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SuzukiSavage.com
/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> Gas in my oil /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1550467125 Message started by JohnsonLager on 02/17/19 at 21:18:45 |
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Title: Gas in my oil Post by JohnsonLager on 02/17/19 at 21:18:45 Hi, I have gas in my oil. I have a 2008 Suzuki S40. I have previously replaced my petcock with a raptor (apprx 4 years ago). Symptoms my bike was displaying was struggling to start up in the morning (worse in cold weather 50 degrees and under). Issue progressed to struggling to start every day and most days drains the battery before it fires and will die at idle unless idle screw is set to idle very, very high. I've been researching on the site and leaning towards petcock being the problem and I will likely order a new one tomorrow. In the meantime, I removed the carb and will do at least a light cleaning. Other info: My air filter is overdue for a change, air filter box is run open, passage looks clean. Spark plug inspected and looks normal to me. I haven't adjusted the small gold screw on carb since problems started. Jets seem clean. Floats seem to move normal. Raptor looks normal and fuel flow is good out of petcock line and out of bottom of carb bowl. Battery recently tested as good. Also, I have an oil leak which has gotten worse since the gas/oil mix. My guess is petcock issue because when I replaced the stock petcock with the raptor I was having similar issues, but didn't think it was common for raptor to create similar issues. My inclination is something is creating a very rich mix, could the petcock be responsible for creating a rich enough mix to get into the oil? |
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Title: Re: Gas in my oil Post by justin_o_guy2 on 02/17/19 at 21:57:00 Official Yamaha Petcock No cheap knockoff. |
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Title: Re: Gas in my oil Post by Dave on 02/18/19 at 03:05:08 If you already have a Raptor petcock......do you turn it OFF when you are done riding? |
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Title: Re: Gas in my oil Post by JohnsonLager on 02/18/19 at 07:16:14 I can't recall buying the raptor, but I'm 90% sure it was official Yamaha. I have never turned the petcock off when not riding. I ride it as a daily commuter, 44k miles, but it has sat for period of 1 month or more at least 2 times in past 3-4 years. |
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Title: Re: Gas in my oil Post by Serowbot on 02/18/19 at 07:36:03 You may have a leaky float |
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Title: Re: Gas in my oil Post by JohnsonLager on 02/18/19 at 07:58:44 Serow- how can I check? |
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Title: Re: Gas in my oil Post by Gary_in_NJ on 02/18/19 at 07:58:50 The float valve is made of soft brass. Over time it wears and becomes misshaped, allowing fuel to get by. If the valve doesn't look like a sharp pencil, or if it looks like it has a step or should, then it should be replaced. For reference, the float valve is the plunger looking thing that moves in the carb body (needle valve) when the float moves. It's located under the adjustment "tang" |
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Title: Re: Gas in my oil Post by Dave on 02/18/19 at 08:29:10 153037312C3031133E383A2D5F0 wrote:
While it normally isn't necessary to turn the petcock off every time you stop - you should turn your petcock OFF at the end of each days riding. The vacuum operated petcock does it for you......with the manual Raptor petcock - it is your job. |
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Title: Re: Gas in my oil Post by verslagen1 on 02/18/19 at 08:44:09 6B4E494F524E4F6D40464453210 wrote:
Check for gas in your oil. |
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Title: Re: Gas in my oil Post by Serowbot on 02/18/19 at 08:47:16 0D282F293428290B26202235470 wrote:
Take the float out and shake it... If it's leaky you'll hear gas sloshing inside. |
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Title: Re: Gas in my oil Post by JohnsonLager on 02/18/19 at 12:30:00 I will check for sloshing inside float and I will take pictures and post them tonight. Serow - since I haven't ever turned the petcock off, is it safe to assume certain malfunctions have resulted? If so, which |
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Title: Re: Gas in my oil Post by Dave on 02/18/19 at 13:40:12 The fuel system runs by gravity. The fuel flows down to the carb and into the float bowl. When the fuel level in the float bowl rises it lifts the float, and it pushes the tapered needle up against the seat....and that is supposed to shut off the fuel flow. If there is a leak in the float, or if the float sticks because of some corrosion on the hinge, or if the needle or seat is damaged or corroded/eroded....or if there is some small piece of junk on the needle or seat - the fuel can continue to flow a small amount and overflow the float bowl. Sometimes there is a very slow seep and it causes no problem when the bike is running - but it can cause a problem when the engine is not running. Shutting off the petcock stops the flow and prevents an accidental overflow of the carb - back in the old days before vacuum petcocks, the owners manual instructed you to always turn off the petcock when you were done riding......in these modern days of automatic petcocks and fuel injected engines - riders have not learned to shut the petcock OFF like us old farts learned to do 50 years ago. |
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Title: Re: Gas in my oil Post by JohnsonLager on 02/18/19 at 20:34:49 http://i67.tinypic.com/2isjuoy.jpg |
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Title: Re: Gas in my oil Post by JohnsonLager on 02/18/19 at 20:35:32 http://i66.tinypic.com/91h15w.jpg |
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Title: Re: Gas in my oil Post by JohnsonLager on 02/18/19 at 20:37:52 http://i65.tinypic.com/6f88ee.jpg |
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Title: Re: Gas in my oil Post by JohnsonLager on 02/18/19 at 20:47:33 Sorry for the separate posts for each photo. Only updates is I didn't hear any sloshing inside the float and I didn't inspect the needle and seat too closely, but imo the float seems in good shape and moves freely and how I would expect it to move. When I manage to get this sob up and running I'll be sure to get in the habit of shutting the petcock off at night to let it get beauty rest. |
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Title: Re: Gas in my oil Post by youzguyz on 02/19/19 at 03:12:31 You need to check the float needle and seat AND the o-ring. See #21 here: https://www.ronayers.com/oemparts/a/suz/50d32fb5f8700232d0b3d91e/carburetor You can get all of those in a relatively cheap rebuild kit on ebay. (I had the o-ring fail on both my bikes) |
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Title: Re: Gas in my oil Post by JohnsonLager on 02/21/19 at 21:21:55 is float needle #19 or #25 Can anyone provide specific inspection instructions? Everything seems to be in working order to me, but to be honest, I'm not entire sure what I'm looking for. http://i64.tinypic.com/r6warl.jpg http://i64.tinypic.com/11trfox.jpg |
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Title: Re: Gas in my oil Post by ohiomoto on 02/22/19 at 09:05:00 The needle is the aluminum piece in your picture the brass tube it sits in is the seat. Those two pieces are part 19 in the diagram. Part 25 is the pin that holds the float (part 24). You will need to push the pin out and remove the float. The needle is clipped to the tab on the float. [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IAmEOM81R8E[/media] |
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Title: Re: Gas in my oil Post by batman on 02/22/19 at 09:44:47 And you should plug the drain line from the air box ,when left open when running it allows unfiltered air to enter motor ,causing damage.(a bolt and a plastic wire tie ,work for me ) Open and drain at oil change time. |
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Title: Re: Gas in my oil Post by Dave on 02/22/19 at 17:28:54 Push the pin out and remove the float, inspect the needle tip and make sure it is not damaged and is still pliable (it is soft rubber or Viton). Then remove the screw that holds the seat in place and remove the seat and make sure the O-ring is in good shape. You may not have a serious problem......if the gas leaked in over 2 months of sitting you may just have a slow tiny seep - and shutting the petcock off at the end of each ride may resolve your problems. |
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Title: Re: Gas in my oil Post by batman on 02/23/19 at 00:13:59 The pin for the float only comes out in one direction (look for the head on one end of the pin) |
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Title: Re: Gas in my oil Post by JohnsonLager on 02/24/19 at 21:41:15 Tried to remove the pin tonight, no luck. Will try again tomorrow and borrow a spring punch like used in the video |
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Title: Re: Gas in my oil Post by JohnsonLager on 02/27/19 at 19:00:43 I got the pin out and here's what I'm looking at. I'm struggling to get this seat screw out. I'm going to borrow a better screw driver. Tip seems to be in good shape to me. http://i65.tinypic.com/28hhkbc.jpg http://i65.tinypic.com/33lco4h.jpg |
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Title: Re: Gas in my oil Post by verslagen1 on 02/27/19 at 19:11:19 What you need is a impact screwdriver... a smaller version of an impact driver. Harbor freight used to have them, not sure this is the same size. https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07MYYL8RC/ref=sspa_dk_detail_2?psc=1&pd_rd_i=B07MYYL8RC |
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Title: Re: Gas in my oil Post by justin_o_guy2 on 02/27/19 at 19:47:59 Pick one https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=handheld+impact+screwdriver&id=77F8239254043752B83AF72BA725BBD2A3A41188&FORM=IQFRBA |
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Title: Re: Gas in my oil Post by ohiomoto on 02/28/19 at 07:36:40 Leave the seat in there and buy a new float needle. You can clearly see that needle in worn in the picture. It has a groove worn into the rubber where is mates with the seat. Needle seats really don't need to be replaced unless the show damage from corrosion and your's looks perfect. Trying to remove it is unnecessary and may cause more damage than good. On a side note: I'm actually surprised that so many of our forum members encourage people to fix things that aren't broke. Most of these guys and gals are very experienced and should know better. >:( |
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Title: Re: Gas in my oil Post by batman on 02/28/19 at 16:08:22 Ohio. the valve and seat are made and sold as a matched set, the reason to pull the seat is not mainly because of wear but to check / or replace, the rubber O-ring ,if it leaks by the carb will flood regardless of the condition of the float/ float valve. |
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Title: Re: Gas in my oil Post by Eegore on 02/28/19 at 21:07:51 I don't like bats, and I definitely don't have an affinity for men, but in this case I can say batman has got my vote. |
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Title: Re: Gas in my oil Post by Dave on 03/01/19 at 04:48:50 Yep - Bats is right.....and there is a screen filter on top of the seat that might/could use some cleaning. |
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Title: Re: Gas in my oil Post by batman on 03/01/19 at 11:49:31 What Dave said! |
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Title: Re: Gas in my oil Post by JohnsonLager on 03/02/19 at 12:49:29 I got the screw out holding in the seat and now working on getting the seat itself out. I remember reading how someone did this to make sure they didn't damage it but can't remember exactly how. Gonna try to look it to before i start using a pliers. Pictures to come of screen and seat tonight |
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Title: Re: Gas in my oil Post by JohnsonLager on 03/02/19 at 20:24:54 Ok, I made a lot of progress. Took most of the carb apart and cleaned it. Notes: significant dirt on screen the diaphragm seems loose to me (does seat well) dirt behind the main jet I reset the brass mix screw to 2 turns out. I was significantly more than that. Right now, I'm debating which parts I'm going to replace. I'm on a budget, but don't want to regret not doing the job right and having the same problem after I reassemble. http://i64.tinypic.com/x1xglc.jpg http://i63.tinypic.com/zoee.jpg http://i67.tinypic.com/21kyn3c.jpg http://i67.tinypic.com/2s6pwg6.jpg http://i63.tinypic.com/2wrn7h0.jpg |
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Title: Re: Gas in my oil Post by batman on 03/02/19 at 21:31:55 The screen just sits on a ledge on the valve seat and lifts straight off for cleaning (back flushing). |
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Title: Re: Gas in my oil Post by badwolf on 03/02/19 at 21:39:45 I just went thru my carb when I put the new cam chain on at 81,000. The wear on your slide looks same as mine, normal. If the rubber diafram on top the slide has no cracks or leaks that is good to go. ( On that note, be sure to put the spring UNDER the needle clip on re-assembly, it will run too lean and surge, with no top end if it's over the clip. Guess how I know.) The dirt does NOT belong anywhere in the carb and can cause a LOT of issues. Blow out all the passages with carb cleaner or spray brake cleaner, and if your not sure a passageway is clear unravel a piece of electrical wire and take a strand of the copper and poke it thru. When it comes to carbs, cleanlyness is the best tune-up! |
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Title: Re: Gas in my oil Post by Dave on 03/03/19 at 03:50:35 Clean everything, and make sure you can see daylight through the small holes in the jets before you put them back in. (Are you changing jet sizes and doing the white spacer mod while the bike is apart?) At a minimum the needle should be replaced (the rubber tip has a noticeable groove in your photograph). They are usually sold in a matched set....however I doubt the brass seat has any damage. When a slide is worn like that - I spray a coating of dry graphite on it - but it most likely wears off pretty quickly anyhow and may not help much....but it makes me feel better. Turning the idle fuel screw out 1.5 - 2 turns is a good starting point - but you need to adjust it by "ear" with the engine running. Have you ever drained the oil breather reservoir in the air box? There is a tube that come from the bottom of the air box that goes down to the back of the engine, and it is supposed to have a cap on the end of the tube. When you change your oil you should drain the breather.....then put the cap back on. |
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Title: Re: Gas in my oil Post by ohiomoto on 03/03/19 at 04:22:11 Replace the slide. That's what mine looked like and it was sticky. I bet there are a lot of people on here who have been tricked into thinking they had jetting issues that had sticky slides. Mine had me poking around a little bit before I realized what was happening. As for the needle and seat, yeah sure that rubber is machined to such a high tolerance that it surely needs a perfectly matching seat. ::) ::) |
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Title: Re: Gas in my oil Post by JohnsonLager on 03/04/19 at 14:38:15 I cleaned the carb thoroughly and can post photos post cleaning. I am not rejetting. I have 153.8 main jet and a 52.5 pilot. Until this issue of running rich, those sizes seemed to have worked well for me. I haven't and wasn't planning on doing the white spacer mod. I've heard getting those screws back in is a headache and not too interested in tackling that task unless highly recommended. Valve needle assemble is what we're talking about right? On ron ayers it's running $53.57 What slide is ohiomoto referring to getting sticky? I reset the idle fuel screw out to 2 turns and will adjust once it's up and running again I'm pretty sure the oil breather is uncapped and probably responsible for the dirt in the carb or my dirty air filter or both. When I was struggling to get my bike started/dealing with a rich mix I noticed a couple drops of gas coming out of the breather tube. I only noticed this that last few times. There was oil on the tube as well but I think that was from my oil leak i don't think it was leaking oil from the tube, only gas. Right now, I'm about 90% sure I'm going to purchase the needle assembly and put it back together, start turning the petcock off at the end of the day hope for the best. Additionally, I am about to take the cylinder head cover off, reseal and install a helycoil and might make a second post if any issues to attempt to address my oil leak. If I come across any issues there I'll be making a second post to seek advice. Thanks for all the help so far, it's much appreciated. |
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Title: Re: Gas in my oil Post by verslagen1 on 03/04/19 at 15:55:01 there's a carb rebuild kit on fleabay that contains a float valve for about $20 might contain the valve, a gasket and a couple other things. |
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Title: Re: Gas in my oil Post by ohiomoto on 03/05/19 at 05:59:23 The diaphragm assembly. It's not cheap, but it critical to engine performance/throttle response. https://www.partzilla.com/product/suzuki/13500-24B40?ref=790f88abdec56396303b1425fd57f921253c88a9 |
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Title: Re: Gas in my oil Post by JohnsonLager on 03/09/19 at 12:30:56 thanks verslagen1. I'm thinking that's the route I'm going to go. Does anyone have experience buying those rebuild kits off ebay? I'm seeing a few different options. One from taiwan for $12 that I'm making some assumptions on it quality and others that ship from the states that range from $15-40+ https://www.ebay.com/itm/Suzuki-LS650-650-86-08-Savage-05-09-Boulevard-S40-Carb-Carburetor-Rebuild-Kit-/222346426250 |
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Title: Re: Gas in my oil Post by batman on 03/09/19 at 17:13:44 The rebuild kits from Japan ,may contain jets that were made for the 400 cc Tempter , a bike not sold here but shares nearly the same bottom end as the Savage, all other parts should work , and jets run less than $10 each. The jets for the smaller bike are 47.5/135(kit) - jets for the Savage (newer 95 and up) 52.5/145. |
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Title: Re: Gas in my oil Post by verslagen1 on 03/09/19 at 22:50:24 Typically what is said about the rebuild kits are the jets are more precise from the OEM. More critical when you have multiple carbs, but what we have found is there are several variations by the year. What you get with the kit you buy is not likely to be the one you want. I would stick to kits w/out jets unless you get a really good price. And $12 for a full kit is a good price. |
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Title: Re: Gas in my oil Post by Matchless G11 on 03/10/19 at 05:57:34 6B505D4A5B574C4A5159544B380 wrote:
old school trick I do when I arrive for the night or know I will be putting the bike away for a extended period of inactivity > 1 month. Is when nearing my destination I will close the petcock to run the fuel bowl low/ dry. The distance depends on the bike, the PuchI almost have to be in the driveway but the matchless 1/4 mile from the home. [/color] |
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Title: Re: Gas in my oil Post by Dave on 03/10/19 at 10:05:48 7C656B6B3D3D7E6978696F673F38390C0 wrote:
I do that every time I approach my house at the end of the ride. The STOP sign at the end of the street is my signal to shut off the petcock, and by the time I start down my drive the bike starts to sputter. My bike is stored with a nearly empty float bowl - which provides very little ethanol swill to corrode anything. |
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