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SuzukiSavage.com
/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> Post- Harvey: Under the Head Cover /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1572065671 Message started by Mavigogun on 10/25/19 at 21:54:31 |
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Title: Post- Harvey: Under the Head Cover Post by Mavigogun on 10/25/19 at 21:54:31 So, I raised the bike- my wife's first -up as high as I could- 18", or so, atop a hastily rigged ramp in the living room -as the flood water rose. In the end, the water stabilized around exhaust-header-height- for over a week. After the waters receded, we drained the crank case, but found only oil in it- some miracle, that. Disassembled the carb and air box, both of which seemed clean. When we got this 2007 bike in 2017 with 3000 miles on the odometer, it would reliably cut out/loose power in the high 60's; the previous owner had put a Harley exhaust on it, but made no changes to the carb. Since we had it off for cleaning, we rejetted, adjusted the screw, and, hey-presto, it could sustain an indicated 82; faster than that sustained, the bike would loose power, demand to be ran at a crawl for a few minutes, if not stopped, before creeping back up to the max-reliable speed. In the next year, she put 3-4 hundred miles on it before switching to a CB500F. The Savage became my first bike. The whole cruiser style wasn't my thing, and the heavy front end seemed sluggish- but that single big rumbling cylinder- there was no mistake that you were riding a machine. I dug it. I could live with 82 mph, so put 2300 miles on it in less than 2 months. A couple weeks ago I checked the oil, and- nothing in the little window. Balanced the bike upright while curled low, waiting for it to fall on me. Still nothing in the window. Tilted it toward me a bit. Still nothing. I had no clue riding the bike hard it would drink oil. There was a fine mist of oil on the battery box that I attributed to road muck. So, I drained the very little oil remaining, filled-and-drained it again to removed any burnt remnants, replaced the filter, topped it off. After the first long ride, I noticed fresh oil on the battery box; after the second, the battery box, speedo cable, and upper right fins were oil covered. Looking into the recess behind the exhaust header port reveled a pool of oil. So, I freaked out, curled up in a little ball on the sofa with this forum, began sifting through posts, and discovered the infamous bolt-cap leak. It seemed, given the leak localization, like a reasonable place to start. While dissembling the head cover, I was alarmed to find the spark plug was only finger tight; while there was oil back behind the recess at the top end of the plug, there was no oil on the normally air-exposed head top on the left side. I was surprised to find the bolt cap stuck firmly in place. So, I've removed remnants of the old gasket from the cover and head, carefully pealing away ribbons of (?)silicon and rubbing the surface clean with a cloth. A few questions: 1) that loose spark plug was screwy, wasn't it? 2) what's with the stuck bolt cap? I'm the proud owner of a Verslagen plug, so will be replacing it, but whatyathink- could that stuck plug still be responsible for the leak? How should I dislodge it, anyway? Is it advisable to grab its top rim with pliers and tug? 3) is wiping the surface in prep for the gasket sufficient, or need I use a de-greaser, such as denature alcohol? 4) the head cover bolts located directly under the frame required the use of a universal adapter to get a wrench on; I can't imagine getting a torque wrench on them directly -are you able to? 5) the head cap clearance over the timing chain is crazy tight getting it off/on- so I'm inclined to only put gasket on the head, not the cap, to avoid smearing on assembly. Is that cool? 6) if I elect to replace the cam shaft cap, can it be removed without disturbing the shaft? Should it receive any gasket? (I'm guessing "no".) Here are some pictures just to make the post seem interesting. Who knows? -maybe you'll see something. Notice the corrosion on the springs. What's that funky coil of metal mesh in the head cover? -some sort of oil filter? Notice the blue number painted inside the head near the chain- ever seen THAT before? http://suzukisavage.com/yabb2.2/Attachments/mystery_numbers.jpeg http://suzukisavage.com/yabb2.2/Attachments/Some_Sort_of_Filter.jpeg http://suzukisavage.com/yabb2.2/Attachments/Infamous_Cap.jpeg http://suzukisavage.com/yabb2.2/Attachments/Spring_Corrosion.jpeg http://suzukisavage.com/yabb2.2/Attachments/General_Condition_Overview.jpeg |
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Title: Re: Post- Harvey: Under the Head Cover Post by verslagen1 on 10/25/19 at 22:36:41 0E02150A040C04160D630 wrote:
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not corrosion, paint. mesh is for oil recovery. nope, but they do paint marks in various places. |
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Title: Re: Post- Harvey: Under the Head Cover Post by verslagen1 on 10/25/19 at 22:42:26 While it may seem cool to put those pict's all in the one post by uploading in another. if that post is ever deleted, there goes your picts. |
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Title: Re: Post- Harvey: Under the Head Cover Post by Dave on 10/26/19 at 06:07:54 I have found that the left front cylinder stud can create an oil leak near the spark plug. The stud has a cavity around it, and the oil drains from the head back to the crankcase around this stud. The brass washer under the nut can sometimes weep oil. When I have the head cover off I take this nut and washer off, clean everything up, apply a small amount of RTV to both sides of the washer and install it, then put a small dab of never seize on the stud and then install the nut and torque the nut. (I do the same on the right rear stud, as it can weep oil if not sealed and if you look at the right rear of the head - you can see where this stud is visible and oil will leak out the right rear of the cylinder). Do you still have the stock vacuum petcock on the bike? If so - it could be the cause of the loss of power at speed. When you are using a lot of engine power the amount of vacuum decreases, and if the diaphragm in the petcock is stiff it can reduce the amount of fuel flow and starve the carb for fuel. This can also happen if you have installed an inline filter..........don't stick an additional filter in the fuel line, as the plastic housings are thick and the small inlet/outlet holes are restrictive and reduce fuel flow (and they can air lock and prevent any fuel flow). Replace the stock petcock with a real Yamaha Raptor petcock (don't get a cheap chinese copy....get the real part that come in a white Yamaha box and costs around $30). |
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Title: Re: Post- Harvey: Under the Head Cover Post by batman on 10/26/19 at 07:16:30 [quote author=727E69767870786A711F0 link=1572065671/0#0 date=. Since we had it off for cleaning, we rejetted, adjusted the screw, and, hey-presto, it could sustain an indicated 82; faster than that sustained, the bike would loose power, demand to be ran at a crawl for a few minutes, if not stopped, before creeping back up to the max-reliable speed. . The fact that the bike lost power was caused by it running lean, I would think ,you changed jets, but you didn't mention doing the spacer mod to raise the jet needle, that may cause you to run lean in mid range, and even more so at throttle openings greater than 3/4 (overheat) which is why when you slow down and the motor drops down to normal temperature it will again repeat to 82 mph until it overheats again . You could damage the motor by running to lean running to rich wastes fuel, and may foul your sparkplug (it can be cleaned and reused) but won't damage your motor. I'd do the spacer mod ! How many # 4 steel machine washers you use ,(or if you sand down the white plastic spacer) depends on your elevation above sea level, generally 1/2 spacer or 2 washers below 1000ft or 3/4 or 3 spacers above 1000 ft . doing the mod will allow you to feel a real increase in performance as well,faster pickup and a top speed of about 85-87 mph. |
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Title: Re: Post- Harvey: Under the Head Cover Post by Mavigogun on 10/26/19 at 08:03:44 Great feed-back, all. The spacer mod, I believe, wasn't performed, but has been on my radar, and will be confronted. The petcock is stock- now a Raptor is on the way. The casing around left-side studs are dry- I'm reticent to add a new variable before testing my handiwork, as I don't yet trust my technique -but is great to be made aware of when regarding the engine, and in the event of a future rebuild. I'll acetone clean the gasket surfaces. All things considered, a remarkably robust design. I wonder if a "modern" bike with fuel injection would have fared as well. I'll include a picture of the spark plug for another data point. I wonder if the new plug will come with a washer? Does anything under the cover need lubing before all is re-interned? |
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Title: Re: Post- Harvey: Under the Head Cover Post by Mavigogun on 10/26/19 at 08:05:03 To prevent imaging orphaning, I'll attach the previous images in sequence. |
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Title: Re: Post- Harvey: Under the Head Cover Post by Mavigogun on 10/26/19 at 08:05:41 Infamous cap. |
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Title: Re: Post- Harvey: Under the Head Cover Post by Mavigogun on 10/26/19 at 08:06:18 Paint, apparently. |
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Title: Re: Post- Harvey: Under the Head Cover Post by Mavigogun on 10/26/19 at 08:07:26 Vista shot. |
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Title: Re: Post- Harvey: Under the Head Cover Post by Mavigogun on 10/26/19 at 08:08:17 ...your lucky numbers are: |
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Title: Re: Post- Harvey: Under the Head Cover Post by Dave on 10/26/19 at 09:32:34 Lube the cam lobes, and when the head cover is back on - squirt oil through the exhaust valve access hole to fill the trough under the cam. |
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Title: Re: Post- Harvey: Under the Head Cover Post by Mavigogun on 10/26/19 at 09:59:00 457E7364757962647F777A65160 wrote:
With what shall I lube the cam? Just engine oil? Is the "exhaust valve access hole" the cavity just to the bike-oriented-right of the exhaust header flange? If so, that seems to be one of the sources of my recent leak. The attached image is looking at the engine from the front of the bike. |
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Title: Re: Post- Harvey: Under the Head Cover Post by Mavigogun on 10/26/19 at 10:12:08 Here's another curiosity- the view into the cavity next to where the exhaust header attaches to the engine. I've suspended a light above the engine with the cover off; light may be seen at the back of the cavity, toward the back side of the engine. I could use an explainer on how this open cavity leading into the space under the header cover works. Is it for cooling? Some sort of pressure device? What would be the consequence of limited airflow into the cavity be? -such as at low speed, or if a fairing diverted air around the opening? Tangential, will dispensing with the aluminum engine side overs have any impact worth mentioning? Topical to the oil leak, and having found oil pooled in the cavity, might-could that first bolt at the bottom inside of the cavity be a likely contributor? |
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Title: Re: Post- Harvey: Under the Head Cover Post by Mavigogun on 10/26/19 at 10:20:01 645F5245545843455E565B44370 wrote:
The original petcock features an integrated filter; what will do that job once the Raptor replaces it, if not an in-line filter? Does the design of the Yamaha petcock preclude the uptake of tank debris, or is the prospect of contaminates the price paid for better flow? Or something else, beyond my imagining? |
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Title: Re: Post- Harvey: Under the Head Cover Post by DragBikeMike on 10/26/19 at 12:10:51 The new Raptor petcock will have a filter/screen incorporated. Make sure you remove the clear plastic protective cover tube before you install the Raptor petcock. Your photos seem to indicate that the leak is coming from the infamous head plug. The Verslagen plug should fix that. Your spark plug didn't have a washer/gasket??? The new plug will come with a washer/gasket. Your description of the 82 mph limit followed by a period of time where it barely runs is a classic description of a fuel delivery problem. When you take it up to 82 mph the throttle is open almost all the way. Under that condition, there is no manifold vacuum. Manifold vacuum holds the stock petcock open. No vacuum, no open, no fuel. The float bowl runs dry, the engine slows down. You then put around at slow speed for awhile and the manifold vacuum is high enough to open the petcock and the float bowl fills up and things go back to normal. The Raptor petcock should solve that problem. Dave, I'm confused about your comment regarding the "right rear stud". The nut for that stud is within the confines of the rocker box. You can't see it when the head cover is in place. |
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Title: Re: Post- Harvey: Under the Head Cover Post by Dave on 10/26/19 at 15:21:14 76707F03010602320 wrote:
If you get to the back of the cylinder, and you look into the rear of the head right beside the carb spigot.....and you look hard and long enough, you can see the shiny silver cylinder stud is exposed and visible in the air channel that begins under the head plug and goes to the back of the cylinder. If the copper washer and nut are not sealed well, oil can weep down the stud and the hot air coming through the head picks up the oil and blows it everywhere. Seems a bit weird that the head is cast to allow this stud to become exposed when it has oil on top in the cam housing, and oil underneath in the cylinder where the oil supply for the cam housing travels along this stud. If you are one who likes to re-use these copper washers when you put the engine back together - be sure to put some sealant on the left front and right rear studs to eliminate the potential leaksl! |
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Title: Re: Post- Harvey: Under the Head Cover Post by batman on 10/26/19 at 18:20:57 those washers are generally reusable ,but you should anneal them before reuse , it softens the copper , and makes RTV an option. when pressed for a replacement ( if the copper is bent or kinked it forms a hard spot and may not seal) you can drill a penny and use it, but the penny must be dated before 1984 , when a penny was 97% copper and 3% zinc . After that date a penny was made mostly of zinc with a copper coating and won't work. That plug needs cleaning /and gapping , but can be reused. |
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Title: Re: Post- Harvey: Under the Head Cover Post by DragBikeMike on 10/27/19 at 11:14:48 Dave, how did I miss that? Great observation. I'm gonna pay a bit more attention to that right-rear stud. |
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Title: Re: Post- Harvey: Under the Head Cover Post by Mavigogun on 10/27/19 at 13:28:49 Remember- unlike ferris metals, quench copper to maximize annealing. |
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Title: Re: Post- Harvey: Under the Head Cover Post by batman on 10/27/19 at 14:13:29 The washers do not need to be quenched, just allow them to air cool, quenching merely stops the process , it is used more for example : on brass shell casings where you want the neck of the shell to be annealed to except the bullet without splitting but the base of the shell to not deform. |
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Title: Re: Post- Harvey: Under the Head Cover Post by Dave on 10/27/19 at 16:55:32 52545B27252226160 wrote:
The first fellow to suffer from a leak in this area was Ralfyguy - it took a while for us to figure out the source of his leak, as he had replaced the famous plug and still had oil weeping and making the back of his head oily. http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1463943729/0 |
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Title: Re: Post- Harvey: Under the Head Cover Post by verslagen1 on 10/27/19 at 17:02:13 This will find your leak... http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1335737953 |
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Title: Re: Post- Harvey: Under the Head Cover Post by Mavigogun on 10/29/19 at 13:29:09 5A616C7B6A667D7B6068657A090 wrote:
1) What should the cam lobes be lube with? -just engine oil? 2) Maybe I’m looking right at it, but what/where is the exhaust valve access hole? Is the referenced trough the cavity located directly under the infamous bolt plug? Are you talking about squirting oil into the cavity next to the exhaust header? |
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Title: Re: Post- Harvey: Under the Head Cover Post by verslagen1 on 10/29/19 at 13:34:31 0D011609070F07150E600 wrote:
1) What should the cam lobes be lube with? -just engine oil? 2) Maybe I’m looking right at it, but what/where is the exhaust valve access hole? Is the referenced trough the cavity located directly under the infamous bolt plug? Are you talking about squirting oil into the cavity next to the exhaust header? [/quote] Yes, engine oil aka valve inspection port, you know that cover you remove to adjust the valves. |
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Title: Re: Post- Harvey: Under the Head Cover Post by DragBikeMike on 10/30/19 at 02:53:24 The referenced trough is directly below the cam lobes. Under normal operation, the trough fills with oil and the lobes dip into the oil as the cam rotates. It is NOT the cavity directly underneath the "infamous bolt plug". This is a picture of the trough. |
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Title: Re: Post- Harvey: Under the Head Cover Post by DragBikeMike on 10/30/19 at 03:01:42 See the oil in the trough? Can you picture how the cam lobes will dip into the oil as the cam rotates? You want the trough FULL of oil before you start the engine. I know that others have advised you to fill the trough by removing the exhaust valve cover (the oval cover you remove to adjust valves). But I have found it much easier to see & fill the trough through the intake valve side. So I recommend you remove the intake valve cover and fill the trough. The fuel tank must be removed but its worth the hassle to have good access for visual observation while filling. It's easy. Don't skip this step. Fill the trough with oil before you start the engine. |
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Title: Re: Post- Harvey: Under the Head Cover Post by Mavigogun on 11/02/19 at 20:07:18 So, head cap back on, Raptor installed, it's a new bike. Used to choke out above 82 indicated, now I can peg out the speedometer with some throttle left. Should just be happy, but- It's still leaking oil. It seems like it might be aspirating out the cavity on the engine head just to the right of the carb. (What’s it for, anyway? What’s it called?). So, after getting the head cover in place, I filled the cam trough with oil using a tube fed in via the valve port. This probably introduced too much oil. The oil level was on the high side- might this account for the oil aspirated from the as-yet-unnamed orifice? |
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Title: Re: Post- Harvey: Under the Head Cover Post by verslagen1 on 11/02/19 at 21:41:51 This will find your leak... http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1335737953 |
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Title: Re: Post- Harvey: Under the Head Cover Post by batman on 11/03/19 at 07:08:35 You can't over fill the trough, it would simply spill over to the valve spring area and drain back to the engine case ,it's normal return path. |
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Title: Re: Post- Harvey: Under the Head Cover Post by Dave on 11/03/19 at 08:38:18 Can you post a photo of the leaky area? :-? |
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Title: Re: Post- Harvey: Under the Head Cover Post by Mavigogun on 11/03/19 at 14:45:43 That was my suspicion, Batman (strange, but I have trouble using that name)- it's good to have confirmation; my over-filling concern was with the total amount of oil in the engine/transmission system, not in the trough. A few illustrations, Dave, et alia. First, the orifice in question: |
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Title: Re: Post- Harvey: Under the Head Cover Post by Mavigogun on 11/03/19 at 14:50:08 Here's a view of the area impacted- including the carb, battery box, and starter motor. There seems to be some oil migrating forward on the bottom three unpainted radiator fin outer edge, I believe from the same source, as I've yet to find evidence of a leek from the head gasket. |
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Title: Re: Post- Harvey: Under the Head Cover Post by Mavigogun on 11/03/19 at 14:55:05 Notice that oil has accumulated on these carb features, including the just-installed vacuum cap- though elevation of deposits don't mean much when oil is aerosolized into turbulent air. |
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Title: Re: Post- Harvey: Under the Head Cover Post by Dave on 11/03/19 at 15:28:25 If the oil is not coming from the head plug over the right front cylinder stud - then it is the right rear head stud leaking. See my posts #16 and #21 in this thread. |
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Title: Re: Post- Harvey: Under the Head Cover Post by verslagen1 on 11/03/19 at 15:36:05 When you installed the versiplug, did you leave both O-rings on the plug? |
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Title: Re: Post- Harvey: Under the Head Cover Post by Mavigogun on 11/03/19 at 16:09:40 5D4E5958474A4C4E451A2B0 wrote:
I'm not sure if I should dread this question, or be grateful it could be the source. I lubed the plug with engine oil, inserted it with the second ring pressing against the top surface- it seemed too tight a fit to accommodate the second ring in the hole. I'll pull the cover again now. |
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Title: Re: Post- Harvey: Under the Head Cover Post by Mavigogun on 11/03/19 at 16:18:07 4B584F4E515C5A58530C3D0 wrote:
Maybe I misinterpreted intent. Both rings were on the plug; the lower ring inserted fully into the hole, the upper ring pressed against the outer gasket surface of the head. It resembled the attached image. It did not strike me as particularly tight; the plug was only press fit by thumb- and I could have pulled it out held merely between thumb and pinky. My reckoning on correct can't be relied upon- please be explicit with direction. |
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Title: Re: Post- Harvey: Under the Head Cover Post by Mavigogun on 11/04/19 at 11:07:55 5C676A7D6C607B7D666E637C0F0 wrote:
After removing the cover to access those bolts, can I remove the nut to anneal the copper washer without jeopardizing the other engine gaskets? If not, do you reckon I should just torque those bolts to spec, in lieu of removal for washer rehab, or resign myself to replacing all the engine gaskets? How does the disposition of the versiplug sound to you from my description, verslagen1? |
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Title: Re: Post- Harvey: Under the Head Cover Post by verslagen1 on 11/04/19 at 12:04:12 707C6B747A727A68731D0 wrote:
Sounds OK. If you remove only 1 nut at a time, and retorque before going to the next, any associated gaskets should be fine. |
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Title: Re: Post- Harvey: Under the Head Cover Post by Dave on 11/04/19 at 16:20:20 Yep, I agree with Versy....remove one nut and washer at a time and you will not have to worry about any gaskets - that is now a "re-torque" of the nuts should be done. On the right rear stud, apply a small amount of sealer on the bottom and top of the copper washer before you install it, and use anti-seize on the stud and nut. And.......remove the orange RTV and get some genuine Suzikibond. Suzukibond is black and blends in with the engine parts - and it doesn't let everybody know you were inside the engine. It also sets up slower and give you a lot more working time, and it stays fresh in the tube (unlike the kind you get in the local auto store or Walmart) - I bought my tube of Suzukibond in 2012 and I am still using it. https://www.partsfish.com/product/20518/suzuki-bond-1207b-part-99104-31140 |
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Title: Re: Post- Harvey: Under the Head Cover Post by Mavigogun on 11/04/19 at 19:45:32 Thanks, all. I’ll pop the top the apply torque as directed. :) I chose the Copper gasket so I could clearly see the results of my application. I’ll hit the flash with a scalpel- thanks for noticing! |
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Title: Re: Post- Harvey: Under the Head Cover Post by Mavigogun on 11/07/19 at 09:12:03 6162776E626D373B030 wrote:
I was taught, oh-so-many years ago in a metals class, the softest crystal structure of copper is a transient state, the crystal size morphing further as cooling progresses; by quenching in the hottest state, rapid cooling preserves the softer structure. Maybe not necessary here- we were doing a lot of hammer work, raising and forming, chasing and repoussé. |
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Title: Re: Post- Harvey: Under the Head Cover Post by Mavigogun on 11/07/19 at 09:22:37 Is there a copper washer under the nut under the bolt cap plug, too? Is there no way to torque that nut without pulling the engine out? The bolt head is beyond reach with just the head cover off. :/ |
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Title: Re: Post- Harvey: Under the Head Cover Post by batman on 11/07/19 at 10:25:10 The reason the plug is there is to allow access to that head bolt, try inserting a deep well socket in first, then attaching the torque wrench, if that doesn't work , remove the exhaust header/muffler . and the two long bolts holding the foot pegs/ controls (maybe loosen your final drive belt) , that should allow the motor to swing forward and down between the lower frame rails giving you room to torque ,without completely removal of the motor. (don't work harder, work smarter." Logic is the best tool in the box"- Batman :)) |
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Title: Re: Post- Harvey: Under the Head Cover Post by Mavigogun on 11/07/19 at 10:30:19 7C474A5D4C405B5D464E435C2F0 wrote:
Hey! -how are the front right and back left studs/nuts identified on the torque spec list? Cylinder head nuts? Cylinder to crank case nuts? They are 14 mm... |
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Title: Re: Post- Harvey: Under the Head Cover Post by batman on 11/07/19 at 14:02:35 Cylinder head nuts- 8mm 16.5 to19.5 ft.-lb. (2) - 9mm 21 to 24 ft.-lb. (4) the nuts maybe 14mm . but the studs are listed by their thread size. |
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Title: Re: Post- Harvey: Under the Head Cover Post by Mavigogun on 11/07/19 at 16:45:07 The torque list from the document section of this site includes "Cylinder-to-Crankcase nuts", "Head-to-Cylinder nuts 8mm", and "Cylinder Head nuts 9mm". It's freak'n confusing. After reading in Clymer that the 4 threaded rod ends accessed at the top of the head were labelled "cylinder head-to-crankcase studs", I used the torque value from the list here for "Cylinder-to-Crankcase nuts" -removing one at a time, annealing the copper washer, applying some silicon to either side, and torquing to 5.9-8.8'lbs. Which, apparently, is very, very wrong. So, now that all my gaskets aren't properly compressed, I suppose I'm left to just hope that they still seal once retorqued to 21-24' lbs. Fux-ity-fux-fux-fux. |
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Title: Re: Post- Harvey: Under the Head Cover Post by batman on 11/07/19 at 23:06:49 Perhaps you should wait for the answer to your questions Before you proceed ? It is interesting to note that the NKG sparkplug that needs to be torqued into your head has a spec of 18 to 20 ft/lbs. in an alum. head, it seals the head against compression too. if you had gone with that number(20) it would have had you very close. |
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Title: Re: Post- Harvey: Under the Head Cover Post by Mavigogun on 11/08/19 at 00:52:49 I felt like a pest with all my incessant questions, reckoned it was incumbent on me to exercise agency, where possible. I just made learning a bit more painful than necessary. Thanks again for the help, education. |
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Title: Re: Post- Harvey: Under the Head Cover Post by batman on 11/08/19 at 05:46:40 I've learned the hard way many times ,I think the best thing is not to make the same one twice ! |
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Title: Re: Post- Harvey: Under the Head Cover Post by Mavigogun on 11/19/19 at 08:54:09 Finally got to go for a test ride after being away for 10 days; power seems fine, but examining the stud under the infamous cap, there is oil gathered around the nut. The Versi-plug was well seated, the gasket application seems successful, and the copper washer was annealed and the nut torqued to spec; maybe I should have replaced the washer with a new one -surely torquing above spec isn't a viable solution... is it? |
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Title: Re: Post- Harvey: Under the Head Cover Post by batman on 11/19/19 at 09:48:37 Torque above what's listed ,may not even be possible , you'll likely just be stretching the stud, and the torque will then return to it's normal level. If you waited too long between torqueing from 8? to 24 ft/lbs ,( did you torque after returning from your trip? ) the copper washer may have air hardened . You may have to anneal it and torque again. |
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Title: Re: Post- Harvey: Under the Head Cover Post by Mavigogun on 11/19/19 at 10:05:40 67647168646B313D050 wrote:
It needs be installed hot? It was cooled, then installed forthwith. I noticed most of the copper washers were stamped where they had conformed after previous mounting; I suppose, annealed or not, once replaced, the surfaces may not have aligned in a complimentary way. Regardless, it is heartening to have the cause not be mysterious. |
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Title: Re: Post- Harvey: Under the Head Cover Post by batman on 11/19/19 at 22:14:52 they shouldn't be installed hot, I just didn't know if had delayed too long. It may have helped if you spread a thin layer of RTV on both side of the copper washers as oil does tend to migrate between the copper and the casings. |
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Title: Re: Post- Harvey: Under the Head Cover Post by Mavigogun on 11/26/19 at 06:38:28 I applied a small amount of the same RTV gasket used on the head cover. Regarding the washers, they were quenched to preserve the softest crystal structure. If the washers aren't copper, rather an alloy of copper, some most certainly exit harder when quenched at specific temperatures compared to when left to cool. I can find no indication that precipitation hardening, aka "age hardening" is a factor with copper- some alloys that include copper, yes; they typically require maintaining threshold temperatures of many hundreds of degrees for migration of other elements held in the quenching solution, though. Metallurgy is so context dependent, and I'm not sufficiently intimate with either that art or the material of the washer to make any absolute proclamations. I shouldn't have presumed it was pure copper, and just accepted your demonstrated results. |
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Title: Re: Post- Harvey: Under the Head Cover Post by batman on 11/26/19 at 07:58:45 I would not quench the washers , I think that would harden them , the opposite of you want to do. |
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Title: Re: Post- Harvey: Under the Head Cover Post by justin_o_guy2 on 11/28/19 at 00:42:34 To anneal copper Heat to glowing dull red Quench. |
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Title: Re: Post- Harvey: Under the Head Cover Post by DragBikeMike on 11/29/19 at 18:53:47 Regarding annealing, I have always used the heat and air-cool method. It seemed to work OK. Then I got new copper gaskets from Copper Gaskets Unlimited. They provided annealing instructions. It seems the water quench is the way to go. I have attached a jpeg of their annealing procedure. Since CGU is in the copper gasket biz, I figure they probably have the inside scoop. Regarding the application of sealant to the copper washers, I have been testing the cylinder studs to determine the best tightening method. My cylinder base gasket failed. When I disassembled the engine to replace the gasket, I noted that the cylinder head nuts did not seem all that tight. Those nuts were installed with silicone sealant on the copper washer (both sides). So while its apart, I decided to do some tests. At the specified torque, silicone sealant applied to the washers reduces the stud stretch dramatically. I have tried three different silicone sealants and the results are identical. With sealant applied to the washers, stretch drops from .019" (with oil) to .009" (with sealant). That is a bunch. Note that the factory manual specifies oil. If you think that you can rectify the problem by simply applying more torque, I would not advise it. When you start taking the nuts past the maximum specified torque (24 ft-lbs), the washers start galling. At 600 inch-lbs (50 ft-lbs), the stretch was only .017". I quit there because that's the limit on the torque wrench I was using. |
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Title: Re: Post- Harvey: Under the Head Cover Post by DragBikeMike on 11/29/19 at 19:02:41 As I was doing the tests, increased friction was very apparent when silicone sealant was applied. The wrench action was not smooth. It was very evident that I was getting far less rotation for a given torque value. My calculations indicate that the resultant clamping force is not sufficient to keep the joint closed at peak cylinder pressure of 1000 psig (typical value for a production engine at full power). When I finish the tests I will post the results. It's very interesting. This is a picture of some of the galled washers. |
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Title: Re: Post- Harvey: Under the Head Cover Post by Mavigogun on 11/30/19 at 07:03:47 Great report. What do you make of the color of those washers? Are they just copper plated? |
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Title: Re: Post- Harvey: Under the Head Cover Post by batman on 11/30/19 at 08:08:39 Mavigogun, You said you changed jets in the carb ,but you didn't say anything about doing the spacer mod, and we have no idea of your elevation above sea level. You say you can live with the bike doing 82mph, but the real question is can your bike live with it? The fact that your speed fades and you must slow down is a sure sign that it's overheating from being jetted to lean, this can do some real damage. If your riding the bike at speeds high enough that your oil level is dropping (which is normal for this bike) , you could running lean , burn /drop a valve, or be blasting metal off the piston dome. I wouldn't keep running it that way. |
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Title: Re: Post- Harvey: Under the Head Cover Post by Mavigogun on 11/30/19 at 08:41:00 4A495C4549461C10280 wrote:
All great to know, for sure. The power drop off is a thing of the past with the new petcock- see post #27. I'm rolling around sea level. Spacer mod forthcoming. |
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Title: Re: Post- Harvey: Under the Head Cover Post by batman on 11/30/19 at 12:33:15 Progressive Texas : latitude 31.4 degrees longitude -99.3degrees elevation 455meters/1495 ft your a long way from sea level. |
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Title: Re: Post- Harvey: Under the Head Cover Post by DragBikeMike on 11/30/19 at 17:03:41 Mavigogun, the color you see (silver) is the aluminum gall-welded to the copper washer. In this picture, you can see the bottom of the nut, where the copper was being deposited on the face of the nut. The silicone sealant is obviously a very poor lubricant. It doesn't bode well for proper fastener stress. |
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