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General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> Weakest link in the "starter chain"?
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Message started by kamelryttarn on 03/02/20 at 07:22:51

Title: Weakest link in the "starter chain"?
Post by kamelryttarn on 03/02/20 at 07:22:51

I consider replacing the lead acid battery with a LiFePo4 one and skip the decompression system. Lets say for arguments sake that the piston has stopped on a compression cycle and that the starter tries to start the bike at the worst possible time in the compression cycle. What will happen? Since a fully charged LiFePo-battery can supply a good amount of current we assume that is not the weakest point. What about the gears? Do I risk destroying the starter gears? Or are the windings on the starter motor the most likely place of failure?

Title: Re: Weakest link in the "starter chain"?
Post by srinath on 03/02/20 at 07:46:12

617363313060766362040 wrote:

No, usual failure in that situation would be the engine case where the idler gear pivot pin is and its rather thin and would break out of the case.
Cool.
Srinath.

Title: Re: Weakest link in the "starter chain"?
Post by Gary_in_NJ on 03/02/20 at 08:42:03

I haven't used a decomp in 4 years. I've yet to find the supposed dead spot.

Title: Re: Weakest link in the "starter chain"?
Post by srinath on 03/02/20 at 10:18:20

7973777D767F7B722C2A2E1E0 wrote:

I haven't used a decomp in 4 years. I've yet to find the supposed dead spot.

I've often wondered what causes that pivot to break itself out, I have had 2 bikes with that same problem. I thought it was a backfire that spins the crank backward while the starter is spinning it forward.

Cool.
Srinath.

Title: Re: Weakest link in the "starter chain"?
Post by Gary_in_NJ on 03/02/20 at 10:52:26

To the OP....

Why do you need to disconnect the decomp? I removed it because there was no longer room for it under my modified tank. I really don't see any other reason to eliminate it. Are you installing a custom fuel tank?

Title: Re: Weakest link in the "starter chain"?
Post by Ruttly on 03/02/20 at 11:14:22

Gary is correct , I have never needed to use my manual decomp. Even if by chance it were to get stuck at TDC , with key off put it in first gear and pull the bike backwards till it stops and now you are just past TDC. Years and years of owning FSS , BSA , YAMAHA , HONDA , SUZUKI you tend to learn all the handy little tricks to get them started !

Title: Re: Weakest link in the "starter chain"?
Post by verslagen1 on 03/02/20 at 12:08:31

3233282F203529410 wrote:

[quote author=7973777D767F7B722C2A2E1E0 link=1583162571/0#2 date=1583167323]I haven't used a decomp in 4 years. I've yet to find the supposed dead spot.

Title: Re: Weakest link in the "starter chain
Post by verslagen1 on 03/02/20 at 12:11:21

0B2C2D2D3520590 wrote:

If you don't have the torque limiter, you are in danger of busting teeth or bosses.

Even if you do have the torque limiter, going forward is a better option.

You can tell when you've gone far enough by twisting the decomp lever and when the exhaust rocker moves and hits it, you've gone far enough.

Title: Re: Weakest link in the "starter chain
Post by srinath on 03/02/20 at 14:47:05

43504746595452505B04350 wrote:

If you don't have the torque limiter, you are in danger of busting teeth or bosses.

Lemme guess - these would be the 86's ? 4 speeds or just the 86's.
The same ones that had the collapsing airbox to carb hose cos it was smooth ? Not Gridded ?
Yea I had a couple of those, in fact I have only had 2 non 4 speed savages. One I got with broken front end 10-12 yrs ago, another 3 months ago.

Cool.
Srinath.

Title: Re: Weakest link in the "starter chain
Post by verslagen1 on 03/02/20 at 15:07:20

37362D2A25302C440 wrote:

[quote author=43504746595452505B04350 link=1583162571/0#7 date=1583179881]

If you don't have the torque limiter, you are in danger of busting teeth or bosses.

Title: Re: Weakest link in the "starter chain
Post by srinath on 03/02/20 at 15:22:16

544750514E4345474C13220 wrote:

All 4 speeds and maybe 5 speeds up to '95

I thought 95 was the return year for the savage and was 5 speed from then on.
86-88 4 speed, 95 on 5 speed. 89-94 - no savage ? Or was it just US that didn't get the 89-94's.
So in reality when did they go 5 speed in the world ?

Cool.
Srinath.

Title: Re: Weakest link in the "starter chain"?
Post by Ruttly on 03/02/20 at 16:37:20

I have read somewhere that 86 to 88 are 4 speeds , not sure how true it is. The torque limiter was introduced on 96 year model.

Title: Re: Weakest link in the "starter chain"?
Post by LANCER on 03/02/20 at 17:01:22

‘86-89 for US imports were 4 speeds, with ‘95-current 5 spd.
I’ve seen info posted here in the past indicating changes made in ‘90-94 models sold elsewhere in the world, but don’t remember the details now.

Title: Re: Weakest link in the "starter chain"?
Post by Armen on 03/02/20 at 18:18:14

Have a Shorai on mine. Have to say, sometimes it comes up on compression and stops. I have the stock decomp lever not attached to anything. I can reach over and hold it down til the piston makes it over TDC.
Mine is some kind of mongrel. Titled as a '96, def a 5 speed, but had the non-groovy starter gear set-up. I modified stuff and now have the sexier starter gears.

Title: Re: Weakest link in the "starter chain
Post by kamelryttarn on 03/02/20 at 23:03:43

Great info from everyone. Thank you all.

Is it possible from this picture to tell if I have the torque limiter or not? The bike supposedly is a -94 but it is a 5 speed engine and I can't say for certain if the engine is the original one or if it has been replaced. By bike seem to have lived a turbulent and hard life.

Title: Re: Weakest link in the "starter chain
Post by srinath on 03/03/20 at 00:42:08

5A48580A0B5B4D58593F0 wrote:

I've never seen that 3 row gear before. And I have never opened up that part of a 5 speed before. The 4 speeds didn't have that gear, but 94 ? manufacture date or titled as a 94 ? And is this a US bike ?
Cool.
Srinath.

Title: Re: Weakest link in the "starter chain"?
Post by kamelryttarn on 03/03/20 at 00:56:50

The bike is from Germany and was imported to Sweden in 2000. The frame has NP41B stamped to it.

The "DMV-records" has a note stating that the year of manufacturing specified to 1994 is a guess since there were no actual records so the frame itself can be from 1994 or 1995 or perhaps even earlier.

I emailed Suzuki in Japan and asked about when my bike was manufactured but they answered that they couldn't say but that the frame number indicated it's a 1994 model.

Title: Re: Weakest link in the "starter chain"?
Post by srinath on 03/03/20 at 01:03:29

Someone who knows a 95 starter side parts better would be better than me to answer your question. But that is not what a 86-87 set looks like.
Cool.
Srinath.

Title: Re: Weakest link in the "starter chain"?
Post by kamelryttarn on 03/03/20 at 01:10:12

This thread suggests that my engine is either -96 or newer OR that someone before me has added the torque limiter

http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1288911670

Title: Re: Weakest link in the "starter chain"?
Post by srinath on 03/03/20 at 01:27:22

I am learning a lot reading those threads.
Thanks man.
Cool.
Srinath.

Title: Re: Weakest link in the "starter chain
Post by verslagen1 on 03/03/20 at 07:16:31

That's a torque limiter gear.
http://suzukisavage.com/yabb2.2/Attachments/SAM_0217.png

Frame numbers aren't the same as engine numbers.
You can compare your engine number with the range given for year, although we don't have many in between years.
http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1240553196

Title: Re: Weakest link in the "starter chain"?
Post by srinath on 03/03/20 at 07:56:52

I had a question for you Vers.
Does the back fire and blow the non limiter style one situation happen more when you use the kill switch to shut off the engine vs using the key to turn it off ?
I have never come close to this problem that I know of and I never use the kill switch. Both the busted ones from bought busted, no idea if those guys did like I do or use the kill switch.
That's why I'm asking.
Cool.
Srinath.

Title: Re: Weakest link in the "starter chain"?
Post by batman on 03/03/20 at 07:57:03

Ruttly is correct the inti-kickback gear was introduced in the 96 models,(but if I owned a 96 I'd check ,they may not have installed them until mid year) . As owner of a 95 from new ,and never installing the newer gear ,I 've found there are ways to avoid damage . You can run the bike slightly rich, you can pull the choke out or rev the motor, before hitting the kill switch when shutting the bike off. I prefer the fist way .and haven't had a problem , running lean is what causes the kickback ,

Title: Re: Weakest link in the "starter chain"?
Post by srinath on 03/03/20 at 08:17:34

7073667F737C262A120 wrote:

Yea mine are always tuned to rich - nice benefit, thanks.
Cool.
Srinath.

Title: Re: Weakest link in the "starter chain"?
Post by batman on 03/03/20 at 22:06:00

The other benefit is the bike runs cooler, if you run too rich you can foul the plug (it can be cleaned and reused) , if you run to lean the bike will run hot and you could burn the valves , which would you prefer?

Title: Re: Weakest link in the "starter chain"?
Post by srinath on 03/04/20 at 07:07:39

I'm buying a 3 row idler from a 95 (thanks Stewmills), that looks exactly like the picture by vers.
Is the outer case cover of a 95 also needed ?
I have a good left case in my 86 - but I'd rather not drill alternate location hole, I currently don't have the precision equipment to do any better than a 1/2 a$$$ed job.

Thanks.
Srinath.

Title: Re: Weakest link in the "starter chain"?
Post by verslagen1 on 03/04/20 at 07:52:46

2A2B3037382D31590 wrote:

Yes you need a cover from a 95 or later engine.
Or have the boss cut a half inch deeper.

Title: Re: Weakest link in the "starter chain"?
Post by srinath on 03/04/20 at 08:12:18

2E3D2A2B34393F3D3669580 wrote:

[quote author=2A2B3037382D31590 link=1583162571/15#25 date=1583334459]I'm buying a 3 row idler from a 95 (thanks Stewmills), that looks exactly like the picture by vers.
Is the outer case cover of a 95 also needed ?
I have a good left case in my 86 - but I'd rather not drill alternate location hole, I currently don't have the precision equipment to do any better than a 1/2 a$$$ed job.

Thanks.
Srinath.

Yes you need a cover from a 95 or later engine.
Or have the boss cut a half inch deeper.[/quote]

You mean drill that hole in the 86's case deeper ? Not drill a new hole somewhere else ?
Cool.
Srinath.

Title: Re: Weakest link in the "starter chain
Post by verslagen1 on 03/04/20 at 08:18:45

4557404F5258424A210 wrote:

Yes you can make the case cover work with the larger gear. This case is from a 1986 savage.

I took out about 1/2 inch of material and drilled out the hole, slowly. I kept checking the fit and making sure the gear wouldn't bind and everything would turn freely.

http://i840.photobucket.com/albums/zz322/bug_dragon89/IMGP0488.jpg

http://i840.photobucket.com/albums/zz322/bug_dragon89/IMGP0489.jpg

Title: Re: Weakest link in the "starter chain"?
Post by srinath on 03/04/20 at 08:58:24

I'm unable to open these 2 pics while at work.
Is it a brand new hole or is it deepening an existing hole ? Or making it larger ?

Thanks.
Srinath.

Title: Re: Weakest link in the "starter chain"?
Post by verslagen1 on 03/04/20 at 09:47:20

it's the same hole deeper.

Title: Re: Weakest link in the "starter chain"?
Post by srinath on 03/04/20 at 10:18:06

I think I may have that skill at this time - Thanks much Vers.
Cool.
Srinath.

Title: Re: Weakest link in the "starter chain"?
Post by DragBikeMike on 03/06/20 at 11:35:39

Nice save on that cover Versy.

Can you give us a little more detail? For instance, did you set it up in a drill press or were you able to pull it off with a hand drill. I see the hole is exactly 10.00mm and there is a smaller hole at the bottom of the existing blind hole. Can you follow the smaller hole with say a 9.8mm drill or possibly a letter "W" drill and then finish up with a 10mm machine reamer?

Pretty cool that you were able to upgrade the old cover on the cheap. :)

Title: Re: Weakest link in the "starter chain"?
Post by verslagen1 on 03/06/20 at 11:52:54

Wasn't me, the shaft hole itself doesn't need to be deeper, only the spotface.

Title: Re: Weakest link in the "starter chain"?
Post by DragBikeMike on 03/06/20 at 13:46:02

So are you saying that you only have to shorten the boss by 1/2"? The depth of the 10mm hole remains unchanged?

If that's the case, gravy. ;)

Title: Re: Weakest link in the "starter chain"?
Post by kamelryttarn on 10/11/20 at 04:12:23

Today I took some current measurements on my engine which is still out of the frame. I wanted to see how much current the starter draws without the solenoid and this is this first oscilloscope reading

Title: Re: Weakest link in the "starter chain"?
Post by kamelryttarn on 10/11/20 at 04:14:08

I figured something was off since the current did not match the battery voltage and was constant at 20A. Turns out the I was bottoming out the scale. When I changed the range on the clamp probe I got what I believe to be correct numbers instead

Title: Re: Weakest link in the "starter chain"?
Post by kamelryttarn on 10/27/20 at 23:01:49

After some thinking and input from members here I realize that the current is probably even higher than ~130A. My clamp probe has a limit of 65A AC and should mean that the peak current it can accurately measure is around 130A. If I want to get a better reading I need to find a clamp probe that can handle larger currents and a better battery that will no sag so much when the engine is cranking.