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Message started by raydawg on 10/18/19 at 11:10:31

Title: Less we forget.......
Post by raydawg on 10/18/19 at 11:10:31

"Ask Not What Your Country Can Do For You"

John F. Kennedy's Inaugural Address, January 20, 1961

We observe today not a victory of party, but a celebration of freedom — symbolizing an end, as well as a beginning — signifying renewal, as well as change. For I have sworn before you and Almighty God the same solemn oath our forebears prescribed nearly a century and three quarters ago.

The world is very different now. For man holds in his mortal hands the power to abolish all forms of human poverty and all forms of human life. And yet the same revolutionary beliefs for which our forebears fought are still at issue around the globe — the belief that the rights of man come not from the generosity of the state, but from the hand of God.

We dare not forget today that we are the heirs of that first revolution. Let the word go forth from this time and place, to friend and foe alike, that the torch has been passed to a new generation of Americans — born in this century, tempered by war, disciplined by a hard and bitter peace, proud of our ancient heritage — and unwilling to witness or permit the slow undoing of those human rights to which this Nation has always been committed, and to which we are committed today at home and around the world.

Let every nation know, whether it wishes us well or ill, that we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe, in order to assure the survival and the success of liberty.

This much we pledge — and more.

To those old allies whose cultural and spiritual origins we share, we pledge the loyalty of faithful friends. United, there is little we cannot do in a host of cooperative ventures. Divided, there is little we can do — for we dare not meet a powerful challenge at odds and split asunder.

To those new States whom we welcome to the ranks of the free, we pledge our word that one form of colonial control shall not have passed away merely to be replaced by a far more iron tyranny. We shall not always expect to find them supporting our view. But we shall always hope to find them strongly supporting their own freedom — and to remember that, in the past, those who foolishly sought power by riding the back of the tiger ended up inside.

To those peoples in the huts and villages across the globe struggling to break the bonds of mass misery, we pledge our best efforts to help them help themselves, for whatever period is required — not because the Communists may be doing it, not because we seek their votes, but because it is right. If a free society cannot help the many who are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich.

To our sister republics south of our border, we offer a special pledge — to convert our good words into good deeds — in a new alliance for progress — to assist free men and free governments in casting off the chains of poverty. But this peaceful revolution of hope cannot become the prey of hostile powers. Let all our neighbours know that we shall join with them to oppose aggression or subversion anywhere in the Americas. And let every other power know that this Hemisphere intends to remain the master of its own house.

To that world assembly of sovereign states, the United Nations, our last best hope in an age where the instruments of war have far outpaced the instruments of peace, we renew our pledge of support — to prevent it from becoming merely a forum for invective — to strengthen its shield of the new and the weak — and to enlarge the area in which its writ may run.

Finally, to those nations who would make themselves our adversary, we offer not a pledge but a request: that both sides begin anew the quest for peace, before the dark powers of destruction unleashed by science engulf all humanity in planned or accidental self-destruction.

We dare not tempt them with weakness. For only when our arms are sufficient beyond doubt can we be certain beyond doubt that they will never be employed.

But neither can two great and powerful groups of nations take comfort from our present course — both sides overburdened by the cost of modern weapons, both rightly alarmed by the steady spread of the deadly atom, yet both racing to alter that uncertain balance of terror that stays the hand of mankind's final war.

So let us begin anew — remembering on both sides that civility is not a sign of weakness, and sincerity is always subject to proof. Let us never negotiate out of fear. But let us never fear to negotiate.

Let both sides explore what problems unite us instead of belabouring those problems which divide us.

Let both sides, for the first time, formulate serious and precise proposals for the inspection and control of arms — and bring the absolute power to destroy other nations under the absolute control of all nations.

Let both sides seek to invoke the wonders of science instead of its terrors. Together let us explore the stars, conquer the deserts, eradicate disease, tap the ocean depths, and encourage the arts and commerce.

Let both sides unite to heed in all corners of the earth the command of Isaiah — to "undo the heavy burdens -. and to let the oppressed go free."

And if a beachhead of cooperation may push back the jungle of suspicion, let both sides join in creating a new endeavour, not a new balance of power, but a new world of law, where the strong are just and the weak secure and the peace preserved.

All this will not be finished in the first 100 days. Nor will it be finished in the first 1,000 days, nor in the life of this Administration, nor even perhaps in our lifetime on this planet. But let us begin.

In your hands, my fellow citizens, more than in mine, will rest the final success or failure of our course. Since this country was founded, each generation of Americans has been summoned to give testimony to its national loyalty. The graves of young Americans who answered the call to service surround the globe.

Now the trumpet summons us again — not as a call to bear arms, though arms we need; not as a call to battle, though embattled we are — but a call to bear the burden of a long twilight struggle, year in and year out, "rejoicing in hope, patient in tribulation" — a struggle against the common enemies of man: tyranny, poverty, disease, and war itself.

Can we forge against these enemies a grand and global alliance, North and South, East and West, that can assure a more fruitful life for all mankind? Will you join in that historic effort?

In the long history of the world, only a few generations have been granted the role of defending freedom in its hour of maximum danger. I do not shrink from this responsibility — I welcome it. I do not believe that any of us would exchange places with any other people or any other generation. The energy, the faith, the devotion which we bring to this endeavour will light our country and all who serve it — and the glow from that fire can truly light the world.

And so, my fellow Americans: ask not what your country can do for you — ask what you can do for your country.

My fellow citizens of the world: ask not what America will do for you, but what together we can do for the freedom of man.

Finally, whether you are citizens of America or citizens of the world, ask of us the same high standards of strength and sacrifice which we ask of you. With a good conscience our only sure reward, with history the final judge of our deeds, let us go forth to lead the land we love, asking His blessing and His help, but knowing that here on earth God's work must truly be our own.

I can add....nothing

Title: Re: Less we forget.......
Post by MnSpring on 10/18/19 at 11:33:18

2A39213C392F3F580 wrote:
[b]"Ask Not What Your Country Can Do For You"

John F. Kennedy's Inaugural Address, January 20, 1961

We observe today not a victory of party, but a celebration of freedom — symbolizing an end, as well as a beginning — signifying renewal, as well as change. For I have sworn before you and Almighty God the same solemn oath our forebears prescribed nearly a century and three quarters ago.

The world is very different now. For man holds in his mortal hands the power to abolish all forms of human poverty and all forms of human life. And yet the same revolutionary beliefs for which our forebears fought are still at issue around the globe — the belief that the rights of man come not from the generosity of the state, but from the hand of God.

We dare not forget today that we are the heirs of that first revolution. Let the word go forth from this time and place, to friend and foe alike, that the torch has been passed to a new generation of Americans — born in this century, tempered by war, disciplined by a hard and bitter peace, proud of our ancient heritage — and unwilling to witness or permit the slow undoing of those human rights to which this Nation has always been committed, and to which we are committed today at home and around the world.

Let every nation know, whether it wishes us well or ill, that we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe, in order to assure the survival and the success of liberty.

This much we pledge — and more.

To those old allies whose cultural and spiritual origins we share, we pledge the loyalty of faithful friends. United, there is little we cannot do in a host of cooperative ventures. Divided, there is little we can do — for we dare not meet a powerful challenge at odds and split asunder.

To those new States whom we welcome to the ranks of the free, we pledge our word that one form of colonial control shall not have passed away merely to be replaced by a far more iron tyranny. We shall not always expect to find them supporting our view. But we shall always hope to find them strongly supporting their own freedom — and to remember that, in the past, those who foolishly sought power by riding the back of the tiger ended up inside.

To those peoples in the huts and villages across the globe struggling to break the bonds of mass misery, we pledge our best efforts to help them help themselves, for whatever period is required — not because the Communists may be doing it, not because we seek their votes, but because it is right. If a free society cannot help the many who are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich.

To our sister republics south of our border, we offer a special pledge — to convert our good words into good deeds — in a new alliance for progress — to assist free men and free governments in casting off the chains of poverty. But this peaceful revolution of hope cannot become the prey of hostile powers. Let all our neighbours know that we shall join with them to oppose aggression or subversion anywhere in the Americas. And let every other power know that this Hemisphere intends to remain the master of its own house.

To that world assembly of sovereign states, the United Nations, our last best hope in an age where the instruments of war have far outpaced the instruments of peace, we renew our pledge of support — to prevent it from becoming merely a forum for invective — to strengthen its shield of the new and the weak — and to enlarge the area in which its writ may run.

Finally, to those nations who would make themselves our adversary, we offer not a pledge but a request: that both sides begin anew the quest for peace, before the dark powers of destruction unleashed by science engulf all humanity in planned or accidental self-destruction.

We dare not tempt them with weakness. For only when our arms are sufficient beyond doubt can we be certain beyond doubt that they will never be employed.

But neither can two great and powerful groups of nations take comfort from our present course — both sides overburdened by the cost of modern weapons, both rightly alarmed by the steady spread of the deadly atom, yet both racing to alter that uncertain balance of terror that stays the hand of mankind's final war.

So let us begin anew — remembering on both sides that civility is not a sign of weakness, and sincerity is always subject to proof. Let us never negotiate out of fear. But let us never fear to negotiate.

Let both sides explore what problems unite us instead of belabouring those problems which divide us.

Let both sides, for the first time, formulate serious and precise proposals for the inspection and control of arms — and bring the absolute power to destroy other nations under the absolute control of all nations.

Let both sides seek to invoke the wonders of science instead of its terrors. Together let us explore the stars, conquer the deserts, eradicate disease, tap the ocean depths, and encourage the arts and commerce.

Let both sides unite to heed in all corners of the earth the command of Isaiah — to "undo the heavy burdens -. and to let the oppressed go free."

And if a beachhead of cooperation may push back the jungle of suspicion, let both sides join in creating a new endeavour, not a new balance of power, but a new world of law, where the strong are just and the weak secure and the peace preserved.

All this will not be finished in the first 100 days. Nor will it be finished in the first 1,000 days, nor in the life of this Administration, nor even perhaps in our lifetime on this planet. But let us begin.

In your hands, my fellow citizens, more than in mine, will rest the final success or failure of our course. Since this country was founded, each generation of Americans has been summoned to give testimony to its national loyalty. The graves of young Americans who answered the call to service surround the globe.

Now the trumpet summons us again — not as a call to bear arms, though arms we need; not as a call to battle, though embattled we are — but a call to bear the burden of a long twilight struggle, year in and year out, "rejoicing in hope, patient in tribulation" — a struggle against the common enemies of man: tyranny, poverty, disease, and war itself.

Can we forge against these enemies a grand and global alliance, North and South, East and West, that can assure a more fruitful life for all mankind? Will you join in that historic effort?

In the long history of the world, only a few generations have been granted the role of defending freedom in its hour of maximum danger. I do not shrink from this responsibility — I welcome it. I do not believe that any of us would exchange places with any other people or any other generation. The energy, the faith, the devotion which we bring to this endeavour will light our country and all who serve it — and the glow from that fire can truly light the world.

And so, my fellow Americans: ask not what your country can do for you — ask what you can do for your country.

My fellow citizens of the world: ask not what America will do for you, but what together we can do for the freedom of man.

Finally, whether you are citizens of America or citizens of the world, ask of us the same high standards of strength and sacrifice which we ask of you. With a good conscience our only sure reward, with history the final judge of our deeds, let us go forth to lead the land we love, asking His blessing and His help, but knowing that here on earth God's work must truly be our own.

I can add....nothing
[/b]

"...My fellow citizens of the world:
ask not what America will do for you,
but what together we can do for the freedom of man...."

That is just not the case anymore.
Even other Countries now have their hand out and are saying,
Gimme, Gimme, Gimme !

Title: Re: Less we forget.......
Post by Eegore on 10/18/19 at 12:03:54

Well we can't say the Government is too big and out for our freedoms and also complain that nobody asks what they can do for their "country".

Either the Government is us, or at least those of us that get involved by doing things that affect law, or it's some corrupt entity.

Title: Re: Less we forget.......
Post by raydawg on 10/18/19 at 13:13:56

Eegore.....WE are our brothers keepers, not the goverment, that is what we defaulted to, I believe.... it can't.

And look how many times he reference God, perhaps since we have removed God from the public selector, we have lost that understanding as well?

And once again, we are not allowed to talk about certain things, because of PC doctrine, which by default then, breeds ignorance.

Title: Re: Less we forget.......
Post by MnSpring on 10/18/19 at 13:36:32

0B2B29213C2B4E0 wrote:

and also complain that nobody asks what they can do for their "country".

They most certainly can.
Their is a whole Generation,
and another 1/2 of one coming up that say nothing but:
Gimme Gimme Gimme.
Their is a entire political party of candidates,
all falling over themselves,
to see who can, GIVE away more !

of us that get involved by doing things

I do believe people ARE.
The UL FDS GBS are, ‘doing’, things to get MORE,
Gimme Gimme Gimme.

And the sensible people,
(Moderate DFL’s & GOP’s and Independents)
are, ‘doing', things, teaching, explaining, showing,
‘ya don’t get something for nothing’.

The UL FDS GBS’s, may, win.
(Not Today Though)
Then when they RUN-OUT of others peoples money they will say:
‘Holy $hit’

Title: Re: Less we forget.......
Post by Eegore on 10/18/19 at 14:06:56

"Eegore.....WE are our brothers keepers, not the goverment, that is what we defaulted to, I believe.... it can't."

I was applying the discussion to the Government since the quoted information is from a US President.

"And look how many times he reference God, perhaps since we have removed God from the public selector, we have lost that understanding as well?"

I don't think so but I also don't think religion is a requirement for any specific type of human action or reaction.

"And once again, we are not allowed to talk about certain things, because of PC doctrine, which by default then, breeds ignorance."

What things?

Title: Re: Less we forget.......
Post by raydawg on 10/18/19 at 15:15:28

I don't think so but I also don't think religion is a requirement for any specific type of human action or reaction.

I don't know any if religion will work if its forced......
However, to remove any, lets call it a tool from our societal toolbox, that assist folks in living a life that is productiveness, useful, peaceful, etc, because some find that tool useless to them is what, a good thing, a fair thing, a......?????

How does that help?

Title: Re: Less we forget.......
Post by Eegore on 10/18/19 at 19:49:02

"However, to remove any, lets call it a tool from our societal toolbox, that assist folks in living a life that is productiveness, useful, peaceful, etc, because some find that tool useless to them is what, a good thing, a fair thing, a......?????"

Your question assumes the tool assists folks only in living a life that is productive, useful, peaceful etc.

If it is because "some find the tool useless" then I would say it's not a good thing or a fair thing.

This is only if the tool is productive, useful, peaceful etc. My question would be is that same tool ineffective, potentially violent etc. I would say religion can be both, just like a Computer but to say specifically God do we mean Christian/Catholic and similar faiths?

For instance if that same tool was a Computer it can be both useful and harmful, but isn't there a distinguishable difference between allowing one to use a Computer at school and allowing one incorporate God? I may be wrong but I am not aware of any Government agency that does not allow one to incorporate personal religion in one's work, but one can not incorporate their personal religion into another person's work.

Title: Re: Less we forget.......
Post by raydawg on 10/19/19 at 08:07:59

HUH.... :-?

Never mind Eegore, go ahead and go to the party with Web.....

Title: Re: Less we forget.......
Post by raydawg on 10/19/19 at 15:25:07

Gee....I guess Kennedy wasn't a real democrat.....????

Awful quite, no response from the libs....

Ya know just cuz some poor fool goes on a rampage, and kills in the name of God, I don't blame God, or abandon my faith, on what another person does....

Guess I just don't understand today's so called democrat....????

Not sure they do either, or can explain it :o

Title: Re: Less we forget.......
Post by Serowbot on 10/19/19 at 16:14:31

You talk like Christianity is banned or something.
I hear Jesus spouted by politicians all the time.
How many atheist's can you name in Congress?

The problem is,.. the Constitution calls for a separation of church and state.
The purpose, I believe, was to allow freedom of thought and expression.
We don't all have to believe the same things.
We just need to treat each other fairly and with respect.
We don't need to impose our arbitrary religious beliefs on others.

As far as this tools in toolbox analogy,... the founders went to extremes to leave this 'tool" out of the box.
I imagine because this tool is used politically more often for harm than good.
Keep God in your heart, but leave him out of politics.
Your God can be your guide.
He doesn't have to be mine.

Title: Re: Less we forget.......
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 10/19/19 at 16:22:41

The problem is,.. the Constitution calls for a separation of church and state.

I hear that..
My constitution doesn't say That..
If you'd explain what you're saying
Then I'd be able to respond.

Here's a question or two

Can a kid talk about the bible at school?
Can he have a bible discussion with any willing participants at school?
Hand out Christmas cards?

I just want a grasp of what
Separation looks like..

Title: Re: Less we forget.......
Post by Serowbot on 10/19/19 at 16:51:32

Now see,.. that just sounds like, I'm so put upon, Christian whining...
Don't ask me about what's allowed or not in schools.
I don't make the rules.
I suppose they can talk Jesus if the want on the playground with friends or whatnot,.. but teacher should stay away from the topic.
Why would any kid want to waste recess talkin' Jesus?
They're supposed to be burning off that kid energy...
Nobody at my school ever wanted to talk religion.
I remember one girl sat out the pledge because she was Jewish,.. all I thought was, "That weird"... but other than that she was just the same as all of us.
And most kids, I assume were Christian , but never talked about it either.
I didn't have any particular belief, and nobody cared.
I think that's best.
Kids should be kids... Play, have fun... not sermonizing and judging those that have parents telling them different.

Plenty of time for that when they grow up and buy a Savage.... ;D

Title: Re: Less we forget.......
Post by Eegore on 10/19/19 at 18:53:15

"Can a kid talk about the bible at school?
Can he have a bible discussion with any willing participants at school?
Hand out Christmas cards?"

Yes.
Yes.
Depends on school policy, some allow it, some do not allow paper cards anymore since they are pretty antiquated, some do not allow paper cards with any, not just Christmas, but any religious specific content.

Title: Re: Less we forget.......
Post by Eegore on 10/19/19 at 18:54:41

"HUH.... Huh

Never mind Eegore, go ahead and go to the party with Web..... "

I was trying to answer your questions. I have of my own.

Title: Re: Less we forget.......
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 10/19/19 at 19:46:48

I guess I didn't ask correctly.

Define separation of church and state.

Title: Re: Less we forget.......
Post by raydawg on 10/19/19 at 20:28:19

6E4E4C44594E2B0 wrote:

"HUH.... Huh

Never mind Eegore, go ahead and go to the party with Web..... "

I was trying to answer your questions. I have of my own.

a computer......????

Maybe if you used a tool like a self help book, etc.....

Title: Re: Less we forget.......
Post by raydawg on 10/19/19 at 20:36:17

(Copied)

Unlike many places in the world, our government is not prohibited from referencing or accommodating religion, nor is the government compelled to scrub all religious references from the public square.

Rather, the First Amendment ensures both that the government does not show preference to a certain religion, and that the government does not take away an individual’s ability to exercise religion.

In other words, the church should not rule over the state, and the state cannot rule over the church. Religion is too important to be a government program or a political pageant.

Thankfully, the Courts have affirmed this time and time again.

Can I get a AMEN ;D ;D ;D

Title: Re: Less we forget.......
Post by Eegore on 10/19/19 at 20:42:24

"Define separation of church and state."

Well the argument that the words "separation of church and state" not being in the Constitution is correct but it essentially stops there unless the argument is exclusively about only the words and not how the Constitution is applied. That's another discussion going way back to Roger Williams in 1664.

The phrasing in the Constitution means the same thing, just using different words:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof

The state can not require any person, institution etc. to practice a specific type of religion. It also can not prohibit the practice of religion, within reason, for instance sacrificing humans and animals, or creating a religion that allows adults to rape or murder children etc.

Government funding can not be used to teach or educate a specific religion. Publicly held offices can not require a specific religion. Funding medical centers that refuse procedures based off of religion. Government employment that allows for non-religious exemptions but does not allow for religious exemptions.

There is also Article 6:

No religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States.

This whole thing in public schools has been clarified more in Engal v Vitale.

Also 403 U.S. 602, 612-13 further exemplifies the process.

505 U.S. 577 covers coercion.

492 U.S. 573 covers endorsement.

Title: Re: Less we forget.......
Post by raydawg on 10/19/19 at 21:06:27

It also can not prohibit the practice of religion, within reason, for instance sacrificing humans

Boy howdy...it ain't religions that condone and practice that.... ::)

Title: Re: Less we forget.......
Post by Eegore on 10/19/19 at 21:08:07

"a computer......????

Maybe if you used a tool like a self help book, etc....."

Yes a computer. As in a "tool". You used the term:

"lets call it a tool from our societal toolbox"

Isn't there a significant difference between a job or public school requiring someone to use a tool, like a computer versus a tool like the bible?

Besides nobody is removing the societal tool of religion from anyone, they are just saying you can't make someone else use it too.

Title: Re: Less we forget.......
Post by Eegore on 10/19/19 at 21:14:41

"Boy howdy...it ain't religions that condone and practice that."

Incorrect. A number of religions have historically sacrificed animals, and even humans as part of their practiced activities to appease their God(s).

I am of course using a neutral position of the term "religion" and "worship" instead of a preferential one:

Religion:

- The belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods

- A particular system of faith and worship.

Worship:

- the feeling or expression of reverence and adoration for a deity.

- the acts or rites that make up a formal expression of reverence for a deity - a religious ceremony or ceremonies.

Acts or rites being that action of sacrifice.

Title: Re: Less we forget.......
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 10/20/19 at 14:06:16

6B4B49415C4B2E0 wrote:

And yet, schools have squashed children who were trying to hand out Christmas cards..

Supreme court would not have had to overturn it
Were it not so.

Title: Re: Less we forget.......
Post by Serowbot on 10/20/19 at 14:30:10

Will you treat all religions equally?...
Should children be allowed to recite the Quran in schools?...
Should teachers be allowed to teach it?

Title: Re: Less we forget.......
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 10/20/19 at 16:45:53

Let's iron this out first..
Or are you determined to stand on
Christianity has not been shoved out?

Title: Re: Less we forget.......
Post by raydawg on 10/20/19 at 20:10:56

5741564B53464B50240 wrote:

Will you treat all religions equally?...
Should children be allowed to recite the Quran in schools?...
Should teachers be allowed to teach it?

Will you treat chicken the same....????

https://www.thecollegefix.com/blocked-from-some-schools-chick-fil-a-still-thrives-on-campuses-across-the-country/

Title: Re: Less we forget.......
Post by Eegore on 10/20/19 at 20:57:22

"And yet, schools have squashed children who were trying to hand out Christmas cards..

Supreme court would not have had to overturn it
Were it not so."

Can you reference what you are talking about? What Supreme Court ruling?

Also was it exclusively Christmas Cards, or all religious cards?

Title: Re: Less we forget.......
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 10/20/19 at 22:12:06

No.

Title: Re: Less we forget.......
Post by Eegore on 10/20/19 at 22:26:30

As far as I know the US Supreme Court has never made a ruling regarding Christmas in the public education system. What did they overturn?

Title: Re: Less we forget.......
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 10/21/19 at 03:07:44

I'm not looking it up again.
It's not important enough to me.

Title: Re: Less we forget.......
Post by WebsterMark on 10/21/19 at 05:05:31

You can legislate religion out of the government but you can't legislate religion out of legislators. If someone's religious beliefs are central to their character, its going to come out in their proposals and responses to other's proposals.

But the positive influence Christianity has had on the nation is undeniable. Its also undeniable the trend that people, as a whole, are moving away from historical religious practices. That too will make its way into legislators. If that hurts the nation is up for debate. I say it already has and will continue to.

Title: Re: Less we forget.......
Post by raydawg on 10/21/19 at 05:54:54

Its has Mark, however, the "church" itself shares the brunt of this blame....

Just simply put, when the divorce rate of those who identify as a christian is pretty much the same as those who do not.....

When you break apart the family, you break apart so much Mark, the rippling effect is huge, not to even touch about hypocrisy and its false witness, the damage that causes.....

Repair always starts with self, not at pointing out fault in others, and as a whole, I believe this age of mega churches, super star preachers, etc, has caused us to wander, just like so many times in the O.T.

I too, stand guilty......every day. :-[

Title: Re: Less we forget.......
Post by Mavigogun on 10/21/19 at 06:04:36

734146575041566945564F240 wrote:

But the positive influence Christianity has had on the nation is undeniable. Its also undeniable the trend that people, as a whole, are moving away from historical religious practices. That too will make its way into legislators. If that hurts the nation is up for debate. I say it already has and will continue to.

Christians love to believe this. Slavery. Regarding of women as chattel. Abuse of animals and the natural world. Denial of our central role in the climate catastrophe. Persecution of neighbors for their sex. A brief sampling of a very few of the horrors delivered to us via Christiandom. The only thing “undeniable” here is prejudice.

In one thread, a view of the world as ‘better than ever’ was promoted- during a time with an ever-lowering portion adhering to Christianity. Correlation ain’t causation - and anything can be rationalized. A sampling of occupants of our prison systems shows a proportionately lower representation of atheists than Christians- demonstrative only that the claimed clarity does not exist.

Title: Re: Less we forget.......
Post by Eegore on 10/21/19 at 06:19:31

"I'm not looking it up again.
It's not important enough to me."

That's ok, I have some people looking into it already.

There is no Supreme Court Rulings regarding Christmas in schools. Nothing has been overturned, there are no documented, so far, schools that have had legal issues in regards to the handing out of Christmas cards however this will take a week or so to scan every case file on record.

In 2011 some schools banned the handing out of Christmas card during class, as well as handing out all other cards.

This also of course means you are referencing in your argument court rulings that never happened.

Title: Re: Less we forget.......
Post by Eegore on 10/21/19 at 06:21:58

"You can legislate religion out of the government but you can't legislate religion out of legislators. If someone's religious beliefs are central to their character, its going to come out in their proposals and responses to other's proposals."

Do you know of legislation that has taken religion out of government? I've always been under the impression that our Constitution in Article 6 has prohibited any religious requirement to begin with.

Title: Re: Less we forget.......
Post by WebsterMark on 10/21/19 at 06:41:50

6444464E5344210 wrote:

Again with the Captain Obvious....! Seriously dude, we've got to get a drink sometime.....

My point is Representatives bring their life experiences with them. A doctor brings a passion for healthcare, a Vet brings a passion for patriotism, a Christian brings a passion for service. Those manifest themselves in their legislative agenda. That's all I'm saying. There's a way for Christianity and valuable attributes from all religions to make their way into the business of the nation.

Title: Re: Less we forget.......
Post by Eegore on 10/21/19 at 07:16:05

"Again with the Captain Obvious....! Seriously dude, we've got to get a drink sometime....."

I don't consume alcohol.

I was asking since it must not be that obvious to everyone. In this thread there is claims that the Supreme Court has overturned rulings regarding religious practice in public schools regarding Christmas cards and similar. Nobody I know can find information about this and we have full records to every Supreme Court case available in a database.

Maybe, since so many people bring up the "laws changing" to eliminate Christianity etc. that there is somewhere a law or legislation. It's just that nobody I have met thus far can reference one.

Title: Re: Less we forget.......
Post by T And T Garage on 10/21/19 at 20:20:32

1E3E3C34293E5B0 wrote:

Hey jog......

http://media1.giphy.com/media/1hBpHdYhBykSBSxIVK/giphy.gif