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Message started by RickNeal on 11/17/20 at 22:48:23

Title: Carb Needle & Seat
Post by RickNeal on 11/17/20 at 22:48:23

Years back, I owned a 2000, Intruder 1500. It broke down and I towed it home. The rear cylinder was full of raw fuel. The o-ring in the carburetor needle/seat insert was bad. Recently, I sold a 2017 Boulevard S40 with 1,500 original miles. The new owner didn’t make it the 60 miles home. The same o-ring was again bad in the Mikuni carb. I just corrected a mechanical problem in a friend’s S40 by replacing the needle/seat o-ring. My mechanic said these o-rings should be changed every two years, and that the wear is from exposure time, not miles. For years, the standard method for seating a needle/seat in a carb was threads and a washer in all bikes and four wheel vehicles. I’ve owned many Suzukis over the years, beginning with a new1966 T20, X6 Hustler. I presently ride a 2013 Boulevard M50. Suzuki makes fine machines. But in my opinion, employing the Mikuni carb with the o-ring type needle/seat was a huge disservice to motorcycle riders. It replaced a time-proven, screw-down needle/seat connection with an unnecessary (and what I consider foreseeable) mechanical flaw.

Title: Re: Carb Needle & Seat
Post by Fast 650 on 11/18/20 at 10:57:07

What are you using for fuel? E85 has a reputation for damaging rubber parts in motorcycle carbs when used in engines not designed for E85. Gasoline containing 10% or less alcohol is fine in the older bikes, but higher amounts will cause problems with seals and o-rings.

Title: Re: Carb Needle & Seat
Post by RickNeal on 11/18/20 at 13:07:53

Regular or premium fuel at Valero, Union or Safeway (CA). Of the four o-rings I've had to replace, none have been deteriorating. They've all just lost enough resilience to let fuel by the seat. Thanks for responding.

Title: Re: Carb Needle & Seat
Post by Dennisgb on 11/18/20 at 15:30:34

Not sure it’s totally a design flaw, but is a commonly overlooked problem. I always replace these and other rubber parts when I rebuild carbs. Another one that I’ve run across that isn’t common are the orings or packings on choke pistons. Had a Yamaha I couldn’t figure out why it wouldn’t start that had bad choke piston sealing...a first, but now I inspect them.

Title: Re: Carb Needle & Seat
Post by Dave on 11/19/20 at 04:19:49

The content of gasoline varies from state to state, and it is likely some areas have fuel that is harder on rubber parts than in other areas. In some states the Premium fuel doesn't have any ethanol - and some of the major cities have "Reformulated Fuel" to help cut down on the air pollution.

Some of our bikes are getting a bit old.....and it is very likely that some rubber parts are showing the age. I have rebuilt a few carbs that needed the TEV diaphragm replaced as the rubber was no longer very flexible. As the original post suggests....the rubber O-ring on the needle/seat is also an area where age shows up - as well as the diaphragm in the vacuum petcock. The rubber boot between the air cleaner and carb is very stiff on the older bikes - and the same is true for the rubber flange between the carb and cylinder (I have replaced one that was split from age on an 87 engine).

I replace my fuel line every 2-3 years as it shrinks and becomes stiff.

If you have an older bike, store it outside or in a garage that gets really hot in the summer, or ride a lot in hot weather - you might want to consider inspecting the rubber parts for age and replacing them. This bike has been around for 30 years and is pretty durable - but rubber parts do age and will need to be replaced eventually.

Title: Re: Carb Needle & Seat
Post by flatout on 11/19/20 at 11:42:06

good gas

Title: Re: Carb Needle & Seat
Post by RickNeal on 11/19/20 at 23:01:44

I appreciate the productive responses that obviously came from experience. My main point was that the screwed-in needle valve seat and gasket can last the life of the carburetor, and engineering and dependability-wise, and the o-ring feature is inferior.

Title: Re: Carb Needle & Seat
Post by Slowlane on 12/15/20 at 21:17:50

Mine was stuck in so bad I had to destroy it to get it out.

Title: Re: Carb Needle & Seat
Post by RickNeal on 12/15/20 at 22:27:03

Most folks (including me) who own the Savage/S40 love them. If Suzuki would spend the money to re-design the bike with alloy wheels, EFI, self adjusting valves, a little larger tank, a sixth gear and a long life cam tensioner, I think they'd sell more of them. I bought my 2017 100 miles from home and rode it home. I'd have no problem riding it cross country. But it feels like you're winding it up at 60. (I wish my M50 had a sixth gear now too.) Anyhow, no more carbs for me, except my old Harley.

Title: Re: Carb Needle & Seat
Post by Slowlane on 12/17/20 at 07:46:08

I have ordered a Murry carb and will update as I install and run.

Title: Re: Carb Needle & Seat
Post by Serowbot on 12/17/20 at 10:07:23

786C687269636B000 wrote:

Pretty sure if I had a sixth gear, I'd want a seventh ;D

Title: Re: Carb Needle & Seat
Post by Gary_in_NJ on 12/17/20 at 10:51:50

I have bikes with EFI, CV Carbs and pumper carbs. When a carb(s) are set-up correctly, they are perfectly acceptable. Keeping them set up properly is mostly a function of keeping them clean. This is where EFI is actually superior to a carb; EFI is more tolerant of ethanol in the fuel. I store my carb'd bikes with 100LL to ensure the carbs are clean 5 months down the road after winter storage. EFI...fire it up and go ride. Throttle response isn't so great on the 5 month old fuel, but it only take about 100 miles of riding to add 2-3 gallons to the existing fuel to make it all happy again.

I've never had a carb let me down during the riding season. If there's going to be a problem, it will be discovered during post-winter wake up. In fact, I haven't touched the CV carb on my S40 since it was put back into service in 2015.

Title: Re: Carb Needle & Seat
Post by RickNeal on 12/17/20 at 17:59:41

Absolutely. Carbs are fine. They've fueled millions of engines for a 100+ years. I've worked on them at home for 60. But that o-ring needle and seat has let me down on the road three times. In my years of driving, I've never had a seat unscrew itself from the carb body. My point is, the o-ring is an unnecessary design flaw, perhaps intentional, like taking the dipstick out of automatic transmissions. It's a design to make it tougher on the layman and more lucrative for the mechanic.

Title: Re: Carb Needle & Seat
Post by Slowlane on 12/29/20 at 15:41:54

Like new!http://https://i.postimg.cc/dthDM2FN/Suzuki-OEM-carb-1586-19-a.jpg (https://postimg.cc/3dH3mDd2)

Title: Re: Carb Needle & Seat
Post by Dave on 12/29/20 at 17:21:48

2C262228232A2E27797F7B4B0 wrote:

I've never had a carb let me down during the riding season. If there's going to be a problem, it will be discovered during post-winter wake up. In fact, I haven't touched the CV carb on my S40 since it was put back into service in 2015.

Same with me.......I have not had the carb off my Savage since the bike was converted into the Cafe' bike and had the maiden voyage in the spring of 2013. The bike is stored indoors and at the end of each riding season the fuel is drained from the tank and the carb.

I believe most carb problems are not caused by riding - but by improper storage.

Title: Re: Carb Needle & Seat
Post by gtenginerd on 12/29/20 at 20:24:26

Where do you get 100LL? Can I ride it up to STL and say 'Filler Up'? ;D

Title: Re: Carb Needle & Seat
Post by Dave on 12/30/20 at 04:07:41

5B4859525B5552594E583C0 wrote:

Where do you get 100LL? Can I ride it up to STL and say 'Filler Up'? ;D

The best bet for getting 100LL is a small airport. I go to the Pendleton County Airport and there is never anybody there - the fuel pump uses a credit card and works just like a convenience store pump (except the nozzle is huge and they want you to enter the registration number on the plane). The chain link fence prevents me from driving out amongst the planes - and I have to take fuel jugs to purchase the fuel. If you go to a larger airport that uses fuel trucks to fill the planes - you are not likely going to get anybody to sell you fuel.

Avgas is great for storage as it doesn't have any ethanol in it, and it will never varnish up anything - it just evaporates eventually and leaves a trace of blue dye behind.

Avgas is not a direct replacement for Motogas.......it runs richer and it also contains lead and should not be used in anything with an oxygen sensor or catalytic convertor. The LL stand for "Low Lead" and is a bit misleading - it actually contains about the same amount of lead as the gas that used to be sold for cars - 100LL has less lead than the 100/130 and 115/145 Avgas that is used in high performance aircraft engines (very hard to find).

Another source of good fuel is to find a gas station near a drag racing or circle track - often there will be a place that sells lead free Cam2 or similar racing fuels. This fuel has an excellent shelf live as well. Also you can use the Pure Fuel website and find a station that sells ethanol free fuel - I got to a marina to get mine.....it is 91 octane and ethanol free (the marinas in the northern states are likely closed for the season).

Title: Re: Carb Needle & Seat
Post by Slowlane on 12/30/20 at 10:59:32

I had to beat this out with a wood dowell.http://[img]https://i.postimg.cc/59wJW97v/The-culprit-4-a.jpg (https://postimg.cc/4nNqzGTN)[/img]