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Message started by T And T Garage on 08/13/19 at 06:06:03

Title: Bernie Uncut
Post by T And T Garage on 08/13/19 at 06:06:03

Crazy?

Not even close.

Just plain crazy smart

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2O-iLk1G_ng[/media]

Title: Re: Bernie Uncut
Post by WebsterMark on 08/13/19 at 11:18:59

I am paraphrasing but he said "the function of the current healthcare system is not to provide healthcare but to make money for healthcare is a business".

Yes.

Free market capitalism always delivers the highest quality at the lowest cost. It's only when that system is interrupted do one of those two attributes suffer. Heathcare is no different.

A government run healthcare system would not provide high-quality and it would not be inexpensive. A government run healthcare system in the United States would resemble the VA hospitals. You're fooling yourself if you don't believe that.

I don't know the complete solution to healthcare in United States but I know it's not to duplicate the failures we repeatedly see from government run institutions. On another thread, we're laughing somewhat at the inability of a prison system to, at a bare minimum, keep an inmate alive. This particular inmate might've been one of the highest profile inmates in custody today yet he was able to kill himself.

The FAA is under fire for the Boeing 737 max debacle. Think back on the hundreds if not thousands and thousands of examples of government program failure. We came up with this idea about Social Security and immediately politicians stole all the money that was supposedly in a lockbox to use for other purposes. My God, the list goes on and on and on.....

What in the world makes anyone think that something as complicated as the US healthcare system could somehow be organized and run by unelected bureaucrats appointed by politicians seeking votes?

Title: Re: Bernie Uncut
Post by T And T Garage on 08/13/19 at 11:42:39

013334252233241B37243D560 wrote:

I am paraphrasing but he said "the function of the current healthcare system is not to provide healthcare but to make money for healthcare is a business".

Yes.

You don't see a problem in making money over providing healthcare to people? That's at best, disingenuous - at worst, evil.

Free market capitalism always delivers the highest quality at the lowest cost.

No, it doesn't. Why is insulin (and most every other drug) so much more expensive here than in Canada? There is no control over big pharma. They spend hundreds of millions on lobbying.

It's only when that system is interrupted do one of those two attributes suffer. Heathcare is no different.

Wrong - see above.

A government run healthcare system would not provide high-quality and it would not be inexpensive. A government run healthcare system in the United States would resemble the VA hospitals. You're fooling yourself if you don't believe that.

That's pretty much word for word the narrative that the insurance companies and drug companies are pushing.

You think it's reasonable to assume that all of a sudden, every hospital will somehow disappear? All those doctors, nurses, equipment, etc. will immediately be off limits? No.

Yeah, there are problems in Canada, but no one there is going bankrupt paying for their healthcare. When you supplant the Hippocratic Oath with a ledger, that's a huge problem.

I don't know the complete solution to healthcare in United States but I know it's not to duplicate the failures we repeatedly see from government run institutions. On another thread, we're laughing somewhat at the inability of a prison system to, at a bare minimum, keep an inmate alive. This particular inmate might've been one of the highest profile inmates in custody today yet he was able to kill himself.

The FAA is under fire for the Boeing 737 max debacle. Think back on the hundreds if not thousands and thousands of examples of government program failure. We came up with this idea about Social Security and immediately politicians stole all the money that was supposedly in a lockbox to use for other purposes. My God, the list goes on and on and on.....

What in the world makes anyone think that something as complicated as the US healthcare system could somehow be organized and run by unelected bureaucrats appointed by politicians seeking votes?

The current system does not work. People actually die because they don't have access to healthcare. In the US, for the first time in history, our life expectancy has gone down.

Title: Re: Bernie Uncut
Post by WebsterMark on 08/13/19 at 11:59:11

You don't see a problem in making money over providing healthcare to people? That's at best, disingenuous - at worst, evil.

Not at all. The prosperity we all enjoy today is from business' making profits.

When my son was 1 years old, somehow he got an infection that spread rapidly. We had to rush him to hospital where he was in ICU for a few days being treated with some very high tech equipment. The companies that made that equipment did it for profit. I benefited from it. To this day, I remember that lesson. It was one of the catalyst that turned me from a Democratic voter to a conservative. (the final nail in the coffin was being in management at a Union shop...)

I would never reveal who I am or who I work for, but I absolutely, positively guarantee that you, T and T Garage, have benefited from my companies product. 100% certainty. Yes, we are totally dedicated to quality and providing products that are higher performing than anyone else's because that's the owner's mandate, but we ultimately make money at it. A lot of money. You benefit.

So your equation of either making money or provide healthcare is not correct. Both are done.

Title: Re: Bernie Uncut
Post by WebsterMark on 08/13/19 at 12:00:50

No, it doesn't. Why is insulin (and most every other drug) so much more expensive here than in Canada? There is no control over big pharma. They spend hundreds of millions on lobbying.

It's only when that system is interrupted do one of those two attributes suffer. Heathcare is no different.

Wrong - see above.

Because the economy and wealth of the US subsidizes other markets. Imagine the Canadian/US border disappeared. What would happen to the price of Canadian insulin?

Title: Re: Bernie Uncut
Post by WebsterMark on 08/13/19 at 12:08:16

You think it's reasonable to assume that all of a sudden, every hospital will somehow disappear? All those doctors, nurses, equipment, etc. will immediately be off limits? No.

No, of course not. Some doctors and nurses are angels. But take the profit motive away, and the system begins to change. If you had something seriously wrong with you, you would go to the hospital that had the combination of the best doctors and the best equipment. That takes money. That takes profit.

The current system does not work. People actually die because they don't have access to healthcare. In the US, for the first time in history, our life expectancy has gone down.

I've read life expectancy is down due to drug overdose and suicides. I've also read other nations are facing the same thing. I remember reading quite a while ago so I can't swear this is still true, but because of our high quality healthcare system for newborns, we birth live babies with little chance at survival far more often than other places. From a math point of view, that matters.

Title: Re: Bernie Uncut
Post by T And T Garage on 08/13/19 at 12:27:24

605255444352457A56455C370 wrote:

You don't see a problem in making money over providing healthcare to people? That's at best, disingenuous - at worst, evil.

Not at all. The prosperity we all enjoy today is from business' making profits.

Directly at the cost of this nation's health?

No - not by me. Never.

When my son was 1 years old, somehow he got an infection that spread rapidly. We had to rush him to hospital where he was in ICU for a few days being treated with some very high tech equipment. The companies that made that equipment did it for profit. I benefited from it. To this day, I remember that lesson. It was one of the catalyst that turned me from a Democratic voter to a conservative. (the final nail in the coffin was being in management at a Union shop...)

Well, it's great that you had insurance, isn't it? Had you been a poor person, with no access - do you think the outcome would have been the same?

Really think about that, mark.

I would never reveal who I am or who I work for, but I absolutely, positively guarantee that you, T and T Garage, have benefited from my companies product. 100% certainty. Yes, we are totally dedicated to quality and providing products that are higher performing than anyone else's because that's the owner's mandate, but we ultimately make money at it. A lot of money. You benefit.

Perhaps I do, but that doesn't make it right.

If I sold mass quantities of heroin, and then built community centers with my millions, then all those kids and families using those centers would benefit, right? What about the junkies? What about the gang bangers selling my product and killing innocent people?

See how that works?

The problem with pure capitalism is that it's very selective in who it benefits.

You don't see it because you don't have any exposure to that world of want. I guess you can be thankful in that - as well as those covered under your insurance.

So your equation of either making money or provide healthcare is not correct. Both are done.

No they're not. When profit is your primary concern - providing care can only be second. That's not the country we live in. Imagine if Sir Alexander Fleming or Jonas Salk had that attitude. (yeah, yeah, I've heard the stories about how it wasn't possible to patent the polio vaccine, so don't start - my point is made).

Title: Re: Bernie Uncut
Post by T And T Garage on 08/13/19 at 12:30:30

172522333425320D21322B400 wrote:

Well, that just points out that our system is broken. There's no other reason besides profit that insulin is more expensive in the US.

Title: Re: Bernie Uncut
Post by T And T Garage on 08/13/19 at 12:38:14

6F5D5A4B4C5D4A75594A53380 wrote:

You think it's reasonable to assume that all of a sudden, every hospital will somehow disappear? All those doctors, nurses, equipment, etc. will immediately be off limits? No.

No, of course not. Some doctors and nurses are angels. But take the profit motive away, and the system begins to change. If you had something seriously wrong with you, you would go to the hospital that had the combination of the best doctors and the best equipment. That takes money. That takes profit.

It's not about the attitudes of the doctors and nurses, it's about how the the entire healthcare system currently operates.

To repeat - if profit is your first motive, then providing care can only be second. No ifs, ands or buts.

Obviously the doctors and nurses and administrators would have to be paid the exact same. Even then, we'd still be light years ahead of where we're at today in terms of cost.

The current system does not work. People actually die because they don't have access to healthcare. In the US, for the first time in history, our life expectancy has gone down.

I've read life expectancy is down due to drug overdose and suicides. I've also read other nations are facing the same thing. I remember reading quite a while ago so I can't swear this is still true, but because of our high quality healthcare system for newborns, we birth live babies with little chance at survival far more often than other places. From a math point of view, that matters.

If you went further into Bernie's video, you'd have seen a keen insight to why this is happening.

The disease of despair has a lot of truth to it.

We're living in tough times - not enough people can see that.

Title: Re: Bernie Uncut
Post by WebsterMark on 08/13/19 at 13:03:36

2A343B3A372A312C5E0 wrote:

[quote author=172522333425320D21322B400 link=1565701563/0#4 date=1565722850]No, it doesn't. Why is insulin (and most every other drug) so much more expensive here than in Canada? There is no control over big pharma. They spend hundreds of millions on lobbying.

It's only when that system is interrupted do one of those two attributes suffer. Heathcare is no different.

Wrong - see above.

Because the economy and wealth of the US subsidizes other markets. Imagine the Canadian/US border disappeared. What would happen to the price of Canadian insulin?

Title: Re: Bernie Uncut
Post by WebsterMark on 08/13/19 at 13:05:08

The disease of despair has a lot of truth to it.

We're living in tough times - not enough people can see that.

I'd suggest we are living in very prosperous times which creates its own form of despair. You have to chew on that for a while.

Title: Re: Bernie Uncut
Post by T And T Garage on 08/13/19 at 13:52:28

0A383F2E29382F103C2F365D0 wrote:

[quote author=2A343B3A372A312C5E0 link=1565701563/0#7 date=1565724630][quote author=172522333425320D21322B400 link=1565701563/0#4 date=1565722850]No, it doesn't. Why is insulin (and most every other drug) so much more expensive here than in Canada? There is no control over big pharma. They spend hundreds of millions on lobbying.

It's only when that system is interrupted do one of those two attributes suffer. Heathcare is no different.

Wrong - see above.

Because the economy and wealth of the US subsidizes other markets. Imagine the Canadian/US border disappeared. What would happen to the price of Canadian insulin?

Well, that just points out that our system is broken. There's no other reason besides profit that insulin is more expensive in the US.
[/quote]

1) Its not broken. I just had a terrible accident a few weeks ago. After rush to ER, therapy and drugs, I'm 99% of normal. Not a broken system.

Had you not had insurance, mark, things would have been totally different. For some reason, you continue to ignore that fact.

2) There's no other reason besides profit that the company you work for pays you. [/quote]

Nope. But I don't work in the medical field.

Car salesmen, bar owners, widget salespeople, hair stylists, etc., etc. are not providing life sustaining services.

Huge difference.

Title: Re: Bernie Uncut
Post by T And T Garage on 08/13/19 at 13:55:40

172522333425320D21322B400 wrote:

Suggest all you want. As I said - not enough people see the tough side of things. Be thankful that you're not one of the tens of millions with sh!tty or even non-existent access to healthcare, just to mention one thing.

With the wealth we have in this country, no one should be denied healthcare, a fair wage and shelter.

Title: Re: Bernie Uncut
Post by WebsterMark on 08/13/19 at 14:52:59

1) Its not broken. I just had a terrible accident a few weeks ago. After rush to ER, therapy and drugs, I'm 99% of normal. Not a broken system.

Had you not had insurance, mark, things would have been totally different. For some reason, you continue to ignore that fact.

I'm not ignoring that fact. I'm highlighting that fact. Hospitals don't turn away anyone based on their ability to pay. Is it the same level of care as mine? No. Is my level of care is the same as a mega-rich guy? No. And as you pointed out, there are people who do healthcare for the sake of healthcare and not profit. The angels I referred to before.

2) There's no other reason besides profit that the company you work for pays you.

Nope. But I don't work in the medical field.

Unless you work for the government profit is the only reason. Even not profits rely on funding from profitable people and companies. Even government to a degree relies on prosperity to conduct its business.

Title: Re: Bernie Uncut
Post by WebsterMark on 08/13/19 at 14:57:07

With the wealth we have in this country, no one should be denied healthcare, a fair wage and shelter.

The fact is, if you're an American today without significant physical or mental disabilities and you do not have healthcare, a fair wage and shelter, its your fault for bad choices or your parents fault for not setting you up for success. People that the Book of James would call in his day; orphans and widows.

In those cases, sure we should step in and offer aid, training etc...

Title: Re: Bernie Uncut
Post by T And T Garage on 08/13/19 at 15:03:58

4D7F78696E7F68577B68711A0 wrote:

1) Its not broken. I just had a terrible accident a few weeks ago. After rush to ER, therapy and drugs, I'm 99% of normal. Not a broken system.

Had you not had insurance, mark, things would have been totally different. For some reason, you continue to ignore that fact.

I'm not ignoring that fact. I'm highlighting that fact. Hospitals don't turn away anyone based on their ability to pay. Is it the same level of care as mine? No. Is my level of care is the same as a mega-rich guy? No.
And you see no problem with that? That's sad.
And as you pointed out, there are people who do healthcare for the sake of healthcare and not profit. The angels I referred to before.

2) There's no other reason besides profit that the company you work for pays you.

Nope. But I don't work in the medical field.

Unless you work for the government profit is the only reason. Even not profits rely on funding from profitable people and companies. Even government to a degree relies on prosperity to conduct its business.

What I'm saying is that in the medical field, profit should come in at least second, but not first.

Title: Re: Bernie Uncut
Post by T And T Garage on 08/13/19 at 15:05:20

685A5D4C4B5A4D725E4D543F0 wrote:

With the wealth we have in this country, no one should be denied healthcare, a fair wage and shelter.

The fact is, if you're an American today without significant physical or mental disabilities and you do not have healthcare, a fair wage and shelter, its your fault for bad choices or your parents fault for not setting you up for success. People that the Book of James would call in his day; orphans and widows.

Sad that you only see that side of it. Like I said, be thankful for what you have... I don't think you've ever seen the other side.

In those cases, sure we should step in and offer aid, training etc...

Title: Re: Bernie Uncut
Post by WebsterMark on 08/13/19 at 15:42:40

Sad that you only see that side of it. Like I said, be thankful for what you have... I don't think you've ever seen the other side.
I wold suggest I see both sides, it's you who are only seeng one.

And I've been at the very bottom of that ugly side.

Title: Re: Bernie Uncut
Post by MnSpring on 08/13/19 at 16:19:12

495758595449524F3D0 wrote:

profit should come in at least second, but not first.

Great ! Glad you believe profit should come second.
So send me your Bobber,
It's just, Gimme, Gimme, Gimme, which you approve of.

Title: Re: Bernie Uncut
Post by T And T Garage on 08/13/19 at 18:21:53

74576A494B50575E390 wrote:

[quote author=495758595449524F3D0 link=1565701563/15#15 date=1565733838] profit should come in at least second, but not first.

Great ! Glad you believe profit should come second.
So send me your Bobber,
It's just, Gimme, Gimme, Gimme, which you approve of.[/quote]

LOL - you're funny. And it's typical that you take my quote completely out of context. Obviously, you have no clue.

Nicely done.

Title: Re: Bernie Uncut
Post by T And T Garage on 08/13/19 at 18:23:08

4E7C7B6A6D7C6B54786B72190 wrote:

Somehow I don't think that you did. If you actually did, then it looks like you've lost your empathy.

Either way, it's sad.

Title: Re: Bernie Uncut
Post by WebsterMark on 08/14/19 at 04:30:31

I was.

Your empathy is based on shallow partisanship.

Title: Re: Bernie Uncut
Post by WebsterMark on 08/14/19 at 04:34:31

But back to Crazy Bernie. Maybe he is a genius, I don't know. But I do know he's a hippie who never grew up. He has zero chance. He had an outside chance last time, but whimped out and couldn't/wouldn't stand up to Hillary. Hell, the way Clinton's "friends" mysteriously end up dead, maybe it was self preservation on his part!

Title: Re: Bernie Uncut
Post by T And T Garage on 08/14/19 at 05:38:31

704245545342556A46554C270 wrote:

I was.

Your empathy is based on shallow partisanship.

No, once again, you're wrong.

I feel for those good ol' boys and their kids in KY just as much as I do for the inner city kids on the westside.

Title: Re: Bernie Uncut
Post by T And T Garage on 08/14/19 at 05:41:28

4C7E79686F7E69567A69701B0 wrote:

Yep, he "never grew up"...

But give this a little thought - 4 years ago, Medicare For All was "crazy", voting in a Democratic Socialist was "crazy".

Suddenly, all the democratic candidates are touting how progressive they are. When in reality, Bernie has been the same man for decades. Same with Warren.

I honestly don't think trump has a chance.

I guess we'll see.

Title: Re: Bernie Uncut
Post by WebsterMark on 08/14/19 at 06:10:59

504E41404D504B56240 wrote:

[quote author=704245545342556A46554C270 link=1565701563/15#21 date=1565782231]I was.

Your empathy is based on shallow partisanship.

No, once again, you're wrong.

I feel for those good ol' boys and their kids in KY just as much as I do for the inner city kids on the westside.[/quote]

I think you just proved my point.....

Title: Re: Bernie Uncut
Post by T And T Garage on 08/14/19 at 06:14:38

467473626574635C70637A110 wrote:

[quote author=504E41404D504B56240 link=1565701563/15#23 date=1565786311][quote author=704245545342556A46554C270 link=1565701563/15#21 date=1565782231]I was.

Your empathy is based on shallow partisanship.

No, once again, you're wrong.

I feel for those good ol' boys and their kids in KY just as much as I do for the inner city kids on the westside.[/quote]

I think you just proved my point.....[/quote]

How so?

Southerners are huge trump supporters. Oddly enough, many of them are living way below the poverty level. Far to many have limited, if any, access to healthcare.

Should I not have used the phrase "good ol' boys"? I tried to use phrase you'd recognize.