: DR 650 cam installation Post by DragBikeMike on 01/27/21 at 12:23:41 This shot shows the brazed pad. |
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Title: Re: DR 650 cam installation Post by DragBikeMike on 01/27/21 at 12:26:52 You also might want to consider having oil holes drilled in the DR cam lobes. The stock LS cam incorporates oiling holes in the lobes while the DR cam does not have these holes. I have run the DR cam without holes and did not experience any problems with lubrication but I only logged about 5000 miles or so. This shows one of the holes. |
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Title: Re: DR 650 cam installation Post by nickbilljim on 01/28/21 at 03:29:28 I had the holes drilled into my D R cam before it was fitted and here is the rocker I have ordered if it is the old stock it is to late as I ordered yesterday and paid for it |
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Title: Re: DR 650 cam installation Post by nickbilljim on 01/28/21 at 05:04:16 I got on to my supplier and changed my order to the newer ones ,they are the same price. Thanks for the advice |
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Title: Re: DR 650 cam installation Post by nickbilljim on 02/09/21 at 04:07:08 I am getting the D R cam this week, what size drill bit l should I use for the oil holes on the cam |
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Title: Re: DR 650 cam installation Post by Ruttly on 02/09/21 at 11:03:08 If you have the older rockers Web Cams will weld and regrind your rockers. I had both done when they were doing the cam. Warning it ain’t cheap , most likely cheaper to buy new one. If you are reusing the rockers be sure to replace the adjuster tips , they are cheap. This is no area to get cheap , do it right or prepare to do it again , $$$ |
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Title: Re: DR 650 cam installation Post by Gary_in_NJ on 02/09/21 at 12:16:02 51565C545D5653535556523F0 wrote:
It's not so much "drilling" a hole, it's machining a hole. /dragbikemike or /dave - can you give some guidance on this? |
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Title: Re: DR 650 cam installation Post by Dave on 02/09/21 at 13:47:58 456263637B6E170 wrote:
Absolutely buy new ones - Web Cam charges $125 each! You can buy both new rockers for the price of getting one welded. |
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Title: Re: DR 650 cam installation Post by Dave on 02/09/21 at 13:54:54 I will have to go and look to see what size drill I used. I matched the size of the stock Savage camshaft. Yep, as the "nervous" type of a guy I took this a little bit more serious than a quick job with a hand drill. First I made a fixture to hold the cam in the right place....I used a stock camshaft to locate the holes. The holes are not in the center of the base lobe.....they are just before the rocker contacts the ramp for the cam to lift the rocker. Then I use a center drill to locate the correct spot for the hole and keep the small drill from wandering around. Then I drill the hole. Then I countersink the top of the hole to remove any burrs (like the factory does). Cam being drilled: |
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Title: Re: DR 650 cam installation Post by Dave on 02/09/21 at 13:55:33 I can change bits without changing the hole location - so I can center drill, drill and countersink by just changing bits......the cam stays in the same location. Photo of countersink. (Note - what looks like pits in the cam is actually shavings from the drilling). |
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Title: Re: DR 650 cam installation Post by Dave on 02/09/21 at 16:00:42 The holes in the bottom of the cam lobes are #47 drill (0.078"). The center hole in the Savage cam is #48 drill (0.076"). You might be able to use the same size drill for both - but Suzuki didn't for some reason. |
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Title: Re: DR 650 cam installation Post by nickbilljim on 02/13/21 at 02:56:45 We are fitting my new cam and rockers tomorrow ,a couple of questions before I do first how can I check if the oil is being pumped to the top end before I reassemble (the engine is still in the bike)? second I am using the savage cam sprocket on the D R cam is this correct? I know the valve clearances and the sizes of the holes to be drilled in the cam.is there anything else I really need to know before we go ahead. Again thanks for all your help |
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Title: Re: DR 650 cam installation Post by Dave on 02/13/21 at 03:57:11 You are going to use the original Suzuki Savage cam sprocket.....the DR on won't work in the Savage. The only way I know to check the oil flow into the upper end, is to get the bike running and see if there is oil splashing around. After you get the bike running, remove the front oil inspection port and look around - when you put the engine together is was dry up there......you should see that oi has been thrown around everywhere if the pump is working. If the pump is not working - not only would your cam lobes have been toast....the cam bearings would have been as well. Nobody has mentioned the cam and rocker break in yet - it is very important. I spray a thin coat of graphite spray on the cam lobes before I install the camshaft. https://www.homedepot.com/p/Blaster-5-5-oz-Industrial-Graphite-Dry-Lubricant-8-GS/202597501 You should also apply a camshaft assembly lube to the cam lobes. https://www.summitracing.com/parts/hrs-99005?rrec=true I apply a light coating of grease to the cam bearings, as it is easier to keep grease from running out onto the areas that I am going to be apply the sealer (oil is runny). This should be a very light film that won't squeeze out as the head cover is being installed. Use a good break in oil. These oils have a high ZDDP content, no multi-viscosity additives, and a very low detergent content. This give you the most oil molecules as the oil has very few additives to take up room that could be used for oil. The bad part of this oil change is that if you take off the oil filter housing - you will need to crank the engine over long enough to get the oil filter housing full of oil - and that is not a good thing on a new camshaft. I would change the oil in the crankcase and leave the filter alone. The break in oil should be used for 100 miles or so, and then replaced with Rotella T-6. https://www.competitionproducts.com/Brad-Penn-PENN-GRADE-1-Break-In-Oil-30W-Quart/productinfo/BPO30WTQT/#.YCe9mPlOmUk Once you have the above things done, you have adjusted the valve clearance and are ready to start the bike - stand the bike as upright as possible by placing a block under the kickstand. Then using the front valve inspection port - fill the trough under the camshaft with oil. You can do this with a hand oil can and an extension tube - or a squeeze bottle and a tube. When you are ready to start the bike, make sure you can get it running and up to 2,000 rpm or so right away and keep it running. Cam folks say to keep the engine running at this speed for 20 minutes or so before you shut the engine down or allow the rpm to drop. This is not a good idea on a stationary air cooled engine - so going for a ride is the best way to beat this problem. If it is impossible to go for a ride - then use fans to cool the engine. Here is the same description oriented toward cars. Procedure Install the Camshaft. Set the Valve Lash or Preload as recommended by the manufacturer. Prime the Oiling System. Set the Initial Ignition Timing. For carbureted engines, make sure fuel bowls are full and any air is bled from the fuel lines. Start the engine and immediately raise rpm to 3,000. Vary rpm between 1,500 and 3,000 for the next 20-30 minutes. Use a slow, steady acceleration/deceleration pattern. Shut down the engine and let it cool. Drain the oil and change the oil filter. This removes any metal particles from the break-in process. Refill the engine with break-in oil. The initial break-in is now complete. After the next 500 miles of normal driving, change the oil and oil filter again. Could you get it done by doing less........maybe? I just try to do as much as I can to help the cam survive the critical break in period. With a proper break in and continued maintenance the camshaft is durable......youzguyz has over 200,000 miles on his stock camshaft and the early one piece rockers. The experience of this forum shows that oil with low ZDDP causes the cam lobes and rocker pads to fail - while low idle speed results in low oil pressure and the cam bearings fail. |
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Title: Re: DR 650 cam installation Post by DragBikeMike on 02/13/21 at 10:42:14 NBJ, good luck with your new cam installation. Dave's advice is spot on. You also might want to consider some of the oiling mods outlined in this old post. They are easy to do. http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1596951230 Absolutely follow Dave's advice on pre-oiling the top end. Using an oil pump-can through an open valve cover is easy and well worth your time. If you had an oil pressure gage, you could crank it with the starter until pressure builds up on the gage. Mine usually takes about three ten-second cranks to register pressure on my gage. You have to let the strater cool for about five-minutes between crank cycles before cranking again. For reference, pre-oil, crank 10-seconds, let starter cool five-minutes, pre-oil again, repeat two more times. This old post shows some details on how to install an oil pressure gage on the Savage. http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1559853083 As you can see from the two posts, I have since moved the location of the pressure tap to the center oil passage. The pressure tap location described in the post on head cover mods is a lot easier. You could install the fitting now and cap it off until you have all the other parts you need to install the gage. That way, when you do your pre-oil, you could crack the cap loose during your pre-oiling routine and observe that oil is reaching the top end, then tighten the cap. In your case, I think its very important to verify oil is getting to your top end. I don't believe you ever arrived at any conclusive explanation for your cam and rocker failure. |
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Title: Re: DR 650 cam installation Post by nickbilljim on 02/21/21 at 04:19:14 Finally fitted new cam and rockers and in the words of my mechanic (it pulls like a steam train).The only possible cause of the wear was a missing wave washer on the exhaust rocker ,I checked the oil supply to the cam and that is working well Again thanks for all your help. I have attached a photo of the offending parts ,will the cam be of any use to someone or is it scrap |
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Title: Re: DR 650 cam installation Post by Dave on 02/21/21 at 04:37:51 Glad that it is back together and running as it should. Send the damaged Cam to Lancer.....he can use it as a core for the welding and repair to make a Webcam Stage 3 cam. |
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