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Message started by raydawg on 12/01/19 at 09:00:44

Title: Good morning......
Post by raydawg on 12/01/19 at 09:00:44

This is why the INTERNET is changing they way politics is played.....

And will seriously cause more transparency, free press, and accessibility, to the average voter.  

The whoring media is livid, they know it threatens their ability to cash in on soap opera narratives, and fleecing the candidates/politicians.

Funny, what folks wanted the politicians to do, via term limits, campaign funding reforms, etc.....

Technology is going to provide, as more and more people have the capacity to receive such information over their phones, etc....

AMAZING........  :)

Enjoy this morsel, even if its not to your taste  ;D

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YZ46I3kMOr0

This is a good thing folks, if you are NOT a rabid party goose-stepper   ;D

Title: Re: Good morning......
Post by pg on 12/01/19 at 09:18:56


23302835302636510 wrote:
This is a good thing folks, if you are NOT a rabid party goose-stepper   ;D



[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A1IrRxoRkbQ&list=WL&index=27&t=0s[/media]

Best regards,

Title: Re: Good morning......
Post by Serowbot on 12/01/19 at 09:31:33

The internet is sticking it to the "whoring" media?,... and you post a clip that was shot by the mainstream media?...

Youz guyz should just admit it,...
...it's not the media, it's the facts you don't like.

Title: Re: Good morning......
Post by raydawg on 12/01/19 at 10:18:50

Poor baby....everything is a affront.....huh.

I saw some size 7 boots, down at the thrift mart yesterday....

You want I buy them for you as a gift?  :-*

You can miss the gist of my thread, I understand, you like CNN pablum, with MSNBC breast milk..... we all know.


Title: Re: Good morning......
Post by pg on 12/01/19 at 10:31:44


7B6D7A677F6A677C080 wrote:
The internet is sticking it to the "whoring" media?,... and you post a clip that was shot by the mainstream media?...

Youz guyz should just admit it,...
...it's not the media, it's the facts you don't like.




Kinda like AOC saying free stuff is now public goods, or the Newsweek article saying Trump was golfing on Thanksgiving when e
he was in A-Stan, or the Russian collusion.

Those facts....

Best regards,


Title: Re: Good morning......
Post by Eegore on 12/01/19 at 12:48:43

 Well the accuracy of internet information is up for debate, so much so its addressed multiple times in Congress.

 The amount of deliberately false news stories, ads and charities is higher than it has ever been before.  6 youth in Argentina put out ads and links to 860,000 users, that is Eight Hundred and Sixty Thousand ads to users in social media by a few kids.

 No other media can do that, and every single one was false.

 So in my opinion the improvement in transparency is equally damaged by the improvement in false media distribution.  

 The real issue though is that we as humans tend to only accept the information we want to be true, ignoring information we don't want to be true.  Truth being rather irrelevant in most cases.
 

Title: Re: Good morning......
Post by raydawg on 12/01/19 at 14:23:29


0D2D2F273A2D480 wrote:
 Well the accuracy of internet information is up for debate, so much so its addressed multiple times in Congress.

Sorta like asking the fox, to watch the hen house...eh.

 The amount of deliberately false news stories, ads and charities is higher than it has ever been before.  6 youth in Argentina put out ads and links to 860,000 users, that is Eight Hundred and Sixty Thousand ads to users in social media by a few kids.

Well we could have a god.....censor anything they don't like, or.....really have a free press, unfettered and available to everyone, pitfalls and all....  

 No other media can do that, and every single one was false.

not so sure about that.....????

 So in my opinion the improvement in transparency is equally damaged by the improvement in false media distribution.  

look, I believed them before, bought the most expensive beer, at the bar....the chicks did not flock to me....so...???

 The real issue though is that we as humans tend to only accept the information we want to be true, ignoring information we don't want to be true.  Truth being rather irrelevant in most cases.

That is true, and therefore, it cancels out each extreme, and those in the middle, which is SUPPOSE to be the strongest, and most dominate, segment of a democracy.....is the ballast......That IS -- real diversity  ;D  
 


But its so much more funner to call others names, ridicule them, call them a liar, idiot, and list their psychological cerebral, inner, intellectual, interior, internal, mental....defects.

Makes me feel, well superior  ;D ;D ;D ;D

Title: Re: Good morning......
Post by Eegore on 12/01/19 at 16:35:46


"Sorta like asking the fox, to watch the hen house...eh."

 I was thinking more along the lines of Congress, being incredibly slow to act on most things, is addressing this.  To me, this means the impact is high enough that it is even addressed by Congress, usually among the last to act.




"No other media can do that, and every single one was false."

"not so sure about that.....????"

 According to the source and investigative material, yes, every single ad created by these kids was false, inaccurate, not correct or otherwise intended to misinterpret accurate fact.  They were very specifically paid to be inaccurate.
 
 I can send you the source material and the statements from the people who created the ads themselves if you want to review them for accuracy.

 If you know of a media capable of allowing 6 kids to reach over 800,000 people worldwide directly I'd like to know what that is.  Certainly isn't radio, TV or print.

Title: Re: Good morning......
Post by raydawg on 12/01/19 at 18:06:05

No.... I believe you.

What I am saying is there is no way we can protect fools, and fee speech, unless we encroach upon it.....

That too has risk, and I would even venture to say, poses a greater threat, given the power invested in regulating it.

Title: Re: Good morning......
Post by Mavigogun on 12/01/19 at 21:51:59


796A726F6A7C6C0B0 wrote:
What I am saying is there is no way we can protect fools, and fee speech, unless we encroach upon it.....

That too has risk, and I would even venture to say, poses a greater threat, given the power invested in regulating it.


Obviously unfettered speech makes us susceptible to propaganda campaigns.   The foil to that is education, elevating critical thinking, and basis-of-doubt.   The problem is folks not being able to discern the quality of content.   The Koch brothers, the petrochemical industry fuel anthropogenic climate change denial narratives, convince a cross section of society to fight efforts to put out the fire.   By indulging in lazy bigotry, the deniers elevate the risk of unchecked speech, putting it in existentialist conflict.

Title: Re: Good morning......
Post by WebsterMark on 12/02/19 at 05:26:20


7A69716C697F6F080 wrote:
No.... I believe you.

What I am saying is there is no way we can protect fools, and fee speech, unless we encroach upon it.....

That too has risk, and I would even venture to say, poses a greater threat, given the power invested in regulating it.


I would point to the current state of affairs with regards to the news media as evidence of such. I see where high school student Nick Sandmann's suit against the Washington Post is proceeding on. The Post smeared him by  purposely leaving out pertinent facts and adding opinion as fact in an attempt portray the "news" different than the actual events of that day. In short, they lied. CNN, MSNBC etc..continued on with this lie after it became clear the original story as reported was false. I hope he sues them onto bankruptcy.

But this is an example of Ray's point. The power inherent with being the one to guard the "truth" is enormous. Look at what happened to the original Catholic Church. "Peter The Rock on which I will build my Church."
The leadrs of The Church managed to manipulate the masses for centuries when the power of their position overtook them. If a religious people cannot withstand the temptation of power, what hope do we have for others? There is none. It's a constant give and take. Martin Luther reversed course for a while, but it's a debatable point what the situation is today ith The Church.

 Trump has forced the dividing line back into the open. Each side "spins" the news towards their side of the line.

Is there anyone left to give control of the "truth" to? Any group who hasn't already put on a team jersey?

Title: Re: Good morning......
Post by Mavigogun on 12/02/19 at 06:06:38


477572636475625D71627B100 wrote:
Is there anyone left to give control of the "truth" to? Any group who hasn't already put on a team jersey?


As ever, the morally debased and ethically malformed can't imagine others not sharing his failings.

Title: Re: Good morning......
Post by Serowbot on 12/02/19 at 07:40:19

We currently have half of Congress following an internet conspiracy theory that suits their agenda,.. over evidence that their intelligence experts and our allied experts all agree on....
They know the facts,... they just choose to ignore them, because the false narrative suits them better.

It's very 1984...



Title: Re: Good morning......
Post by Eegore on 12/02/19 at 08:57:38


"Is there anyone left to give control of the "truth" to? Any group who hasn't already put on a team jersey? "

 Yes.

 NPR has a lot of information available to the public from groups, people, organizations that receive zero funding from political sources, and have no political affiliation.  

 Many local organizations provide information to the public about local policy that have no funding, or political affiliation.  Your county courthouse most likely is not going to alter official documentation based on who the President is.

 The CDC as far as I can tell, does not manipulate data to fit political affiliation, the death counts are real, the disease counts are real.  

 I think it depends on where someone tries to gather information.  Mainstream news is a waste of time, Wikipedia is a waste of time, Social Media, YouTube, all waste of time.  Those are however where most people look for "facts".  

Title: Re: Good morning......
Post by Mavigogun on 12/02/19 at 09:15:13


2404060E1304610 wrote:
Mainstream news is a waste of time, Wikipedia is a waste of time, Social Media, YouTube, all waste of time. 


These sources are only as valuable as the critical faculties of the viewer.   Far from a "waste of time", Wikipedia is a valuable tool- when grasped by a discerning intellect; unlike many/most sources, a record of contesting views is appended to each article.   As with all consideration, if you surrender your agency to another, you get what pleases them.   Be a participant- not just a consumer -and you'll be better positioned to find value; grossly discounting mediums of delivery is self-hobbling.

Title: Re: Good morning......
Post by srinath on 12/02/19 at 09:19:41


022220283522470 wrote:
"Is there anyone left to give control of the "truth" to? Any group who hasn't already put on a team jersey? "

 Yes.

 NPR has a lot of information available to the public from groups, people, organizations that receive zero funding from political sources, and have no political affiliation.  

 


As a looooooong time listener I have this to say about NPR. They may not have a political bias, however NPR is heavily pro immigrant and heavily pro gun control. In effect I don't think of them as neutral. Some of their hosts are explicitly liberal that I know of having written books with that point of view.
Worse yet, they say "Hunta" for the word Junta when it refers to military/army etc in Myanmar or parts of south east asia. The J in that context is said as J - and Junta means "people" in hindi/Urdu and related languages. That right there tells me they think all brown people are Mexican, and since that cluelessness goes along with all the rest of their reporting, I'm sure they're pro immigrant, when the immigrants are Mexican or south American. That IMHO just does not work for me. Having said that, I don't think there is a news organization I'd trust to be the "gatekeeper" of news. Worse yet, many big tech firms including Google, amazon, tesla, facebook etc all heavily contribute to NPR. How they affect its coverage etc etc - I cant separate that from listening to them. However one thing I can say - after the chicken processing plant raid and deporting of many illegal workers the place held a job fair, and 15,000 people turned up apparently. I listened to that coverage almost hour by hour because I was working on my SV in those days and radio is on when I am in the garage always. NPR completely diminished the numbers that turned up and all their prior and current grievances and feed back etc etc, they kept parroting the line "immigrants do this job that americans don't want to do" when so many of those that came to the job fair said, they never got a call after they applied there earlier. NPR may not report outright "fake" news, but they tend to hide what doesn't fit their pro immigrant and gun control stance.

Cool.
Srinath.

Title: Re: Good morning......
Post by Serowbot on 12/02/19 at 09:55:18

In pre-internet times we had trusted sources,...
Edward R Murrow, Walter Cronkite,... are legendary.
They worked for CBS...
New York Times, Washington Post...
NBC, ABC, CBS... NPR, BBC.,.. all prided themselves on journalistic integrity.

Today, they are all considered Left wing.
I don't think they've changed...
The audience changed.
Half of America calls legitimate news, "fake news"...

Half of America believes Putin over US and allied sources.
Trump says, don't believe your own eyes and ears, believe me.  ...and half of America does...

Title: Re: Good morning......
Post by srinath on 12/02/19 at 10:18:03


5E485F425A4F42592D0 wrote:
In pre-internet times we had trusted sources,...
Edward R Murrow, Walter Cronkite,... are legendary.
They worked for CBS...
New York Times, Washington Post...
NBC, ABC, CBS... NPR, BBC.,.. all prided themselves on journalistic integrity.

Today, they are all considered Left wing.
I don't think they've changed...
The audience changed.
Half of America calls legitimate news, "fake news"...

Half of America believes Putin over US and allied sources.
Trump says, don't believe your own eyes and ears, believe me.  ...and half of America does...



1/2 of America believes that ? Sorry, its likely 2%. I've heard 3% believe the earth is Flat. So that should tell you. Not every trump voter believes him. They just thought he was the better alternative in 2016.

A lot of Indians voted for Trump because Hillary put a Pakisthani as her flag bearer. Indians outnumber pakisthanis by 100 to 1. Anytime that guy went on the air, a few 1000 decided to vote against Hillary. Being a woman = big hurdle to overcome with Indian men, putting a pakisthani = insurmountable hurdle with Indian women too. The only thing Indian women and men agree on is that Pakisthan = bad. Even Indian Muslims don't like pakisthan. To guarantee getting re-elected in India the current PM literally has started a war with pakisthan. Only cos pakisthan is weak and had internal problems they didn't retaliate.

Cool.
Srinath.

Title: Re: Good morning......
Post by T And T Garage on 12/02/19 at 12:09:24


5F5E45424D58442C0 wrote:
[quote author=5E485F425A4F42592D0 link=1575219644/15#16 date=1575309318]In pre-internet times we had trusted sources,...
Edward R Murrow, Walter Cronkite,... are legendary.
They worked for CBS...
New York Times, Washington Post...
NBC, ABC, CBS... NPR, BBC.,.. all prided themselves on journalistic integrity.

Today, they are all considered Left wing.
I don't think they've changed...
The audience changed.
Half of America calls legitimate news, "fake news"...

Half of America believes Putin over US and allied sources.
Trump says, don't believe your own eyes and ears, believe me.  ...and half of America does...



1/2 of America believes that ? Sorry, its likely 2%. I've heard 3% believe the earth is Flat. So that should tell you. Not every trump voter believes him. They just thought he was the better alternative in 2016.

Well, to clarify, even just 3% of "voting age citizens" comes out to be about about 6 million.....  trump lost the popular vote by far less, and won the electoral by just 1% of that same 6 million.

Perspective.....

A lot of Indians voted for Trump because Hillary put a Pakisthani as her flag bearer. Indians outnumber pakisthanis by 100 to 1. Anytime that guy went on the air, a few 1000 decided to vote against Hillary. Being a woman = big hurdle to overcome with Indian men, putting a pakisthani = insurmountable hurdle with Indian women too. The only thing Indian women and men agree on is that Pakisthan = bad. Even Indian Muslims don't like pakisthan. To guarantee getting re-elected in India the current PM literally has started a war with pakisthan. Only cos pakisthan is weak and had internal problems they didn't retaliate.

Cool.
Srinath.[/quote]

Title: Re: Good morning......
Post by srinath on 12/02/19 at 12:59:11


332D22232E332835470 wrote:
[quote author=5F5E45424D58442C0 link=1575219644/15#17 date=1575310683][quote author=5E485F425A4F42592D0 link=1575219644/15#16 date=1575309318]In pre-internet times we had trusted sources,...
Edward R Murrow, Walter Cronkite,... are legendary.
They worked for CBS...
New York Times, Washington Post...
NBC, ABC, CBS... NPR, BBC.,.. all prided themselves on journalistic integrity.

Today, they are all considered Left wing.
I don't think they've changed...
The audience changed.
Half of America calls legitimate news, "fake news"...

Half of America believes Putin over US and allied sources.
Trump says, don't believe your own eyes and ears, believe me.  ...and half of America does...



1/2 of America believes that ? Sorry, its likely 2%. I've heard 3% believe the earth is Flat. So that should tell you. Not every trump voter believes him. They just thought he was the better alternative in 2016.

Well, to clarify, even just 3% of "voting age citizens" comes out to be about about 6 million.....  trump lost the popular vote by far less, and won the electoral by just 1% of that same 6 million.

Perspective.....

A lot of Indians voted for Trump because Hillary put a Pakisthani as her flag bearer. Indians outnumber pakisthanis by 100 to 1. Anytime that guy went on the air, a few 1000 decided to vote against Hillary. Being a woman = big hurdle to overcome with Indian men, putting a pakisthani = insurmountable hurdle with Indian women too. The only thing Indian women and men agree on is that Pakisthan = bad. Even Indian Muslims don't like pakisthan. To guarantee getting re-elected in India the current PM literally has started a war with pakisthan. Only cos pakisthan is weak and had internal problems they didn't retaliate.

Cool.
Srinath.[/quote]
[/quote]


That's convenient. You're therefore assuming none of them are in NY or CA or even TX, anywhere that was one side over the other in a high margin, as in, allow me to place these 3% where it will make the most impact rather than at random.
Plenty of flat earthers in CA and NY and NJ too.
Doesn't matter in the large scheme of things though. I'm sure no Pakisthanis will be exhibited this election cycle, instead we I be spoken to in Spanish and when I say I cant speak Spanish, they'd say why don't you, its good to be bilingual. And the pity is, Trump would just speak jibberish and claim its Spanish.
Cool.
Srinath.

Title: Re: Good morning......
Post by T And T Garage on 12/02/19 at 13:13:26


74756E6966736F070 wrote:
[quote author=332D22232E332835470 link=1575219644/15#18 date=1575317364][quote author=5F5E45424D58442C0 link=1575219644/15#17 date=1575310683][quote author=5E485F425A4F42592D0 link=1575219644/15#16 date=1575309318]In pre-internet times we had trusted sources,...
Edward R Murrow, Walter Cronkite,... are legendary.
They worked for CBS...
New York Times, Washington Post...
NBC, ABC, CBS... NPR, BBC.,.. all prided themselves on journalistic integrity.

Today, they are all considered Left wing.
I don't think they've changed...
The audience changed.
Half of America calls legitimate news, "fake news"...

Half of America believes Putin over US and allied sources.
Trump says, don't believe your own eyes and ears, believe me.  ...and half of America does...



1/2 of America believes that ? Sorry, its likely 2%. I've heard 3% believe the earth is Flat. So that should tell you. Not every trump voter believes him. They just thought he was the better alternative in 2016.

Well, to clarify, even just 3% of "voting age citizens" comes out to be about about 6 million.....  trump lost the popular vote by far less, and won the electoral by just 1% of that same 6 million.

Perspective.....

A lot of Indians voted for Trump because Hillary put a Pakisthani as her flag bearer. Indians outnumber pakisthanis by 100 to 1. Anytime that guy went on the air, a few 1000 decided to vote against Hillary. Being a woman = big hurdle to overcome with Indian men, putting a pakisthani = insurmountable hurdle with Indian women too. The only thing Indian women and men agree on is that Pakisthan = bad. Even Indian Muslims don't like pakisthan. To guarantee getting re-elected in India the current PM literally has started a war with pakisthan. Only cos pakisthan is weak and had internal problems they didn't retaliate.

Cool.
Srinath.[/quote]
[/quote]


That's convenient. You're therefore assuming none of them are in NY or CA or even TX, anywhere that was one side over the other in a high margin, as in, allow me to place these 3% where it will make the most impact rather than at random.

Not at ll, I'm simply posting and comparing the number of people that believe that the Earth is flat...

Plenty of flat earthers in CA and NY and NJ too.

I don't disagree.

Doesn't matter in the large scheme of things though. I'm sure no Pakisthanis will be exhibited this election cycle, instead we I be spoken to in Spanish and when I say I cant speak Spanish, they'd say why don't you, its good to be bilingual. And the pity is, Trump would just speak jibberish and claim its Spanish.

Cool.
Srinath.[/quote]


That's sadly true.  The Pakistani, Indian nor any Subcontinent expats are in the view of any of the candidates - at least from what I've seen so far.  And you're not the first person I've heard that from either...



Title: Re: Good morning......
Post by srinath on 12/02/19 at 13:31:45

On one other forum someone saw my name and guessed my nationality as - Sri Lankan. Which makes no sense from a statistical point of view. Indians outnumber Sri Lankans by 100 to 1 anywhere except the southern 1/2 of Sri Lanka. Northern 1/2 of Sri Lanka and parts of Toronto Canada (Jane and Finch - back in the late 90s) had a lot of Tamil speakers (my mother tongue) who pretty much Identify themselves as Indian origin if not outright Indian. Knowing your statistics allows you to piss off a lot fewer people and IMHO vital for a politician.
Further, calling a Pakisthani an Indian will elicit a lot smaller negative reaction because they know they're out numbered 100 to 1 atleast statistically it makes sense to them, I'd almost bet Bangladeshi's out number pakisthanis in US. And B'Deshi's are quite used to being called Indian, and they were part of India before the british split that state into East Bengal and west Bengal.

Cool.
Srinath.

Title: Re: Good morning......
Post by WebsterMark on 12/02/19 at 15:37:43


4254435E46535E45310 wrote:
We currently have half of Congress following an internet conspiracy theory that suits their agenda,.. over evidence that their intelligence experts and our allied experts all agree on....
They know the facts,... they just choose to ignore them, because the false narrative suits them better.

It's very 1984


Yea, I know what you mean. After years and millions spent on Mueller's investigation, half still believe in a conspiracy theory. Hard to believe, ain't it?

Title: Re: Good morning......
Post by T And T Garage on 12/02/19 at 15:44:54


675552434455427D51425B300 wrote:
[quote author=4254435E46535E45310 link=1575219644/0#12 date=1575301219]We currently have half of Congress following an internet conspiracy theory that suits their agenda,.. over evidence that their intelligence experts and our allied experts all agree on....
They know the facts,... they just choose to ignore them, because the false narrative suits them better.

It's very 1984


Yea, I know what you mean. After years and millions spent on Mueller's investigation, half still believe in a conspiracy theory. Hard to believe, ain't it?
[/quote]



LOL - yeah, almost as bad as Hillary's emails or "BENGHAZI!!"....

Title: Re: Good morning......
Post by WebsterMark on 12/02/19 at 15:49:35


6472657860757863170 wrote:
In pre-internet times we had trusted sources,...
Edward R Murrow, Walter Cronkite,... are legendary.
They worked for CBS...
New York Times, Washington Post...
NBC, ABC, CBS... NPR, BBC.,.. all prided themselves on journalistic integrity.

Today, they are all considered Left wing.
I don't think they've changed...
The audience changed.
Half of America calls legitimate news, "fake news"...

Half of America believes Putin over US and allied sources.
Trump says, don't believe your own eyes and ears, believe me.  ...and half of America does...


Did it occur to you that their "journalistic integrity" was a figment of your imagination?

Title: Re: Good morning......
Post by raydawg on 12/02/19 at 16:43:58

I needn't say a thing, when the obvious speaks so loudly  ;D ;D ;D ;D

And why I STILL believe the INTERNET is a good thing.....

It will eventually weed out the scams much like how folks have learned to navigate emails, and shady links....

And render the organized media to a point where they will have to incorporate integrity, if they expect to be taken serious, and grow their viewership.... or they can just fade away, like they are now....

INDEED they are the same, as they were before, its the folk who are the wiser.   ;D ;D ;D ;D

Title: Re: Good morning......
Post by Mavigogun on 12/02/19 at 18:57:33


6C5E59484F5E49765A49503B0 wrote:
Did it occur to you that their "journalistic integrity" was a figment of your imagination?


As ever, Mark disbelieves in character he is unable to manifest himself.

Title: Re: Good morning......
Post by WebsterMark on 12/03/19 at 04:55:37


4D535C5D504D564B390 wrote:
[quote author=675552434455427D51425B300 link=1575219644/15#22 date=1575329863][quote author=4254435E46535E45310 link=1575219644/0#12 date=1575301219]We currently have half of Congress following an internet conspiracy theory that suits their agenda,.. over evidence that their intelligence experts and our allied experts all agree on....
They know the facts,... they just choose to ignore them, because the false narrative suits them better.

It's very 1984


Yea, I know what you mean. After years and millions spent on Mueller's investigation, half still believe in a conspiracy theory. Hard to believe, ain't it?
[/quote]


LOL - yeah, almost as bad as Hillary's emails or "BENGHAZI!!"....[/quote]

It is interesting how some events are investigated and dismissed as having been throughly debunked while others are investigated but never die.

Title: Re: Good morning......
Post by Mavigogun on 12/03/19 at 05:36:35


5F6D6A7B7C6D7A45697A63080 wrote:
It is interesting how some events are investigated and dismissed as having been throughly debunked while others are investigated but never die.


Of clear and present concern is residents of a Trumplandia's inability to discern the difference.


Title: Re: Good morning......
Post by T And T Garage on 12/03/19 at 05:51:26


4A787F6E69786F507C6F761D0 wrote:
LOL - yeah, almost as bad as Hillary's emails or "BENGHAZI!!"....


It is interesting how some events are investigated and dismissed as having been throughly debunked while others are investigated but never die.
[/quote]


Yes, that was true in the case of Hillary - but in the case of trump - there's so much more to find out...  this is only the beginning!

Title: Re: Good morning......
Post by srinath on 12/03/19 at 07:18:11

Neither of the 2 in 16 were for the working man.
No one in the 20 field is any better (though I must admit, I am not looking at any of them in too much detail).

Everyone wants to rob us blind. it just remains to be seen who they will give that loot to.

Like this old joke in India, where a barber has rates for a haircut. Regular 5, deluxe 20.
Customer asks him, what's the difference.
Regular = if we cut off your eat, this stray mutt would eat it.
Customer says, oh, deluxe = you are careful and don't cut off my ear.
He says no, nothing like that, but this purebred german sheppard will eat your ear.

Take your pick.

A slick politician will steal a million and spend a billion covering it up.
No one gets to the top of this pile without being a slick politician.

Cool.
Srinath.

Title: Re: Good morning......
Post by T And T Garage on 12/03/19 at 08:55:13


54554E4946534F270 wrote:
Neither of the 2 in 16 were for the working man.

I somewhat agree... only a little.  By far, trump's puppeteers just put things in front of him to sign and that's all he's done.  At the very least, Hillary would have helped craft bills and not been an embarrassment on the world stage.  But that's all water over the dam now.

No one in the 20 field is any better (though I must admit, I am not looking at any of them in too much detail).

I disagree - Bernie is by far the best candidate in 20.  He's the only one in the entire field that has never - ever - wavered in his beliefs.  He's been fighting for the middle class and poor his entire political career.

Everyone wants to rob us blind. it just remains to be seen who they will give that loot to.

I'll pay my fair share of taxes and feel a whole lot better about it if I can see some real results.  Medicare for all, student loan reforms, free public colleges, a real effort to combat homelessness, etc.  Far better than a tax cut for the 1%, increasing military spending (on everything but soldier pay), etc.

Like this old joke in India, where a barber has rates for a haircut. Regular 5, deluxe 20.
Customer asks him, what's the difference.
Regular = if we cut off your eat, this stray mutt would eat it.
Customer says, oh, deluxe = you are careful and don't cut off my ear.
He says no, nothing like that, but this purebred german sheppard will eat your ear.

Take your pick.

A slick politician will steal a million and spend a billion covering it up.
No one gets to the top of this pile without being a slick politician.

Check out Bernie and how he wants to get money out of politics.... (that's one of the reasons the establishment on both sides hates him)

Cool.
Srinath.


Title: Re: Good morning......
Post by srinath on 12/03/19 at 09:46:17


716F60616C716A77050 wrote:
[quote author=54554E4946534F270 link=1575219644/30#30 date=1575386291]Neither of the 2 in 16 were for the working man.

I somewhat agree... only a little.  By far, trump's puppeteers just put things in front of him to sign and that's all he's done.  At the very least, Hillary would have helped craft bills and not been an embarrassment on the world stage.  But that's all water over the dam now.

No one in the 20 field is any better (though I must admit, I am not looking at any of them in too much detail).

I disagree - Bernie is by far the best candidate in 20.  He's the only one in the entire field that has never - ever - wavered in his beliefs.  He's been fighting for the middle class and poor his entire political career.

Everyone wants to rob us blind. it just remains to be seen who they will give that loot to.

I'll pay my fair share of taxes and feel a whole lot better about it if I can see some real results.  Medicare for all, student loan reforms, free public colleges, a real effort to combat homelessness, etc.  Far better than a tax cut for the 1%, increasing military spending (on everything but soldier pay), etc.

Like this old joke in India, where a barber has rates for a haircut. Regular 5, deluxe 20.
Customer asks him, what's the difference.
Regular = if we cut off your eat, this stray mutt would eat it.
Customer says, oh, deluxe = you are careful and don't cut off my ear.
He says no, nothing like that, but this purebred german sheppard will eat your ear.

Take your pick.

A slick politician will steal a million and spend a billion covering it up.
No one gets to the top of this pile without being a slick politician.

Check out Bernie and how he wants to get money out of politics.... (that's one of the reasons the establishment on both sides hates him)

Cool.
Srinath.

[/quote]


While I like some of those ideas, there is 2 things I have to say.
The 1% doesn't have enough $$$ to cover all the Bernie promises. The 90% will get bitten, and most of them will pay more than they receive.
Then, open borders - you fundamentally can not have rich social benefits and open borders without sliding fast into bankruptcy. And that's not even counting the ones that will get attracted due to the free benefits.
Bernie's ideas are likely to be very very $$$. Much like the free $$$ for everyone from the other guy. Still a Bernie on the ticket would be better than any one else. Maybe Tulsi as well. We'll have to see who makes it out of the gate, I suspect the big $$$ will kill these 2 soon.

Cool.
Srinath.

Title: Re: Good morning......
Post by T And T Garage on 12/03/19 at 10:00:07


6F6E75727D68741C0 wrote:
While I like some of those ideas, there is 2 things I have to say.
The 1% doesn't have enough $$$ to cover all the Bernie promises.

That's not his plan.  It would not be all on the shoulders of the 1%.  There's corporations, estate taxes, cutting some military spending and yes, tax increases.  But people like me (and maybe you) spend thousands a year on our health insurance.  When it's all said and done, it's not really that far of a stretch.

The 90% will get bitten, and most of them will pay more than they receive.
Then, open borders - you fundamentally can not have rich social benefits and open borders without sliding fast into bankruptcy. And that's not even counting the ones that will get attracted due to the free benefits.

"Open borders"?  Seriously?  The right-wing talking point?  You seem too intelligent to fall for that one.

Bernie doesn't want "open borders".
http://feelthebern.org/bernie-sanders-on-immigration/

But the right-wingers will tell you otherwise.  Sad that so many fall for it.

Bernie's ideas are likely to be very very $$$. Much like the free $$$ for everyone from the other guy. Still a Bernie on the ticket would be better than any one else. Maybe Tulsi as well. We'll have to see who makes it out of the gate, I suspect the big $$$ will kill these 2 soon.

I don't think so.  In sheer number of individual donations, Bernie leads the pack with almost 750,000.  That says something.

Cool.
Srinath.


Title: Re: Good morning......
Post by srinath on 12/03/19 at 10:35:19

11 million, must be in his home state of VT. When's he planning to count people outside ? Probably after he's president.
Seriously they can make up any numbers to fit any theory.
The immigration reform is another BS that both sides want, and IMHO, the only reform I want to see, entire system needs to be closed off and all illegals be deported. I also don't want any further legal immigration.
That's not a right wing or a left wing anything. They all seem to be blind to the laws of supply and demand with both sides parroting that they want immigration in high tech. Try educating the ones that are already here and not pushing "liberal arts" and charging people ridiculous college tuitions. Which is another system where the supply chain is broken. Get an education here that is 100K or more only to be told its worthless and they want high tech from India or China where you can get an education that's very very cheap - because its not completely busted.
The second simple reason is, we need to have a working system with a shrinking population. Increasing the population in any part of the world that needs to heat their house is utterly black (opposite of green) for the environment. The entire employment based immigration system is completely rife with abuse and massive fraud, discrimination and it turns everyone into a slave. If 1/2 your cohorts are slaves, all of us are.
I am too smart to fall for any of these lies. There is plenty on both sides. The fact is, in the US we need to have a system that functions with a shrinking population. Not an ever increasing one. We can in some cases add 30 people in India for 1 in the US in terms of co2. I cant believe how every politician contradicts themselves issue to issue. You want less co2 - don't push people to veganism, push them into Mexico.

No, the supply chain of every commodity from Ass to Zebra is broken. No one is getting what they are paying for, and those that are working are getting shafted. Both sides are clueless to that fact.

The "medical reform" I want to see - prices on the wall at every doctor/hospital and all other applicable locations. They can do it at a restaurant, why cant they do it at the doctor.

The only way bringing in workers on some visa or another will ever work is if we tax them at full Bernie while cutting them off from benefits and not allowing any further immigration process. They come here on a visa, and when visa runs out, they are done. when they leave, get their ssn put in an inactive status. If they get another visa issue another SSN with no provable continuity to the previous SSN (as in law enforcement can see it in case there were outstanding crimes or priors, but they cant accumulate benefits like SSI or medicare).

Bernie talks a good game, but the numbers do not add up. Its a 0 sum game. You can say end the wars. Great, then you have the soldiers who are now out of a paycheck, the companies making war equipment out of orders, etc etc if that is one way to save $$$, those people need to find work, again - illegals and legal immigrants have to make way for them. Bernie and a few others have said end the wars, but never anything about what those people will do when they return.

Cool.
Srinath.

Title: Re: Good morning......
Post by srinath on 12/03/19 at 11:11:35

Immigration

Bernie Sanders has said that we are a “nation of immigrants. That is, in fact, the strength of America.” Bernie believes that America’s immigration system is “profoundly broken,” and he supports immigration reform that will address the legal status of the roughly 11 million undocumented people in our country.

Bernie has released a comprehensive plan A Welcoming and Safe America for All that supports visa reform, securing the border, and protecting both guest workers and undocumented workers from labor exploitation. Bernie believes that the U.S. should hire “hundreds of new judges” to expedite the processing of asylum claims by immigrants fleeing persecution or violence. Bernie has spoken out strongly against President Trump’s “Muslim ban,” saying that the ban “has always been a racist and anti-Islamic attempt to ban Muslims from entering this country.” Bernie has called upon Trump to rescind the ban, and has cosponsored seven bills in the Senate to overturn the ban.

The Need for Immigration Reform: America’s immigration system is “profoundly broken” and must be fixed.

Path to Citizenship: We ought to provide a path to legal residency or citizenship for most undocumented immigrants in the country today.

DREAM Act: Bernie supports the path toward permanent residency for young undocumented immigrants.

Visa Reform: Bernie reject the exploitation of workers and the use of visas for cheap, foreign labor. We must increase opportunities for qualified individuals to take steps towards permanent residency.

Border Security: We can and must secure borders without building a fence
Economic Exploitation: We can have a fair economy that accomodates undocumented immigrants and American workers without discrimination and manipulation of wages

OK that's a bit different than in 16.
The pink highlighted part is the only one I would agree with.

11 million - vastly under counted. Likely 40 million atleast.
Protecting undocumented and legal, I guess citizens get the shaft like they do now.
100's of new judges.... yeaaaayyyy more $$$ going out - aka my $ to do the opposite of what I want. Sort of ripping my arm of and slapping me with it.
Profoundly broken immigration system needs to be shut down. No immigrants or non immigrants or anything. Plenty of people here with "liberal arts" degrees and debt. Get them to do the crap immigrants are doing. That way they can pay their college loans too.
Path to citizenship. No, lesser co2 by pathing them clean back to mexico (or wherever they came from). We're not full, we're frozen. Since you want to not freeze, we cant afford the co2. Refer to Bernie's climate change plan for further details.
Dream act - No nuts, dream for them nightmare for all taxpaying workers. Lowers wages, raises costs of living and taxes. Its called supply and demand.
Visa reform. Yes, prevent all the exploitation by letting them all self deport and protect American workers.
Border security. Yes no fence, 100% electronic and bio metric based. No citizenship, no nothing, no employment, no benefits, self deport.
Economic exploitation. This is impossible to stop with the numbers of visa and illegal workers.
I love this "undocumented" immigrants term. I think bank robbers are calling themselves "undocumented tellers" and rapists are calling themselves "undocumented boyfriends" nowadays.

Cool.
Srinath.

Title: Re: Good morning......
Post by T And T Garage on 12/03/19 at 11:52:08


4A4B5057584D51390 wrote:
11 million, must be in his home state of VT. When's he planning to count people outside ? Probably after he's president.
Seriously they can make up any numbers to fit any theory.
The immigration reform is another BS that both sides want, and IMHO, the only reform I want to see, entire system needs to be closed off and all illegals be deported. I also don't want any further legal immigration.

LOL, seriously?  Why?  

That's not a right wing or a left wing anything. They all seem to be blind to the laws of supply and demand with both sides parroting that they want immigration in high tech. Try educating the ones that are already here and not pushing "liberal arts" and charging people ridiculous college tuitions. Which is another system where the supply chain is broken. Get an education here that is 100K or more only to be told its worthless and they want high tech from India or China where you can get an education that's very very cheap - because its not completely busted.

Another Bernie platform - free public college.

The second simple reason is, we need to have a working system with a shrinking population. Increasing the population in any part of the world that needs to heat their house is utterly black (opposite of green) for the environment. The entire employment based immigration system is completely rife with abuse and massive fraud, discrimination and it turns everyone into a slave. If 1/2 your cohorts are slaves, all of us are.
I am too smart to fall for any of these lies. There is plenty on both sides. The fact is, in the US we need to have a system that functions with a shrinking population. Not an ever increasing one. We can in some cases add 30 people in India for 1 in the US in terms of co2. I cant believe how every politician contradicts themselves issue to issue. You want less co2 - don't push people to veganism, push them into Mexico.

OK, whatever... not sure I can (or would want to) follow your logic.  But to each their own.

No, the supply chain of every commodity from Ass to Zebra is broken. No one is getting what they are paying for, and those that are working are getting shafted. Both sides are clueless to that fact.

Not so.  Again, one of the main problems in this country is unlimited bribery of our government.  No, it's not the only one, but certainly one of the biggest.  How can these corporations be making record profits while our roads and bridges crumble?  How can we have homeless yet protect the unlimited bribery of our Congress?  How can so many fall into bankruptcy due to medical bills yet Amazon pays close to zero in taxes?

The "medical reform" I want to see - prices on the wall at every doctor/hospital and all other applicable locations. They can do it at a restaurant, why cant they do it at the doctor.

Not a bad idea.  It'll never happen though because the lobbyists for the medical groups won't allow it.  They funnel millions to candidates who will do their bidding (are you seeing a trend here?)

The only way bringing in workers on some visa or another will ever work is if we tax them at full Bernie while cutting them off from benefits and not allowing any further immigration process.

LOL - that's actually funny.  Zero incentive works how again?  Why did you immigrate here?

They come here on a visa, and when visa runs out, they are done. when they leave, get their ssn put in an inactive status. If they get another visa issue another SSN with no provable continuity to the previous SSN (as in law enforcement can see it in case there were outstanding crimes or priors, but they cant accumulate benefits like SSI or medicare).

Bernie talks a good game, but the numbers do not add up. Its a 0 sum game. You can say end the wars. Great, then you have the soldiers who are now out of a paycheck, the companies making war equipment out of orders, etc etc if that is one way to save $$$, those people need to find work, again - illegals and legal immigrants have to make way for them. Bernie and a few others have said end the wars, but never anything about what those people will do when they return.

Your view, IMHO, is way too simplistic.  You seem to forget that when we had marginal tax rates in the 80% range, our country was building great things and leading the world in virtually every single sector.  Corporations didn't hoard cash, they invested it in its workers and in its own infrastructure.  Government was held in check by itself and actually fought against corporate corruption.

It's about time for this country to get its legs back underneath it and lead the world again.  Things like alternative energy production (solar, wind, even fusion), battery technology, computing technology, manufacturing (3D printing/exotic materials, etc), plant based food production might all sound "silly" to some, but are completely realistic and will become the necessary goals in the very near future.

Cool.
Srinath.


Title: Re: Good morning......
Post by WebsterMark on 12/03/19 at 13:02:41

Capitalism has been the single greatest driving force in upgrading the standard of living across the globe.

Title: Re: Good morning......
Post by T And T Garage on 12/03/19 at 14:01:14


7E4C4B5A5D4C5B64485B42290 wrote:
Capitalism has been the single greatest driving force in upgrading the standard of living across the globe.


No, it really hasn't.

It's made the rich richer and the poor, poorer.

When profit is all you focus on, profit is all you'll get.

Title: Re: Good morning......
Post by Mavigogun on 12/03/19 at 14:03:53


774542535445526D41524B200 wrote:
Capitalism has been the single greatest driving force in upgrading the standard of living across the globe.


Maybe so; while there's a lot to be said for literacy, moving from serfdom and indentured servitude to willing exchange has been incontestably transformative.   However, Laissez-Faire Capitalism has proved a bit of a circle, leading us back to servitude, a defacto landed-class of royalty, and environmental catastrophe.   Moderation, abjuring totality, judicious application of diverse principles is the best way forward.

Many of the Democrat candidates for President favor a blend of values and pragmatic reflection no longer offered by the GOP brand.

Title: Re: Good morning......
Post by WebsterMark on 12/03/19 at 14:07:19

It's made the rich richer and the poor, poorer.

That is demonstratively not even remotely true.

Compare the nations of Africa against any nation currently utilizing even a rudimentary form of a capitalist system.

Title: Re: Good morning......
Post by T And T Garage on 12/03/19 at 14:20:40


526067767160774864776E050 wrote:
It's made the rich richer and the poor, poorer.

That is demonstratively not even remotely true.

No? "Caught between the Scylla and Charybdis" is a pretty apt take.

Inequality has increased anywhere in the world despite substantial geographical differences, with the richest 1% twice as wealthy as the poorest 50%. The results of the World Inequality Report 2018.

http://www.lifegate.com/people/news/world-inequality-report-2018


Compare the nations of Africa against any nation currently utilizing even a rudimentary form of a capitalist system.


You didn't define it as rudimentary or blended.  Blended systems do indeed work.

Pure capitalism doesn't.

Be specific.

Title: Re: Good morning......
Post by Mavigogun on 12/03/19 at 14:22:28


407275646372655A76657C170 wrote:
Compare the nations of Africa against any nation currently utilizing even a rudimentary form of a capitalist system.


Uh- wha... can somebody explain to Mark that the US is closer to some African countries on the Index of Economic Freedom than it is to the top of the list?   Oh, never mind- facts don't matter.    The great thing about being a 'Merican is you can pontificate authoritatively about stuff you know nothing much about, make proclamations without regard for... well, truth.

Truth is, many African countries utilize more than a 'rudimentary form of capitalism'.   There are plenty of examples of failure, for sure- but nuance and understanding weren't really Mark's concern.

Title: Re: Good morning......
Post by srinath on 12/03/19 at 16:09:51

I'll try to answer some of these. Return questions on some others.

Free Public college - You mean community college ? No one is actually complaining about that and we don't even ask for it to be free, though for some people it can help, the issues are they don't do 4 year, and they're generally considered as crap, mainly because some of them are - now, my town has a good one. However, the perspective of them being crap causes many to avoid it. Not me, I'm pushing my son for it. BTW this is how all colleges in India used to be, students pay for their education, pretty much out of pocket no loans, no financing, no fake fees for 1 vs another who gets all these "grants". You pay for it in full, there are more $$$ and less $ colleges, sometimes not even varying in their education quality.

Why did I immigrate here - Plain and simple, I got cheated back in 1991. I got a H1 visa to do manual factory labor, and they even shafted me on the pay. It was a year before I was able to get out from under it, by then I had a car, some debts, some assets. Essentially it was getting irreversible. I lost a lot of ground trying to get my life back on track in India, and it was a break even getting it back together in the US. However 10 yrs on I was still in a mode to return, but soon enough with the baby etc it was where I had to decide - OK screw it, I'm here.

Why is amazon paying no taxes and hoarding $$$. Yes, they're crooks, and worse yet - they are also hiring a lot of people on H1, sub contracting a lot from other crooked companies and essentially, hitting that will not only throw that $$$ back into society here, it will also prevent a lot of "remittances" that devalue our currency, and reduce the effects of their pile of cash hidden overseas. Yea tax em at 80% and kill the H1 abuse in their name. Repeat with google, apple, facebook, etc etc.

I think you're missing the ppint on all this alternative energy. All that crap will cut emissions in 30%, 50%. 90% of my energy use is driving to work and heating my house. I bring in my brother from India and automatically he uses 10-30X what he did in India. Alternative this and that needs a crap ton of innovation and scaling up and this and that. Legislation is easy and cheap, if not free. Stop people from moving here. Stop people from commuting when they don't have to. Nearly 90% of jobs can be done remote, and when that is legislated, we will see a full on unwind of the entire "commute based" sector of the economy. We need 12 gas stations at every highway exit ? not if only 10% of people are on the road. Bridges crumbling ? well let em fall, take 90% of people off the road and see if they cant find a different route. The last 5 times I went to the "teller" to draw $$$ the teller was remote. Only problem was, he had to commute because he was in Jacksonville and had to physically drive to office. He really could have done that sitting at home. Innovate and scale up to make that 10% that's left over to 1%. Yea that can take time. But 90% is available now. Rather 80%, cos I am not living without heat. But prevent people from moving to the cold countries, and you save 90%.

I dont think my view is simplistic, but this is the low hanging fruit, scrape up that and the fruit that's already fallen. Then move on to harder to reach ones.

Cool.
Srinath.

Title: Re: Good morning......
Post by srinath on 12/03/19 at 16:55:37


575B4C535D555D4F543A0 wrote:
[quote author=774542535445526D41524B200 link=1575219644/30#37 date=1575406961]Capitalism has been the single greatest driving force in upgrading the standard of living across the globe.


Maybe so; while there's a lot to be said for literacy, moving from serfdom and indentured servitude to willing exchange has been incontestably transformative.   However, Laissez-Faire Capitalism has proved a bit of a circle, leading us back to servitude, a defacto landed-class of royalty, and environmental catastrophe.   Moderation, abjuring totality, judicious application of diverse principles is the best way forward.

Many of the Democrat candidates for President favor a blend of values and pragmatic reflection no longer offered by the GOP brand.[/quote]


Correct, its also lead people right back to slavery, being threatened with murder etc etc while the consumers pay more and more, for the likes of amazon and various other middle men take in the bulk of the $$$.

Broken supply chain, yea corrupt govt and this or that too, but broken supply chain - I heard that on NPR a few weeks ago, and it really struck me as being spot on. They mainly said that about chocolate, but I see parallels in any field with a ton of middlemen. Diamonds software engineers, the sex industry - That's why I say Ass to Zebra.

Cool.
Srinath.

Title: Re: Good morning......
Post by raydawg on 12/03/19 at 17:05:07

Lets see if we can answer this question first.....

Keep in mind, democracy, and the inherent freedom allowed and promoted, really has no historical sibling, we are unique upon ourselves, and with that understanding, or agreement (?) we need to be honest and admit we can never factor in all the changes that come with freedom, itself......

What would be more efficient, (remember, wasted energy creates a strain on resources too, which in theory, can cause more global warming itself, as a contributing factor.)

Folks having a system where access to "wealth" is through the market, and their own labor, or one relying solely on the dictates of a centralized power?

For the sake of argument, lets just choose one, for now, I know safeguards, etc, need to be implemented, etc, but that can come after which system we can decide offers the best, and most efficient, opportunities to self independence, and the freedom "wealth" can afford.  

 

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