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/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Politics, Religion (Tall Table) >> Red Flag ! /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1569110766 Message started by MnSpring on 09/21/19 at 17:06:06 |
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Title: Red Flag ! Post by MnSpring on 09/21/19 at 17:06:06 This is what someone else said, Yet it IS, what 'Red' laws can most likely become. This IS the way it will happen. It already has in a few states... It’s a Sunday night and your family has all gone to bed. You let the dogs back in and lock the deadbolt like you do every night. All the lights are off now except a couple of night lights scattered throughout the house leaving that dim glow throughout your home. It’s bedtime and work and school are going to come early in the morning. You crawl in bed, kiss your wife and drift off to sleep being thankful for the air conditioning that allows you to pull that heavy quilt up over your shoulder despite the fact it’s still 85 degrees outside. A few hours pass... 0200 Monday morning and your wife taps your leg and says, “baby I heard something outside”. As you sit up in bed you hear the dog growling in the living room and you know something isn’t right. You grab that trusty 'ol 870 and head into the living room. Your wife grabs her 9mm and heads down the hall to the kids rooms just like you have rehearsed. “Good boy” you say as you enter the living room, trying to calm both the dog and your wife just as splinters fly across the room and the front door flies open. “Oh nuts!” As you shoulder your weapon and send a load of 00 Buck across your living room and see the perpetrator fall in a heap. Before the “thank God” can even run across your brain, you see a second man coming in the door and you fire again. This time you hear the pop of your wife’s 9mm as she has joined in the fight. It has to be those darn meth heads from down in town! Just then you are consumed by a wall of bullets as you see multiple muzzle flashes from just outside the door and you realize something isn’t right. You turn to yell at your wife to “get down” just in time to see her take a load of buckshot to the face and her brain matter splatter the wall behind her. You feel the burning as 5.56 rounds riddle your body. One clips your spine as you’re scrambling away and paralyzes your lower body. The last thing you see before you bleed out is a SWAT guy from your local PD holding your teenage daughter on the floor with a knee in her back as she screams and cry’s because she just watched her parents being murdered. Why did this happen? You’re no criminal. You’re a Conservative and an honest family man. Your wife is a school teacher and your daughters are on honor roll. Why did this happen? Well two days ago, you and your wife went down to welcome the new neighbors to the community. Your wife made them some of her “world famous” cookies and you invited them to church on Sunday. Later that afternoon, you got a friend request on Facebook from your new neighbor, which you gladly accepted. They seemed a little odd, but in the few minutes you talked they were pleasant enough. The next day while you and your family sat in church, your new neighbor scrolled through your Facebook profile. He saw that “Trump 2020” post and got infuriated because he’s a staunch liberal and he hates your kind. The next thing he sees are the hunting pictures you took last fall when your daughter bagged her first buck. Now he’s seething with fury because he is wholeheartedly against the “slaughter of innocent animals”. Next he sees your post from the last range day with your buddy and sees those scary black assault weapons on the table and that does it! He has to do something about the racist, right wing extremist, domestic terrorist living next door. He picks up the phone, calls the local Sheriffs Office and reports you as a threat under the new Red Flag law. The Sheriffs Office follows their SOP’s and conducts a no knock warrant because you have now been denied due process and you are considered guilty until proven innocent. Now you, your lovely wife and two deputies have been killed for nothing. Your daughter will have absolute hell for the rest of her life. She will never be that successful person you dreamed for her to be because of the mental tragedy caused from seeing her parents murdered. The local news paper will report that you were killed after firing-on, and killing, two deputies and that “over a thousand rounds of ammo and 22 guns were confiscated from your residence”. Oh... those two deputies were just following orders. They left behind families as well and had served their community for over a decade. They didn’t know you were a stand-up guy with a great family. They weren’t allowed time to investigate things under due process. They were told you had threatened your neighbor and were out in the street waving an AR15 around. This is the reality of Red Flag gun laws. Innocent people will lose their lives, including police serving these unconstitutional no-knock warrants. Red Flag laws will be used for petty and vengeful reasons without merit by gun hating liberals who believe if you own guns, that it somehow automatically makes you a threat to society and therefore you are a right wing extremist domestic terrorist who MUST be stopped and neutralized at all costs (for the safety of others). Do not forget that ALL gun laws are an infringement of your rights! |
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Title: Re: Red Flag ! Post by Eegore on 09/21/19 at 21:24:36 "He picks up the phone, calls the local Sheriffs Office and reports you as a threat under the new Red Flag law. The Sheriffs Office follows their SOP’s and conducts a no knock warrant because you have now been denied due process and you are considered guilty until proven innocent." Not how Red Flag laws work. Provide a reference of a Red Flag Law that allows no knock warrants based off of citizen complaint. Anyone can make up stories with zero reference to actual due process and pretend its real. "Do not forget that ALL gun laws are an infringement of your rights!" So all Americans can own any gun ever made an use them to hunt? I can unload fully automatic Browning 50 cal to hunt elk? |
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Title: Re: Red Flag ! Post by WebsterMark on 09/22/19 at 04:57:46 Oh? Didn't a couple online video gamers get into an argument and one of them called 9/11 claiming the other had a gun and hostages or something like that and SWAT descended on that guys house with no warning and he ended up dead. The gamer caller got convicted and sent to jail. Red flag laws will be abused like hell. Somebody like TT would flag me or Mn in a heartbeat. School administrators, like the ones who thought a lunatic like the Parkland High School killer needed to be in a regular school but kick a student out of class for wearing a red Trump hat, are the ones who get to make decisions. Seriously? |
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Title: Re: Red Flag ! Post by Eegore on 09/22/19 at 09:55:44 "Oh? Didn't a couple online video gamers get into an argument and one of them called 9/11 claiming the other had a gun and hostages or something like that and SWAT descended on that guys house with no warning and he ended up dead. The gamer caller got convicted and sent to jail." Its called "Swatting" and its been around since phones were invented. It's not a "no knock" warrant based off Red Flag law. "kick a student out of class for wearing a red Trump hat, are the ones who get to make decisions. Seriously? " Only if you are inactive in your local legislation. As I have said before, we actively fight firearm legislation where I live, not all of it, some gun laws like prohibiting teenagers from owning full autos is reasonable, hunting laws are reasonable, no shooting in city limits is reasonable, but some are not. The difference is we don't imagine scenarios with inaccurate information and try to claim that's a good enough argument to mean anything in court. Red Flag can be abused, like all law, but at a minimum be accurate with your story-telling. |
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Title: Re: Red Flag ! Post by T And T Garage on 09/22/19 at 10:02:05 576562737465724D61726B000 wrote:
Ha....if only. |
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Title: Re: Red Flag ! Post by justin_o_guy2 on 09/22/19 at 11:27:30 By golly he sure told you. Nothing like If only To completely refute the point.. |
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Title: Re: Red Flag ! Post by T And T Garage on 09/22/19 at 12:40:53 7C6365627F7849794971636F24160 wrote:
The OP ranks right up there with Obama's guaranteed imposing sharia law. LOL But hey, you right wingers are fun to rile up. It's so easy! Thanks jog! ;D |
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Title: Re: Red Flag ! Post by justin_o_guy2 on 09/22/19 at 20:21:12 Red flag laws will be abused like hell. You betchyerass they will be. And law abiding men who get surprised may get shot.. Think some lefty busybody neighbor won't call in a I've Seen him with a Gun He scares me He hollers at the kids to get off his lawn.. Yeah,lefties are gonna screw people.. |
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Title: Re: Red Flag ! Post by WebsterMark on 09/23/19 at 04:30:19 7757555D4057320 wrote:
So you want me to go through the news and post numerous incidents where people used laws in their favor to terrorize their enemies which will prompt you to respond with the obvious response that a few bad people do bad things? No thanks. But the fact remains it happens and it will happen more. We have enough laws on the books. The police visited the Parkland High School shooter dozens of times but "educated" school administrators kept him in public schools. I've read that was based on directives from Obama's Dept of Education. I don't know if that's true or not but regardless, someone should have said no. But because they didn't, leftist respond with more laws that will ultimately accomplish nothing. |
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Title: Re: Red Flag ! Post by Eegore on 09/23/19 at 05:40:22 "So you want me to go through the news and post numerous incidents where people used laws in their favor to terrorize their enemies which will prompt you to respond with the obvious response that a few bad people do bad things?" No. The comparison is to actual law and "no knock" warrants being legally issued through citizen complaint alone. I'd prefer case law, not "news" reports. You made a point in another thread regarding how inaccurate the media is so why use it? |
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Title: Re: Red Flag ! Post by T And T Garage on 09/23/19 at 06:21:37 746B6D6A7770417141796B672C1E0 wrote:
LOL, yeah, get scared and peddle fear! War on Christmas! Sharia law! Pizzagate! etc., etc..... |
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Title: Re: Red Flag ! Post by MnSpring on 09/23/19 at 08:18:21 Red flag laws. Another attempt at, ‘Back Door”, gun Confiscation ! Again, laws are, ‘In Place’, to stop crazies. They just are Not Followed. The fact shown in the very public shootings of people, of people NOT doing the Job, Not following the law, Covering Up their personal azz. (Also the 'abuse' of) Can be seen by Ray Charles. (Gee what do you call the fact that a former POTUS, ’sig’ed’ the IRS on his enemies) Yet when the ‘Ban Guns’ Cry got waylaid, by a DFI UL FDS Socialist who publicly said: He WILL, Confiscate GUNS. The Cry is now, ‘Red Laws’. Which have, and will continue to be abused. Just another, ‘Back Door’ Gun Ban/Control. Absolutely nothing to do with, saving lives. 677976777A677C61130 wrote:
Gee Wally, how come tt always says 'fear' when someone is telling the truth ! Gee Wally, how come, it used to be, 'Merry Christmas', then for 8 years it was, 'Happy Holidays', and now it's back to, 'Merry Christmas' ? Gee Wally how come before 2008, very few even heard about 'Sharia law'. Then for 8 years, a group of people said that should be adopted, even though it conflicted in many cases with the current USA Law. And now, only the very fringe, UL, FDS, Socialists are saying that. |
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Title: Re: Red Flag ! Post by MnSpring on 09/23/19 at 11:52:49 Handgun Control, Inc. (now Brady) openly called for a ban on the civilian possession of handguns. NCCH (National Council to Control Handguns) Chairman Pete Shields said In a 1976 interview with the New Yorker: "I’m convinced that we have to have federal legislation to build on. We’re going to have to take one step at a time, and the first step is necessarily—given the political realities—going to be very modest… So then we’ll have to start working again to strengthen that law and then again to strengthen the next law, and maybe again and again. Right now, though, we’d be satisfied not with half a loaf but with a slice. Our ultimate goal—total control of handguns in the United States—is going to take time.” September 19th, Wisconsin Governor Tony Evers, Attorney General Josh Kaul, Representative Melissa Sargent (D-48), and Senator Lena Taylor (D-4) held a press conference calling on the Legislature to violate the Second Amendment by: 1) allowing confiscation of firearms without due process; and 2) criminalizing private transfers. “Extreme Risk Protection Order” laws—the kind of scheme that Gov. Evers would like to impose—seek to confiscate firearms while suspending your Second Amendment rights. This is why lawful gun owners who would otherwise defend themselves are often excluded from the very hearings where the gun-grab is ordered. If Gov. Evers gets his way, every Wisconsin citizen would be vulnerable to such orders, which do not rest upon a criminal conviction or adjudication of dangerously mental illness. Under Gov. Evers’ approach, your Second Amendment rights would be usurped by uncorroborated third party allegations. Existing studies of these laws—even when conducted by anti-gun researchers—confirm that such laws are ineffective at reducing homicides or suicides. New York City, is the hardest place to get a handgun license. The only feasible choice is a “premises license.” That license allows a person to keep a handgun in his or her home or place of business. Even then, the process takes many months, multiple trips to police headquarters, and hundreds of dollars in mandatory fees. Licensing officials also have broad discretion to deny licenses, even when the applicant has no criminal convictions. Tell me again how, ‘red’ laws will work ? Oh Wait, Bot/tt, 'say' they have a gun. So none of this is happening ! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D |
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Title: Re: Red Flag ! Post by T And T Garage on 09/23/19 at 13:45:08 2C0F321113080F06610 wrote:
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Title: Re: Red Flag ! Post by Eegore on 09/23/19 at 14:36:29 "Gee Wally, how come, it used to be, 'Merry Christmas', then for 8 years it was, 'Happy Holidays', and now it's back to, 'Merry Christmas' ? " Anecdotal at best. No law governs this, try again. "Gee Wally how come before 2008, very few even heard about 'Sharia law'. Then for 8 years, a group of people said that should be adopted, even though it conflicted in many cases with the current USA Law. And now, only the very fringe, UL, FDS, Socialists are saying that." Reference or story time? You decide! |
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Title: Re: Red Flag ! Post by Serowbot on 09/23/19 at 14:44:39 The very frimge that's saying that,.. is Fox News, and right-wing pundits... It's an imaginary issue, meant to instill fear and drama. There is no realistic movement in this direction. Right Wing fear motivation. |
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Title: Re: Red Flag ! Post by T And T Garage on 09/23/19 at 15:24:21 6A4A48405D4A2F0 wrote:
+100 |
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Title: Re: Red Flag ! Post by T And T Garage on 09/23/19 at 15:24:30 3325322F37222F34400 wrote:
+100 |
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Title: Re: Red Flag ! Post by justin_o_guy2 on 09/23/19 at 19:20:09 You people make me sick. https://dailypoliticalnewswire.com/red-flag-police-kill-man-who-refused-to-surrender-gun/?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=email You were saying? https://dailypoliticalnewswire.com/red-flag-police-kill-man-who-refused-to-surrender-gun/?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=email |
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Title: Re: Red Flag ! Post by Eegore on 09/23/19 at 19:50:32 "Man answers door at 5:17am armed with a handgun, refuses to drop it." Yeah sounds like a "No knock" warrant to me. He answers the door for no reason because nobody knocked. This happens, unfortunately, in all aspects of law enforcement. SWAT raids wrong house, Off-Duty officer enters wrong apartment etc. Don't pretend people that are in support of having meth-houses removed from their neighborhoods are all pro-cop-kills-innocent-person and want the police killing everyone in town that has a gun. |
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Title: Re: Red Flag ! Post by justin_o_guy2 on 09/23/19 at 20:06:42 How do you manage to get things so completely twisted?? fficials said Willis answered the door while holding a handgun. Willis then placed the gun next to the door. When officers began to serve him the order, Willis became irate and grabbed his gun. It's not hard to get right. |
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Title: Re: Red Flag ! Post by Eegore on 09/23/19 at 20:35:27 Ok so if you read the whole article and associated references you get my quote, but we can go with yours and get the same result: "When officers began to serve him the order, Willis became irate and grabbed his gun." Does this seem like a reasonable response? If you are facing multiple armed people, police or street thugs, would it make sense to try to grab your gun? When exactly in police presence is it reasonable to grab your gun after being told not to? This is still not an example of a "No Knock" warrant. It is not an example of people saying that law enforcement should be able to kill people for having guns. |
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Title: Re: Red Flag ! Post by justin_o_guy2 on 09/24/19 at 06:33:04 Smart? Or Reasonable? Man was defending his rights. Was it reasonable for the Indian to choose war and death over giving up freedom and living on a reservation where they were Promised a better life? Took me years to understand why they chose war. And let's not lose sight of the fact that someone showed up EARLY in the morning to TAKE, by force, what a man owns, who had not a clue about it, This isn't about how stupid or whatever HE was. It's a dead man, because of a law that allows this approach. Bad law, More dead to follow. |
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Title: Re: Red Flag ! Post by Eegore on 09/24/19 at 07:50:42 "It's a dead man, because of a law that allows this approach. Bad law, More dead to follow." I agree. Just to be clear: I agree with you. I don't think anything will be done as long as we say this is a "no knock" warrant that violated his rights. Red Law can be abused, but given their increasing support, counter arguments need to be accurate if they plan to make them into law. |
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Title: Re: Red Flag ! Post by MnSpring on 09/24/19 at 09:05:14 7050525A4750350 wrote:
In that situation, (which I have never been in), The FIRST thing that would come to mind, is can I grab my gun, and shoot, before they shoot me ? I would not be assessing/deciding if they are friend or foe. That decision would have already been made, do to the other factors leading up to that confrontation. When exactly in police presence is it reasonable to grab your gun after being told not to? None, IF it is the Police. Again I was not there. YET, lack of info is disturbing. And the lack of information, looks like, 'something', is not being told. Questions not answered: What was said, between the, 'Willis then placed the gun next to the door' 'Willis became irate and grabbed his gun' The only thing stated was: 'When officers began to serve him the order' What was, 'said' could be a very key factor in Willis's decision. Who called in the, red flag law ? Who/how was that, red flag law, verified. The " Extreme Risk Protective Order (AKA Red Flag Law) " was served at, 5:17 in the morning. (Are you up, awake, totally functioning at 5:17 in the morning ?) It most certainty could be that Willis was, a danger to himself and others. It most certainty could be that Willis should have have firearms removed, because it was verified, he was, a danger to himself and others. (We will never know that) Reminds me a LOT of Waco Texas ! Koresh, COULD have been taken at any time, by himself and totally UN-armed. Yet the FBI, State Police, and the U.S. military, CHOSE to KILL people in that complex, by their by their Testosterone Fueled 'leader', J. Reno. Before that, 'Ruby Ridge'. And before that, 'Witch HUNTS' at Salem. 'Red Laws', will be VERY poorly written, written by 'Gun Grabbers', enforced by Gun Grabbers, or Testosterone bulging people. And will have no safety control's or verification methods. The ability to determine, who may be a threat, Already Exists, YET IT IS IGNORED, as the case of several, 'mass' shootings. So in a nut shell, 'red laws', are just ANOTHER, back door 'Gun Grab'. And they have gained traction because, one DFI said: 'Hell Yea ...' |
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Title: Re: Red Flag ! Post by Eegore on 09/24/19 at 09:17:44 "The FIRST thing that would come to mind, is can I grab my gun, and shoot, before they shoot me ?" No. Multiple armed assailants in arm's reach with guns will always beat one person unarmed trying to grab a gun and shoot two. 'Red Laws', will be VERY poorly written, written by 'Gun Grabbers', enforced by Gun Grabbers, or Testosterone bulging people. And will have no safety control's or verification methods. This is the problem. You can write those laws too, but you have to go out and do it. You have to go engage your legal system and enact change, or fund those that can. The NRA will not be enough anymore. And those arguments for change have to be accurate, or people will point out the inaccuracies you try to defend through semantics while the opposing more accurate information becomes law. I've done it in my state. I've done it for national policy on medical centers. I didn't get it done with my @ss on the couch complaining. |
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Title: Re: Red Flag ! Post by MnSpring on 09/24/19 at 10:45:50 4C6C6E667B6C090 wrote:
Just the same as a person with a knife in their hand, at 21 feet, they, WILL, Stab you, (Your gun is holstered), before you can shoot them. (Unless you are very good, and are one of the top 2-4% can 'draw' very fast) I, and just about everyone who owns a firm knows that. (Well except tt & Bot, who, 'Say', they own a firearm LOL). Rephrase. 'I have determined (They are foe, by various methods), I WILL get shot, from someone who already HAS a gun in their hand. If I do nothing, I will be shot and KILLED. If I reach for my gun, and do whatever defensive maneuvers I know, and shoot them. I may have a chance of surviving their shooting me. Which is better than standing their and being KILLED while doing nothing'. |
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Title: Re: Red Flag ! Post by justin_o_guy2 on 09/24/19 at 14:45:01 Aaaaand we're off in the weeds. This law is wrong. More will die. Debate the Reasonableness of the dead. If they weren't put in that position, which is Relinquish your weapons Without a hearing Without a jury Without due process WTF? If any real man would fight, that is exactly when. So, Bad law More dead to follow. You can flap your gums forever about how the Wronged citizen SHOULD have dealt with the situation. Try discussing how wrong it is to put someone in that situation. Then you're a constitutional American. |
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Title: Re: Red Flag ! Post by verslagen1 on 09/24/19 at 14:55:49 425D5B5C41467747774F5D511A280 wrote:
It depends if they (cops) are clever or not. at 5am in the morning, there's going to be a fuss. Get a letter, you've just won... whatever, come downtown to pick it up. You have to go to a 'no gun' zone. You can surrender your weapons or wait for your hearing. |
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Title: Re: Red Flag ! Post by justin_o_guy2 on 09/24/19 at 14:58:23 Yes, so many ways to avoid conflict. And somehow the cops seem to be too stupid to do it. It's almost as if they want it. |
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Title: Re: Red Flag ! Post by T And T Garage on 09/24/19 at 15:21:33 1535373F2235500 wrote:
BOOM! Logic! |
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Title: Re: Red Flag ! Post by justin_o_guy2 on 09/24/19 at 15:51:32 Boom, logic! And yet You continue to believe what has been proven false. Boom, Logic. |
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Title: Re: Red Flag ! Post by T And T Garage on 09/24/19 at 15:59:08 7F6066617C7B4A7A4A72606C27150 wrote:
Yeah, whatever there Sandy Hook..... |
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Title: Re: Red Flag ! Post by justin_o_guy2 on 09/25/19 at 12:11:22 I'm wrong once You're never right. Piss off |
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Title: Re: Red Flag ! Post by T And T Garage on 09/25/19 at 12:16:17 081711160B0C3D0D3D05171B50620 wrote:
LOL - "piss off"? That's right up there with "shut up!". Too easy, jog. 47 THOUSAND posts and nothing to say. ;D |
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Title: Re: Red Flag ! Post by justin_o_guy2 on 09/25/19 at 15:01:02 Look at you.. You can't EXPLAIN why you believe. It's unsupportable. So you are trying to make it all about me. Love to watch you squirm.. Go ahead Explain why everyone should be all concerned about the coming end, again. |
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Title: Re: Red Flag ! Post by T And T Garage on 09/25/19 at 15:08:17 716E686F72754474447C6E62291B0 wrote:
Everyone but you should be jog. |
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