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General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> Having trouble with a new-to-me Savage
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Message started by HenryTM82 on 05/17/18 at 22:16:52

Title: Having trouble with a new-to-me Savage
Post by HenryTM82 on 05/17/18 at 22:16:52

Hi everyone, I was pointed to this forum from the motorcycles subreddit, and am hoping you might be help to help me get my new-to-me Savage up to snuff.

It's a 2002 LS650P. When I picked it up, there was a good deal of fuel in the air cleaner housing - I'd say around half a cup of fluid - which I drained out and then cleaned the filter as best I could (I'll be ordering a new one). From what I've been reading on this site (this place is fantastic) it would seem I've got a couple of problems, beginning with needing to either modify my stock gascock (or replace it outright with a Raptor, which is what I plan to do as soon as I can), and possibly tear down and clean my carb.

This is where I'm having an issue at the moment. The bike gives me a hard time starting up, even using the choke, and when it does start, it idles rough and then dies as soon as I stop giving it throttle. I'm fairly new to motorcycle maintenance and I'm not exactly ASE certified, so I'm hoping people smarter than me can help me identify the source of my immediate problem and, if it's feasible, point me to how to fix it (I'd like to learn, and honestly the less money I can throw at a mechanic, the better). As of right now, what I've done is make sure the battery is charged, drained the old fuel and replaced it with a couple gallons of new fuel, and added some Seafoam to help clean the system. Problem is I can't keep the bike running long enough to get the Seafoam to circulate.

I'm expecting my first two big projects with this bike to be replacing that gascock and cleaning the carb. After watching that video and listening to my bike run and die, and reading my description, does anything jump out at you that I should be checking? Any help at all would be appreciated.

Title: Re: Having trouble with a new-to-me Savage
Post by HenryTM82 on 05/17/18 at 22:18:23

I have a video of the bike trying to run and then dying (https://youtu.be/RVD9F01E-ok) that it wouldn't let me post in my original post because I had to post one "normal" message first. This video should give you some idea what I'm dealing with, you can hear it struggling to start, idling rough for a short time, and then dying.

Title: Re: Having trouble with a new-to-me Savage
Post by batman on 05/17/18 at 23:00:56

Before you replace the petcock you should test it (look in the Technical Section - on the right side of the page when you first sign in) , But chances are if the bike sat for a while before you got it the carb needs cleaning, I guess that the pilot jet that feeds your Idle circuit (which is very small ) is plugged. If you don't have a Clymer book ,go to a site like, Ron Ayers , they have exploded views of the bike ,with the parts numbered and the name and order numbers list on the right side of the page.

Title: Re: Having trouble with a new-to-me Savage
Post by HenryTM82 on 05/18/18 at 06:40:44

I'll do that when I get home, thanks. I do have another question - when I was checking the battery last night, it occurred to me that the vent hose was just kind of lying in the battery compartment, but wasn't connected to anything. Looking over the battery itself, there was nowhere for the hose to connect - is it typical to get a new motorcycle battery without a vent hose? If so, am I supposed to be doing anything to vent it, or can I just set that hose aside until I get a new battery that does have a vent on it?

Title: Re: Having trouble with a new-to-me Savage
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 05/18/18 at 06:57:51

Test?
Mine was fine when I bought the bike.
Got the raptor and shelved it.
It was a good thing.
The old one went tits up in no time.
They are just a problem waiting to happen.
Get ya a nice new Raptor, in a Genuine Yamaha part box.

Title: Re: Having trouble with a new-to-me Savage
Post by HenryTM82 on 05/18/18 at 08:15:42

Yeah, that's the plan. I've already ordered one, and will change it out next week. I'm going to try out the manual "conversion" on this site later tonight, just as a temporary stop-gap to get the bike running until the new one comes in. That's tonight's project after dinner - convert the petcock to manual (already have the hex screw and O-ring to do it), and possibly start a tear-down of the carb to clean it up.

Also going to be checking the vacuum hose and oil for gasoline. God, I hope there's no gas in my oil...

Title: Re: Having trouble with a new-to-me Savage
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 05/18/18 at 08:56:53

Did you gain oil?
It's cheap enough anyway.
Filter is fine,
If you're concerned
Dump the oil.

Title: Re: Having trouble with a new-to-me Savage
Post by HenryTM82 on 05/18/18 at 08:59:51

Did you just write me a haiku? ;D

Yeah, I'm gonna get a jug of Rotella-T from O'Reilly's tonight, and just change out the oil while I've got everything else torn apart. Figure I might as well since I'm already doing all this other stuff.

With any luck, I'll have her ready to ride this weekend.

Title: Re: Having trouble with a new-to-me Savage
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 05/18/18 at 09:06:38

I guess I did..

Title: Re: Having trouble with a new-to-me Savage
Post by batman on 05/18/18 at 11:10:42

If your battery doesn't have a vent hose ,it's a sealed battery vent not needed (their better as water level shouldn't need checking during the riding season).

Title: Re: Having trouble with a new-to-me Savage
Post by HenryTM82 on 05/19/18 at 15:37:11

Alright, so I've already ordered a new Raptor petcock, but I wanted to see if I could get the bike running in the meantime while I wait on it to get here. So I followed the guide for creating a plug to stop up the PRI setting and remove the diaphram from the stock petcock, and turned it into a manual ON/OFF/RES petcock.

And that worked! Took me a few hours to drain the fuel, take the thing apart, do the modifications, put it all back together and refuel the bike, but once it was all said and done, she fired right up like a champ.

Now, the bad news. I decided to take her around the block to make sure she'd go in gear and drive and all that good stuff. Everything was great, and I got on a stretch of 40 MPH street, and that's when she died. Third gear, about 40, she acted like she was out of fuel, and sputtered to a halt. Wouldn't start back up despite the fact that there is easily still half a tank of fuel. So, ran home, got the trailer, brought her back, and...after having sat for a bit, she started up and drove up the driveway and into the garage.

So I figured maybe there was something about putting her under strain - like accelerating in gear - that was the problem. I decided to test this theory by letting her run idle in the driveway for a few minutes. Lo, and behold, after about five minutes of idling, it happened again. Acted like fuel was out, weakened a bit, then sputtered and died. Still plenty of fuel in the tank.

So, it doesn't seem to be an issue with trying to accelerate - in fact, it seems to be related to how long the motor's been running. I had only been riding for maybe five minutes when it died the first time, then it idled for around five minutes before dying again.

What might cause the motor to start and run like normal, but sputter and die as if it's out of fuel after running for several minutes?

Title: Re: Having trouble with a new-to-me Savage
Post by MarcosS40 on 05/19/18 at 17:16:54

"What might cause the motor to start and run like normal, but sputter and die as if it's out of fuel after running for several minutes? "

My first thought is that the gas cap vent is blocked causing a vacuum condition in the tank. The bike runs until the vacuum overcomes gravity and stops the fuel flow.

Also, There is a very fine screen above the float needle in the carb inlet that could be partially clogged slowing fuel delivery enough to starve the bike after a few minutes.

Title: Re: Having trouble with a new-to-me Savage
Post by Yoshi on 05/19/18 at 18:05:11

Order a raptor and instal
Order a jet set and buy carb cleaner rip apart the carb, clean it and rejet
Assemble
Ride

Title: Re: Having trouble with a new-to-me Savage
Post by HenryTM82 on 05/19/18 at 18:26:44

5B7764757965452226160 wrote:

My first thought is that the gas cap vent is blocked causing a vacuum condition in the tank. The bike runs until the vacuum overcomes gravity and stops the fuel flow.

Also, There is a very fine screen above the float needle in the carb inlet that could be partially clogged slowing fuel delivery enough to starve the bike after a few minutes.

Would either of these conditions cause it to refuse to start again until it's had about ten minutes to sit?

Title: Re: Having trouble with a new-to-me Savage
Post by Yoshi on 05/19/18 at 18:54:20

Pop the cap after it stalls see if it starts.

Dont run the bike on the kickstand too long, this starves oil to the cam.

Title: Re: Having trouble with a new-to-me Savage
Post by HenryTM82 on 05/19/18 at 18:59:54

Quote:

Pop the cap after it stalls see if it starts.

I'll give that a try, thanks.

Title: Re: Having trouble with a new-to-me Savage
Post by batman on 05/19/18 at 20:18:59

If the vent holes in the cap are plugged you should hear air being sucked in as you remove the cap and it should start almost immediately .If not I'd pull the carb and do a good cleaning. You did plug the opening in the carb for the vacuum hose, right?

Title: Re: Having trouble with a new-to-me Savage
Post by HenryTM82 on 05/20/18 at 00:35:52

5C5F4A535F500A063E0 wrote:

You did plug the opening in the carb for the vacuum hose, right?

Yep. I'll try to get it to die on me, and then see if it restarts with the fuel cap off in the morning and report back.

Title: Re: Having trouble with a new-to-me Savage
Post by madmikesmech on 05/20/18 at 05:23:16

6B747275686F5E6E5E66747833010 wrote:

I agree, a tried and tested solution to a problem that WILL happen!
Steer clear of the cheap knock offs, O.E.M. Yamaha as stated

Title: Re: Having trouble with a new-to-me Savage
Post by HenryTM82 on 05/22/18 at 19:57:36

Okay, time for an update.

I got the new Yamaha petcock and the new not-soaked-in-gasoline-and-who-knows-what-else air filter in today, and went about changing them out. The petcock fit perfectly, and I inspected over and over to make sure there were no leaks. All gravy. I drained yet more gasoline from the air filter housing (assuming this was thanks to the original vacuum petcock not functioning properly). I made sure the vacuum port on the carb was capped off.

So, once I was sure everything was right and clean, I fired her up. She started with no problem, and this time she sounded smoother and stronger than she has since I got her. I made sure to sit down and keep her upright while idling (and giving a bit of throttle to hear if there was any popping or hesitating at higher RPMs...there was a bit), and let her run for a good little while.

She ran really well. Just as I was thinking it might be safe to go ahead and take her for a spin around the block...she sputtered and died again. Just like before - ran strong for about five to ten minutes, then died as if out of gas, and is refusing to start back up (will probably start back up in about ten minutes or so after sitting for a bit).

So, running down the list of things to check:

Replace the stock vacuum petcock with a Yamaha Raptor - check
Replace the clogged, soaked air filter with a new clean filter - check
Replace the hasty bent-over-and-clamped vacuum hose with a cap - check
After the bike died, I opened the gas tank lid to ensure it wasn't a clogged cap vent - bike still did not start back up
Checked the oil level - oil seems fine. Impossible at the moment to do a sniff test to check whether there's gas in the oil, since the entire garage currently smells like fuel, but I'll be changing the oil in the next day or so anyway
Put Seafoam in the gas tank to help clean the carb (at least as well as it could with the limited time it's able to stay running)

It would seem I'm running out of solutions that don't involve tearing down the carb and cleaning it by hand. :-/ Anyone have any ideas before I get my hands really dirty?

Title: Re: Having trouble with a new-to-me Savage
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 05/22/18 at 20:09:09

Did you pull the gas cap and hear a sucking sound?

Title: Re: Having trouble with a new-to-me Savage
Post by batman on 05/22/18 at 20:32:57

Sorry, but I think its time to break down and clean the carb, or at least pull the float bowl and clean the jets, and fuel filter that sits above the float valve seat. It is the last thing in the fuel line ,an may well be the problem ,if partly plugged it would allow you to idle the bike for a few minutes before the bowl level dropped below the jets and stalled. but the faster you ride the bike (40) the faster the level drops. It would allow starting the bike after a bit of time because the bowl level would recover. but than the same cycle would repeat .you sould also check your float for leaks or improper level.

Title: Re: Having trouble with a new-to-me Savage
Post by HenryTM82 on 05/23/18 at 05:50:39

7F6066617C7B4A7A4A72606C27150 wrote:

Did you pull the gas cap and hear a sucking sound?

I pulled the gas cap, did not release any pressure, and the bike still refused to start.

686B7E676B643E320A0 wrote:

Yep, I figure that's where I am at this point. Weekend project this week.

Title: Re: Having trouble with a new-to-me Savage
Post by HenryTM82 on 06/04/18 at 19:53:15

Figured you guys were due for an update!

Alright, so the last couple weeks have been interesting for me. After all the previous trouble, I decided that this thing just needed to be torn down, cleaned out, and brought back to "certified pre-owned" status.

So I used the guides on this site (thank goodness for you guys!) to tear half the bike apart, pull off the carb, tear it down, and clean it. Lo, and behold - the jets were completely and totally gunked up - one had what looked like solid carbon buildup totally stopping up a jet to the point you couldn't even tell there was supposed to be a hole there. A few hours with a brush, a rag, and some parts cleaner later, and everything was shiny and new and non-sticky. Putting it back together, though, I wasn't paying enough attention when I went to put the float bowl cover on, and when I pawed at the gasket...I snapped it. Because of course I did. So I decided to put the carb rebuild on hold until I could order a new gasket, but there's other maintenance to be done!

So I decided to change the oil and oil filter while I've got everything all torn apart. I drain the oil, and it's a good thing I did - there was so much fuel in the oil that it was basically just oil-colored gasoline rather than anything resembling oil anymore. No wonder it was running rough! Go to change the filter, and as soon as I get the filter cover off, I'm greeted with a torn O-ring covered in RTV. That's right - the last guy to do an oil change tore the O-ring, and instead of replacing it like he should have, just stuffed it back into the cover and smothered it in RTV. Spent the next few minutes cleaning blue silicone out of everything, and realized I don't have a new O-ring that will fit. Welp, I've already gotta order a gasket, so might as well add this to the list!

Cleaned even more fuel out of the air filter housing, and then waited. Took about a week to get my new parts in the mail, while my poor bike languished in the garage, torn to pieces. But finally they came, and today, after lots of cussing at myself for putting things together out of order, having to take them back apart and then do it correctly, I finally got it all done.

Flipped on the fuel flow, opened up the choke, and...IT'S ALIIIIIIIVE! (https://youtu.be/cDaUMw8Ziqs) I'm pretty sure I'm going to need to adjust the idle, I think I might have it set a little high right now. It took a little coaxing to get it to stay running without the choke open, but after it ran for a few minutes and warmed up and everything got to cycling like it was supposed to, it sounded great (to my untrained, non-ASE-certified ears, anyway), it ran strong, and most importantly...IT DIDN'T DIE! I let it run for a bit (kept it upright and not on the kickstand) and then took it for a couple spins around the block. It ran strong, didn't give me any hesitation on acceleration, and never acted like it wanted to die.

I feel great. This is the first time I've ever pulled apart a bike to this extent, and the first time I've ever disassembled a carburetor, and I feel like I've truly accomplished something. I just wanted to say thanks to all you guys who gave me advice and answered my questions, and thanks to all the folks who wrote the awesome, awesome guides on this site. You're all saints in my book.

Next week, I get it tagged and registered, and I'll get to start (legally) driving it to work for the summer. I'm really excited. Thanks again, everyone!

http://i.imgur.com/jlOCrzYl.jpg (https://imgur.com/jlOCrzY)

Title: Re: Having trouble with a new-to-me Savage
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 06/05/18 at 00:25:24

Idling on the sidestand will wreck the cam.

Title: Re: Having trouble with a new-to-me Savage
Post by HenryTM82 on 06/05/18 at 00:28:21

I'm aware, which is why I specified:

”kept it upright and not on the kickstand"

;)

Title: Re: Having trouble with a new-to-me Savage
Post by batman on 06/06/18 at 08:41:52

Good job! Enjoy! ( you may want to check the front drive pulley for tightness , valve clearances, and cam chain tensioner -depending on your mileage )