SuzukiSavage.com - Print Page

SuzukiSavage.com
/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl
General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> Clunky/Tapping engine sound
/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1602953695

Message started by WunGun on 10/17/20 at 09:54:55

Title: Clunky/Tapping engine sound
Post by WunGun on 10/17/20 at 09:54:55

Hey any savage gurus know what this sound is? I took it on a long ride to work and stopped at a light and noticed it had a high idle all of a sudden and was also making this sound. It was a hot running engine and was being pushed hard for a good 40min.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HZrsB1sEKIs

Title: Re: Clunky/Tapping engine sound
Post by verslagen1 on 10/17/20 at 10:13:04

high idle after a hot run is not unusual.
it will slow down after it cools a bit.

investigate the tapping though.

Title: Re: Clunky/Tapping engine sound
Post by twhitus on 10/17/20 at 12:39:11

that sounds like a wrist pin to me. you can take a wooden dowel or stethoscope "can be cheap at auto store" and put it against the engine and other side against your ear to help pinpoint the noise. if the rockers have worn/backed off it should be coming right out the top of the engine. If its a wrist pin or piston slap it will be lower, about carb height. I dont think its a lower rod end as its to slappy sounding.

Silly question is the oil full?

Title: Re: Clunky/Tapping engine sound
Post by Dave on 10/18/20 at 10:52:59

My bike developed a knocking sound when it had 400 miles on it - by the time it had 1,200 miles it got incredibly loud. At higher engine speeds it was not noticeable - at idle it was very loud.

I eventually had to tear down the engine to see what was going on - it turned out the flywheel nut had come loose. It was a shame that I didn't find it until the engine was out of the frame and the entire top end was removed.

The sound was not isolated to the left side of the engine - the noise created by the flywheel banging around on the crankshaft splines was transmitted through the crank to the engine block, and the sound seemed like it was everywhere!

One other forum member bought a bike with a bad engine knock and proceeded to part a really nice bike out - and then discovered the flywheel nut was loose and the only problem.....unfortunately too much of the bike had been sold off to put it back together!

Title: Re: Clunky/Tapping engine sound
Post by WunGun on 10/21/20 at 20:16:12

Thanks for the replies. Flywheel is on tight and going to check the top end soon. Yes it had oil but wasn't full. Maybe half full. Could it be valves?

Title: Re: Clunky/Tapping engine sound
Post by zipidachimp on 10/22/20 at 00:01:10

inner/outer header pipe separation? I need to get mine re-welded.
Cheers! 8-)

Title: Re: Clunky/Tapping engine sound
Post by jd290 on 10/25/20 at 14:17:49

New owner of a 1998 Savage here. Had a loud (drilled muffler baffle) exhaust when I purchased the bike that I recently quieted down and now I clearly hear that exact same sound coming from the top of the cylinder. It's identical to video that you posted. Seems to be louder on the left hand side.
So far I've:
Adjusted the valves - no change
Temporarily removed the decompression shaft - no change
Interesting that it started suddenly for you. Have you checked the cam chain adjuster yet? Let us know if you find a possible cause. I'll continue to do the same.

Title: Re: Clunky/Tapping engine sound
Post by jd290 on 11/12/20 at 09:11:33

Not sure if you have taken off your cylinder head cover yet WunGun but this is what I found under mine. Utter carnage. Like I said , same exact tapping/Pinging noise as your posted video.

Title: Re: Clunky/Tapping engine sound
Post by jd290 on 11/12/20 at 09:13:01

This is the head cover/Rocker arms

Title: Re: Clunky/Tapping engine sound
Post by LANCER on 11/12/20 at 09:40:28

Nasty nasty nasty. [ch128547]
And a big OUCH ! [ch128543]

Title: Re: Clunky/Tapping engine sound
Post by jd290 on 11/12/20 at 10:17:24

Yep, can't believe it idling and running as well as it did except for the tapping noise! At the very least this is going to be cyl head, cam and head cover with rockers. Hope it doesn't absolutely require the engine out. I'm working on it outdoors in a parking lot.

Title: Re: Clunky/Tapping engine sound
Post by DragBikeMike on 11/12/20 at 17:49:20

Sorry to give you bad news but the engine must come out in order to remove the head. Your pictures point to an oil problem. The only place I see any oil is in the head plug. You really must check your oil system before you light it off again.

Dave had a head assembly for sale.

Title: Re: Clunky/Tapping engine sound
Post by jd290 on 11/12/20 at 20:01:25

I wipe it down before taking pictures but definitely going to check for oiling system issues. It leaked oil pretty badly from the head plug so it seems like oil was getting to top end. Only had possession of the bike for about a month now and am thinking the previous owner let it get low on oil. There is a thread somewhere on this forum where some guys were saying you can remove front bottom engine mount and loosen the rear to lower the engine for clearance to remove head. Hope this is true for 1998. Only has 7000 mi. and would like to save it.

Title: Re: Clunky/Tapping engine sound
Post by niceast on 11/12/20 at 20:05:22

323C6A6168580 wrote:

I was able to remove the head without removing the engine. its possible

Title: Re: Clunky/Tapping engine sound
Post by BobH on 11/13/20 at 06:05:30

407B7661707C67617A727F60130 wrote:

I eventually had to tear down the engine to see what was going on - it turned out the flywheel nut had come loose. It was a shame that I didn't find it until the engine was out of the frame and the entire top end was removed.

Is this a big enough issue that the nut should be checked even if we don't have any noise? Is this nut easy to get to? Is the nut Number 9 in the diagram?
http://https://i.postimg.cc/bNWpL1nb/Flywheel.jpg

Title: Re: Clunky/Tapping engine sound
Post by DragBikeMike on 11/14/20 at 11:03:56

jd290, you actually wiped out the reservoir directly beneath your cam lobes? That reservoir should have been full of oil. Was the reservoir full of oil when you removed the head cover?

niceast, can you tell us all a little more regarding how you were able to remove your cylinder head without pulling the engine? That would be some valuable info. Please give some detail on how you did it. Did you remove mount bolts and let the engine drop in the frame? How did you get the head high enough to clear the right-rear cylinder stud?

Anyone else able to remove the cylinder head with the engine still in the frame?

Title: Re: Clunky/Tapping engine sound
Post by jd290 on 11/14/20 at 14:44:11

(jd290, you actually wiped out the reservoir directly beneath your cam lobes? That reservoir should have been full of oil. Was the reservoir full of oil when you removed the head cover?)
I did not wipe out underneath the came lobes. That area had some oil down there but definitely not filled. That small cutout near the bottom of the intake valve spring seems to be the only place where oil can get in/out of the reservoir. I suppose the cam chain dragging oil up to the head would explain why I was still getting oil leaking out of the head plug even if there was little or no oil pressure. What do you think? Seems like an awful lot destruction just from low oil.

Title: Re: Clunky/Tapping engine sound
Post by DragBikeMike on 11/15/20 at 15:33:36

" What do you think?"

I think you didn't have any oil pressure/oil flow to your top end. That reservoir (I call it a "trough") should have been full of oil. And there should have been oil all over everything up there. Like a complete sloppy mess of oil all over everything.

The top end is pressure fed, not splash oil off the cam chain. Oil enters the head cover here.

Title: Re: Clunky/Tapping engine sound
Post by DragBikeMike on 11/15/20 at 15:36:16

Then the pressurized oil flows through passages in the head cover to the two cam bearings. The oil enters each bearing through these feed holes.

Title: Re: Clunky/Tapping engine sound
Post by DragBikeMike on 11/15/20 at 15:44:44

Each bearing has chamfers at the split line. These chamfers are critical as they route pressurized oil off the bearings to the oil reservoir (trough) for the cam lobes and also to the center of the hollow camshaft. The chamfers are shown here.

Title: Re: Clunky/Tapping engine sound
Post by DragBikeMike on 11/15/20 at 15:50:59

The cam lobes dip into the oil reservoir (trough) as the cam rotates. In addition, the pressurized oil is forced through the hollow camshaft and exits the cam lobes through these holes to provide additional oil film between the lobe and rocker arm pad. Some of the oil flowing through these holes most certainly ends up dribbling down into the reservoir.

Title: Re: Clunky/Tapping engine sound
Post by DragBikeMike on 11/15/20 at 15:53:02

Sealant is a common problem with oil flow to the critical components in the head. I can see from your photos that there was a heavy application of sealant. See the heavy globs of sealant that were squeezed out from the head cover to cylinder head joint adjacent to the cam sprocket.

Title: Re: Clunky/Tapping engine sound
Post by DragBikeMike on 11/15/20 at 16:03:29

If that sealant is applied around the cam bearings, and if it gets squeezed out into the critical chamfers in the cam bearings, oil flow is cut off to the reservoir (trough) and to the center of the hollow cam.

Your failure is so dramatic it's impossible to tell if there was sealant in your cam bearing chamfers. But the damage to your cam journal could only have been the result of zero oil.

Title: Re: Clunky/Tapping engine sound
Post by DragBikeMike on 11/15/20 at 16:04:17

And the rocker arm follower pads sure look like they could have used a squirt or two.

Title: Re: Clunky/Tapping engine sound
Post by DragBikeMike on 11/15/20 at 16:06:42

When you have it apart, check the oil passages from the lower end to the top end. Make sure that they are clear all the way up to and through the cylinder head cover. I don't think you are getting pressurized oil up to your camshaft and rocker arms.

Make sure you check the passages along the clutch cover.

Title: Re: Clunky/Tapping engine sound
Post by DragBikeMike on 11/15/20 at 16:13:24

Also, check the oil passages from the pump through the clutch cover and filter. This old post provides info on the clutch cover oil passages.

http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1586363497

You must figure out why it wasn't getting oil to the top end.

Good luck,

Mike

Title: Re: Clunky/Tapping engine sound
Post by jd290 on 11/16/20 at 14:02:55

DragBikeMike-- Excellent tutorial on how the oil system works on these engines! Will make troubleshooting so much easier. Very much appreciated.
First thing I did after taking possession of the bike was change the oil. (not the filter) It had a strange dull look to it and was thicker than what I would have expected. Wondering now if the previous owner tried using some sort of 'stop leak' to 'fix' the head plug leak. He did mention doing some work on the clutch and the side cover gasket doesn't look OEM. Sticks out about a quarter inch around cover. Someone on this forum mentioned the importance of using an OEM gasket and judging from those photos you posted of the oil passage locations, a badly fitting gasket might block those passages. Another post mentions losing the locator pin behind the oil pump gear when taking off clutch the basket causing the oil pump to disengage. Only one way to find out.

Title: Re: Clunky/Tapping engine sound
Post by jd290 on 03/28/21 at 11:34:19

So, the weather warmed up around here and I was able to pop off the clutch cover to find out why the motors top end grenaded. First thing I checked was the oil pump driven gear and sure enough it just spun freely. Very bad. (DragBikeMike, you called it when you said the top end was getting little or no pressurized oil.) Turns out the previous owner put the oil pump drive gear in backwards when he took the clutch apart. The pin was still intact so I didn't have to go fishing for it inside the engine case. Surprisingly there was no obvious damage to the bottom end of the motor or cylinder bore from what I could see, so I took a chance and re-installed the the oil pump drive gear correctly, found a matching head, cam and head cover on E-bay and bolted it all up. Sounds and rides great. Absolutely no unusual noises. Valve train is quiet when cold and slight ticking when hot.
Will be making a donation to this site.

Title: Re: Clunky/Tapping engine sound
Post by DragBikeMike on 03/29/21 at 16:23:23

Bravo. Good job. Good info.