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SuzukiSavage.com
/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> Screeching sound, weird noise on shifting into fir /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1539355284 Message started by jjthejetplane on 10/12/18 at 07:41:23 |
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Title: Screeching sound, weird noise on shifting into fir Post by jjthejetplane on 10/12/18 at 07:41:23 I recently installed: a new cam chain tensioner, clutch plates, and new pushrod, oil filter, spark plug, cleaned the air filter and carburetor AND finally started and rode my bike after almost 2 years. Shifting out of neutral into first gear it is making a strange sound-like a car trying to start but not catching. I thought perhaps it wasn't getting enough oil bc I thought I heard a knocking sound. I asked my coworker to ride it also so he could confirm and I could record. He kept asking if I'd removed the left gearbox bc he was hearing the sound there. I did not. There was no reason to. I'm going to add some videos but I couldn't quite capture the screeching sound that I heard on shifting. He confirmed that he heard it upon starting ie shifting into first from neutral. Any ideas?? Thanks Oh, yeah- I changed the oil twice yesterday bc I heard knocking on the initial ride and noticed it still had water(looked like mud) and put fresh oil in before taking it out again and making some clutch, throttle, and carb adjustments. It was heated sufficiently to backfire on the way back in. We prob rode it less than 2mi combined just doing loops in the lot. Anyway, all help appreciated. |
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Title: Re: Screeching sound, weird noise on shifting into Post by batman on 10/12/18 at 17:43:36 Noise can always be heard shifting into first from neutral , because it's the only time transmission gears aren't moving and therefore don'twant to mesh. |
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Title: Re: Screeching sound, weird noise on shifting into Post by jjthejetplane on 10/13/18 at 09:13:19 Couldn't get the other videos to upload but hopefully this helps https://youtu.be/J8OoLDLEdi8 This is with the choke pulled out. It dies when puahed in. Made some adjustments to the idle and throttle but this is where I am currently. |
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Title: Re: Screeching sound, weird noise on shifting into Post by Yoshi on 10/13/18 at 10:01:27 With the amount of work you did this noise could be anything I’d rotate the crank by hand and check your valve lash first, make sure all your timing marks line up correctly |
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Title: Re: Screeching sound, weird noise on shifting into Post by jjthejetplane on 10/13/18 at 10:40:01 Meaning- pull the engine? I know it may seem as if I know what im doing but a lot of this is confidence inspired by Justinoguy and this forum. I went from "how do I clean a carb" to "ok, maybe, I can rebuild this clutch" over the course of the 2-3yrs I've been posting. That said, I'm good with my hands but dont have a wide breadth of mechanical knowledge. I do, however, have access to a pretty full garage and some Harley techs. I also have a clymers manual but I honestly don't know where to start. Any help is welcomed. Thanks |
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Title: Re: Screeching sound, weird noise on shifting into Post by GOF on 10/13/18 at 13:55:49 I have to ask. How did water get in your oil? When you say "Looked like mud" what do you mean? Did it look like one of the girly fufu coffee drinks that are mostly milk and sugar? Maybe kinda foamy? |
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Title: Re: Screeching sound, weird noise on shifting into Post by jjthejetplane on 10/13/18 at 15:26:56 I pulled the clutch cover off a yr or so ago and didn't realize that it wasn't properly sealed when putting it back on. It sat outside-partially covered and got rained on. So, when I went in to pull the old clutch, the bottom of the case had some oily sludge and about half of my oil can was full of water. When I say looked like mud, think of a cup of coffee with a couple of hits of creamer-no foam. I drained it and added new oil. I expected some moisture. Update: my battery completely died on me so I will be switching that out. Also, I didn't notice the knocking when I gpt it started a few wks ago and blow a hole in the oil cover but didnt really have the bike on long... |
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Title: Re: Screeching sound, weird noise on shifting into Post by GOF on 10/13/18 at 16:36:45 It's always a crap shoot when you have an engine sit that long with water in it. No telling what has rust on it. |
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Title: Re: Screeching sound, weird noise on shifting into Post by jjthejetplane on 10/13/18 at 17:03:08 Solutions? Suggestions? I will take a stethoscope and check out the engine tmrw. Will prob also do a valve check. |
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Title: Re: Screeching sound, weird noise on shifting into Post by batman on 10/13/18 at 17:19:01 Blowing a hole in the oil filter cover is caused by putting the oil filter in backward , at that point you had no oil pressure to the motor( and the bearings and passages were empty if you just changed the oil and filter). It's hard to tell where the noise is coming from ,but it could be valve timing (the valves to far advanced or tight or the tensioner isn't working), or a lose nut holding the flywheel( that sound usually subsides with higher rpm) or you've done some real damage due to oil starvation . I'd check before running it again. |
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Title: Re: Screeching sound, weird noise on shifting into Post by jjthejetplane on 10/23/18 at 06:46:29 I'm waiting on a stethoscope. I had two diff mechanics give me very differing opinions on where the sound is originating from. Both are sure it is coming from the motor and not the clutch cover ie tensioner but one is telling me rod knock and the other is saying top left end, valves. I've read up on valve adjustments and watched several videos listening to all of the different "oh no" sounds the Savage makes and the knocking that I'm hearing doesn't sound as tinny as the sound coming from the valve videos I've seen. The posts I've found here in the forum in relation to rod knocking have also varied in opinion with most agreeing that the issue is a very rare occurrence and usually something more common like a loose flywheel nut. Now, I'm thinking that maybe due to circumstance-my bike may be that rare example of a for lack of better term dry-rotted engine with a rod knock. How do I go about fixing this issue? Will it be cheaper/easier for me to buy an engine? Could I buy the replacement parts and attempt the rebuild myself? Would you guys part out the bike and buy another? This is my only means of transportation. I've been sharing a car for the last 6 months. And I have put a lot of time and energy into reviving my baby. I need help guys. I was advised to replace the bearings and then have the crank machined and cleaned up. I don't know any machinists off the top of my head and it seems like a pretty insurmountable task. (I've accomplished the impossible with this bike 3x already though.) Anyone know anyone with a parts bike? or parts? equipment? Also, generally speaking, if there is an issue with my bearings-there may be other issues, no? Side note: When I replaced the spark plug, I didn't clean it or prepare it in anyway before installation. Could that be contributing to the issues I'm having and do I need a new spark plug? |
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Title: Re: Screeching sound, weird noise on shifting into Post by jjthejetplane on 10/23/18 at 07:15:14 http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1504971796/7 "so my engine now has this horrible loud engine knock that I can only describe as rod knock. You can hear it a little while idling, start to really hear it when giving the engine a quick rev, and then can hear it from 2 blocks away when you put the engine under load (such as starting out in 1st)." http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1426644682 "I had a different clunk, probably typically called piston slap. the piston had burned and squeezed down on the rings. Still ran, couldn't find the cause till we tore it down. the small burn spot was visible from the top, if you had 1 of those eyeballs on a stick that'll fit inside the plug hole." With the flywheel nut tight, and the cam chain secure....there really are just a couple things left to check. A few members have had cam lobe and rocker wear from using oils that are too low in ZDDP levels. Our bike does not have rollers on the rockers and the newer oils don't have an adequate level of ZDDP to prevent failure. This sound is more on the top end and sounds like really noisy valve clearance. You would need to remove the cylinder head cover to look at this....and it would be a good time to renew the seal on the rubber plug over the right front cylinder stud - which can cause a serious oil leak issue.-verslagen "There also have been several members whose piston is loose and making a lot of noise. If you don't find anything wrong with the cam or rockers then you need to pull the cylinder and see what it going on with the piston. With the cylinder off you can check the condition of the rod and crankshaft. If the piston is bad you can upgrade to a Wiseco if you want to spend money for the upgrade....or used piston/cylinders can be found for a reasonable amount."-dave |
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Title: Re: Screeching sound, weird noise on shifting into Post by Dave on 10/23/18 at 07:24:50 08031B0707100D11620 wrote:
These "mechanics" obviously have never been inside a Savage, and have no idea what is going on inside this engine. The Savage has roller and ball bearings and there is no machining to "clean up" the bearing surfaces. (Except for the issue with the water in your crankcase which may have damaged the crank or bearings......the crankshafts in this bike last forever and other things go bad long before the crankshaft fails). However - having an engine with water and rust in the crankcase could have ruined the crank and bearings - but there is nothing to machine....you just find a good used one and replace the bad one and use new ball and roller bearings on both ends of the crank. I really have no idea how to help you out of this issue - there just doesn't seem to be anybody in your area that knows enough about your bike to be reliably helpful and make a believable diagnosis. |
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Title: Re: Screeching sound, weird noise on shifting into Post by jjthejetplane on 10/23/18 at 07:34:33 I have arrived at that conclusion myself. I am hoping that my friend brings the stethoscope today. In the meantime, I am reading all I can and looking at diagrams of the engine. Help for me would look like-if (a) is the issue look here or try this. or if (b) is the issue read this and try this. Right now, I have no real idea of where to start. Only that I hear a knocking I shouldn't and I have to try to fix it. I know to check valve clearances. I know to check the flywheel nut. And there are proverbial "how to's" for those. In the case that it is "rod knock" how do I go about checking/diagnosing that? And what parts would need replacing? Looking at a diagram of the engine, there is nothing in the jug. If the noise is coming from the lower end should i be looking at crank shaft components? There aren't any Suzuki motorcycle dealers near me and I ran into this same issue when trying to diagnose my clutch but I was able to get it out and working. I know i can do this with just a little help. :'( |
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Title: Re: Screeching sound, weird noise on shifting into Post by GOF on 10/23/18 at 07:45:04 You could pull the side covers off and inspect everything you can get to there. Recheck any work you have already done. I'm still concerned that the engine sat with water in it. If you do open it up post pictures. Maybe someone will spot something. |
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Title: Re: Screeching sound, weird noise on shifting into Post by Dave on 10/23/18 at 07:47:17 Unfortunately a knocking sound can come from many places, and they are not always easy to identify the source by just listening. Knocks are generally created when there is excess clearance somewhere - and the sound can be easily transmitted to other engine parts without identifying exactly where the "bang" originates. As an example - my bike had a horrible knock that could be heard from a block away. It started out as just a tick when the bike only had 400 miles on it - by the time the bike had 1,200 miles the engine sounded like it was coming apart. You could not isolate where the noise was located, as the sound seemed to come from everywhere. I started at the top of the engine and took things apart looking for the source, and unfortunately I got the engine almost completely apart before I found out the flywheel nut was loose. The flywheel would rock back and forth on the crankshaft with every power pulse - but the sound is transmitted to the crankshaft and travels through the bearings and into the engine block...so the entire engine block would pulse with the sound. You really need a good mechanical mentor to help you learn how to analyse and diagnose this issue - somebody who can actually be there to listen and look with you. (Where do you live?). |
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Title: Re: Screeching sound, weird noise on shifting into Post by jjthejetplane on 10/23/18 at 08:20:32 "However - having an engine with water and rust in the crankcase could have ruined the crank and bearings - but there is nothing to machine....you just find a good used one and replace the bad one and use new ball and roller bearings on both ends of the crank." Please excuse my ignorance-but what are these parts? ball and roller bearing? I can't find them on google easily. This is essentially the gist of my question. What needs to be replaced if the rod knock is indeed the issue. I know how to adjust the valves and how to tighten the flywheel nut but what parts would need replacing in the event i need to order stuff for the engine (without swapping out) or in lieu of a rebuild kit. |
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Title: Re: Screeching sound, weird noise on shifting into Post by jjthejetplane on 10/23/18 at 08:22:42 I'm in Atlanta. I work at a HD, with Eaglerider. The only mechanics I have around me are HD techs. |
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Title: Re: Screeching sound, weird noise on shifting into Post by Dave on 10/23/18 at 08:47:26 4249514D4D5A475B280 wrote:
The crankshaft is two halves that are pressed together with the rod in between - they can be separated and a new rod and bearings installed, however it takes knowledgeable folks with good tools, and it easier/cheaper to buy a good used crank. The crankshaft has a roller bearing on the left side, and a ball bearing on the left side. When you take the engine apart the roller bearing and inner race stay on the left side - while the left side outer race and right side ball bearing stays in the engine cases. Here is what a crankshaft and a left side roller bearing look like: https://www.ebay.com/itm/1998-Suzuki-Savage-650-LS650P-ENGINE-MOTOR-CRANKSHAFT-CRANK-SHAFT/323504262830?hash=item4b525b4eae:g:qZgAAOSwE9Bbx4D5:rk:14:pf:0&vxp=mtr Do you have a Clymer workshop manual for the Savage? |
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Title: Re: Screeching sound, weird noise on shifting into Post by ohiomoto on 10/23/18 at 09:25:32 Sounds like a horrible rod knock to me and I would bet on that it's the upper rod bearing because of the sound. Crank bearings normally don't knock that loudly and a lower end bearing would most likely have a deeper tone too it. The upper bearing is the smallest bearing in there and it is the most likely to rust in the presence of moisture because it is exposed to oxygen. The lower rod bearing and main bearings are larger and likely covered in oil/water which means they would most likely not fail as soon as the rod bearing. If my suspicions are correct, you might be able to fix it with as little as a wrist pin, upper rod bearing, and a few gaskets. I would be worried about the rest of the engine parts, but if you don't have the money you could tear it down and try it. I would probably hone the cylinder and throw a set of rings in it while it's apart. Of course, this is just a guess. It's what I would expect to find if I took it apart. You can do this for a fair bit of work and a little bit of money. If things look worse as it comes apart, you can do a full rebuild, look for a used motor or even another bike. If it looks like you can do it on the cheap, cross your fingers and hope the rest of the bearings don't fail prematurely. |
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Title: Re: Screeching sound, weird noise on shifting into Post by ohiomoto on 10/23/18 at 09:27:46 Also, any HD tech would be able to handle this. Just educate them on the things you want to eliminate before ripping it apart. Like the flywheel bolt, etc. |
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Title: Re: Screeching sound, weird noise on shifting into Post by jjthejetplane on 10/23/18 at 10:24:41 Yes, I have a Clymer's manual. Upper rod bearing wrist pin? Any pics or part numbers? Thank you for the info guys. |
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Title: Re: Screeching sound, weird noise on shifting into Post by ohiomoto on 10/23/18 at 10:37:26 https://www.partzilla.com/catalog/suzuki/motorcycle/2004/savage-ls650p/crankshaft Part 22 is the pin. Don't see the bearing which is odd. It should look like a smaller version of Part 4. |
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Title: Re: Screeching sound, weird noise on shifting into Post by verslagen1 on 10/23/18 at 10:44:26 no bearing for the wrist pin. |
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Title: Re: Screeching sound, weird noise on shifting into Post by ohiomoto on 10/23/18 at 10:49:26 Uhg, that is probably not good news. Parts 1 and 22 then! LOL Or craigslist. |
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Title: Re: Screeching sound, weird noise on shifting into Post by jjthejetplane on 10/23/18 at 11:06:23 PIN, PISTON 12151-14A01 And am I to understand that it has no bearing as in I don't need to worry about purchasing that part? So essentially, the crankshaft (good, used if it can be found) and the wrist pin with a set of gaskets. IF it is a lower end knock. also, a used Crankshaft if it is a ball and roller bearing? In the meantime, checking valves, rechecking tensioner, and whatever i can see from the top end whilst still in the frame. From there, if no visible issues, check flywheel, and if nothing there, start tearing down the engine? Am i following? |
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Title: Re: Screeching sound, weird noise on shifting into Post by Dave on 10/23/18 at 11:20:33 6A61796565726F73000 wrote:
Do not buy anything until you have isolated what the problem is, and what parts will be needed for the repair. You need somebody qualified to look at this engine and do a diagnosis. I know this doesn't sound very helpful - but buying parts and randomly replacing things does not guarantee success. |
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Title: Re: Screeching sound, weird noise on shifting into Post by jjthejetplane on 10/23/18 at 11:40:06 Not buying any parts just trying to price things and plot out a work timeline. I have to move my bike out of the garage in about a wk as we are closing up for the winter season so, trying to get as much done as I can while I have access to a lift and all the tools i need. I just want to be sure of what may potentially lie ahead. I will be going through the aforementioned steps first. I'll try to post pics tmrw. |
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Title: Re: Screeching sound, weird noise on shifting into Post by jjthejetplane on 10/23/18 at 11:40:36 Thanks everyone! |
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Title: Re: Screeching sound, weird noise on shifting into Post by jjthejetplane on 10/23/18 at 11:41:43 One last question-Say I am unable to get this repair done in the next wk. How much damage am I looking at if I ride it until I can replace the (potentially damaged) crankshaft and bearings. |
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Title: Re: Screeching sound, weird noise on shifting into Post by ohiomoto on 10/23/18 at 11:56:40 Listen to Dave!!! Here is the issue. It sounds like a rod knock (to me), but you have to take the top end apart to confirm this. (Before doing so, confirm the other items suggested are not the issue.) Since there is no upper bearing (which kills me to know) you will most likely find that the piston pin and the rod are damaged. Now, the cheapish top end job I suggested you might get by on has turned into a full teardown and more parts. At that point, or maybe at this point, you might be better off buying another motor or donor bike. |
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Title: Re: Screeching sound, weird noise on shifting into Post by ohiomoto on 10/23/18 at 11:59:36 414A524E4E5944582B0 wrote:
If the noise is what I think it is. I would NOT ride it at all. If that rod snaps it will destroy the engine and it could lock up. If that thing locks up while you are riding it, it could kill you. The rear wheel could lock up and there is no guarantee that pulling in the clutch will save you. |
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Title: Re: Screeching sound, weird noise on shifting into Post by jjthejetplane on 10/23/18 at 12:10:32 Enough said. I was told by the master mechanic here and my boss, " sounds like a rod knocking, ride it til it dies" I don't want to die with it. Thanks. |
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Title: Re: Screeching sound, weird noise on shifting into Post by ohiomoto on 10/23/18 at 12:13:51 Yeah, they are idiots (in matters of riding motorcycles). Tell them to go out on the highway and lock up the rear wheel at 60. No clutch and no letting off the rear brake. If they live to tell you about it ask them what's in their underwear. In a car, yes, I even did it once, but not a motorcycle. I use to race motocross and when things lock up, you usually hit the ground. (Sometimes you can pull the clutch and roll out...sometimes.) No as big a deal in the dirt without cars around you. Out on the road?? I pray it never happens to me out there. It sounds like you need transportation. If I were in your shoes, I would confirm the easy suggestions like the flywheel bolt is not the problem. If it's not, I would buy the first $1000-$1500 used Savage I could find. You will likely be putting $1000 plus in your bike plus downtime. You will have transportation and you can then swap motors or your custom parts to build the bike you want. When you are done, you can part out the rest on here and recoup the bulk of your money. Folks on here are always looking for good seats, gas tanks, side covers, forks, engine parts, etc. |
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Title: Re: Screeching sound, weird noise on shifting into Post by justin_o_guy2 on 10/23/18 at 13:41:22 It had water in it. I'd dump the oil into a clean container and run a magnet through it. If it only gets noisy when you put it in gear, that sounds like clutch issues. Does it try to walk forward? Does it continue to screech if you're rolling in gear? Does it sound like it's not healthy revving it up in neutral? |
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Title: Re: Screeching sound, weird noise on shifting into Post by jjthejetplane on 10/24/18 at 05:17:15 It does not creep forward. There is no knocking coming from.the clutch cover at all. With the stethoscope, all agree that the sound is coming from.the top left end. Realized that my head cap nut was loose but my battery keeps dying(thinking there is a draw somewhere) so, once I shut it off, I left it to charge til morning. And with the stethoscope in hand, the techs are now saying my engine itself sounds fine. So, once I get a break at work today, I'm going to take the cap off, start it up, and listen for any knocking. Is it possible that the bike needed to be run a bit? Or maybe the cap was the source... I'll let you know shortly. |
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Title: Re: Screeching sound, weird noise on shifting into Post by jjthejetplane on 10/24/18 at 05:21:07 Also, once the bike is being ridden and at higher rpms, the screeching would disappear. I would only hear the sound again as I was downshifting into first. Shifting out of neutral into first and my shifter is vibrating and hard shifting down. This was two days ago when I tried to take it around the lot to listen to it. It died at the bottom of the hill so I couldnt investigate further. The battery went kaput. Charged it all night and came back to a still dark bike. I plugged it into another charger and it read at 100%. At which point, I started it while still plugged into the charger to listen with the stethoscope. |
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Title: Re: Screeching sound, weird noise on shifting into Post by ohiomoto on 10/24/18 at 05:24:25 That would be awesome if that's all it was. That's why you should always listen to Dave's advice first! Make sure you cover the simple things before moving on to the doomsdayer's advice. |
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Title: Re: Screeching sound, weird noise on shifting into Post by justin_o_guy2 on 10/24/18 at 07:28:34 Still recommend dumping the oil into a clean container and running a magnet through it. |
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Title: Re: Screeching sound, weird noise on shifting into Post by jjthejetplane on 10/24/18 at 10:28:39 cap off and I can still hear the tapping at the top left side of the engine and top left of the crankcase. i am thinking valve adjustment. I didn't hear anything on the right side of the bike at all besides the echoes. |
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Title: Re: Screeching sound, weird noise on shifting into Post by ohiomoto on 10/24/18 at 10:37:37 That's the right idea. Check the valve adjustment, adjust if needed. If it takes care of it great. If not move along to the next item. (I'm still convinced it's a rod knock based on how loud it is, but that's just an educated guess.) If/once you solve the knocking issue, follow JOG's advice and change the oil again to get rid of any contaminants. |
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Title: Re: Screeching sound, weird noise on shifting into Post by jjthejetplane on 10/24/18 at 11:11:03 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E2t-v77ejpA Anyone familiar with this bike? It's the only one I've found with a similar sound. I'm going to have the techs check it out again sans cap. |
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Title: Re: Screeching sound, weird noise on shifting into Post by justin_o_guy2 on 10/24/18 at 12:10:23 If you Can't hear the valves, they are too tight. IDK if the decompression setup can play into this. |
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Title: Re: Screeching sound, weird noise on shifting into Post by jjthejetplane on 10/24/18 at 13:09:37 Just had the tech over and we went thru the bike with the stethoscope listening to it idle, listening at the clutch cover, the crank, the cylinder head, etc. His conclusion is it is coming from the shiftshaft transmission. He cannot tell me what this means as he is not familiar with the bike. He had me put the bike into first and listened again at the shift shaft transmission and said that the rattling is definitely coming from there. he said it does not sound like a rod knock . Up until i started revving the bike a bit, he didnt hear the "knock". At higher rpms, the sound is more pronounced. I have to wait until tmrw to do the valve adjustment now. Can anyone enlighten me as to what the shift shaft transmission does and how it may relate to this noise? |
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Title: Re: Screeching sound, weird noise on shifting into Post by jjthejetplane on 10/24/18 at 13:10:14 also, I have the old oil from my last oil change a few days ago. I will run a magnet over that tmrw and see what i find. |
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Title: Re: Screeching sound, weird noise on shifting into Post by jjthejetplane on 10/24/18 at 13:28:14 shift shaft transmission same as shift rod? http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1249823029 |
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Title: Re: Screeching sound, weird noise on shifting into Post by justin_o_guy2 on 10/24/18 at 14:41:11 Sounds like the water caused rust in the transmission somewhere. I'm just guessing of course. I would not go fast or far and dressed for disaster and Always have a finger on the clutch. Someone has split the cases and might have a better idea what is going on. How much water was in it? |
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Title: Re: Screeching sound, weird noise on shifting into Post by verslagen1 on 10/24/18 at 15:26:34 As far as I know, all the gears rotate all the time. The gears are on 2 shafts and are engaged all the time. As you shift, 1 dog engages a gear and 1 disengages. So, if it only occurs in 1st, then it must have to do with 1st. 1st is on the end, maybe it's rubbing on the case? Another happy fact, all bearings are on the case and should be inspect-able. |
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Title: Re: Screeching sound, weird noise on shifting into Post by batman on 10/25/18 at 17:19:52 The external shift mechanism, is located low on the left side casing,behind the front drive pulley ,perhaps water found it's way in when the motor was flooded. I might try pulling the seal around the shaft (you'll need a new one) , and lean the bike to see if water comes out ,(nothing should, these parts should have only a light film of oil sprayed on them when assembled) . but water may be evidence of rust damage and may defeat complete shift drum rotation ,causing noise. |
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