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SuzukiSavage.com
/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> UFO Installation & Test /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1586597297 Message started by DragBikeMike on 04/11/20 at 02:28:17 |
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Title: UFO Installation & Test Post by DragBikeMike on 04/11/20 at 02:28:17 This report gives the details for installation of an Ultimate Flow Optimizer (UFO) in a Mikuni VM38 carburetor. It also summarizes the test results after installation. The UFO is a device that’s intended to eliminate turbulence and increase air flow through the carburetor. The product is marketed by Thunder Products, Inc. (TPI). Their phone number is (320) 597-2700. Their website is thunderproducts.com. TPI lists a whole bunch of things you can expect from the UFO, including but not limited to: -More horsepower with less fuel -Broader powerband -Exceptional throttle response -Simple installation Lancer was kind enough to loan me a UFO for this test. I installed it and had a lot of fun, learned a few things too. Let’s get started. Here’s what you get in the kit. On the left is a drill guide that you use to drill a hole in the bottom of the slide. On the right is the UFO. On the bottom is a self-tapping screw that is used to secure the UFO to the slide. The kit also has instructions, but they leave out a few tuning details. |
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Title: Re: UFO Installation & Test Post by DragBikeMike on 04/11/20 at 02:29:17 The standard VM38 carburetor comes with a #2.5 slide. The UFO is intended for use with a #3.5 slide. The instructions tell you to grind the slide to suit the UFO. I decided to purchase a new #3.5 slide. That way, I would be able to switch back & forth for comparative testing (and oh boy, I did I a lot of switchin back & forth). Here’s a look at the 3.5 slide with UFO installed next to the standard (as-delivered) 2.5 slide. The UFO fits perfectly. It’s a high-quality plastic part. |
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Title: Re: UFO Installation & Test Post by DragBikeMike on 04/11/20 at 02:30:43 The first step in the installation process is to get a good baseline on your jetting. My VM38 was dialed in perfectly with a wide-band air/fuel ratio meter so I knew I had a good baseline. PJ 22.5 MJ 210 NJ Q-2 Needle 6DP1 Clip middle groove Air screw 1-5/8 turns Main Air Bleed 0.5 Slide 2.5 |
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Title: Re: UFO Installation & Test Post by DragBikeMike on 04/11/20 at 02:31:24 Once you have a good baseline, remove the carburetor and start the installation. The instructions tell you it’s gonna run rich at idle, so you need to reduce the size of the pilot jet. I spoke with Lon at TPI and he advised me not to go below a #15 pilot jet so I installed a #17.5. |
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Title: Re: UFO Installation & Test Post by DragBikeMike on 04/11/20 at 02:32:52 Now that you have a leaner pilot jet installed, it’s time to drill the slide. You use the drill guide to line up the hole location on the bottom of the slide. A drill press is in needed for this operation. Also note the soft copper strips between the jaws of the vice and the slide. You don’t want to mar the slide surface. |
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Title: Re: UFO Installation & Test Post by DragBikeMike on 04/11/20 at 02:33:46 After the screw hole has been drilled through the bottom of the slide, turn it over and use a larger drill to make a countersink for the screw head. The instructions provide all the details, including recommended drill sizes. Always use the soft copper strips between the jaws of the vice and the slide. |
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Title: Re: UFO Installation & Test Post by DragBikeMike on 04/11/20 at 02:35:03 The drilling is finished, install the UFO in the slide. Use the screw to lock the UFO in place. Make sure that the head of the screw is slightly below the surface of the slide. If it sticks up, the slide needle won’t be captured properly, and your mid-range mixture might be erratic. |
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Title: Re: UFO Installation & Test Post by DragBikeMike on 04/11/20 at 02:35:44 That’s all there is to the installation. It’s time to put the carb back together, test air flow, and dial it in. |
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Title: Re: UFO Installation & Test Post by DragBikeMike on 04/11/20 at 02:36:42 On the poor man’s flow bench, the VM38 with UFO flowed 180 cfm @ 15” H2O. The standard VM38 flowed 178 cfm, so looks like I picked up about 2 cfm. It was time to run it. |
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Title: Re: UFO Installation & Test Post by DragBikeMike on 04/11/20 at 02:38:06 It didn’t take long to figure out that TPI wasn’t kidding when they said you need a smaller pilot jet. This thing was grossly rich at idle. The air screw was completely ineffective. I could hardly breath while the thing was running. I’m not gonna go into all the gory details. I tried all the smaller pilot jets (#15, #12.5, #10, and one plugged with epoxy). The smaller pilots barely improved the over- rich idle. Then, at the advice of Lancer and Lon, I drilled a hole in the needle jet hood. Still too rich at idle. |
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Title: Re: UFO Installation & Test Post by DragBikeMike on 04/11/20 at 02:38:58 I shortened the needle jet hood in small increments, and eventually removed it all together. |
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Title: Re: UFO Installation & Test Post by DragBikeMike on 04/11/20 at 02:39:46 I tried smaller needle jets all the way down to a P-4. |
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Title: Re: UFO Installation & Test Post by DragBikeMike on 04/11/20 at 02:40:24 I tried larger main air bleeds. All sorts of combinations of main air bleeds, pilot jets, main jets, needle jets, and slide-needle positions. If you’re gonna get into one of these contraptions, you better have a good selection of jets. That jet case that comes in Lancer’s kit is a sweet place to start, but you will have to add a few more jets if you plan to get serious. |
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Title: Re: UFO Installation & Test Post by DragBikeMike on 04/11/20 at 02:41:26 Ultimately, I ended up with the following combination of jets. PJ 15 MJ 260 NJ Q-2 with hood removed Needle 6DP1 Clip bottom groove (max rich) Air screw 2-5/8 turns Main Air Bleed 0.5 Slide 3.5 with UFO It ran very good except for idle. The idle was OK but not perfect. It was a bit erratic and couldn’t hold a speed setting. Sometimes it would idle up to 1800 rpm or so, and other times it would idle too low. You could back out on the stop screw and it would speed up (????). Other than idle, it felt great. I decided it was as good as I was ever gonna get it. |
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Title: Re: UFO Installation & Test Post by DragBikeMike on 04/11/20 at 02:43:01 I did a series of runs with my GoPro zeroed in on the air/fuel (A/F) meter. With the engine up to full operating temperature, I recorded A/F at idle, 2500 rpm level-cruise, 3500 rpm level-cruise, 4500 rpm level-cruise, 4000 rpm up a grade, and WOT 3rd gear all the way past 7000 rpm. After reviewing the videos to verify that the A/F was optimized, I reconfigured the carburetor back to the baseline and did the same series of runs with the GoPro zeroed in on the A/F meter. I repeated this test several times, back & forth (UFO, no UFO, etc.) until I was satisfied that the data was consistent & repeatable. Note that it always developed the erratic idle in the UFO configuration, and always idled perfectly in the standard configuration. The rich idle issue isn’t a loose/leaky manifold, it’s directly attributable to the UFO. Here are the results of those tests. The standard configuration and the UFO configuration were almost identical. BTW, the higher the A/F number the leaner the mixture. For instance, 12.0 represents 12.0:1 which is 12 parts air to 1-part fuel. |
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Title: Re: UFO Installation & Test Post by DragBikeMike on 04/11/20 at 02:44:04 I observed the air/fuel ratio behavior during transient operation. I would roll the throttle on and accelerate at a moderate pace, then shut the throttle and decelerate. Note that on deceleration, the standard carb configuration had very mild afterfire, the typical cackle/crackle, but never any KABOOMS. The UFO carb had absolutely zero afterfire, no cackle/crackle, no KABOOMS. |
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Title: Re: UFO Installation & Test Post by DragBikeMike on 04/11/20 at 02:46:02 Now that all the air fuel/ratio checks were out of the way, I was ready to test acceleration. I started with my standard 4000 rpm to 7000 rpm 2nd gear pulls. The two configurations were close, within about one-tenth of a second. Standard configuration: 2.86 seconds UFO configuration: 3.00 seconds Since the two configurations were close in 2nd gear, I decided to try pulls in 3rd gear. That would be more rigorous and provide a better indication as to which configuration makes more WOT power. I did timed pulls in 3rd gear from 4000 rpm to 7000 rpm. Standard configuration: 7.72 seconds UFO configuration: 8.20 seconds The standard configuration is the clear winner of the acceleration test. |
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Title: Re: UFO Installation & Test Post by DragBikeMike on 04/11/20 at 02:46:52 I don’t have a way to measure part throttle torque or power, but I felt that if part throttle torque is better, then fuel economy should also be improved. I already had tested the fuel economy for the standard configuration when I did the carburetor shootout. The VM38 got a best of 59.2 mpg. So, I took the UFO configured carburetor on exactly the same fuel mileage test loop. Due to the Covid19 shutdown, conditions were optimum for achieving good fuel economy. There were almost no cars on the road. The UFO carb used 1.66 gallons of 92 octane on the 79-mile test loop. That works out to 47.6 mpg. |
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Title: Re: UFO Installation & Test Post by DragBikeMike on 04/11/20 at 02:47:44 Regarding the increased air flow with the UFO, I’m not sure if the slight increase (2 cfm) is due to the UFO, the shortened needle jet hood, or simply the margin of error. There is a bit less clutter in the venturi with that hood out of the way. |
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Title: Re: UFO Installation & Test Post by DragBikeMike on 04/11/20 at 02:49:30 Conclusion: Seat-o-da-pants the UFO carb and the standard carb are very close. While the standard carb feels crisp the UFO carb feels torquey. But that seat-o-da-pants stuff can fool you. Hard data tells the real story. IMO, the standard carburetor works much better without the UFO. It mixes better. It idles perfectly. It makes more power. It gets significantly better fuel mileage. It’s way easier and cheaper to tune. I really can’t see any advantage to the UFO other than zero afterfire. I think I gave it a fair test. I tried my best to get it to work as advertised. I hope you find this report helpful. Thanks to Lancer for letting me try out the UFO. Knowledge is power. Stay safe out there, respect the Vid19. It’s serious stuff. Mike |
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Title: Re: UFO Installation & Test Post by ohiomoto on 04/12/20 at 06:14:45 Most people would have just installed the UFO and then came on here to tell everyone how awesome it is because they just spent all of this time and money on it. :) |
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Title: Re: UFO Installation & Test Post by Fabricio Bino on 04/30/20 at 04:57:03 Very good information! It`s interesting, your vm38 is different from mine, I bought it used recently, but im not sure if its an older version |
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Title: Re: UFO Installation & Test Post by Fabricio Bino on 04/30/20 at 04:58:05 The other side: |
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Title: Re: UFO Installation & Test Post by Armen on 04/30/20 at 06:40:24 Another well researched and well written piece. Thanks muchly!! |
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Title: Re: UFO Installation & Test Post by Eegore on 05/01/20 at 07:43:25 I didn't switch UFO out on one carb but did multiple switches of identical carbs except for the UFO modification on one, and not the other. I agree that the bike "feels" more responsive with the Mikuni and UFO, but performs on paper better without the UFO. The stock is definitely more consistent. I eventually tossed out all the additions and the Mikuni carbs. |
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Title: Re: UFO Installation & Test Post by hotrod on 05/01/20 at 07:54:52 Maybe it's mind over matter. I'm sticking with the UFO. The bike feels like it has more power. My carb is a vm 36mm. |
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Title: Re: UFO Installation & Test Post by DragBikeMike on 05/01/20 at 13:36:49 Fabricio, yes your VM is a bit different. Any idea what this hose nipple is for? I've never seen a nipple in that location. It's not vacuum since it's upstream of the slide. |
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Title: Re: UFO Installation & Test Post by DragBikeMike on 05/01/20 at 13:44:57 Hey HotRod. How did you set up your idle mixture? Did you have issues with it being overly rich? Lancer has posted that the UFO I had was a newer version. It's supposedly a lot different than the older UFOs. Do you know if your UFO is the newer version or the older version? Do you have any pictures? Do you happen to have any info regarding the difference between the newer version and the older version? Eegore, you stated "I eventually tossed out all the additions and the Mikuni carbs." Are you saying that you ditched the VM carb entirely? What carb are you running now? |
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Title: Re: UFO Installation & Test Post by Eegore on 05/01/20 at 20:47:26 I have one with a Mikuni VM-38-9 Part#001-040 with UFO. . The other two have stock carbs at this time, no UFO. |
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Title: Re: UFO Installation & Test Post by hotrod on 05/02/20 at 10:26:14 DragBikeMike ; I got my UFO about 9 months ago. Not sure if it's a old or new style. I had to sand the outer edge a little so it would drop into the slide. Still a tight fit, but flush. At first I could not control the idle because the UFO would not let the slide close to the bottom. A little more fine sanding fixed that. I ended up with a #15 pilot jet, a hole drilled in the needle jet hood, and the mixture screw about 1.4 turns out. I did try the blocked pilot but didn't like the lack of control in that section. Only by checking the spark plug do I see any sign of over rich at idle. No smoke from the exhaust. I'm running a KN cone filter at the end of the stock manifold hose and the DR cam. |
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Title: Re: UFO Installation & Test Post by hotrod on 05/02/20 at 10:30:53 I'm happy with this setup. I wonder if it's possible that there is a better chance of getting it tuned using the vm36 instead of the 38mm. |
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Title: Re: UFO Installation & Test Post by hotrod on 05/02/20 at 10:45:08 CORRECTION....My mixture screw is about one half of a turn out. :o :o |
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Title: Re: UFO Installation & Test Post by norm92de on 05/02/20 at 20:59:24 Gentlemen if it isn't broken don't try to fix it! :'( |
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Title: Re: UFO Installation & Test Post by eau de sauvage on 05/02/20 at 23:59:13 60666915171014240 wrote:
And I'll wager there's a fair few people who would deem the zero crackle and afterfire another disadvantage anyway. Well done. I'll bet the the after market K&N air filter also shows no measurable improvement at best. Event taking into account that it doesn't fit anyway. Knowledge most certainly is power. |
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Title: Re: UFO Installation & Test Post by eau de sauvage on 05/03/20 at 00:02:43 19303C3C342360510 wrote:
i.e. If you don't mind wasting your time and money then it doesn't matter :D |
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Title: Re: UFO Installation & Test Post by hotrod on 05/03/20 at 09:01:31 It's just like a beautiful woman. You can't keep your hands off her. ;D ;D |
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Title: Re: UFO Installation & Test Post by Ruttly on 05/03/20 at 12:19:23 DBM , Any plans on debunkIng claims on the Quad Flow Wingy Thingy or Dialajet or Intelajet ? |
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Title: Re: UFO Installation & Test Post by DragBikeMike on 05/04/20 at 01:14:58 HotRod I love your analogy. Yep, the Savage is just like a pretty woman. Ruttly, I currently have no plans for a dial-a-jet or one of those wingy thingies, but you never can tell. I've got a bunch of projects in the mill now and the VM carb is workin so sweet I'm reluctant to mess with it. I was just telling the Fastman that I feel like a traitor. I abandoned my old Super-E after 30 years of faithful service. What a snake I am. ;) |
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Title: Re: UFO Installation & Test Post by Ruttly on 05/04/20 at 11:53:10 I'm not sure when the Mikuni VM came to our shore , but it's been used since I was a kid in basically the same form with only minor changes. It been used in pro racing of all sorts since then. There is no better and easier to tune carb for the money. Racers love them because of that cause money saved is spent elsewhere on the race bike. So Mike you have rediscovered just that. What is old is new. I like it cause I can tune by the seat of my pants with just indexing throttle , and a recent addition on a infrared temperature gun. I haven't even looked at my spark plug , I will when I get a minute but I already know what looks like. I may have a Dialajet still in my garage somewhere , interested ? |
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Title: Re: UFO Installation & Test Post by DragBikeMike on 05/04/20 at 19:18:54 Hey Ruttly, of course I'm interested. I can't guarantee I'll slap it right on but I promise to send it back in the same condition I receive it. If I have it in-hand I can look it over and plan the installation & test. You think you have the instructions too? Shoot me a PM with the specifics. Thanks for your generous offer. :) |
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