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SuzukiSavage.com
/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> Oil Pressure /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1559853083 Message started by DragBikeMike on 06/06/19 at 13:31:23 |
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Title: Oil Pressure Post by DragBikeMike on 06/06/19 at 13:31:23 I’ve seen a lot of posts and comments related to oil pressure. Seems our engines are prone to worn out camshafts and rocker arms. I wanted to learn more about our top end oiling system so when I did my head exchange I decided to see if I could install a pressure gage to measure oil pressure to the top end. Our engines use ball and roller bearings in the lower end so there must be some sort of orifice in the system to prevent all the oil from dribbling through the bottom end. I assume that orifice is probably in the right-hand side of the crankshaft where the oil enters from the filter. The built-in restriction might also be in the clutch cover assembly. Anyone have any idea where the built-in restriction is located? |
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Title: Re: Oil Pressure Post by DragBikeMike on 06/06/19 at 13:34:20 I initially installed a 0-60 psi gage. I had no idea what sort of pressure to expect and I didn’t want to blow the gage up. As it turns out, 0-60 was way too ambitious. I ended up with a 0-15 psi gage installed. That has a major problem in that when cold, the pressure exceeds the range of the gage, but when hot, the pressure is extremely low. It would be nice if our top ends were fed a steady diet of oil pressurized to about 10 psi, but unfortunately that’s not the case. We’re lookin at pressure that ranges from zero to 3 psi (dependent on engine speed) when the oil is at normal operating temperature. I run 20W-50 oil so you folks running 10W-40 can probably expect less pressure to your top end (I’m gonna guess zero to 2 psi). Once my engine is up to normal operating temperature, I have zero top end oil pressure from idle to about 2900 rpm. From 3000 rpm to about 3500 rpm I have about 2 to 2.5 psi. Once past 3500 rpm it runs right at 3 psi. The zero psi doesn’t alarm me. I routinely observed zero psi on my Harley. That’s just how these engines with ball & roller bottom ends work. The difference here is the Harley top end didn’t have a cam to lubricate. Our top end does have a cam and there’s a lot of sliding friction to deal with. When cold, the oil pressure over-ranges the gage. Looks like it runs approximately 20 psi. I must take things easy for about the first minute of operation to prevent the instrument from rotating 360° and hitting the hard stop. Certainly not ideal. I could install a 0-30 psi gage but then it would mostly read zero. We’ll see how things go. If it blows up, I will let you know. |
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Title: Re: Oil Pressure Post by DragBikeMike on 06/06/19 at 13:35:20 I installed the gage line in the cylinder head cover at the 130 mm bolt hole in the rear right-hand corner. This hole serves as the passage for the top end oil. It was easy to do and so far, has worked fine with no leaks. |
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Title: Re: Oil Pressure Post by DragBikeMike on 06/06/19 at 13:36:26 Here’s a look at the installed fitting. I sealed it with epoxy to give me that little bit of extra assurance that things will stay oil-tight. The epoxy also provides a little bit of extra support for the fitting. It only has about 1/8” thread engagement but that’s certainly adequate when you consider how much pressure it is subjected to. |
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Title: Re: Oil Pressure Post by DragBikeMike on 06/06/19 at 13:37:11 This is what the fitting looks like on the engine. |
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Title: Re: Oil Pressure Post by DragBikeMike on 06/06/19 at 13:38:39 I used NOS compression fittings and NOS 1/8” nylon tubing to connect the head cover to the gage. The tubing is rated for 500 psi but only 200°F. That makes me a bit uncomfortable. But as I mentioned, it’s working fine so far, and I’ve got that motor good and hot several times since I installed the gage line. No leaks yet. I left the beauty covers off so that I could keep an eye on the fitting until I have good confidence that it is a sound installation. I will have to mill a notch in the cover for the gage line and fitting. It shouldn’t look too bad. Here’s how the gage looks from the rider’s view. I like it. It’s a liquid filled gage intended for high vibration applications. |
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Title: Re: Oil Pressure Post by DragBikeMike on 06/06/19 at 13:39:18 Based on the pressure readings that I am seeing, the comments regarding not letting the engine idle for long periods of time are probably darned good advice. I also wouldn’t cruise around at engine speeds below 3000 rpm. Get that little thumper revved up. The readings also make me think about those holes in the cam lobes. I imagine the holes could make it even harder to build up oil pressure. What an interesting problem. |
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Title: Re: Oil Pressure Post by verslagen1 on 06/06/19 at 14:54:54 42444B37353236060 wrote:
Yes, it's at the back end of the oil channel that runs along the top of the case and clutch cover. |
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Title: Re: Oil Pressure Post by Ruttly on 06/06/19 at 14:56:33 Smaller hole DBM ? Synflex tubing works well till exposed to heat , pressure on the inside and too much heat it blisters and pops similar to how aluminum melts ,absorbs heat then melts into a blob without warning. Advise you insulate with maybe some of that silver tubing with that meshed cloth on the inside or at least split wiring loom. Better off with a electric oil pressure sensor & gauge. Sure looks cool ! Are you going to use a fuel ratio gauge ? |
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Title: Re: Oil Pressure Post by batman on 06/07/19 at 04:28:31 Vercy's correct ,-Jet ,Oil Gallery 09493-36004 ,can't leave home without it, or installing it backward , or not at all, isn't good either. Mike , you might try running Rotella T-6 that may drop the press a bit at cold startup ,( Synthetic oil isn't as thick when cold and warms faster) and Vercy found 10w 50 oil to actually make the motor run hotter as compared to 10 w40 ,probably because of lower pressure and increased flow . While there is very low pressure at idle there is splash lubrication provided by the "bathtub" under the cam lobes. Many think that 50 w will protect their engines better in hotter climates and the opposite is true. 40 w oil flows better providing a thicker lay of oil between parts and the increased flow carries heat away at a faster rate.-(it's other job to act as a coolant) |
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Title: Re: Oil Pressure Post by DragBikeMike on 06/07/19 at 23:37:18 I see this "oil control orifice" Verslagen. I'm baffled. With an open bearing bottom end you need to restrict flow to all those ball & roller bearings otherwise all the pump output will simply dribble away through the lower end and no oil will flow to the top end. Need some pressure to force the oil up there. Do you happen to know if that oil control orifice is restricting flow to the bottom end? It's location would imply that it's restricting flow to the top end, but this little thumper's design has surprised me more than a time or two. Is there any sort of oil flow diagram available? I noted that there is a seal in the clutch cover that appears to engage the end of the crankshaft. I assumed that was the point where oil was forced into the crank to lubricate the rod bearing and probably also provides oil to the main bearings. On Harley's, folks install orifices in the crankshaft to control the flow of oil to the rod & mains. Installing a smaller orifice in the crankshaft increases pressure to the top end. Does anyone know if there is any sort of orifice in the right side of the crankshaft? Anyone got a crank laying around that they could take a peek in? Yes Rutly, I am working on an A/F ratio meter installation, but it will be a temporary setup just for test & tune. I will leave the O2 sensor installed but will remove the meter assembly after testing. It's a cheap narrow-band K&N unit and it's butt-ugly. If it works decent it will be invaluable when I install the S&S carb. I'm sure that will be a real challenge to tune and the A/F meter will most certainly make things easier. I have no plans to switch oil. I am very comfy with the Mobil 1 Synthetic V-Twin 20W-50. It's formulated for air-cooled engines, good for gearboxes and clutches. The LS650 owners manual lists 20W-50 as a suitable lubricant for the climate here in the islands, and virtually all manufacturers and refiners recommend heavier weight oil for elevated temperatures. I'm sure the Rotella is totally fine but I've got this fetish for the Mobil 1 product. Been runnin it for years. It's a love affair. |
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Title: Re: Oil Pressure Post by Dave on 06/08/19 at 03:36:17 The oil flow path was shown in this thread......looks like the pictures no longer open. I have a crank and engine that are on my bench......I will look around and see what I can figure out about what that small brass fitting does, and where it is limiting flow. DBM - Did you drill the center of your DR650 cam to open up the center hole to LS650 size? If not......our engines upper end oil pressure might even be less with an LS650 cam that has a larger center hole and holes in the cam lobes. |
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Title: Re: Oil Pressure Post by verslagen1 on 06/08/19 at 08:09:06 http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1151246239/0#1 |
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Title: Re: Oil Pressure Post by batman on 06/08/19 at 08:28:26 If I'm not mistaken ,the orifice restricts flow to the transmission area. Mike, 20w50 isn't rated for any higher temperature than 10w40 , Verslagen's test was done at his local, southern CA . I doubt your temperatures are any higher than his. You reference HD's but as you said they don't have overhead cams , and being long stroke motors have higher piston to wall speed for the same rpm as a Savage, the rear piston also suffers from a lack of cooling air ,all good reasons to use 20w50 , but they are not present in the Savage and the reason a 40w oil functions better in them. Your love affair may just be a habit ,you may be happy ,but is your bike? |
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Title: Re: Oil Pressure Post by verslagen1 on 06/08/19 at 09:04:09 686B7E676B643E320A0 wrote:
http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1283117891/0 |
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Title: Re: Oil Pressure Post by DragBikeMike on 06/08/19 at 12:08:22 Versy, thanks for those pics on the oil flow path. Very useful indeed. Did you, or anyone else, install an oil cooler? If so, how did it work? Given the pathetic pressure the system provides to the top end I imagine a cooler would be sort of a mixed bag. The big question would be does the increased pressure associated with cooler oil get offset by pressure drop across the cooler. What can anyone tell me about that? Thanks for looking at your engine Dave. LMK what you see in there. Regarding my DR cam, I did absolutely no drilling. I'm glad I installed the pressure gage in the location on the head cover. It gives some good insight into what's goin on in the top end. Has anyone installed a pressure gage in the plug in the crankcase? Would be interesting to see how things behave at the pump discharge. WOW! Now I see why there are numerous comments in here about "oil wars". That is one mean & nasty 15 page thread. It will take me a month to read and digest that post. Looks like some interesting reading if you can get past all the hate & discontent. |
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Title: Re: Oil Pressure Post by Ruttly on 06/08/19 at 12:23:45 OIL WARS ! Slowly I turn step by step ................. |
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Title: Re: Oil Pressure Post by Ruttly on 06/08/19 at 12:29:15 Oil is Oil Till you come here I learned so much about oil here A very serious topic here Big fun and yes someone gonna get hurt ! |
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Title: Re: Oil Pressure Post by Dave on 06/08/19 at 13:03:50 On the Savage - your gauge shows that it is obvious we don't need Oil Pressure......we need some flow to the bearings and cam. Those nearly zero pressure readings at your gauge are scary to see - however it is proven that as long as you keep the idle speed up enough to provide a bit of flow......the cam and rockers will survive just fine. (Provided the oil has a good amount of ZDDP). I don't know that any benefit would be achieved by using an oil cooler, as the engine doesn't get overly hot when it is moving - and when it is not moving (traffic) there will be little air flow through the oil cooler. The hottest my engine has ever been was a head temperature of 300 degrees - once was a slow 1st gear climb up a gravel mountain road, and the other was a grueling ride on Main Street in Gatlinburg (both of those events had 95+ degree air temperature). And in support of the "Oil Wars" theme - I don't have any problem with using 10W-40 or 20W-50 or 15W-40 or 5W-40....if the oil is suitable for wet clutches and has around 1,200 ppm of ZDDP. The differences in viscosity in summer riding conditions are minimal...none of them are going to result in an oil related failure or overheating. |
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Title: Re: Oil Pressure Post by Ruttly on 06/08/19 at 13:57:13 There is a point of slow flow that lets an oil cooler cool better and a point of faster flow that oil doesn’t cool as well due to passing thru these smaller coolers too fast. If I was racing one I would want a cooler. I believe that the extra capacity helps too , but either way they cool the oil. A cooler would need temp sender before and after to read its efficiency ! This is what makes the Savage an attractive bike to build is the engine is so to speak a self contained engine , no oil tank or cooler and it has a happy button ! |
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Title: Re: Oil Pressure Post by Dave on 06/08/19 at 17:10:58 I did some looking and poking....and here is what I believe happens. The oil comes out of the filter and then goes to the left and of the crankcase - and - a second passage goes up to the top gasket surface of the right cover. The cover has a passage that carries the oil to the passage that leads up to the head/head cover.......and a second passage that goes to the transmission. The only passage that has a brass restriction is the passage to the transmission - the flow to the crankshaft and head are only limited by the size of the passages themselves. The oil that goes into the right side of the crankshaft oils the lower end of the rod.....then the oil gets splashed to the cylinder/piston/upper rod bearing. The oil that drains from the head to the left front cylinder stud drop out in hole that is directly over the left crankshaft web - and it appears the web will provide an oil spray using the drained oil. The oil that stays inside the cam either comes out the holes in the lobes, or feeds out the right side and oils the cam chain. It also appears the bearing on the left side of the crankshaft gets oil from the random oil spray going into the hole in the left side of the crankshaft. So I believe the crank and cylinder head are not restricted...just the gearbox (which probably doesn't need much oil at idle or very low speeds). |
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Title: Re: Oil Pressure Post by batman on 06/09/19 at 15:20:12 I didn't intend to start an oil war . I believe like DAVE , that any oil with enough ZDDP of any weight will work in the Savage . The point I was trying to make concerned the comment made that the oil used was 20w50 due to high temperature , If you care to look in Clymer 's book you will find that both 10w40 or 20w50 afford the same protection at 104+ degrees. The fact that 20w50 runs 9 degrees hotter is of little concern , as this temperature does not exceed the brake down temperature of 500 degrees of synthetic oil. But perhaps we are looking at the wrong end of the horse, 80 % of wear occurs at startup , why ? Because the oil is cold, and thick and doesn't FLOW well . Isn't that what we are concerned with when it comes to protecting the Cam and rockers? well let's revisit our oils, 20w is rated to -10 ,10w to-20 , and 5w to-30 degrees. the oil I suggested was Rotella T-6 a 5w40 oil ,which oil do you believe will flow more easily and protect your motor better at cold startup ? It may show less pressure and MIGHT not peg a pressure gauge .( I think it still will),but I offered it as something that might be tried. A valve in the gauge line that could be turned of until the bike reached temperature ,might be better. It 's my OPINION , that an oil pressure gauge placed in the side case at the filter may be of use, as a lowering of oil pressure at this point may indicate a low oil level, or higher a plugging filter. An oil cooler introduces additional piping and wall friction again reducing flow, even more so in a bike who's final drive ratio has been changed buy chain or kawa pulley(s) as the speed and therefore the output flow, of the oil pump as been reduced by the same percentage, and the flow from the oil pump must be split between the filter and the cooler, the filter is needed, the cooler is not, based on the fact that even using a dino based oil (like Rotellla T-4 )that has a brake down temp of 350 degrees which our bikes never see even on the hottest day . So I'm not inclined to fix what isn't broke.( My opinion again).But to each his own ,it's your bike. |
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Title: Re: Oil Pressure Post by Dave on 06/10/19 at 04:28:17 383B2E373B346E625A0 wrote:
I don't want to prolong, extend or exaggerate the oil discussion - but I don't ride when it is -10, -20....or -30, and I doubt that DBM does either. The folks who commute year round on their bikes are likely affected by the winter rating of an oil - but the cold weather flow of oil has no affect on my motorcycle....if I can't walk out to the garage in a T-shirt, it is likely not a day I will start up the motorcycle and go riding. I suspect that at summer temperatures of 60-90 degrees, the viscosity difference of the oils at start up is negligible. I suspect most of us will never experience enough engine wear to justify worrying about these "top shelf" oils. It took Youzguyz 160,000 miles to wear out his valve guides to the point he needed to do something about it. I believe the first 60,000 miles was using Valvoline and the last 100,000 miles was Rotella. |
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Title: Re: Oil Pressure Post by batman on 06/10/19 at 16:29:18 Dave ,you can walk out to your garage in a t-shirt anytime it's heated. the object of the comparing the oils was to show that the 5&10 w oils to 20w was that 20w wasn't even considered to run below -30 degrees as doesn't flow well ,it's to thick , not that anyone would normally ride at those temperatures. but if you think your oil is warm at even a 90 degree day is not right either. If your bike's normal operating temp is 270+ degrees your only 1/3 of the way there at startup , and not even halfway to the temp where it viscosity is rated, 212 degrees. the 5w or 10 w will certainly flow easier, and come to temperature faster causing LESS wear. The sorry fact is there is no oil that will fully protect a motor from wear at startup . |
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Title: Re: Oil Pressure Post by DragBikeMike on 06/11/19 at 12:56:34 So I took it out this morning for an early morning spin. Ambient temp was pretty cool. I would estimate about 65 degrees. That makes a significant difference in oil pressure. I was surprised. It ran about 10 psi on the freeway, whereas previously it ran about 3 psi with ambient around 85 degrees. I figured it would eventually heat up and drop to 3 or 4 degrees but it didn't. Held steady at 10. That 20 degrees drop in ambient makes a bigger difference than I anticipated. About 15 years ago I fabricated an oil cooler. Never used it. I dug it out of my junk bin. Seems to me I could hook it up to the two ports Versy marked in his oil system diagram. If I did that, I could give it a whirl and see what effect it has on the pressure. Easy enough to remove if the pressure goes in the tank. From what I can gather from the diagram and the picture, it looks to me like there is one horizontal passage off the pump discharge in the engine case. That passage runs fore/aft. There is another vertical passage to the oil filter in the clutch cover running up/down. And last there is a short horizontal passage running right/left in the cover and case that connects the pump discharge passage to the filter passage. Seems to me if I want oil running out to the cooler and returning to the filter I would have to plug the passage running right/left that connects the pump discharge passage to the filter passage. The cooler would essentially connect the pump discharge to the filter. Do I have that right? It would be an interesting test and I think we could learn a few things from it. I noticed there is an outfit that sells temp gages that replace the filler cap. Anyone know anything about those? Do they work OK or do they fall apart and wreck your engine? With the pressure gage and the temp gage I think I could get some decent info on the cooler and how it affects the system. If it works lousy restoring to stock would be easy (just don't forget to remove that plug). Typically, you want an oil cooler downstream of the filter, not upstream. Only way I could pull that off on the savage would be to tie the cooler into the drain system somehow. I don't see that happening any time soon. Maybe when I yank the head off again to try the larger valves. Here's a shot of my old poor man's oil cooler. I think it might work OK. |
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Title: Re: Oil Pressure Post by verslagen1 on 06/11/19 at 13:25:46 Finding the banjo bolts wasn't easy. One is fairly common, subaru turbo charger, but the other... the only one I could find was a triumph. I'll have to look thru my records, and see if they fit. I would just put a restriction in the connecting port to get some flow in the cooler, but I would consider no restriction 1st and see how it goes. Those oil cap temp gages rely on oil splashing on it, so I can't say how reliable it will be. be sure to get the oil filled ones. I did try a stick on temperature gage and that did work for about a year or two, it fades. I stuck it on the clutch cover along the oil channel. |
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Title: Re: Oil Pressure Post by batman on 06/11/19 at 15:35:26 Wow, a 7 psi difference in pressure in the top end , The hottest part of the motor when FULLY WARMED at highway speeds , with only a 20 degree difference in outside temperature. I wonder what the cooler temperature of the bottom end did to the pressure/flow. My statement that no oil fully protects the bike at cold startup where 80% of wear occurs, isn't B.S. no matter what the outside temperature ,it's merely the truth. 20w oil will be molasses,5w or 10w will be maple syrup. You'd be better of installing a block heater, than an unneeded oil cooler. |
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Title: Re: Oil Pressure Post by Dave on 06/11/19 at 16:33:35 I believe that TrailTech has a nice selection of fittings. |
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