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Message started by Junker on 07/29/19 at 22:12:09

Title: The Elusive Ping
Post by Junker on 07/29/19 at 22:12:09

I am currently trying to track down an annoying pinging coming from the coming from my bike. It's subtly there when idling and grows louder as I increase the revs. I'm not sure if it is an engine knock, a leak at the header, a leak at the slip-on end of the muffler or coming from around the carburetor.

Here is a list of items I have done to my bike before the ping started.

1. Took off and put back on my muffler trying to squelch some of the exhaust leaks. I think it's still leaking at the join but I have had no real repercussions from it, eg bogging, back firing etc.

2. I have loosened and re-tightened the header pipe just in case a leak had developed while I has putting the muffler back on. Again, no issues like bogging etc.

3. Removed and re-jetted the carb with a set of Lancers miracle workers.
I have rejetted the carb from stock (Pilot - 52.5; Main - 145; Needle - white spacer) too Pilot - 55; Main - 150; Needle - three washers (about 1/2 - 2/3 of white spacer height). I have also looked around and cannot see any signs of a tear or gap between the carb and engine boot or the carb and airbox tube.

4. I have run both 87 then 91 petrol to see if that would effect a change, which it didn't.

I am currently out of ideas of what it could be, any suggestions?

Title: Re: The Elusive Ping
Post by Dave on 07/30/19 at 04:09:54

One thing that has happened just a couple of times, is a loose flywheel nut.

Mine started to make a ticking noise when it only had 400 miles on it, by the time it reached 1,000 miles it was a horrible loud knock. The sound was loudest at idle, and at speed it made less noise as the engine was running smoother at speed.....the flywheel was not knocking on the spines. One other member completely stripped and sold his bike for parts as they felt the knock was terminal - it wasn't until he was taking the engine apart when he found the loose flywheel nut.....by then too much of the bike was sold to put it back together.

It is tough to check, as you need to take the left side engine cover off, remove the rotor with a special puller, and finally you get to the nut.

If you can't find any other source and the noise keeps getting louder....maybe this is a potential source.

Title: Re: The Elusive Ping
Post by batman on 07/30/19 at 06:57:05

You may want to check your cam chain tensioner first , if its very extended it can cause the same type of noise ,usually louder at idle .(no special tools needed). If the tiny snap ring has jumped off the stud that holds the base of the adjuster, the adjuster will try to slide of the stud, it can't, but will misalign and cause valve noise.( a tapping sound heard throughout the motor).
You may want to check the adjustment of the decomp solenoid , if not set right the small arm on the exhaust valve rocker could be hitting the cam in the cylinder head.( also a sign of rockerarm pivot ware)

Title: Re: The Elusive Ping
Post by Junker on 07/30/19 at 20:03:44

Cheers guys; thanks for the direction.

Title: Re: The Elusive Ping
Post by Junker on 08/18/19 at 13:24:31

UPDATE

The ping seems to be coming from the exhaust port right side valve (from standing in front of the front tyre looking down the bike to the tail). I have readjusted the valve clearances as well as the de-comp solenoid resulting in the ping being a lot quieter but still noticeable.

I did check the cam adjuster (I installed a verslavy about 1000 miles ago) and everything is as it should be.

Am I wrong in suspecting that the cam chain could be throwing the out the valve clearances? I have just hit 22000 miles on a bike that looks to have had the head removed by the previous owner.

Title: Re: The Elusive Ping
Post by batman on 08/18/19 at 17:48:21

The stretch of the cam chain ,will retard valve timing very slightly ,but nothing to be concerned about . If you suspect the PO has been inside the top end it may be time to check it for yourself. I don't understand your jets , what is your location/ elevation? what does your sparkplug look like ? better yet try a new plug ,run it fairly hard ,pull it out and tell us what it looks like. Use a magnifying glass and check the tip of the electrode for signs of specks of alumimum. (that would indicate pinging)-running to lean. If your bike has stock compression 87 octane will do , and running 91 won't change anything.

Title: Re: The Elusive Ping
Post by Junker on 08/18/19 at 21:39:43

The Verslavy is on the second hole with the cam adjuster tightly compressed.

I live just under 1000' above sea level.

My current jetting set up is:
Pilot - 55
Main - 150
Needle - three washers (about 1/2 - 2/3 of white spacer height)
(This is from Lancers reject pack).

This was changed from the stock setup of:
Pilot - 52.5
Main - 145
Needle - white spacer

I had the plug out the other night and noticed that it was black and sooty. Running too rich?

I have recently switched out the large HD touring muffler to a 09 dyna slip on. When I went for a motorway run today I noticed that once I hit 60 the bike considerably stopped pulling with it being almost non exsistant once I got up to 70. At 80 bike would start cutting out and surging slightly until I dropped back down to 75 - 70.
With the HD touring muffler I didn't experience this. The bike would pull all they way up to 75 - 80. I have got her up to 85 - 87 and during that speed had no cutting or surging.

Thanks for the feedback Batman!

Title: Re: The Elusive Ping
Post by batman on 08/18/19 at 22:03:17

I think most of your jetting to be OK except the 55pilot , I think that's why your plug is so black. You have to remember that all your jets are cumulative ,that is even at WOT your pilot jet is still adding to your fuel, and a 55 pilot isn't needed unless you at sea level .I run 52.5 /150 down to 400ft often with no problem. I would go back to the stock 52.5 pilot.
longer exhaust's tend to favor mid range rpm ,shorter tend to favor higher rpms If your carb is tuned well ,if you change back to the 52.5 and retune your fuel screw I think you'll see your top speed return and a bit better mpg.

Title: Re: The Elusive Ping
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 08/19/19 at 01:39:39

You have to remember that all your jets are cumulative ,that is even at WOT your pilot jet is still adding to your fuel, and a 55 pilot isn't needed unless you at sea level .

I didnott gnothat.

Title: Re: The Elusive Ping
Post by LANCER on 08/19/19 at 03:37:52

7B646265787F4E7E4E76646823110 wrote:

You have to remember that all your jets are cumulative ,that is even at WOT your pilot jet is still adding to your fuel, and a 55 pilot isn't needed unless you at sea level .

I didnott gnothat.

Yep

Title: Re: The Elusive Ping
Post by kamelryttarn on 08/19/19 at 06:26:52

19222F3829253E38232B26394A0 wrote:

Sometimes it feels like metal banging on metal in the foot pegs on the left side of the engine. I can't say I have heard a pinging sounds as described but I would still like to check the flywheel nut this winter among other things. I found a thread suggesting that I need a 46mm socket and I found the torque specs but how can I lock the shaft?

Title: Re: The Elusive Ping
Post by LANCER on 08/19/19 at 07:49:06

KEthere are 4 tools required to pull the flywheel and I have them, just don’t remember the names except the 46mm.
Dave knows the names and has a better memory.

Title: Re: The Elusive Ping
Post by Junker on 08/19/19 at 10:55:39

I tuned back my carb this morning (made leaner) which has made a dramatic difference. There was a little bit of engine "ditting" (dit .. dit dit .. dit .. dit .. etc) when I hit 80, but nothing as drastic as what I had on Sunday. The bike pulled a lot better with her dropping off at around 70 - 75. I have tuned the card back by another 1/4 of a turn and will test again this afternoon. I hope to change my pilot back to stock in the next few days.

Regarding the ping, it has become quieter with the carb adjustment. It's still there, but not as intrusive as it has been.

Again, thanks Batman for your help!

Lancer, have a question for you. Is the size of the pilot jet in your kit which has holes down it's length #52.5? It's hard to read the number on that jet.

- cheers!

Title: Re: The Elusive Ping
Post by Junker on 09/07/19 at 12:08:34

During a valve clearance check I have discovered that the exhaust side rocker arm has about 5mm of lateral movement. My gues is that this is not normal and could be the cause of the ping?

Note: The intake rocker has zero lateral movement.

Title: Re: The Elusive Ping
Post by DragBikeMike on 09/07/19 at 23:47:31

Both rocker arms should have slight lateral movement when the piston is at TDC on compression stroke. They are nested in the head cover and use a wave washer to keep them from rattling around. I'm guessing each should have about .010" to .030" lateral movement, and should spring back due to the wave washer. Obviously, if an adjuster is too tight, or if you don't have the piston at TDC compression, the valves might be open and then you won't be able to move the rocker arm right & left.

If you have 5mm (.200") of lateral movement, I'm guessing you are missing a wave washer, or the head cover is very, very, very worn. This picture shows how the wave washer is installed. BTW, they can be pretty tricky to get in there, and a missing wave washer would probably make a lot of high pitched ticking/tacking/pinging noise. Also, if the adjuster is allowed to overlap the valve stem, all hell is gonna break loose.

Title: Re: The Elusive Ping
Post by Dave on 09/09/19 at 05:27:30

The idle fuel mixture screw does not have any affect on how the engine runs at anything over 1/4 throttle......it will supply no fuel/air mix at highway speeds.

As the diagram below shows, the fuel mixture screw is a "fine tuning" adjustment.....a larger amount of fuel/air from the pilot circuit bypasses the screw and goes directly to the small holes cut into the side of the throttle body. (This is why the engine can continue to run well if you have a pilot jet that is too large.....the fuel/air adjustment screw can be completely closed, as the engine gets enough fuel/air without any coming through the closed screw).

Also - the fuel/air coming out of the small holes only has adequate vacuum when the throttle butterfly concentrates the air flow across the small "transfer ports" that are drilled into the side of the throttle body for the fuel/air mix. The location and size of the holes determines the amount of fuel/air mix that is added to the air flow as the throttle butterfly opens....once the butterfly is open about 1/4 the flow is not concentrated across the ports....and there is not enough vacuum acting directly on the ports....and the pilot circuit ceases to operate.

Title: Re: The Elusive Ping
Post by Dave on 09/09/19 at 05:34:24

Here is a chart that shows which fuel/air circuit operates at various throttle settings. There is an overlap for each circuit where one stops controlling the fuel/air mix and the other circuit begins to operate. You can see that once you get to 1/4 throttle the pilot jet circuit no longer contributes.

Title: Re: The Elusive Ping
Post by Dave on 09/09/19 at 05:39:08

Do you still have the stock vacuum operated petcock on the bike?

The diaphragm can get stiff and restrict fuel flow at high throttle settings (low engine vacuum)......or the diaphragm can get holes and allow fuel to flow through the vacuum line and result in the engine running too rich.

Title: Re: The Elusive Ping
Post by batman on 09/10/19 at 07:49:40

Dave, Each stage of the throttle opening controls the speed of the motor ,but nothing stops the pilot jet from flowing even at WOT ,it may feed less fuel over all, due to the drop in vacuum as the throttle plate opens , but there's never a time that the vacuum drops to zero , nor is there a controlling devise that would close the circuit, like that found in the TEV valve .

Title: Re: The Elusive Ping
Post by Gary_in_NJ on 09/10/19 at 08:16:10

3231243D313E6468500 wrote:
Dave, Each stage of the throttle opening controls the speed of the motor ,but nothing stops the pilot jet from flowing even at WOT ,it may feed less fuel over all, due to the drop in vacuum as the throttle plate opens , but there's never a time that the vacuum drops to zero , nor is there a controlling devise that would close the circuit, like that found in the TEV valve .

I'm not sure that's true. During times of high fuel flow the level in the float bowl drops, at this point the pilot jet is unable to extract fuel from the bowl and the needle, then the main become the only means of fueling.

Title: Re: The Elusive Ping
Post by Dave on 09/10/19 at 09:16:26

6162776E626D373B030 wrote:

Batman: I don't agree.......once the throttle plate (butterfly) moves away from the idle ports, the vacuum is not concentrated at the ports and there is not sufficient vacuum to pull the fuel/air mix out of the pilot circuit.

I realize this explanation is not a CV motorcycle carb - however the relationship of the butterfly and idle circuit works the same.
http://leakylugnut.com/fuel-management/carburetors/

Even if some fuel/air does trickle out of the pilot circuit at more than 1/4 throttle......it is such a tiny amount it doesn't make a crappity smack bit of difference!!!!!!!! Trying to adjust the idle fuel screw to change how the bike runs at 70-80 mph is a waste of time.

Title: Re: The Elusive Ping
Post by batman on 09/10/19 at 14:07:54

Dave ,I looked at the site you posted , it said that as the throttle opens the fuel is pulled through the opening without the fuel screw , but doesn't state anything about the flow stopping.Dave you have the means to test, you have an O2 meter , use your 50 pilot ,and test at 4000-5000rpm , replace the pilot with a 60 and retest ,if the O2 stays the same then your right .

Gary , If the float bowl level dropped ,Then I'd have to think WOT would be a limited time process. If the float valve is large enough to provide the main jet at WOT , I'm sure if the float level is set right it will also provide fuel to the pilot jet

Title: Re: The Elusive Ping
Post by Dave on 09/10/19 at 14:31:59

Batman:

No....I am content with the situation. You can believe what you want to believe......."I reject your reality and substitute my own"!

I don't need to prove or disprove this, as my bike is running just fine. My goal was to let Junker know that adjusting the idle fuel screw does nothing at engine speeds above a fast idle......or a pinging.

Over and out.......have fun - I am going riding! ;)

Title: Re: The Elusive Ping
Post by batman on 09/11/19 at 02:03:40

Dave , what I objected to was that you said the pilot jet ceases to operate when the throttle opens wider than 1/4 , nothing else. there is always a vacuum on the intake manifold when the piston moves down ,and 14.7 psi at the mouth of the carb and nothing in the pilot circuit that would stop the flow of fuel . The stock carb is a CV after all .Some research on your part would show that the pilot jet still supplies a small amount of fuel even at WOT.