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/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Politics, Religion (Tall Table) >> MAGA! /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1530908413 Message started by LostArtist on 07/06/18 at 13:20:13 |
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Title: MAGA! Post by LostArtist on 07/06/18 at 13:20:13 http://thehill.com/opinion/white-house/395452-not-so-proud-to-be-an-american Not so proud to be an American A new national Gallup poll indicates the number of Americans who are extremely proud of the United States has dropped since Trump became president. Like many aspects of his presidency, Trump has taken a bad situation and made it even worse. Less than half (47 percent) of the American people say they are extremely proud of the United States. This represents a decline from 51 percent in the first year of Trump’s presidency. |
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Title: Re: MAGA! Post by faffi on 07/07/18 at 04:58:01 Not living in America, my vote doesn't count for anything. But I can state that Trump's popularity is rather slim in Europe, although - like in America - people tend to be very pro or very anti when it comes to your President. Few seem to be neutral towards him. That said, I am not sure if polls like these will make any difference, or what they are meant to reveal. In 2003, 70 % of people in USA were extremely proud to be Americans, now the number have dropped to 47. However, 74 % of the Republicans are still extremely proud to be Americans. So the poll only tells us what is already known; Trump is a disruptive leader, not a unifying leader. So it is only natural that emotions will be stronger for or against him. And since the President is the greatest representative for the country, when you are ashamed of your highest leader, it is difficult to be extremely proud of your country. |
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Title: Re: MAGA! Post by LostArtist on 07/07/18 at 06:48:42 greeting faffi, always good to get an outside perspective |
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Title: Re: MAGA! Post by justin_o_guy2 on 07/07/18 at 10:10:14 since the President is the greatest representative for the country, when you are ashamed of your highest leader, it is difficult to be extremely proud of your country. Back to top Bushes,Clinton, Obama Yeah, ashamed Trump Im happy |
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Title: Re: MAGA! Post by Serowbot on 07/07/18 at 11:19:16 746B6D6A7770417141796B672C1E0 wrote:
You wear your racism so well... |
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Title: Re: MAGA! Post by faffi on 07/07/18 at 11:38:12 47585E5944437242724A58541F2D0 wrote:
Of course, you are fully entitled to be supportive of Trump and not of the others. For the record, Clinton and Obama were both highly regarded by the majority on this planet, while Bush jr. and to much greater degree Trump have not received much positive press. But the masses does not hold the only answer, each must make up their own mind. One very interesting aspect that I have noticed is the quite often blind condemnation or praise of Presidents. Not that this is apparent in this post, but as said often the case. I have no respect for people (on topic, not in general) who think that President X is/was all bad and President Y is/was all good. Such hate/blind support simply holds no merit. Every single President have had many good and many less good sides and decisions. No exception. How good/bad one see each overall will depend on whether they go with you or against your own opinions - if you cannot see beyond your own egotistical wants - but once a person fail to give a balanced judgement with arguments for why, their opinions have zero credibility or validity. Give credit where credit is due. Then it is possible to have a discussion ;) |
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Title: Re: MAGA! Post by Eegore on 07/07/18 at 12:48:13 "I have no respect for people (on topic, not in general) who think that President X is/was all bad and President Y is/was all good. Such hate/blind support simply holds no merit. " I agree. This idea that nobody ever criticized Obama is ridiculous, I heard negative publicity about "Obamacare" literally every day. I remember how horrible Clinton was, and how a lot of world leaders wished a b low job was the worst of their worries. Bush Jr. was made fun of nightly on TV, so much it got really old, but for some reason none of that happened now because with Trump its worse. |
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Title: Re: MAGA! Post by faffi on 07/07/18 at 12:52:24 Well put. |
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Title: Re: MAGA! Post by MnSpring on 07/07/18 at 15:06:02 392F38253D28253E4A0 wrote:
WOW, Just being right of center, is Racist. Just having the hint of, conservative ideas, is Racist. Just supporting a thing the current POTUS has done, is Racist. (and or a ’Nazi’) And Now. Being Proud of the Country one lives in. Proud to be a American. That is now, Also, Raciest !!!!! I have a question, When I get up in the morning, I put my pants on, one leg at a time. Now, should I put the Right leg in first, or the Left leg in first ? Most Certainly don’t want to be called, Racist, putting on my pants, because I am not doing it, the SAME way, as a a ultra-Liberal. |
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Title: Re: MAGA! Post by hotrod on 07/07/18 at 16:42:44 I'm 66 years old and a white guy. Most of my life was spent in the Bronx NY. I prefer to be around white people. Call me a racist all day long. This decision was made based on experience and observation. |
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Title: Re: MAGA! Post by WebsterMark on 07/08/18 at 04:58:42 As a white man, you can't say that. As a black man, you could. That's a 100% accurate statement that can speak volumes on one side or the other. |
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Title: Re: MAGA! Post by MnSpring on 07/08/18 at 09:20:19 In now knowing, what is a, ‘Racist’ person. (Being that a person who is proud of this Country, Is s ‘Racist’) Let me add this! http://https://pics.me.me/myneighbor-build-this-fence-clearly-a-racist-liberal-logic-101-21741626.png https://me.me/t/liberal-logic-101 |
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Title: Re: MAGA! Post by faffi on 07/08/18 at 12:11:58 59707C7C746320110 wrote:
This is a statement that to me is very easy to accept. I do not consider it racist. Racism is making different regulations, laws and opportunities for people depending on their skin color, belief, sexual preferences etc. So if you tried to deny blacks access to the local pub or keep sections of the city off limit for anybody not white, you would be a racist by my (simplistic) definition. Personally, I try to judge each person as an individual. There are motorcycle addicts I cannot stand because I find them intolerable, and there are people against motorcycles that I still hold in high regards because they are good people who just happen to have a different view than me about my passion. So I do not care about the color of your skin or your (lack of) religion or your choice of vehicle - all I care about is that you have a fairly open mind and have the ability to disagree without getting worked up. |
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Title: Re: MAGA! Post by MnSpring on 07/08/18 at 13:22:27 747374747B120 wrote:
Just for some that may not know. If Bernie Sanders, was campaigning for a spot in Norway, he, by Norway’s standards, would be considered a Conservative, Far Right of Center. (Personal Taxes are as much as Twice that of the US. And the Very Few, business, that are NOT owned by the the State, can be taxed as high as 70%) Norway, is very Beautiful county, (but Hugely Expensive, like Denmark & Sweden). Their is a connection between Norway, (well the Scandinavian area) and Minn. The Kensington Runestone. Their was a, ‘reported’, visit to Western MN, in 1300’s by Paul Knutson, who was looking for a vineyard/colony , established by Leif Erickson. In 2001, another study, (Opinion), said it was a boundary marker for territory given to the Celts and Templars by the Portuguese. and the stone was put in place in 1519. Which is it, don’t know, just fun to talk about. “…I have no respect for people (on topic, not in general) who think that President X is/was all bad and President Y is/was all good. Such hate/blind support simply holds no merit….” With that in mind, wondering how your manifesto above, meshes with your below statements ? “…regardless of what he gets done, how is it possible to support a notorious liar and a person that changes his mind about as often as he changes underwear?…” “…Or has he had the same effect on his supporters that crazy priests have over their crowd, meaning people just follow blindly without ever asking the important questions?…” http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1530908737 (Post #2) |
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Title: Re: MAGA! Post by faffi on 07/08/18 at 14:18:41 On Trump: Obviously subjective, but I stand by it because A) it is proven that he lies AND change his opinion very frequently, and B) I do not understand the blind support many give him. By that I mean not seeing any faults in him and thinking he is basically all good. Obviously, others feel differently, but I cannot respect them for it. I can accept it, but not respect it, because it is too far off the rationale. Note that I have no problem respecting people who support Trump as long as they understand he - like every human - has good as well as bad qualities. It would be the very same regardless of what person we discuss, not just Trump. I don't think anybody only does bad things (or good things), but some may have a poor ratio between the two. Again, what is bad - or good - will of course vary from one individual to the next, which is why there are few (of any) absolute truths or rights. |
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Title: Re: MAGA! Post by faffi on 07/08/18 at 14:38:20 About Norway: Oil companies are taxed 78% in Norway. That sounds like a lot, and it is. However, this goes both ways; 78% of all wages - as well as every expense - are paid by the state because it can be deducted as expense since tax is only paid on profit, not turnover. If a company lose money, they pay no tax and the state still pay 78% of everything they spend. Yes, we do pay a lot of tax. But we also get a lot in return; free schools (even universities), free equal health care for all*, a national police force with educated personnel (nobody can get elected as sheriff), a national fire brigade etc. Crime rate is low. Despite the high cost of living, we also earn well, and the country has been named the best place to live several times. Of course, what is nice for one may be hell for another, so we're talking averages here. *Money can always get something extra, of course, but not from the national health care. Bernie Sanders, which I'd love to see as your President, but it is probably too soon to succeed with his policy, would be seen as a "typical" politician in Scandinavia, where virtually everyone having a socialistic platform, even the majority of the right wing politicians. That is because Scandinavia in particular, and Western Europe in general, have learned that socialism to a degree has its perks. On top of that you can go right or left, of course, but so far there has not been a climate for the kind of governing you have in USA. However, the extreme right have gained a lot of ground in Europe as of lately. Weirdly enough, they share many ideas with the former German National Socialism that led to WW2. |
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Title: Re: MAGA! Post by MnSpring on 07/08/18 at 16:43:00 7D7A7D7D721B0 wrote:
You mention: “…”typical” politician in Scandinavia, where virtually everyone having a socialistic platform,…” Not really news, everybody knows that. Yet what will, ‘Scandinavia’, and many in Europe, do, when they run out of other peoples money ? What is different between the socialistic governments, like U.S.S.R., Venezuela, Cuba, (just to name 3), which have failed or close to failing. And Norway, Denmark, Sweden, who have not yet failed ? Also I don’t understand: “…the state still pay 78% of everything they spend….” I have learned, the, ’state’, cannot pay a single thing, until it has money. So for the, ’state’ to get money, the, ’state’ has to run a business, that makes money. And/or, collect Taxes. Is that, the way your, ’state’, get’s it’s money ? |
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Title: Re: MAGA! Post by Eegore on 07/08/18 at 20:34:44 Well Norways "oil fund" is separate from its own economy. The risks are separate so I'm not sure that other people's money is as directly correlated as say the US as the markets are more shared there. There's been doomsday "what-ifs" about that setup for two decades, and I am open to the idea that it will collapse but at 1 trillion I am going to go with the actual math and real money over the predictions that haven't come true for the past 15 years. https://www.forbes.com/sites/niallmccarthy/2017/09/22/norways-sovereign-wealth-fund-hits-1-trillion-infographic/#e944ffa83c9e |
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Title: Re: MAGA! Post by faffi on 07/09/18 at 00:16:08 7B586546445F5851360 wrote:
You mention: “…”typical” politician in Scandinavia, where virtually everyone having a socialistic platform,…” Not really news, everybody knows that. Yet what will, ‘Scandinavia’, and many in Europe, do, when they run out of other peoples money ? What is different between the socialistic governments, like U.S.S.R., Venezuela, Cuba, (just to name 3), which have failed or close to failing. And Norway, Denmark, Sweden, who have not yet failed ? Also I don’t understand: “…the state still pay 78% of everything they spend….” I have learned, the, ’state’, cannot pay a single thing, until it has money. So for the, ’state’ to get money, the, ’state’ has to run a business, that makes money. And/or, collect Taxes. Is that, the way your, ’state’, get’s it’s money ? [/quote] The states you mention are communistic, or has that background, which isn't the same as socialistic. The state pays the expenses indirectly because there is nothing to tax until you have profit. |
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Title: Re: MAGA! Post by MnSpring on 07/09/18 at 14:20:26 252225252A430 wrote:
I understand socialism is to eliminate social classes, and people still can, ‘own’, things. In a communist society, the goal is also to eliminate social classes yet, the working class owns everything. So the key, is to, define, ‘People’ and ‘Working Class’. Basically, the way you describe, it sounds a lot like someone here, opening a, ’Thrift’ store. The ‘profits’ are minuscule, because the ‘expenses’ are tremendous. Just wondering, as the average petrol price, is about twice as high as the US. How much of that price, is for the gas, and how much is for the Taxes on the gas ? |
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Title: Re: MAGA! Post by faffi on 07/10/18 at 13:17:48 I will claim that overall, our system does not cost more than the American system. It is not something I have tried to document, but if you included everything related to how the countries are run, we have some real benefits like far, far less crime (cost money), far less cost for prisons, better general education and better, cheaper (to run) health care, better economy overall (and so does Denmark, for instance, which have very little oil) with not only national money on the bank, but the average standard of life is higher. Few are poor and few are filthy rich compared to for instance USA. Socialism is quite similar to a capitalism, the major difference is that everybody is required to pay for the common good in order to get free health care, free education, national police and fire squads, national road service and more. Also, to take care of the poor and unemployed. The system is still driven by money and profit, however. Do people take advantage of a generous welfare system? Most definitely. But name a system where some aren't trying to gain an unfair advantage. There are none. The "beneficiaries" (a.k.a. scum) in our system, though, are likely not the same people that utilize the system in USA for an unfair advantage, or what you want to call it. There my be more trying to cheat on our system, though, although I am only speculating. All my life I have read how many Americans believe socialism is the same as communism, but they have virtually nothing in common, be that in theory or particularly in practical execution. Socialism is a system with full freedom for the individual and based on profit and technical development. The main difference is somewhat higher taxes to keep a higher degree of equality among people. This not only leads to happier people less likely to become criminal, but it also means that even poor people can quite easily afford to go to university, even if they are not among the brightest in the world. So more opportunities for more people. Communism is in theory about everybody doing as well as they can, but also that everybody gets exactly the same. So let's say you are strong and energetic and produce 100 tons of corn, while another is weak and has low energy and only produce 10 tons of corn, you will both make the same amount of money. Now, if everybody actually worked to the best of their abilities, this system would be fair. In my opinion, at least. But humans does not work that way. The the strong and energetic take a look at the one next door and think "why should I produce all this extra when it doesn't benefit me in any way?" So in real life you end up with a bunch of people performing at a rather low level. Pointing a gun at them, literally or mentally, can help a little, but you never get much in the form of excellence. To make matters worse, the leaders/elite will sit on massive fortunes taken from the (comparatively) hard working and definitely poor masses, making them even poorer. People are generally miserable, poor and not well educated. Not because of communism as a system, but how it is put to use. But again, there are virtually no similarities between communism and socialism. If you can, talk to Americans who have lived for a longer spell in Scandinavia and hear what opinions they have. |
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Title: Re: MAGA! Post by justin_o_guy2 on 07/10/18 at 13:34:30 everybody actually worked to the best of their abilities, this system would be fair No, it would not be Fair. |
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Title: Re: MAGA! Post by faffi on 07/10/18 at 13:48:26 2B343235282F1E2E1E26343873410 wrote:
So what in your opinion would be fair? |
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Title: Re: MAGA! Post by justin_o_guy2 on 07/10/18 at 14:49:35 Let's say you and me and eight others run a race. You finish first. We chop the blue ribbon into ten pieces. Fair? |
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Title: Re: MAGA! Post by faffi on 07/11/18 at 15:34:35 You didn't answer the question, and the situation is much different. If you want to make it a race, it would be that the 10 would have to work as a group. Now, should the ribbon be split equally between the members, or individually? What do you reckon should be the criteria for the latter, if that is your opinion? And what if, going back to my original scenario, the weak performer is really clever and can take advantage of the strong performer - who is a bit light in the mental department - to do the workload for both, what would be fair now? |
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Title: Re: MAGA! Post by justin_o_guy2 on 07/11/18 at 15:47:34 Not gonna waste my time arguing with you. I'm a capitalist. |
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Title: Re: MAGA! Post by faffi on 07/11/18 at 16:03:30 2B343235282F1E2E1E26343873410 wrote:
That was clever ;D |
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Title: Re: MAGA! Post by MnSpring on 07/12/18 at 10:25:14 454245454A230 wrote:
Well that is one part of socialism. And something you like. So be it. Another question. A Business, is doing well, they need another employee. Their are two applicants. One is Norwegian, with ancestry going far back.. That person, Knows the job, has all the skills and requirements. The other one, is of a certain, sex, sexual preference, religion, skin color, heritage, and is not as skilled for the job, as the first person. Does your socialistic government, tell, the business which person to hire ? Does your government, give any, ‘incentive’ to hire one or the other. Is this different, for a, ‘Private’, company, than a, ’State’ company/government employ ? |
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Title: Re: MAGA! Post by faffi on 07/12/18 at 14:19:02 You are free to hire whoever you want, be that for a private or public position, but for a public position you may have to prove you chose the most skilled one. What you cannot do is search for a man or a woman specifically to fill a position, nor are you allowed to ask about religion, political and sexual preferences. In theory, you are not allowed to discriminate based on age, sex, religion or political issues. There are incentives, though, to employ those with (expected) lower productivity. That could be a handicap, illness, mental issues, limited understanding of the language etc. The state can then pay some or all of the salary for up to 6 months while you try them out to see if they will work for your business. |
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Title: Re: MAGA! Post by MnSpring on 07/12/18 at 16:06:42 4740474748210 wrote:
WOW, the, “… you may have to prove you chose the most skilled one…” That is great ! That statement, is one that needs a great amount of repeating, to the Socialists, Progressives, Ultra-Liberals here. See here, it is the, norm, to hire someone for a job, NOT, on the best skills, for the job. Because the ultra-Liberals, created, ‘Diversity’. So, a qualified, white male, has less points than a non qualified, Black Female, who is Gay, and Muslim. Diversity. And hiring someone, with more, ‘points’, gets more, ‘perks’. Again something the Democrats highly Love ! The goal, have people, who are ‘different’, yet skilled for the Job. Yet the Fairy Dust Sprinkling, Kum-By-You singing Snowflakes. Make Law, cause the, ’Stand In The Street, Criers’, want it NOW ! That is the problem with ALL the, Socialists, Progressives, Ultra-Liberals here. They just Don’t think anything through. Another question, If I came to Norway, immigrated, was accepted, got a job. Would I be asked to learn, Norwegian ? Or would I be provided with the choice of 34 different languages to communicate in, like in the USA, when I ask a question of the government, or many private companies ? |
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Title: Re: MAGA! Post by justin_o_guy2 on 07/12/18 at 20:44:02 W e replaced what worked With what sounded good |
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Title: Re: MAGA! Post by eau de sauvage on 07/13/18 at 03:57:52 @Mnspring, Just being right of center, is Racist. No, being right of centre is being right of centre, being racist is being racist. Simples. |
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Title: Re: MAGA! Post by justin_o_guy2 on 07/13/18 at 06:44:32 But no one right of center isn't racist also, right? |
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Title: Re: MAGA! Post by Trippah on 07/13/18 at 06:57:56 faffi - that was a well presented discussion of the differences tween socialism and communism, mille grazie. Most of the Trumpets really think the 50's and 60's were great, and they were for a small slice of white people, especially the male half. They refuse to see the benefits of a supported, well educated population where everyone has it a bit better except that 1% that sells the same old story supporting their wealth. |
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Title: Re: MAGA! Post by faffi on 07/13/18 at 11:39:06 4740474748210 wrote:
54774A696B70777E190 wrote:
Houston, we have a problem. Or several. One of them is you, because you have made up your mind about things you appear to not know enough about. The other is me for A) not having a full enough grasp of the English language - I go by what I learned at school cirka 1980 - and for not being specific enough. You see, I should have added that for a leading position, you may have to prove you chose the most skilled one. But hiring a typical office worker etc. anybody can hire whomever they desire. If you come here and get a job, you do not have to learn any language unless the company or office you will work for has that as a klausul for giving you a job in the first place. Quite a few English-speaking persons that decide to work here long-term or permanently fail to learn our language since everybody here speak English, meaning they can get by without speaking Norwegian. Personally, I find that a bit disrespectful, regardless of your native tongue. Not only English-speaking people learn little or no Norwegian, though, also Polish etc. are happy not being understood or able to understand. If I moved to China or whatever for an extended period, I would feel obligated to learn the language. You can find public documentation in several languages - don't know the number, but I doubt it is anywhere near 34 - and you can also get an interpreter to help you navigate through the official system if you lack sufficient understanding of the language. Not sure if you think having 34 languages at disposal in USA is a good or bad thing, because it sure cost money. |
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Title: Re: MAGA! Post by faffi on 07/13/18 at 11:46:10 06203B2222333A520 wrote:
Thank you for stating that. 06203B2222333A520 wrote:
You may well be correct, and it makes perfect sense to me, but not living in USA it is difficult for me to comment with any authority. |
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