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Message started by Eegore on 11/10/19 at 08:06:22

Title: Religion in Public Schools
Post by Eegore on 11/10/19 at 08:06:22

Since this comes up in other threads and I have been discussing it with high-school students the past year I figured its own thread would help consolidate ideas.

I ask for these guidelines to be followed for this thread:

The topic relate to religion in publicly funded schools in exclusivity, not private, charter, home or any other school type that doesn't receive a portion of its funding from US tax dollars.

Gun control, banning of guns, structure of US gun rights, active shooters in schools as a method to discuss gun bans, arming of teachers as a method to discuss gun bans are not part of the topic and I ask that those discussions remain in the many other threads containing that discussion type.

The Supreme Court, to my knowledge, has never reversed a decision banning the celebration of holidays in schools, anyone with information contrary is welcome to provide reference.

As far as I know one can practice their religion in public school. A school can not mandate, require, force or otherwise create a situation where any student must adhere to a religious practice. Students may however pray at school, as long as it does not interfere with classes/assemblies etc. similar to allowing students to bring their own lunch as long as it isn't something like bringing in a live animal that is slaughtered on school property to make sure it is prepared consistent with their religion.

The issue as far as I can tell is the school structuring the presentation or practice of a specific religion. For instance requiring prayer in the morning for all students, playing prayer over the intercom, requiring bible readings, teachers distributing Quran literature, things of this nature are not allowed as public taxes pay in portion for the education system to run.

Things allowed are FCA (Fellowship of Christian Athletes) and similar, which is completely optional. Bibles can be, and typically are in school libraries, students can pray on property, they can within the school's guidelines distribute religion information - and lets face it, bibles, pamphlets etc. are extremely outdated, distribution is done digitally through phones.

So lets start with three questions:

How do schools present without violating law, very specifically without violating law, present religion to children?

How do they select the religion types for presentation?

Should they be presented equally?

Title: Re: Religion in Public Schools
Post by raydawg on 11/10/19 at 09:39:48

It can't be led, taught, by a employee, but must be student led....in practicing their faith in schools, or any school functions.

It really is a moot point, anyway, taxes figure in re: religious donations, etc, and that could be said in violation of separation, as is the dollar bill, or a politician saying God Bless America, or a whole host of other examples, where public employees reference their religion....even Omar, and her religious head wear.....

What it really boils down to, in my opinion, is tolerance, of others.....

Live, and let live.

But in this world of capitalizing, on division, as a means to ones own power grab, we are not about to see very many live, and exhibit, the way they preach......

Not sure why you would even use this domain, the one you say is merely words on a screen, to find honest dialogue and exchange?

Good luck, however.....

Title: Re: Religion in Public Schools
Post by Eegore on 11/10/19 at 10:06:54

"or a politician saying God Bless America, or a whole host of other examples, where public employees reference their religion....even Omar, and her religious head wear..... "

There's nothing illegal about that, it is actually illegal to say they can not exercise their religion.

"Not sure why you would even use this domain, the one you say is merely words on a screen, to find honest dialogue and exchange?"

To place that statement in context I was referencing why someone felt they needed to retaliate against other members regarding negative statements made. A discussion makes sense, retaliation does not.

This by itself does not mean all words typed are without value. For instance information about carb tuning is valuable and of use even though they are technically only words on a screen, but who is offended here by carb discussions?

The issue I was referring to is why make retaliatory statements when the entirety of the damage done to oneself is exclusively emotional, and voluntary.

So to clarify:

Why retaliate against other member's opinions about oneself? They have with their words done zero damage beyond whatever emotional amount you allow them to do. They are not physical bodily or property damaging activities, they are only words on a screen that may or may not have discussion value within them. A discussion would be more valuable than an insult exchange.

Title: Re: Religion in Public Schools
Post by Eegore on 11/10/19 at 10:09:26

"Oh no.....just promote it more with positive references, success stories, etc....."

Can you elaborate?

Who promotes Christianity in the Public Schools System?

Title: Re: Religion in Public Schools
Post by raydawg on 11/10/19 at 10:41:45

1F3F3D35283F5A0 wrote:

"Oh no.....just promote it more with positive references, success stories, etc....."

Can you elaborate?

Who promotes Christianity in the Public Schools System?

Sure...peer to peer.

Title: Re: Religion in Public Schools
Post by Eegore on 11/10/19 at 12:22:10

"Sure...peer to peer."

So in this case I'm not sure its a school driven action as much as it is a circumstance of the demographics. Low Christian population = less Christian activity in schools etc.

When you indicate "Without peer pressure" I assume it just means students conducting self-imposed Bible study would have to be aware that they are not utilizing any peer pressure to do so?

Title: Re: Religion in Public Schools
Post by Serowbot on 11/10/19 at 14:43:40

If they're gonna' study the bible in school,.. is it okay if they study science in church?... ;D

Title: Re: Religion in Public Schools
Post by Eegore on 11/10/19 at 15:19:49

"If they're gonna' study the bible in school,.. is it okay if they study science in church?... "

Probably not.

One of the most interesting things about the Bill Nye vs. Ken Hamm debate was the last question where they were asked what would change their mind.

Hamm said nothing can ever change his mind, as it's the word of God he has read.

Nye said scientific evidence.

That's most of what I've been exposed to in regards to religion. As for schools science is an accepted topic but I have seen student "permission slips" that parents have to sign for kids to learn about evolution, take a social studies class that discusses religious practices in it, and even permission to go to the "biology" section of the local museum.

Title: Re: Religion in Public Schools
Post by raydawg on 11/10/19 at 15:24:22

4060626A7760050 wrote:

Absolutely.....it has to be free will, to choose, or reject, or its nothing.

Title: Re: Religion in Public Schools
Post by raydawg on 11/10/19 at 15:53:27

4D6D6F677A6D080 wrote:

Well there you go, your own bias and prejudices, speaks your truth and reality, no others need to apply.

Thank you for being honest finally.

In all my study groups, we have no censorship, we are not afraid of challenges to our faith.
Our proving, is in ourselves, if in fact, we can overcome the very grip, that holds so many hostage, to the flesh....
That is proof, to me, and all I need....your mileage may vary, I won't say its not, like some I see, who need to.

But on the subject of study, researching, of any given subject, criteria....
Why would I go to a course on french cooking, if I desire to learn more about psychology..... I would be expecting information to that which I seek.....

It appears you guys need others, to be wrong, so you can be right.....
And that is the very foundation, and breeding grounds, for contempt, discourse, confrontation....

My spirituality is as rooted in me, as deeply as any sexual orientation, or other born with/as trait......

Why do some people excel at certain things....?
Why can some do feats most others can't?
Why can some create arts, while most can't?
We say its because they were born with that gift...
Not science, or cell cloning, or....

Lots of riddles, no answers, and for what....ego, pride, prestige....???

Why can civilizations exist, in remote locations in this shrinking world, without the civilized thinking of elitist, and academia who think they are purveyors of knowledge and wisdom?

You want to challenge that, then everything is on the table, and it will lead to much dismay, agony, and no resolutions.

Its as old as mankind......

The question is: Why do I need to be right?

Title: Re: Religion in Public Schools
Post by Eegore on 11/10/19 at 16:51:13

"Well there you go, your own bias and prejudices, speaks your truth and reality, no others need to apply.

Thank you for being honest finally."

What are you talking about? In what capacity have I been dishonest?

What bias and prejudices apply when paraphrasing someone else? They aren't my words, those were the words of Ken Hamm and Bill Nye.

If I quote Trump does that mean I am Trump and as such share the same bias and prejudices?

Title: Re: Religion in Public Schools
Post by T And T Garage on 11/11/19 at 09:38:26

0A2A28203D2A4F0 wrote:

So lets start with three questions:

How do schools present without violating law, very specifically without violating law, present religion to children?

How do they select the religion types for presentation?

Should they be presented equally?

I don't think there is a way for a public school to present religion to children - other than providing a definition and possibly explaining the differences between the different sects/cultures. But that might be akin to Social Studies.

There are plenty of parochial schools in the US - the public school system should not present any type of deep studies of religion - IMHO.

Title: Re: Religion in Public Schools
Post by Eegore on 11/11/19 at 13:32:20

But that might be akin to Social Studies.

I agree here, and also this is where I was exposed to religion types when I was in school when it comes specifically from the school itself.

I do, to a degree, understand some of the concern or backlash or whatever one want's to call it when it comes to a public school teaching religion concept. There are a lot of bonehead teachers out there.

Limiting exposure I do not necessarily understand, but having some teacher say one is better than the other I can see as an issue. This is part, but not all, of why there are consent forms, or permission slips for students to be exposed to certain curriculum.

Title: Re: Religion in Public Schools
Post by verslagen1 on 11/11/19 at 14:32:18

While the school is prevented from teaching religion, I don't think they should be preventing the student from doing so in their school work.