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SuzukiSavage.com
/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> Stage I Dyno Numbers /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1529650137 Message started by DragBikeMike on 06/21/18 at 23:48:56 |
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Title: Stage I Dyno Numbers Post by DragBikeMike on 06/21/18 at 23:48:56 I have pretty much finished picking the low hanging fruit. The mods I have done so far have been relatively inexpensive and fairly easy to accomplish. My total cash outlay has been about $264. Here are the mods I have done so far: -Airbox modifications with K&N filter. Cost $56. See post "Airbox Performance Tests" 4/9/18. -Carb mods including drill out mix screw plug, drill out pilot jet, drill hole in slide, raise jet needle, replace main jet. Cost $4.50 for main jet. See post "Stock Carb Slide Mod" 4/12/18. -Transient enrichment valve mods. Cost $0.00. See post "Transient Enrichment Valve (TEV)" 4/15/18. -DR 650 cam install. Cost $165. See post "DR650 Cam Evaluation" 5/2/18. -Stock muffler modifications. Cost $38. See post "Stock Mufflar Eval & Upgrade" 5/15/18. -Flywheel removal. Cost $0.00. See post "What's the Flywheel for?" 6/18/18. It was time for a dyno run so I went to see my good pal Ted Davis at RevTek Speed Tuning in Waipio Gentry, Hawaii. He's got the goods when it comes to dyno testing. The modifications listed above have resulted in a 11.3% increase in horsepower and a 20.6% increase in torque. I must admit I expeceted more but the seat-o-da-pants evaluations just don't cut it. Too many variables closing in on my pea brain to digest all at once. Noise, wind, vibration, adjacent vehicles, etc. all combine to make an accurate evaluation almost impossible. The dyno is the only way to go. Here is a pic of the dyno run: |
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Title: Re: Stage I Dyno Numbers Post by DragBikeMike on 06/21/18 at 23:56:26 The red lines depict the initial run I did on 3/30/18 with a totally stock 2016 LS650. The blue lines depict the modified bike on 6/21/18. I thought I was probably making about 35 HP and was initially powerfully disappointed at seeing only 33.5 HP. That seat-o-da-pants dyno is a persnickety devil. It almost always fools you. Keep in mind that I have noted things like "smoother acceleration", fairly "dramatic loss of dead low torque", and very noticeable "improved freeway acceleration". If you look at the dyno graphs closely you will see trends that support those seat-o-da-pants impressions. |
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Title: Re: Stage I Dyno Numbers Post by DragBikeMike on 06/22/18 at 00:12:25 The first dead ringer is that torque. It increased by 6.6 ft-lbs. More importantly, it exceeded the maximum stock torque (31.8 ft-lbs) all the way from 2300 rpm to 6000 rpm. Now that's a power band. No dips. No hic-ups. Just a nice smooth arc. I think that explains my impression of "smooth acceleration". Where the stock engine made 30 HP from about 5200 rpm to 5700 rpm, the modified engine exceeded 30 HP from 4500 to 6500 rpm. So it's not the total gain in horsepower but the gain combined with the extended power band that make this little beast feel so much better. |
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Title: Re: Stage I Dyno Numbers Post by DragBikeMike on 06/22/18 at 00:22:26 In my opinion, the mods I have listed represent pretty much all the low hanging fruit. I define low hanging fruit as mods that don't require removal of the engine from the frame, or cost more than about $400 for a single mod. That left out piston swaps, bigger carbs, etc. If any of you have mods that have potential and meet the criteria above, please let us know so we can evaluate and test. I personally am not interested in any mods that increase noise level, but other members of the forum might like a louder more muscular rumble from their savage. If that's the case and you can make a few more ponies in the process, let us know what you've got up your sleeve. For me, I want silent but deadly power. I'm still pretty much silent but have a long way to go before I reach deadly. But man, that enhanced and extended powerband sure feels sweet right now. |
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Title: Re: Stage I Dyno Numbers Post by DragBikeMike on 06/22/18 at 00:39:34 Regarding intake & exhaust restrictions. If you look at the power curve you will note that this thing doesn't just sign-off. I had Ted chop the throttle when he reached 7000 rpm. I'll never take it that high so why hurt it. But it was still pulling nicely at 7000 rpm. That tells me that the engine isn't being chocked off by the induction system and isn't constipated. The intake and exhaust mods look like they've still got some more to be had. The mods support what I have now and will probably support even more. To me, that's a very good sign. I should be able to get more out of it and still maintain the current noise levels. Regrading the fuel curve. I'm still a bit lean. I really want it down about 13:1, but it's much closer than it was on the stock run. I will eventually raise the needle .030" to .060" and bump it up from a 152.5 MJ to a 155 MJ. Those adjustments should get the mix from 3000 to 4200 and from 5000 to 6500 pretty close to 13:1. But for now, I will leave it as-is until I get some sort of device to measure my acceleration. That way I can correlate the existing setup with known dyno data to G-force. Then I can start testing the mods individually. I will keep you posted. My initial dyno numbers were a bit discouraging until I took a better look. It's the total package that counts. The bike feels great and the dyno test explains why. It's not the total gain in HP that tells the story, it's the extended powerband. Hope you all find this post useful. |
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Title: Re: Stage I Dyno Numbers Post by Armen on 06/22/18 at 03:12:20 Thanks for posting! Very interesting. What's next on the mod list? |
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Title: Re: Stage I Dyno Numbers Post by Gary_in_NJ on 06/22/18 at 06:59:29 Good info. |
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Title: Re: Stage I Dyno Numbers Post by batman on 06/22/18 at 10:20:53 Pushing the bike past 7000rpm ,isn't going to show you anything real anyway (except damage or valve float) .A dyno doesn't take in real world conditions, rider weight and frontal air drag. 7000 rpm = about 105 mph ,and we haven't seen that out of ANY Savage yet. |
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Title: Re: Stage I Dyno Numbers Post by IslandRoad on 06/22/18 at 15:49:58 Great info. Thanks. BTW, those smooth blue curves are very pleasing!! |
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Title: Re: Stage I Dyno Numbers Post by hotrod on 06/22/18 at 20:37:11 Great information here. It makes me more wanting to install a DR 650 cam. Did you have to remove the engine to make the cam swap ? Thanks. |
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Title: Re: Stage I Dyno Numbers Post by DragBikeMike on 06/23/18 at 00:23:52 Regarding Armen's post "What's next?". I was hoping I would get some clues from yooz guys. Right now, I am planning on installing an AutoMeter device that measures G-Force. I want to be able to test and evaluate every single change. If the instrument is sensitive enough, I am hoping to be able to share the good & the bad & the ugly associated with each mod with the rest of you. So what ya got folks? Actually, I have been toying with an idea about installing an insert in the exhaust port that smooths out the abrupt transition from head port to exhaust header. Right now, it has an abrupt small-big-small transition that most certainly kills flow velocity. Any thoughts? Regarding Batman's comment on real world conditions: I agree, the dyno is simply a tool that measures HP under almost ideal conditions. It can't replicate all the variables encountered on a real road. But given the fact that each dyno pull is accomplished under those same idyllic conditions, it most certainly will give you better insight than seat-o-da-pants. The limitations of the dyno (mostly financial) are what have led me to the conclusion that I need some sort of instrument that allows testing after EVERY change and under almost exact conditions. So I have ordered such an instrument. I intend to share the fruits of that device with all of you so that we can focus on mods that actually pay off. My last dyno run tested about five or six mods. I can't afford to test every mod individually. If the AutoMeter instrument proves to be reliable, I will be able to test each one and evaluate on it's own merit, test in combinations, etc. It's gonna be a gas. Regarding Island Road's comment: I agree, smooth curves are nice but I wanna make those curves steeper. Thanks for the kudos. Regarding HotRod's question about removing the engine: No need to remove the engine. It's a bit tight up there but you can get her opened and closed without too much trouble. I suggest doing several dry runs to figure out all the angles and dangles you will need to do in order to get the head cover back in place without messing up the sealant. Take a look at my post on "Sealant Applicator" for a cheap & simple tool that will ensure a very, very light coat of sealant. Also look at Dave's comments regarding use of a syringe. The sealant application is the trickiest part of the job. Keep this in mind, I'd rather deal with a small leak than a burned up top end. Keep that sealant away from the chamfers in the cam bearings and any oil passages in the head or head cover. Also, be aware that I am still uneasy about the DR650 cam's lack of oiling holes. I did a good visual inspection after several hundred miles and everything looked OK. I will be doing another visual shortly and I will post the results. See my post on DR650 cam for more info. |
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Title: Re: Stage I Dyno Numbers Post by verslagen1 on 06/23/18 at 00:37:16 0E08077B797E7A4A0 wrote:
Well if you're gonna keep with the cheap mod's then that's what I would do. Doesn't cost nothing to smooth out the exhaust and polish the intake. |
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Title: Re: Stage I Dyno Numbers Post by Dave on 06/23/18 at 03:23:15 I agree with Verslagen. It is possible to carve away some of the ring in the exhaust port with the engine still in the frame and the head still on the bike. Make sure the exhaust valves are closed, then sStuff a small amount of greasy rags in the exhaust port.....then work some magic with a Dremel or similar tool. |
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Title: Re: Stage I Dyno Numbers Post by hotrod on 06/23/18 at 05:27:14 Special thanks to DragBikeMike. You sure seem to know what you're doing, and I'm eating it up like a steak dinner. Learning is fun and exciting. Thank you. |
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Title: Re: Stage I Dyno Numbers Post by norm92de on 06/23/18 at 12:15:37 DBM, That is a really nice improvement in the torque curve. Must be easy to feel the extra torque. And it is so smooth, all across the power band! |
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Title: Re: Stage I Dyno Numbers Post by DragBikeMike on 06/23/18 at 13:00:17 Thanks again for the Kudos. Regarding comments by Verslagen & Dave, I won't be doing any port work with the head installed. When I get to that point I intend to use my poor man's flow bench to monitor the alterations. I want to check flow with the valves open in increments (probably .030" increments). As I make small changes I can get a good feel if I'm going in the right direction. I should be able to graph the results and end up with a bell curve (closed to open to closed). I can then superimpose the modified curve over the as found curve. I want to avoid having any portion of the modified curve below the as-found. That might not be possible as flows at smaller opening points may tend to fall off as port volume increases. I don't want to grind unless I can see what the changes are doing. I've never tried using the poor man's flow bench for porting so it should be very interesting. The insert I was describing would be a removable piece. I believe one of you described this exhaust port as being like a broken leg that is broken in two places. The floor of the port is smooth, but the roof of the port is very low and has an abrupt 90 degree ledge that travels straight up. The mating header pipe has the inner pipe that forms this funnel. The angle of the funnel is very shallow (probably on the order of 160 degrees or so). So instead of making a long, gradual transition into the 1-5/8" inner pipe it's more like running into a wall. I'm thinking that it might be possible to fabricate an insert that fits into the port. The insert would be intended to smooth the transition from port to inner pipe. I don't see any merit to having the hot gas run past the vertical edge of the port, expand in the small void between port & inner pipe, and then squeeze back down into the inner pipe. I think it creates all sorts of turbulence and kills velocity. The insert would be removable and no alteration of the port would be necessary. If it doesn't work I can take it out and use it as a paper weight. What do you think, is it worth a try? |
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Title: Re: Stage I Dyno Numbers Post by norm92de on 06/23/18 at 13:09:26 DBM, I think that anything you can do to smooth the "double fracture" has got to help. :) |
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Title: Re: Stage I Dyno Numbers Post by LANCER on 06/23/18 at 17:26:28 The inner pipe has a 1.3” ID. |
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Title: Re: Stage I Dyno Numbers Post by Armen on 06/23/18 at 19:37:44 Like this |
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Title: Re: Stage I Dyno Numbers Post by Armen on 06/23/18 at 19:39:15 Another look |
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Title: Re: Stage I Dyno Numbersbc Post by DragBikeMike on 06/23/18 at 21:46:15 Mama Mia Armen, what a beautiful cutaway. YES! That’s the problem. Those pics will be extremely useful. I think I might be able to use the pics to sketch out potential inserts. Thanks for the correction on inner pipe diameter Lancer. |
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Title: Re: Stage I Dyno Numbers Post by DragBikeMike on 06/23/18 at 21:52:22 That spring seat is the root of all evil. Start grinding away at the roof of the port and the wall below the spring gets thinner & thinner. Pretty soon CRACK! What a pickle. I’m on it. There’s gotta be a way to help this engineering nightmare. |
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Title: Re: Stage I Dyno Numbers Post by batman on 06/23/18 at 22:08:37 It would be a difficult ,but anything to improve exhaust flow would be worth it. |
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Title: Re: Stage I Dyno Numbers Post by Armen on 06/24/18 at 03:56:16 Two things: Want me to lend/send you the cutaway head pieces? My seriously delusional though was to build up weld between the spring seats to allow the port roof to be raised. Thanks again for testing and posting. When you get to the point where you are pulling the top end, my guess is that paying attention to the squish band as well as the actual compression ratio will yield some serious results. Lance used a high comp piston, and cut the cylinder and the underside of the head. That tells me the compression ratio must be pretty dismal, and the squish band could be measured with a tape measure ::) |
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Title: Re: Stage I Dyno Numbers Post by batman on 06/24/18 at 08:34:25 I've never done any exhaust port work,nor have I had a chance to look at the ports, but I think Armen's idea to remove the ledge might make things worse . the exhaust port should only increase in size about 6 to 8 % from the valve to the header , to keep the velocity up, the fact that the gas expands beyond the ledge (velocity drops/pressure increases) and before entering the exhaust header is the killer. this is the area ,I believe, where an insert /or weld up would be most effective. |
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Title: Re: Stage I Dyno Numbers Post by DragBikeMike on 06/24/18 at 15:24:00 That is a mighty generous offer Armen. I will send you a PM so we can discuss the details. Dave had mentioned to me that there is essentially no quench on these engines (clearance at TDC too big to squish anything). I generally like to run about .040” on a street application and about .030” on a race application. Are those numbers achievable on the LS650? I’m curious, how did Lancer deal with the cam chain? Cutting the cylinder and underside of head should render the chain loose as a goose. Jerry Branch does a weld build up on his Harley Evo heads. He raises the port to eliminate the sharp bend/turn as the port interfaces with the valve seat. I ran a set of his heads for awhile. Ended up replacing them with Edelbrock heads because the Branch heads cracked. He does alot of welding (ports, combustion chamber) and then lots of machining (bathtub chambers, larger intake valve seats, ports). Not sure why the head cracked (at exh seat so lots of hoop stress) but I was no longer comfy with them. They did look nice though. I must admit that your pictures show how difficult it will be to improve the LS exh port. Hope rings eternal. If I have the cutaway I can probably make a dental casting of the port. That will make fabrication of an insert a lot easier. |
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Title: Re: Stage I Dyno Numbers Post by Armen on 06/24/18 at 17:03:16 When I finally get to the major rebuild, I'll tighten up the squish. I was going to aim for .040" as well. As far as the cam chain, I guess the gag is to run a Versy type extended tensioner, and tweak the cam timing. I wrote that up a while ago. Basically it involves juggling the crank sprocket for the cam chain. Should be able to make small enough adjustments to get the cam timing back to stock or even slightly advanced). |
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Title: Re: Stage I Dyno Numbers Post by Armen on 06/24/18 at 17:04:13 Both ports |
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