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Message started by SavageMan99 on 06/21/20 at 17:22:19

Title: A good clutch diagram?
Post by SavageMan99 on 06/21/20 at 17:22:19

Anyone have a good clutch assembly diagram?
My clymers actually discusses and has pics of two totally different clutches. It also says something about two washers, one larger than the other, that affect oil flow to the clutch?
I didn't see them when I was in it.
I did install the oil pump drive backward, but haven't run the bike, so I'm going back into it tomorrow.

Title: Re: A good clutch diagram?
Post by Ruttly on 06/21/20 at 19:39:23

I checked both of my manuals and they don't show a good breakdown. So go to Suzukipartsmonster.com , usually a parts breakdown can help locate every part and sometimes the order of assembly. Good luck

Title: Re: A good clutch diagram?
Post by youzguyz on 06/22/20 at 08:20:22

If you don't have the The Savage Companion Photo CD, get it:

http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1199986392

Lots of good pictures about the clutch.

Title: Re: A good clutch diagram?
Post by Gary_in_NJ on 06/22/20 at 09:20:19

I can't imagine a better exploded view than the one in the Clymer manual. I just re-read Chapter 5 in its entirety and it seems clear to me. Can you point there where it is providing conflicting information and perhaps we can clear it up.

Title: Re: A good clutch diagram?
Post by Ruttly on 06/22/20 at 13:54:57

Exact same as the parts breakdown, well maybe even clearer.

Title: Re: A good clutch diagram?
Post by SavageMan99 on 06/23/20 at 14:42:29

It may just be my book, but it goes from pics of the right clutch, to one with springs oriented horizontal around the clutch basket.
It also describe a different clutch on those pages.
Anyhow, the clutch is in now, and when I get a few more things done on it, I'll get it out to try.

Title: Re: A good clutch diagram?
Post by armchairbiker on 06/29/20 at 11:54:44

I keep reading about some pin that one needs to take special care not drop/lose or else the oil pump doesn't engage. Is that something I should keep in mind if I want to disassemble the clutch basket?

Title: Re: A good clutch diagram?
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 06/29/20 at 14:19:09

Pay Particular attention to the oil pump drive gear. Its easy to get in backwards and the pump wotnt pump.

When ya get to that gear, I cant remember if you must remove it or not,, but what a bummer if it falls out,, not sure now,, its been years,, Clean a spot and put something on it,, I use sharpies,, just KNOW which is the outside of that gear..
Keep up with each side cover bolt, in order, and with the sealing washers, by sticking them in a piece of cardboard with an outline and a slot for every bolt

Avoid a puzzle,,

The care required to put it together without causing a problem cant be overstated..
Several easy passes torquing them, thumb on 1/4" ratchet head, fingertips bringing the ratchet around, no closed fist, dont use your arm, fingers,, FEEL of them,, If youre coming around on the third pass and one doeasnt wanna turn,, Dont turn it,,
Fixin a leak is a Lot easier than fixin stripped threads or busted bolt,,

Title: Re: A good clutch diagram?
Post by DragBikeMike on 06/29/20 at 19:05:04

Armchair, the pin in question is piece (26) in the illustration that Gary posted. It's best to install some sort of cleanliness plugs in the openings in the crankcase before you try to pull off the clutch assembly. It's easy to lose the pin. It can drop out and roll into the crankcase.

The pin locks the oil pump drive gear (27) to the clutch basket. If the pin isn't installed the drive gear won't turn with the clutch basket.

Title: Re: A good clutch diagram?
Post by och on 08/11/23 at 13:59:56

Found this thread - I was just taking apart my clutch cover, and found the pin 26 inside the case. My mechanic replaced my clutch about a month ago, and the clutch just didn't feel right ever since, so I opened up the cover to inspect it and found the pin loose in the case. It is a 6mm by 6mm pin.

Does that mean my oil was not pumping? I have only put on maybe 200-300 miles on the bike since, and I just drained the oil to inspect the clutch, and the oil was completely black, worst I've ever seen.

Title: Re: A good clutch diagram?
Post by verslagen1 on 08/11/23 at 14:31:42

that's a shame... time to fire the mechanic.
not that anyone couldn't have made the same mistake.
no oil at speed will most likely take years off the engine.

there's also a possibility that the gear was installed backward and disengage with the pump gear. both can easily be checked before sealing up.

Title: Re: A good clutch diagram?
Post by och on 08/11/23 at 15:52:23

This gets worse. Took apart the clutch basket, the gear behind it was installed backwards and the pin dropped - at least luckily i found the pin in the engine case. The 32mm nut was also loose, luckily held by the bent washer. Being loose, i was able to take it off with my fingers, now i gotta run to home depot to get an impact to put it back on. What is the torque spec on that nut?

Title: Re: A good clutch diagram?
Post by och on 08/11/23 at 15:56:20

I just shot this video and sent to my mechanic. I just hope my engine isn't toast at this point - he did the clutch twice, first time with Barnett springs and it was dragging badly, and then second time around with stock springs. I could've put on about 600 miles on the bike since then with the oil pump disengaged.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zx6pIK9G-7I

Title: Re: A good clutch diagram?
Post by verslagen1 on 08/11/23 at 19:26:59

http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1098848534

look for clutch locknut

Title: Re: A good clutch diagram?
Post by DragBikeMike on 08/12/23 at 09:51:34

OCH, fantastic video. You did a great job on that video. It should go in the tech section with a title like "Oil Pump Drive Pin - Installation Problem". One of the moderators should grab that link and put it in the tech section.

All is not lost. You have a number of things in your favor.

1. The heavy wear on the engine case (around the transmission input bearing) shows that the gear was turning. Based on the amount of wear (sufficient to hold the gear centered around the shaft when you release it) indicates that it was turning a lot and there must have been significant driving force. The pin might have remained in place for the entire time you ran the engine, or at least most of the time you ran the engine.

2. You removed the head cover, so you know what things look like in there. I suspect the head assembly would be the first area in the engine that would fail due to low or no oil pressure. Since you had the head cover off, you know what things look like in there. As I recall, your valve clearance was normal (always a good sign), but you mentioned that the cam looked unusual. If you have some pictures, maybe you could post them. We could help you assess any damage.

3. The engine was still operational when you started taking it apart, so you don't have any valves stuck open.

4. Now you know for certain that the mechanic you were using is not a very good mechanic. It's great that you shared that video with him/her. It will help the mechanic learn and improve. I am anxious to hear about the mechanic's response. Also, curious to hear if the mechanic will reach out to you and try to compensate you for the trouble and damage. They should at least return every penny of your money.

5. You are learning a whole bunch of stuff, improving your skills, and probably acquiring a bunch of new tools.

Keep at it brother. Don't give up.

Title: Re: A good clutch diagram?
Post by och on 08/12/23 at 11:44:24

66606F13111612220 wrote:

OCH, fantastic video. You did a great job on that video. It should go in the tech section with a title like "Oil Pump Drive Pin - Installation Problem". One of the moderators should grab that link and put it in the tech section.

Absolutely, this will be a good reference for someone doing their clutch for the first time in the future.

All is not lost. You have a number of things in your favor.

1. The heavy wear on the engine case (around the transmission input bearing) shows that the gear was turning. Based on the amount of wear (sufficient to hold the gear centered around the shaft when you release it) indicates that it was turning a lot and there must have been significant driving force. The pin might have remained in place for the entire time you ran the engine, or at least most of the time you ran the engine.

Good noticing on the engine case wear, i guess the gear must have been spinning, and since it was on the wrong way it was spinning against the case and not the washer. I doubt the pin was, but I think the gear could've been spinning by centrifugal forces, perhaps not at the full speed.

2. You removed the head cover, so you know what things look like in there. I suspect the head assembly would be the first area in the engine that would fail due to low or no oil pressure. Since you had the head cover off, you know what things look like in there. As I recall, your valve clearance was normal (always a good sign), but you mentioned that the cam looked unusual. If you have some pictures, maybe you could post them. We could help you assess any damage.

The valves were in spec, and the chambers/cavities where the intake valves and camshaft live were full of oil, so I think they are fine. The oil was badly burnt, the darked I've ever seen, but I guess its better than nothing, and I only put on very few miles on the bike. I set the valves dead to .004 just in case, they were at .005" before. I didn't see any damage or excessive wear on the camshaft, but I did notice that it is very cheaply manufactured - the lobes are only polished where they touch against the rockers, the rest of the lobes' width have rough casting remaining, so if the lobe is say 10mm wide only 8mm is polished. I've google photos of Savage camshafts and it seems that they are all like that. I don't think it matters functionally, but it's a sign of extreme cost cutting during manufacturing, correct me if I'm wrong.

3. The engine was still operational when you started taking it apart, so you don't have any valves stuck open.

Yes, the engine was running strong, just making a rattling noise which prompted me to open it up. I don't know if I have fixed the noise for good as I haven't started the engine yet, first I have to deal with the stropped 130mm head bolt, but I have eliminated several potential sources of the rattle - got the valves adjusted to perfect spec, removed loose chunk of metal out of exhaust (it was left there when I welded on the Dyna muffler), installed the gear and the securing pin correctly, and tightened the clutch basket nut.

4. Now you know for certain that the mechanic you were using is not a very good mechanic. It's great that you shared that video with him/her. It will help the mechanic learn and improve. I am anxious to hear about the mechanic's response. Also, curious to hear if the mechanic will reach out to you and try to compensate you for the trouble and damage. They should at least return every penny of your money.

I spoke to the shop owner but I didn't push too hard. I understand that we are all humans and make mistakes, and his technician that was doing the repair must not have been familiar with the bike as the shop mostly does Harleys, but still it was a bad job on many levels - gear put on wrong, loose pin, loose nut. I got offered a free oil change next time, but I don't know if I trust the shop anymore.

5. You are learning a whole bunch of stuff, improving your skills, and probably acquiring a bunch of new tools.

Keep at it brother. Don't give up.

Yep, bought a few new tools, including an impact wrench, and gained quite a bit of experience and learned a thing or two. The biggest thing I learned, for the millionth time, - if you want it done right do it yourself.

Title: Re: A good clutch diagram?
Post by Surviving Philly on 08/12/23 at 22:50:18

I'm sorry but that response from the shop is totally inadequate. The incompetency of that tech could have cost you the motor -- as a shade tree, if I can teach myself how to change the clutch on a busy city sidewalk in 90 degree heat with a manual and a phone, that guy can make sure he doesn't brick your bike.

Sorry och that just grinds my gears, you deserve your money back.

Title: Re: A good clutch diagram?
Post by DragBikeMike on 08/13/23 at 19:42:54

"The oil was badly burnt, the darked I've ever seen"

I suspect the oil is so dark because of all the aluminum wear products. The gear plunged into the engine case quite a ways.

"I didn't see any damage or excessive wear on the camshaft, but I did notice that it is very cheaply manufactured - the lobes are only polished where they touch against the rockers, the rest of the lobes' width have rough casting remaining, so if the lobe is say 10mm wide only 8mm is polished. I've google photos of Savage camshafts and it seems that they are all like that. I don't think it matters functionally, but it's a sign of extreme cost cutting during manufacturing, correct me if I'm wrong."

The cam is a typical flame-hardened camshaft. They do all the machining and grinding and then flame harden the camshaft. That's why the areas that are not subjected to wear are still black. Generally, only the bearing journals and nose of each lobe get polished off during operation.

"installed the gear and the securing pin correctly, and tightened the clutch basket nut."

I hope you made sure that all parts are present and accounted for. There are two thrust washers in the assembly, but you only showed one in your video. Considering how bad the workmansip was, you should have disassembled the clutch completely and confirmed correct installation of the plates, thrust washers, wave-washer & seat, everything. The mechanic clearly didn't understand the job. You now know that, so you can't trust anything that was done by the shop. You must check every detail.

Also, did you examine the wear on your case and make a determination whether or not it is superficial or has a detrimental impact on the assembly. I can't tell much from your vid, but it is obvious that there is a lot of wear.

"I got offered a free oil change next time, but I don't know if I trust the shop anymore."

Correct, you can't trust them anymore, not even to change oil. But every cloud has a silver lining. You will now become a journeyman LS650 mechanic. 8-)

Title: Re: A good clutch diagram?
Post by DragBikeMike on 08/13/23 at 19:47:31

This is a brand-new unused DR650 cam shaft. Every surface is a dark brown/black color because of the flame hardening process. Only the parts that are in contact with the bearings or the cam followers will get polished during operation. The base circle of each cam lobe will remain black because of the valve clearance, but the nose of each lobe will get polished as it pushes on the cam follwer to open the valve.

Title: Re: A good clutch diagram?
Post by och on 08/14/23 at 07:57:33

Mike thanks so much for all the help! Hoping to get the bike finished this week - just gotta deal with the stripped head bolt, fill with oil, and then I can finally test ride it. Hopefully its going to be all good now.