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Message started by J cooley on 12/14/19 at 08:26:28

Title: Clutch replacement now overheating
Post by J cooley on 12/14/19 at 08:26:28

Hey all-
Just did the clutch and cable on my 2012 w 20k due to slippage.
After installation it seems to grab great, but at lights is overheating.
I did NOT remove the clutch basket as warned, but the clutch basket did move when putting the new plates on. I THINK its overheating because it is getting to a temp at after riding that I can feel it warm through my jeans, also the RPM begins to rise even though its quite cold (40 degrees out) After it warms up, the clutch also begins to slip. Its quite frustrating.

If the problem is that pin and washer coming out of place, am I going to be able to find them and place them back in the right place? I know someone spoke of a "rabbit hole" but i didn't plug them. Thanks for the help.

Title: Re: Clutch replacement now overheating
Post by verslagen1 on 12/14/19 at 09:10:22

1st thing to check is your oil pressure, if you've lost the pin, you're not driving your pump.

Title: Re: Clutch replacement now overheating
Post by J cooley on 12/14/19 at 09:53:08

How am I able to check my oil pressure?

Title: Re: Clutch replacement now overheating
Post by verslagen1 on 12/14/19 at 10:25:20

On the front of the engine there's a plug on the clutch side of the case.
remove that and replace it with a pressure gage.

Title: Re: Clutch replacement now overheating
Post by J cooley on 12/15/19 at 16:36:05

i will hopefully be able to get it in tomorrow and see if there is pressure or not. keep you posted

Title: Re: Clutch replacement now overheating
Post by srinath on 12/15/19 at 17:46:18

Rpm's rising after it warms up = lean. Opening up air screws (to let in fuel) or putting in a larger pilot jet is what we used to do.
You have an intake air leak ? Like a filter with a hole in it, a air vent that's left uncapped/open ?
You take the bike apart especially on the intake side recently ? look back and see if anything can take in air.
Also exhaust leaks can make it lean too, though less than intake side.
Cool.
Srinath.

Title: Re: Clutch replacement now overheating
Post by Armen on 12/15/19 at 20:16:33

Possible to lose the restrictor jet that lives in the crankcase and is held in by the side cover. That would kill the oil pressure to the top end.

Title: Re: Clutch replacement now overheating
Post by srinath on 12/16/19 at 00:44:14


6A59464E452B0 wrote:
Possible to lose the restrictor jet that lives in the crankcase and is held in by the side cover. That would kill the oil pressure to the top end.


If I recall, it would lower the pressure at the crank. Its a restrictor to flow to the top end to retain bottom end pressure. I'm trying to remember, its been 15+ yrs since my last savage motor teardown. This is a ball bearing bottom end and a plain bearing top end right. Ball bearing bottom ends are not pressure lubed, they are splash lubed. The cam lobes in this bike are lubed by a square puddle that takes and keeps a lot of oil, and a bunch of dirt and crap as well, in a lot of other bikes the cam lobed are just splash lubed. Even that system works well enough. I actually doubt any oil flow/pressure problem can cause the rising rpm. That is jetting and air flow. If it overheats from lack of oil, its already too late, but I am sure its not happening here.

Cool.
Srinath.

Title: Re: Clutch replacement now overheating
Post by J cooley on 12/17/19 at 10:04:18

Ok. I took it to a shop, (couldn't find a reader and wanted it done same day) Place is highly recommended in Austin from multiple sources. They said that it has pressure, and they took the cover off to assure that there is oil getting to my top end. he said i was probably just paranoid and the clutch seems to be installed correctly. So now I am left with the question of: Why is it i have new clutch plates, new disks, springs and also a clutch cable am I still getting slipping when I am at running temp? Its when Im a little hard on it (on the highway) and the slipping is consistent. I am using 10w40 motorcycle oil. What is the next thing i need to check?

Title: Re: Clutch replacement now overheating
Post by Armen on 12/17/19 at 11:22:54

Srinath,
On a 4 stroke roller bottom end, the crank is most certainly pressure lubed. Look at the oiling diagram in the manual. Oil comes in through the right side cover into the right end of the crank
The oil that flies off the crank splashes onto the cylinder walls, so less oil to the crank would mean less on the cylinder walls, which would make for hotter running.

Title: Re: Clutch replacement now overheating
Post by Gary_in_NJ on 12/17/19 at 11:25:57

Sometimes it's the simple things. Is it properly adjusted? Is it possible that the current adjustment allows for constant slippage. How much free play is at the lever?

Title: Re: Clutch replacement now overheating
Post by Dennisgb on 12/17/19 at 14:56:11


545E5A505B52565F010703330 wrote:
Sometimes it's the simple things. Is it properly adjusted? Is it possible that the current adjustment allows for constant slippage. How much free play is at the lever?


+1

Title: Re: Clutch replacement now overheating
Post by verslagen1 on 12/17/19 at 15:59:33

Check the lever position in regards to the marks on the case.
Pull up on the lever, there should be clearance.
The lower the better, but there is a limit...
if they are too low and it bottoms out before the cover is bolted down then the clutch will be permanently activated.

Title: Re: Clutch replacement now overheating
Post by DragBikeMike on 12/17/19 at 22:00:27

As Verslagen said, the lever on the clutch cover (on the engine) should be between the two marks on the engine case.  Look behind where the cable attaches to the lever, there should be two marks on the engine case.

When the clutch lever on the handlebars is released, that lever on the clutch cover needs to be situated between those two marks on the engine case, and there should also be slack in the system.  There should be slack in the lever on the handlebars, and you should be able to pull on the lever on the clutch cover and observe it move up a bit.  There must be free play in order for the clutch to fully engage.

If that lever on the clutch cover doesn't line up with the marks on the engine case, you either have the cable too tight such that its pulling up on the engine lever and partially disengaging the clutch, or the clutch pushrod is the wrong length.

If you go to any Suzuki parts website (patzilla, babbitts, etc.) and look at the fiche for the clutch assembly, you will note that piece 22 comes in three different lengths (44.5mm, 45.5mm, & 46.5mm).  If the lever on the clutch cover is too low in relation to the marks on the engine case, you need a shorter pushrod.  If the lever is too high in relation to the marks on the engine case you need a longer pushrod.

All that being said, what sort of clutch plates and springs did you install?  Did you install genuine Suzuki parts, or did you install some sort of aftermarket parts.  I can tell you that I tested EBC clutch springs and they are not up to the task.

http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1526991117

Title: Re: Clutch replacement now overheating
Post by ohiomoto on 12/18/19 at 06:20:36

And did you soak the plates in (or use) "slippery" oil before the "motorcycle" oil?

Title: Re: Clutch replacement now overheating
Post by J cooley on 12/18/19 at 10:15:47

There is play in the lever, and yes its between the two marks on the case. I soaked the plates in the same type of motorcycle oil that I used when I did the oil job.

As far as the clutch pushrod, is that something that should be changed out due to usage? It is the stock pushrod.

Im very curious why its only happening when Its at running temp and why its only under hard acceleration on the Freeway (example to pass)

If it was a clutch cable being out of adjustment wouldn't the symptom be a constant and not just after its been running? Along with the pushrod?

Title: Re: Clutch replacement now overheating
Post by verslagen1 on 12/18/19 at 11:53:26

As things heat up, if you do not have sufficient free play, you may loose it.
Try adding some more at the handle bar.
But if the throwout cam in the cover is already bottomed out, you're DOA.

Title: Re: Clutch replacement now overheating
Post by DragBikeMike on 12/18/19 at 23:25:43

There must be play in both levers, the lever on the handlebars, and the lever on the clutch cover.

The required pushrod length is determined by the lever alignment with the marks on the engine case.  Shorter pushrod results in lever being higher, longer pushrod results in lever being lower.  You select the pushrod that puts your clutch cover lever centered between the marks on the engine case.  If you are between the marks, your pushrod length is OK. 

What sort of plates and springs did you install?  Genuine Suzuki or some sort of aftermarket product?

Title: Re: Clutch replacement now overheating
Post by J cooley on 12/19/19 at 09:04:24

I installed:
Redline Clutch kit PN: 15-3359
Clutch Springs: PN: 15-1724
Suzuki Steel Clutch Plates PN: 614496

I took it for a nice ride yesterday to get a better understanding on what is going on. Heres all I can give.

rode fine on the highway for about 5-7 miles. No slipping or issues. After it was warmed up and had been sitting at a light i got up past 50 and started slipping under 80% throttle. There is plenty of slack now in the lever, it seems to have plenty of play in it.

Is the arm going into the casing supposed to be able to move forward and backward? It can move about an eighth of an inch out from the case.

It doesn't seem to be overheating either. I rode it hard and though it slips there doesn't seem to be any difference in the motorcycle. If i switched out the OEM clutch with an aftermarket, does that mean that I should possibly get a different pushrod installed? I would have thought it would have been compatible with the stock pushrod. If so, where do I purchase one? Im guessing I need a larger one. When I adjust the clutch cable it seems to want to naturally have the clutch arm a little higher in the clearance.

Anyone of you savages in Austin and want some free beer to look at this darn thing ;D

Title: Re: Clutch replacement now overheating
Post by srinath on 12/19/19 at 10:05:56


0D3E2129224C0 wrote:
Srinath,
On a 4 stroke roller bottom end, the crank is most certainly pressure lubed. Look at the oiling diagram in the manual. Oil comes in through the right side cover into the right end of the crank
The oil that flies off the crank splashes onto the cylinder walls, so less oil to the crank would mean less on the cylinder walls, which would make for hotter running.


I'll have to look at either the split motor or the oiling diagram in the manual again, but this isn't the same as the crank being pressure lubed. The plain bearings in a plain bearing crank has a pressure feed in every one of those. That is where it needs to retain film strength, and the oil pressure is what helps that happen. Roller bearings also get splash off lube.
Cool.
Srinath.

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