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SuzukiSavage.com
/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> Is it normal for the rear wheel to be off center? /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1563129686 Message started by kamelryttarn on 07/14/19 at 11:41:24 |
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Title: Is it normal for the rear wheel to be off center? Post by kamelryttarn on 07/14/19 at 11:41:24 I have a 1995 Savage I have just begun to ride. When I was searching for a bike to buy I stumbled across a spare rear wheel so I bought figuring it's always good to have spare parts. When I got the wheel I noticed that the left side had a quite nasty groove that looks like it came from a bolt or something in the rear fender. I have a similar but more shallow groove in the tire that sits on my bike and when I stand behind the bike it looks like the rear tire should actually be shifted a couple of millimeters to the right. Is the offset normal/common? |
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Title: Re: Is it normal for the rear wheel to be off cent Post by kamelryttarn on 07/14/19 at 11:41:58 Another pic |
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Title: Re: Is it normal for the rear wheel to be off cent Post by kamelryttarn on 07/14/19 at 11:42:40 View of pulley and tire |
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Title: Re: Is it normal for the rear wheel to be off cent Post by verslagen1 on 07/14/19 at 12:30:46 age crack in the sidewall, replace immediately. |
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Title: Re: Is it normal for the rear wheel to be off cent Post by verslagen1 on 07/14/19 at 12:32:53 the nasty grooves are probably due to the bolt heads on the inside of the fender and the tire getting bottomed out. You can replace the bolts with button or truss head bolts and it won't do that. |
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Title: Re: Is it normal for the rear wheel to be off cent Post by Serowbot on 07/14/19 at 13:43:14 Definitely shouldn't do that. What size is that tire? |
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Title: Re: Is it normal for the rear wheel to be off cent Post by batman on 07/14/19 at 14:02:58 If the tire is off center ,you should be aware that the spacers on each side are different sizes. |
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Title: Re: Is it normal for the rear wheel to be off cent Post by kamelryttarn on 07/14/19 at 23:51:44 Thank you all for valuable input. The tire on the spare wheel will of course be discarded. It was never intended to be used. The dimensions of both the "spare" tire and the one that sits on my bike is 140/90-15. I plan to change to 130/90-15 when it is time to change the one I ride at the moment. I have read a few threads about the tire dimensions and I feel 130 in the rear will probably be better. I have double checked the width of my front and rear rim and they are stamped 2.75 rear and 2.15 front so I know that the rims I have are 2.75" wide and 2.15" wide. I will check the spacers on both sides on the spare tire but it is difficult to check the one that currently sits on my bike. I think I will leave it as it is for now but take extra care when I replace the tire to make sure the wheel is properly centered and I also plan to modify the spare I have to use a double row ball bearing as suggested in another thread to take care of any pulley wobble. |
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Title: Re: Is it normal for the rear wheel to be off cent Post by verslagen1 on 07/15/19 at 06:55:42 The check is easy, the spacer on the left is fat and fits the seal. The one on the right is skinny and fits the flat on the hub. |
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Title: Re: Is it normal for the rear wheel to be off cent Post by stewmills on 07/15/19 at 13:57:03 Order of rear axle parts left to right (as viewed from the rear) |
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Title: Re: Is it normal for the rear wheel to be off cent Post by kamelryttarn on 07/15/19 at 14:01:24 Excellent pic stewmills! I will check on both my spare and the wheel that is mounted on my bike |
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Title: Re: Is it normal for the rear wheel to be off cent Post by kamelryttarn on 08/04/19 at 05:08:57 I have double checked the rear axle of my bike and the spacers are installed correctly. Both the tire on my bike and a spare I bought from another guy show grooves on the left side wall of the tire so it feels like this is a common issue, that the rear tire is slightly off center and should be shifted slightly to the right side of the bike. If you stand directly behind your bikes, will the rear tire sit in the center if the fender or slightly to the left? |
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Title: Re: Is it normal for the rear wheel to be off cent Post by stewmills on 08/05/19 at 08:42:45 Looked at mine and the rear wheel is dead center to the rear fender. I have the larger 140/90/15 and stock shocks and also have my rear wheel pretty much full forward (due to the larger front pulley upgrade) and I have no rubbing issues at all. I have replaced the pillion hex head bolts under the rear fender with button cap allen bolts just as a safeguard, but even before that I still had no rubbing. Either that "temporary" tire is jacked up, your used wheel has an oversized bearing in once side or undersized bearing in the other, or someone lost one of the stock spacers and replaced it with something not quite the right size. Sump'n isn't right. |
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Title: Re: Is it normal for the rear wheel to be off cent Post by ohiomoto on 08/05/19 at 09:59:10 617265647B7670727926170 wrote:
That's where I'd be looking. |
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Title: Re: Is it normal for the rear wheel to be off cent Post by justin_o_guy2 on 08/05/19 at 11:00:36 Since the problem is on one side, I'd be feeling the bolt heads on both sides and see if there isn't one on the left side that is taller than the ones on the right. It's not a new bike and nobody has a clue what someone might have done. Heck, maybe one has backed out a bit. If everything is stock, bolts, etc. and you have checked the spacers and they are right, then you should be getting grooves on both sides, so, I'd be checking out how far out those bolt heads are on the left, and compare them to the right, fershure. |
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Title: Re: Is it normal for the rear wheel to be off cent Post by ohiomoto on 08/06/19 at 08:24:51 Or even a bent fender... |
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Title: Re: Is it normal for the rear wheel to be off cent Post by Hiko on 08/06/19 at 21:39:02 I have a 140/90/15 Shinko 230 tyre on the rear and it is in the center of the fender with no rubbing at all. Big improvement on the stock IRC tyre BTW. |
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Title: Re: Is it normal for the rear wheel to be off cent Post by DragBikeMike on 08/06/19 at 23:55:52 Is it conceivable that the passenger peg bolts could be an issue? On mine, the right side is pretty close so I inspect it often to make sure its not backing out. The left has a lot more room but you never know. |
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Title: Re: Is it normal for the rear wheel to be off cent Post by batman on 08/07/19 at 06:11:27 Have you removed the upper belt guard? the rear support is also the spacer/washer? behind the lower shock mount, if the guard is removed ,it needs to be replaced with a washer of the same thickness ,or when you tighten the axle it could draw the wheel( and the swing arm) to the left do to misalignment of the shock. |
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Title: Re: Is it normal for the rear wheel to be off cent Post by kamelryttarn on 08/07/19 at 06:42:01 Thank you all for checking your bikes and for tips about what parts to check. It's absolutely possible that the fender is at least part of the problem. I don't know how to properly verify this. I will try to figure out which bolt it is that makes contact with the tire. I guess it should be visible with a flashlight. If it has touched the tire I'm thinking it must be shinier and more "polished" that the other ones. The upper belt guard is still in place and has not been removed before to my knowledge but I will try and check what order the bolt and washers go together. Perhaps someone before me has taken it apart and put it back together in the wrong order. I COULD perhaps try and make new spacers to correct the problem but if the issue lies elsewhere I'm afraid I might make things even worse or perhaps make it weird to drive if the front and rear wheel are not aligned. |
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Title: Re: Is it normal for the rear wheel to be off cent Post by batman on 08/07/19 at 20:16:04 Then it might pay to check the alignment of the wheel or fender? I would have thought you would have found something amiss buy now. |
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Title: Re: Is it normal for the rear wheel to be off cent Post by kamelryttarn on 08/07/19 at 23:01:34 Apologies for not letting you know that my bike is parked in my workshop that is almost 25 miles from where I live so I have somewhat limited time and more importantly skill/knowledge to fix this so it will probably take me this winter to figure out where the problem lies and how to fix it. All easily checked things like spacers and washers are controlled and can be crossed of the list. That's about as far as I have come. |
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Title: Re: Is it normal for the rear wheel to be off cent Post by Matchless G11 on 08/08/19 at 03:06:41 When you get a chance. Have someone sit on your bike to load the suspension, and you look. That might allow the problem to come to light. |
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Title: Re: Is it normal for the rear wheel to be off cent Post by batman on 08/08/19 at 14:16:45 The Savage goes almost anywhere is you remove the handle bars , It would make a really ugly coffee table ,but would allow you to save the 50 mile round trip ,and you could work on it in odd hours , watching tour favorite TV shows ::). |
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Title: Re: Is it normal for the rear wheel to be off cent Post by kamelryttarn on 01/15/20 at 04:39:25 Just got a lift in my workshop so I can hoist it up a little bit and yesterday I took a picture from behind as centered as I could get. It looks like the entire rear swing arm is slightly shifted to the left. My plan is to replace the rear wheel since the belt pulley is worn down so I will probably be able to take better pictures in a while. |
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Title: Re: Is it normal for the rear wheel to be off cent Post by Gary_in_NJ on 01/15/20 at 06:26:11 It's more likely that the fender is shifted right. |
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Title: Re: Is it normal for the rear wheel to be off cent Post by verslagen1 on 01/15/20 at 08:57:44 Could be an optical illusion, but compared against the horns, you're definitely shifted left. And in stock form, it should be shifted right. Check your spacers, fat one on the left (it fits the seal), skinny on the Right. |
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Title: Re: Is it normal for the rear wheel to be off cent Post by Gary_in_NJ on 01/15/20 at 10:37:41 Look at your photo with the line that I have attached. The line starts at the steering stem, goes through the center of the tank, the center of the frame, and then the center of the tire. What is out of whack the "sissy bar" or whatever you want to call that contraption. It's clearly cocked to the right, taking the fender with it. Note that the wire through-hole at the center of the fender is right of center. |
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Title: Re: Is it normal for the rear wheel to be off cent Post by verslagen1 on 01/15/20 at 11:56:14 Very difficult to make that assessment from a picture that taken slightly out of alignment with the center of the bike. That line does not bisect the risers and the signals aren't centered by the tank. the Rectifier is just about centered in the horns, but the line is very off center. |
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Title: Re: Is it normal for the rear wheel to be off cent Post by Gary_in_NJ on 01/15/20 at 12:23:13 I don't know what the horns are...the only horn I'm aware of has a button on the left grip. Anyway. The subframe is obviously tweaked. If the swingarm was moved over to the left, the bike would have some serious control problems and would show significant wear on one side of the tire. That tire looks darn near perfect to me. If the frame was bent enough for the swingarm to be out of alignment, then nothing on the bike would align (like engine to frame) and the bike should be totaled. It's possible that the axle spacers were placed in the axle incorrectly, but then the bike would show uneven wear on the final drive belt...the belt probably wouldn't even stay on the bike. |
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Title: Re: Is it normal for the rear wheel to be off cent Post by Gary_in_NJ on 01/15/20 at 12:27:05 Looking at the photo more carefully, is the rear pulley tweaked? Does it have a left-to-right cant from top to bottom? Is this a salvage bike? Is this bike new to you? |
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Title: Re: Is it normal for the rear wheel to be off cent Post by kamelryttarn on 01/16/20 at 01:05:52 The bike is new to me (got it last winter and have driven it three times so far). This is my first ever motorcycle and it looks like the previous owners haven't taken very good care of it. The horns you speak of I assume are the frame ends that normally sits under the seat. The axle spacers have been checked and they are installed correctly. I will try my best to provide a better picture with a proper center line. The rear pulley is EXTREMELY worn down so I think I have to replace it asap so I wont end up destroying the new belt that the last owner installed just before he sold it to me. |
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Title: Re: Is it normal for the rear wheel to be off cent Post by verslagen1 on 01/16/20 at 07:24:51 BTW, I have used pulleys. Some fairly new. |
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Title: Re: Is it normal for the rear wheel to be off cent Post by Gary_in_NJ on 01/16/20 at 08:04:17 I wonder if the rubber vibration dampers in the pulley hub are warn/damaged. That would explain the strange angle. Regarding the very first post in the thread, the upper sub frame being squed/tweaked/bent to the right would cause the groove to be cut into the tire. There appears to be some serious damage to this part of the frame. If it was my bike, I'd remove the fender assembly and pull some string from point-to-point to see where the frame is bent and how it can be straightened. |
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Title: Re: Is it normal for the rear wheel to be off cent Post by justin_o_guy2 on 01/16/20 at 09:19:18 I'd pull the front pulley cover and put a good piece of cord under the belt, roll forward until it's at half way and pull it back to the rear pulley. When it's laying flat on the front pulley it should be really, really close to flat across the rear pulley. If the belt is tight you might see the rear of the pulley slightly out. Once you've got the wheel situated correctly in that direction, you can get the bike standing up straight and see if the rear wheel is also vertical. If not, why not? If it is Then check fender clearance on both sides. |
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Title: Re: Is it normal for the rear wheel to be off cent Post by ohiomoto on 01/16/20 at 14:09:14 I would kick the right side of the fender as hard as I can, sort out the rear pulley and call it a day. ;) |
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Title: Re: Is it normal for the rear wheel to be off cent Post by kamelryttarn on 01/17/20 at 00:01:03 Thank you all for helping me out. The pulley currently mounted to the rear wheel is worn but I have a spare tire with a pulley that looks fresh so I will mount that together with a new tire when I have sorted out whats wrong with it as it is right now. Is it possible that this bike has been dropped on the side? Can that cause these kind of issues? I will try and remove the rear fender and inspect it as well as snap some new pictures of the bike and frame. Quote:
I don't fully understand. Could you explain it in very simple terms for me? |
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Title: Re: Is it normal for the rear wheel to be off cent Post by Gary_in_NJ on 01/17/20 at 06:57:39 6E7C6C3E3F6F796C6D0B0 wrote:
This appears to be a dropped or wrecked bike. |
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Title: Re: Is it normal for the rear wheel to be off cent Post by justin_o_guy2 on 01/17/20 at 09:47:38 Get a good piece of string Lay one end under the belt On the front pulley Move the belt to carry the string to the front of the pulley Work string through to rear of bike Pull tight, to make string straight Move the end toward and away from rear pulley, Find where the string lays across the front pulley AND IS STRAIGHT. That really should be very, very close to your rear pulley. If not, gotta find out why. |
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Title: Re: Is it normal for the rear wheel to be off cent Post by kamelryttarn on 01/19/20 at 23:49:50 I started to remove the rear tire this weekend. I tried to follow my Clymer manual but it's not always applicable to my bike. Are the bolts that sits in the rear swing arm and connects to the shock absorbers supposed to be removable? On the left side I managed to move it a little bit but the right side is as stuck as if it was welded to the frame. I tried with some penetrating oil and en electric heat gun but it made no difference. |
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Title: Re: Is it normal for the rear wheel to be off cent Post by kamelryttarn on 01/19/20 at 23:50:26 I also noticed quite a bit of rust where the swing arm connects to the frame and on the left side the cap that is supposed to protect the mount bolt of the swing arm was missing and when I got the rear tire out and managed to dis-engage both shock absorbers it felt like the bearings to the swing arm were filled with sand and gravel so I think I need to remove the swing arm and inspect and probably replace the needle bearings. Does anyone know the dimensions of the needle bearings in case I can fins SKF bearings with the same dimensions as the original since it's much easier for me in Sweden to get SKF bearing than original Suzuki parts. |
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Title: Re: Is it normal for the rear wheel to be off cent Post by verslagen1 on 01/20/20 at 07:29:57 243626747525332627410 wrote:
Yes, they both come out. |
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Title: Re: Is it normal for the rear wheel to be off cent Post by kamelryttarn on 01/20/20 at 23:01:48 I removed the swing arm yesterday. I know pretty much nothing when it comes to mechanics but I'm fairly certain it's not supposed to look like this. |
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Title: Re: Is it normal for the rear wheel to be off cent Post by kamelryttarn on 01/20/20 at 23:02:57 What am I looking at here. Is it the bearing or a bushing? I don't fully understand the image in the Clymer manual |
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Title: Re: Is it normal for the rear wheel to be off cent Post by kamelryttarn on 01/20/20 at 23:04:32 Here is another picture |
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Title: Re: Is it normal for the rear wheel to be off cent Post by kamelryttarn on 01/20/20 at 23:17:05 Is it ok to post a picture taken from the Clymer manual? I don't want to cause any trouble in case it is copyright violation. It is part of the picture describing the different parts used to mount the swing arm to the frame. If it's ok, I will modify the post and attach the real picture |
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Title: Re: Is it normal for the rear wheel to be off cent Post by Gary_in_NJ on 01/21/20 at 03:45:09 There's no bearing in the LS650 swingarm (Suzuki cost cutting). It's just a greased bushing. Yours looks dry as a bone. Whether it's bent or damaged, I can't tell from the photos. |
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Title: Re: Is it normal for the rear wheel to be off cent Post by SpamyToo on 01/21/20 at 03:52:37 Are you sure? #2 looks like needle bearings to me. It looks like they either ate themselves or fell out on the road. https://static.motorcyclespareparts.eu/images/suzuki/motorcycles/CE_23999_1.JPG https://www.suzukipartshouse.com/oemparts/a/suz/50d3308cf8700232d0b3db57/rear-swinging-arm |
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Title: Re: Is it normal for the rear wheel to be off cent Post by kamelryttarn on 01/21/20 at 03:56:07 From what I understand there is a needle bearing pressed into the frame, not the swing arm. Dimensions seem to be 22x29x30mm My Clymer manual indicates there are two needle bearings involved in the mounting of the rear swing arm. I will try and remove the parts I can without special tools and I plan to order a kit with pullers for internal bearings so I can extract the old bearings from the frame |
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Title: Re: Is it normal for the rear wheel to be off cent Post by kamelryttarn on 01/21/20 at 03:58:53 785B4A46527F44442B0 wrote:
Yes I think you are correct about part #2. I believe the loose thingy I can se on my bike is part #4 referred to as pivot spacer and hopefully the bearing can still be removed with some mild force and the proper tools without any damage to the frame |
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Title: Re: Is it normal for the rear wheel to be off cent Post by SpamyToo on 01/21/20 at 04:02:12 I dont think they are pressed. Usually that stuff is all just slid in. Maybe Im wrong about this bike, but every swing arm Ive ever rebuilt they just slid in by hand. The kit seems pretty cheap though. It doesnt appear that SKF has the same size. https://www.motosport.com/product?adpos=1o1&cc=us&creative=331604524038&device=c&gclid=CjwKCAiA35rxBRAWEiwADqB376R3m0HKtCjGHdFzrxtSy64u2Wse6kqytrtCVLsMlQrIo0eM_8A59hoCVWIQAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds&key=All-Balls-Swingarm-Bearing-Kit&matchtype=&mmy=suzuki;ls650;2007&mmy_source=pdp&mrkgadid=3327780296&mrkgcl=500&network=g&product_id=ABL000T-X001-Y088&pssource=true&rkg_id=0&segment=badger&variant=ABL000T-X001-Y088 |
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Title: Re: Is it normal for the rear wheel to be off cent Post by SpamyToo on 01/21/20 at 04:04:51 This appears to be an actual picture of the bike, I cant find any of my own around this computer. https://i.pinimg.com/originals/30/68/1f/30681fe34aae72da7478f72e11b9df6c.jpg |
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Title: Re: Is it normal for the rear wheel to be off cent Post by kamelryttarn on 01/21/20 at 04:05:52 6D4E5F53476A51513E0 wrote:
That page wasn't available in the EU but you are correct. SKF doesn't seem to make bearings in this size but I have found several stores in Sweden so the bearing wont be difficult to get. I just hope the frame isn't too badly pitted and destroyed by the rust. |
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Title: Re: Is it normal for the rear wheel to be off cent Post by SpamyToo on 01/21/20 at 04:07:13 It doesnt look too bad to me at all. Just needs a bit of care that its been missing for a few thousand miles, I mean Kilometers. |
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Title: Re: Is it normal for the rear wheel to be off cent Post by kamelryttarn on 01/21/20 at 11:54:32 Not much left of the bearing |
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Title: Re: Is it normal for the rear wheel to be off cent Post by Gary in NJ on 01/21/20 at 14:29:19 Yes, I was thinking “swingarm” not frame. The frame gets two 22X29X30 needle bearings. Ron Ayers has em for $16 each. |
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Title: Re: Is it normal for the rear wheel to be off cent Post by DragBikeMike on 01/23/20 at 13:53:53 Kamelryttarn, that is one worn out scooter. How many miles/km are on the clock? Regarding your original problem, tire has deep groove worn into the left sidewall, I think you have uncovered the problem. The swingarm pivot is 7" wide. The distance from the center of the pivot bolt to the center of the rear axle is 19.5". The ratio is 2.8:1. The worn out bearings allow the swingarm to shift left and right. On acceleration, the driving force pushes the pivot hard against the forward side of the bearing bores, things should remain sort of in alignment. But on deceleration, the braking force tries to pull the swingarm back, but the belt force is trying to pull it forward. This results in the opposing forces skewing the rear of the swing arm hard to the left. Your pictures indicate that there is probably about 1/16" to 1/8" movement in those bearings. That would result in a movement at the rear axle of between 3/8" to 3/4". The result is the tire rubbing on the left fender bolts during deceleration. That thing must have been scary to ride. Your picture of the pulley also looks to me like it runs too close to the swingarm. That clearance is controlled by the spacers and bearings in the rear wheel assembly. There are actually four spacers (pc 2, 17, 18 & 19). Check the clearance between the rim of the pulley and the swingarm. If all is right, the pulley should look like this with about 11/32" clearance between the rim and the swingarm. |
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Title: Re: Is it normal for the rear wheel to be off cent Post by DragBikeMike on 01/23/20 at 13:57:47 This illustrated parts breakdown identifies the four spacers. |
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Title: Re: Is it normal for the rear wheel to be off cent Post by DragBikeMike on 01/23/20 at 14:00:18 The nomenclature for the assembly actually provides the dimensions for three of the spacers (2, 18 & 19). It refers to spacer 17 as "Retainer, Drum", but its a spacer. The three sets of dimensions should help you check it out. |
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Title: Re: Is it normal for the rear wheel to be off cent Post by DragBikeMike on 01/23/20 at 14:03:34 Once you have the bearings and spacers sorted out, reassemble the beast and check the alignment using a long straight edge. I use a saw guide (for a rip saw). Clamp the guide to the rear pulley and check to see how it lines up with the front pulley. The left shock absorber, belt guard, and front pulley cover have to be removed for this check. |
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Title: Re: Is it normal for the rear wheel to be off cent Post by DragBikeMike on 01/23/20 at 14:05:31 The long straight edge will most certainly be parallel to the rear pulley because it is clamped directly to the rear pulley. It should be in intimate contact with the rim of the pulley, all the way across as shown here. |
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Title: Re: Is it normal for the rear wheel to be off cent Post by DragBikeMike on 01/23/20 at 14:14:02 In an ideal world, the straight edge will also be in intimate contact with the rim of the front pulley, all the way across, front to back. But alas, some things really aren't worth struggling with. As long as the straight edge is parallel to the front pulley, and it is within about 1/16" of the front pulley, things should be fine. If the straight edge hits the front pulley and won't allow proper parallel alignment, or if it is parallel but the gap is greater than 1/16" or so, then you have to shift the rear wheel right or left by adjusting the spacer thicknesses. You should confine that to spacers 18 & 19. You can see from this photo that mine is parallel but has a small gap of about 1/16". I could probably close the gap down by making spacer 19 a little longer, and spacer 18 a little shorter. To me, it's not worth messing with. It works perfect as-is. Good luck with the repair and alignment. |
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Title: Re: Is it normal for the rear wheel to be off cent Post by kamelryttarn on 01/23/20 at 23:52:31 Thank you all very much! I am amazed of the time and effort you all put in to help others. I hope I will eventually get my bike back together. I have ordered tools to pull out whats left of the bearings. Hopefully the frame is in good enough condition to accept some new bearings and after that I will continue to mount and align the rear tire. I found another thread suggesting drilling and tapping a hole to install a grease fitting which sounds like an excellent idea but I think I need to remove the rust first. @DragBikeMike: You asked about the miles on this bike. The odometer says 32000km (~20.000 miles) but I'm not sure that's correct. |
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Title: Re: Is it normal for the rear wheel to be off cent Post by ohiomoto on 01/24/20 at 16:41:23 A grease fitting would be overkill in my opinion. The is so little motion on that joint at the crappy factory grease last plenty long enough for the average rider. Unfortunately, your bike looks like it was ridden under extreme conditions. Like a lifetime of saltwater and sand. You paying the price for that now, but you are learning a lifetime worth of maintenance lessons and you'll know what to look for if you decided to buy another used bike down the road. :) |
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Title: Re: Is it normal for the rear wheel to be off cent Post by SpamyToo on 01/24/20 at 17:31:08 I think that needle bearing is a captive bearing anyways, I dont think the grease would reach the inside. A lot of other bikes, especially dirt bikes have that feature. But its often aimed at lubing the mid part usually, where its sometimes just bushings and and a shaft. A zerk fitting there might be a nice feature. I guess on this bike it would actually a part of the frame, not the swingarm. |
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Title: Re: Is it normal for the rear wheel to be off cent Post by kamelryttarn on 02/01/20 at 07:44:15 An update. I received the bearing puller this week and tried to remove the part of the bearing that was still stuck inside the frame. It didn't work and the tool broke. The bearing "housing" is really stuck inside the frame tubing. The next thing I will try is to use saw and try to cut the bearing housings in half and see if I can pull the pieces out. |
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Title: Re: Is it normal for the rear wheel to be off cent Post by badwolf on 02/01/20 at 08:04:32 Good luck trying to saw a bearing race, that steel is harder than a blade! Carbide or diamond ''might'' work. I would get out my Dremel tool and carefully grind a slot thru it, then punch it out. |
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Title: Re: Is it normal for the rear wheel to be off cent Post by batman on 02/01/20 at 08:29:01 You could find a shop to turn a rod down to the ID size of the swingarm and use a hydraulic press to push the bearing out. Rust is no match for 10-20 tons of pressure . |
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Title: Re: Is it normal for the rear wheel to be off cent Post by justin_o_guy2 on 02/01/20 at 09:28:03 Penetrating oil, not wd40, but something like Kroil, or mix acetone and dexron automatic transmission fluid 50/50, Wet it good, and wet it again and again,give it some time, days, and bang on it, shake it up, soak it more,, not everything works in a minute, or even an hour, If you have a good compressor, a panel cutter fitted with a punch will get more done in three seconds than a four pound hammer and a punch in several hours. A bearing puller might work, BUT,, It's been allowed to rust up.. |
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Title: Re: Is it normal for the rear wheel to be off cent Post by SpamyToo on 02/01/20 at 17:46:59 +1 on the penetrating oil. If that doesnt work, what I do when a bearing just wont come out, is cut through the race or whats left of the bearing with a dremel and little fiber cutting wheel. Dont cut all the way through, just enough to weaken the wall of the bearing so that you can work it loose with a screwdriver and pop out the remaining pieces. You may have to make several cuts to make the bearing wall or race weak enough. |
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Title: Re: Is it normal for the rear wheel to be off cent Post by kamelryttarn on 02/08/20 at 22:04:36 I finally managed to get the bearings out. It took a bit of work with the Dremel and then I could drive them out with a special, home fabricated, tool |
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Title: Re: Is it normal for the rear wheel to be off cent Post by DragBikeMike on 02/09/20 at 14:52:57 That's great. Good job. Can you take some more pictures of the tooling you fabricated and some closeups of the bearing races? Would be nice to have the specifics. Also, do you have a link for that bearing puller set? |
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Title: Re: Is it normal for the rear wheel to be off cent Post by kamelryttarn on 02/09/20 at 23:06:45 Of course. I will add some more closeups when I get a chance to take new pictures of it, but the puller set is this one from ebay: https://www.ebay.com/itm/264034512416 It is from a UK seller but was actually shipped from Germany which was a good thing for me since it arrived in just a few days. All the big pullers in the set us a regular metric M10 thread so the tool fabricated mostly by a friend of mine was an adapter so that I could use the hammer drill. My hammer drill was supplied with a threaded adapter that had a 1/2" UNF thread with 20 TPI on one side and a SDS plus mount on the opposite side so the only thing needed was a threaded cylinder with a female M10 thread in one end and a 1/2" UNF thread in the other. Mine was a bit short since I measured completely wrong so I had the use an extension. This piece should be easy to make for anyone that has access to a lathe. |
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Title: Re: Is it normal for the rear wheel to be off cent Post by DragBikeMike on 02/10/20 at 11:25:09 Thanks for the link. I wasn't able to pick up the exact one you purchased, but there were others shown with more favorable shipping to Hawaii, so I ordered one. I've been wanting a puller like this for a long time. I'm totally stoked. So you used a hammer drill. Do you think you could have got the old bearings out by simply using the slide hammer that comes with the kit? I'm anxious to see your pictures. Very curious about your cuts through the bearing races. Thanks again. 8-) |
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Title: Re: Is it normal for the rear wheel to be off cent Post by kamelryttarn on 02/10/20 at 23:29:08 Once I cut them with the Dremel I probably could have driven them out with the slide hammer but without the cut they wouldn't budge. There was absolutely no movement at all. The washers I used as spacers made it impossible to use the hammer drill to drive them all the way out so once I got them loose I used the long threaded part in the kit and just tapped them out with a few mild taps with a regular hammer. I will try and provide more pictures that can hopefully help others. I first tried to pull the bearing out but the construction of the tools makes them probably more suited for driving/pushing stuck bearings out. The contact surface is not really flat (I will try and take a close up picture to explain what I mean) and they are not very hard so I actually deformed the edges a little when I first used it to pull instead of push. |
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Title: Re: Is it normal for the rear wheel to be off cent Post by kamelryttarn on 02/12/20 at 02:33:20 The more I learn and read about bearings it feels like caged needle roller bearings is completely wrong for mounting the rear swing arm. From an assembly point of view it makes sense but that's about it. It may not happen but I am contemplating having an adapter flange made so that I can use spherical plain bearings instead. It will probably prove to be too expensive but wouldn't a plain bearing be more suited for the task? There is no high speed rotation, only slight rocking up and down. https://www.skf.com/us/products/plain-bearings/spherical-plain-bearings-rod-ends/radial/productid-GEH%2010%20C Thoughts? |
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Title: Re: Is it normal for the rear wheel to be off cent Post by splash07 on 02/12/20 at 06:21:07 You may be right about the needle bearing being overkill but I would not discount any torque put on the swing arm from the drive belt. Having the drive input on one side might mean that the pivot point takes more stress side to side, and the bearing helps to spread out that force over more surface area? Or not, and I'm overthinking it. :P |
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Title: Re: Is it normal for the rear wheel to be off cent Post by kamelryttarn on 02/12/20 at 06:48:58 The original bearing has a static load specification of ~43kN The SKF GEH 10 C has a static load specification of ~28kN which is probably more than enough (just an un-educated assumption I make) but most importantly they are maintenance free and from what I understand more suited for non-revolving applications. I also think that the caged needle roller bearing need a very tightly fitted and hardened bushing to be able to support such heavy loads. My old bushings seem to show large amount of wear on just one side so I'm guessing there has been a considerable amount of play for a long time. A plain bearing probably wont show that kind of wear. Again this is just speculation on my part but I doubt that the original bearing was chosen based on performance and longevity. |
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Title: Re: Is it normal for the rear wheel to be off cent Post by justin_o_guy2 on 02/12/20 at 08:18:31 They aren't usually a problem.. |
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Title: Re: Is it normal for the rear wheel to be off cent Post by kamelryttarn on 02/12/20 at 23:53:04 Here is a picture of the spacers I pulled out of my bike. I took some measurements of the pivot bolt and it is a 14mm OD bolt, so any bearing with at least 14mm ID should work ok. [edit] I have searched high and low and I think I have finally found a good alternative. NMB manufacture a spherical plain bearing with 29mm outer diameter (exactly the same as the original) and 14mm internal/shaft diameter that matches the original pivot bolt. I have contacted the to see what min order quantity is since it's not a stock item. https://www.eminebea.com/en/product/bearing/spherical/mbytmbyt-v.shtml I will have to add a seal in front of each bearing to keep moisture and dirt out but the bearings are supposed to be maintenance free if kept clean. |
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Title: Re: Is it normal for the rear wheel to be off cent Post by kamelryttarn on 02/13/20 at 07:20:50 Here is a picture of the bearing races I finally managed to get out of the frame. You can see the cut from the Dremel. They don't see to be too badly affected by rust so the frame is probably still ok |
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Title: Re: Is it normal for the rear wheel to be off cent Post by kamelryttarn on 02/13/20 at 07:41:13 I found a stock plain bearing that should work as far as I can see https://www.mcgillmotorsport.com/m14-spherical-plain-bearing-gek14t-teflon-lined-889/ I will continue to read up on bearings but I think this bearing may actually work. The price is right and for once available without having to import it from the US or Asia ;) |
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Title: Re: Is it normal for the rear wheel to be off cent Post by DragBikeMike on 02/13/20 at 13:04:54 I think JOG provided an excellent comment. The stock bearings are not a problem. They are typical for this application, and found on most motorcycles. I think they fell victim to neglect, and possibly over aggressive cleaning practices (i.e. pressure washing). I suggest that you just get two new pivot bearings (Pc 2) and two new pivot spacers (Pc 4) and reassemble with a liberal dose of wheel bearing grease. It will probably outlast the motorcycle. BTW, thanks very much for the pictures. Very informative. |
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Title: Re: Is it normal for the rear wheel to be off cent Post by ohiomoto on 02/13/20 at 19:18:13 I still think someone rode that bike underwater, more than once... ;) |
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Title: Re: Is it normal for the rear wheel to be off cent Post by kamelryttarn on 02/15/20 at 06:49:14 Here are some more pictures of the tools I took today while working on my bike. You can clearly see that the edge is not a 90 degree but rather something loser to 45 making the tool better for pushing bearings rather that pulling them |
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Title: Re: Is it normal for the rear wheel to be off cent Post by kamelryttarn on 02/15/20 at 06:51:00 Another picture. I have visually inspected the frame tube that is holding the bearings and is doesn't look too bad at all so I think some new bearings will work just fine. |
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Title: Re: Is it normal for the rear wheel to be off cent Post by Armen on 02/16/20 at 03:59:49 The tool is called a blind end bearing puller. The reason the end is 45 degrees or so is so that the puller can wedge itself behind the bearing. As you force the puller open, it moves the bearing out slightly and gets a better purchase. If the end wasn't tapered, it wouldn't be able to get behind the bearing. Once the tool is opened up. the load of the bearing being pulled is on a thicker section of steel in the puller. There is no way to use this as a bearing pusher. Only a puller. |
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Title: Re: Is it normal for the rear wheel to be off cent Post by kamelryttarn on 02/16/20 at 06:47:46 All I know is that it worked great as a bearing pusher for me. I guess I was using it the wrong way and with that in mind I must caution anyone who wish to use it as a pusher but it did the trick for me. |
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Title: Re: Is it normal for the rear wheel to be off cent Post by kamelryttarn on 02/18/20 at 23:17:43 I good friend of mine offered to make flanged bushings from "oilite" (not sure if this is the correct name for it) which is some kind of oil impregnated bronze material. The idea is to have a single bushings that fits the 29mm inside diameter of the tube and the 14mm diameter of the pivot bolt so I don't need any spacers or washers. It means I wont make any modification to the bike and if this doesn't work I can easily order new roller bearings and bushings and make it like the original again. To me it sounds like something worth trying but I value your input. Do you think I should give it a try? |
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Title: Re: Is it normal for the rear wheel to be off cent Post by batman on 02/19/20 at 00:53:25 Oilite can withstand 10,000 psi , it would be very good to use ,but should be greased on install . (early Honda 750K's used it for swing arms) |
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