|
SuzukiSavage.com
/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> Cams: Stage 1 vs Stage2 vs Srage 3 /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1521970324 Message started by DragBikeMike on 03/25/18 at 02:32:03 |
|
Title: Cams: Stage 1 vs Stage2 vs Srage 3 Post by DragBikeMike on 03/25/18 at 02:32:03 Any of you running one of the cams discussed on this website? If yes, what is your setup? Stock bore, big bore? Any problems with starting, detonation? How does your savage run? Any problems with rocker arm wear? Any problems with cam chain longevity? Are you also running the performance spring kit? |
|
Title: Re: Cams: Stage 1 vs Stage2 vs Srage 3 Post by Dave on 03/25/18 at 03:52:31 Lancer is only having the Stage 3 cam made these days, as it provides the best overall performance. I have been running the Stage 1 cam for the last 10,000 miles, and it works fine. All of the cams made for the Savage are pretty mild - and none result in any starting/running issues.......they all work just fine in a daily rider. |
|
Title: Re: Cams: Stage 1 vs Stage2 vs Srage 3 Post by kojones on 03/25/18 at 04:11:50 DR650 cam is quite good, too. https://www.partzilla.com/product/suzuki/12711-12D00 |
|
Title: Re: Cams: Stage 1 vs Stage2 vs Srage 3 Post by snels516 on 03/25/18 at 05:54:32 Kojones do you run a dr650 cam? |
|
Title: Re: Cams: Stage 1 vs Stage2 vs Srage 3 Post by kojones on 03/25/18 at 07:27:57 3E2328213E787C7B4D0 wrote:
Yes. No issues. Wiseco piston and ported head with stock header. |
|
Title: Re: Cams: Stage 1 vs Stage2 vs Srage 3 Post by batman on 03/25/18 at 07:42:04 kojones ,didn't we just talk about your bike pinging ,you may have too much cam. I'd call that a problem. |
|
Title: Re: Cams: Stage 1 vs Stage2 vs Srage 3 Post by kojones on 03/25/18 at 08:54:51 2320352C202F7579410 wrote:
Yes, might be that I heard pinging once. Albeit, there’s many Savage owners running a DR cam in their Savages and haven’t heard a single complaint. |
|
Title: Re: Cams: Stage 1 vs Stage2 vs Srage 3 Post by snels516 on 03/25/18 at 09:14:33 No kidding. I hadn’t heard of that option. Nicer priced option vs webcam. Anyone else running it? Any reported issues aside from maybe you might have heard it pinging? |
|
Title: Re: Cams: Stage 1 vs Stage2 vs Srage 3 Post by Fast 650 on 03/25/18 at 10:10:40 494A5F464A451F132B0 wrote:
Too much cam would have the opposite effect, lowering the dynamic compression at lower rpm. That is why a V8 with a radical cam is hard to start when cold. It allows cylinder pressure to escape through the still open valve, and air velocity at cranking speed is too low to properly atomize the fuel. I would think that the Wiseco is the source of his ping. |
|
Title: Re: Cams: Stage 1 vs Stage2 vs Srage 3 Post by DragBikeMike on 03/25/18 at 12:03:54 I agree that more duration typically results in lower cranking pressure and reduces pinging. But that's all dependent on the actual valve timing. It is conceivable that the DR cam closes the intake valve earlier than the stage 3 and even earlier than the stock cam. How do we get the actual timing specs? I/O, I/C, ITDC lift, I max lift, E/O, E/C, ETDC lift, E max lift. It also might be possible to retard the cam timing about 4 degrees by repositioning the sprocket on the cam. That would improve the pinging situation. |
|
Title: Re: Cams: Stage 1 vs Stage2 vs Srage 3 Post by Fast 650 on 03/25/18 at 12:41:29 I don't have the exact opening/closing specs for the DR cam, but the duration is essentially the same as the stage 3 cam, just more lift. Stock is .254"/,244" with 224 degrees@ .050. Stage 3 is .273"/.273" and 238 degrees @ .050. DR is .345"/.355" with 238 degrees @ .040. Either the DR or stage 3 would be a considerable improvement over the stock cam. The DR will show bigger gains from port work and less restricted intake and exhaust though. |
|
Title: Re: Cams: Stage 1 vs Stage2 vs Srage 3 Post by kojones on 03/25/18 at 12:58:06 http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1431205825/0 There's one Finnish Savage with a DR650 cam. |
|
Title: Re: Cams: Stage 1 vs Stage2 vs Srage 3 Post by norm92de on 03/25/18 at 13:12:18 A question, has anybody tried to put an entire DR650 head on the LS? Not possible or what? |
|
Title: Re: Cams: Stage 1 vs Stage2 vs Srage 3 Post by Dave on 03/26/18 at 03:28:33 56574A55010A5C5D380 wrote:
Lancer has looked it over....there is a significant difference and he determined it was not doable. 475A515847010502340 wrote:
I have been watching eBay for used DR650 cams......there are plenty of later model DR cams - but a usable early cam that will work in a Savage engine is very rare. This style cam with the compression release is for the later models and it will not fit the Savage engine. https://www.ebay.com/itm/Suzuki-DR650-Camshaft-Cam-DR-650SE-se-2008/282729158567?hash=item41d3f897a7:g:52cAAOSw0exaBipp&vxp=mtr |
|
Title: Re: Cams: Stage 1 vs Stage2 vs Srage 3 Post by kojones on 03/26/18 at 03:48:07 I’ve bought two used DR cams, both have lots of pitting. Seems like a new one would be better option. |
|
Title: Re: Cams: Stage 1 vs Stage2 vs Srage 3 Post by hotrod on 03/26/18 at 09:46:56 So what years of DR cams will fit ? Is it a simple swap ? |
|
Title: Re: Cams: Stage 1 vs Stage2 vs Srage 3 Post by kojones on 03/26/18 at 09:53:14 113834343C2B68590 wrote:
’90 to ’95. Bolts right up with the Savage sprocket. DR sprocket is different. |
|
Title: Re: Cams: Stage 1 vs Stage2 vs Srage 3 Post by hotrod on 03/26/18 at 10:10:33 Thanks kojones. |
|
Title: Re: Cams: Stage 1 vs Stage2 vs Srage 3 Post by snels516 on 03/26/18 at 10:49:16 That camshaft you linked to on partzilla works? It’s about half the price of the stage three. |
|
Title: Re: Cams: Stage 1 vs Stage2 vs Srage 3 Post by batman on 03/26/18 at 11:00:39 The valve lift of .345 is outrageous for the savage ,as a general rule valve lift should only be about 25% of the valve's diameter, which creates a space equal to the size of the intake port at the valve seat (- the valve stem) , an opening larger ,wont create much more flow due to the( velocity ) inertia of the fuel mix dropping to fast as the piston moves up to TDC on the compression stroke. The extra fuel you think you might be sending in will simply stop , or be pushed back into the intake port as the piston rises. The valve lift of .355 for the exhaust is also bad has it makes wavy tuning impossible . |
|
Title: Re: Cams: Stage 1 vs Stage2 vs Srage 3 Post by mcnpnp on 03/26/18 at 11:27:15 the Lancer stage 3 cam makes the bike fun to ride. I've had one in for 3 months with no problems. |
|
Title: Re: Cams: Stage 1 vs Stage2 vs Srage 3 Post by snels516 on 03/26/18 at 11:33:22 I just ordered one earlier today as well. I’m looking forward to getting it in. I have a 94 mm Wiseco sitting here also. |
|
Title: Re: Cams: Stage 1 vs Stage2 vs Srage 3 Post by Fast 650 on 03/26/18 at 12:16:22 797A6F767A752F231B0 wrote:
Okay, that does sound logical. But there is more to it than that. The DR uses the same valves as the LS, so why doesn't that hurt the performance of the DR engine? Wouldn't that destroy the wave tuning of the DR just as much? |
|
Title: Re: Cams: Stage 1 vs Stage2 vs Srage 3 Post by Dave on 03/26/18 at 18:10:02 I don't know about the wave tuning - but I do believe the exhaust port would not allow any great benefit from lifting the valve up a bunch more than the Stage 3 cam. The exhaust port is still restrictive....no matter how far you lift the valve. (And more lift creates more wear on the guides/valve stems, and creates more stress and wear on the cam and rockers). |
|
Title: Re: Cams: Stage 1 vs Stage2 vs Srage 3 Post by batman on 03/26/18 at 23:08:36 I agree with Dave , and there are other differences in the motors ,bore and stroke for sure , that would change redline ,and maybe exhaust header length ( that would effect wavy tuning). I'm not a student of the DR650 , but we know the head design is much better ,doesn't the DR put out about 45-50 horsepower? Lancer's stage 3 cam is designed to work in the Savage the lift is .274 just a bit higher than the stock .254 and this follows what I said above ,it is just slightly more than stock, and is designed to lift higher only to compensate for the area that the valve stems take up in the intake and exhaust ports , showing the makers knew what they were doing. The bike shown above is using a 40mm carb , yet Dave and others use only a 36mm carb to obtain nearly the performance /horsepower claimed of the DR cam ,I would think with smoother running an less problems tuning. So the question is do you want to save a couple of bucks and try the DR cam hoping it will work ,or buy a stage 3 from Lancer knowing it will work ? With the DR cam I would bet mileage to be poor ,the fuel leaving the exhaust pipe unburned ,because the slow speed it is traveling into the head it fails to atomize (swirl) and doesn't burn. |
|
Title: Re: Cams: Stage 1 vs Stage2 vs Srage 3 Post by LANCER on 03/27/18 at 02:42:16 The reason the LS650 cannot use the DR cam effectively is because of the exhaust ports. The DR has beautiful straight ports that allow the gases to exit very rapidly, while the LS is stuck in a crooked world made by Suzuki. They were both made at the same time, one made to perform and the other one NOT. It was purposeful, plain and simple. They detuned the LS by making the exhaust port restrictive. Why ? ? Only one reason I can think of, they wanted the DR to be their racing engine for the dirt and did not want the LS to interfere with that. Doesn't make since to me either, why not just use the DR engine in both the dirt DR and the street LS ? Beats the heck out of me. |
|
Title: Re: Cams: Stage 1 vs Stage2 vs Srage 3 Post by Dave on 03/27/18 at 04:00:30 Stock is .254"/,244" with 224 degrees@ .050. Stage 1 is .264"/.264" with 239 degress @ .050. Stage 3 is .273"/.273" and 238 degrees @ .050. DR is .345"/.355" with 238 degrees @ .040. I thought a bit last night about my riding style, and my current engine setup. I am currently running the Stage 1 in my engine, and I have been doing that for the last 10,000 miles. The engine starts and runs great, I generally get around 52 - 56 mpg, and the bike has been up to a 100.1 mph on 3 separate tries as confirmed by my GPS speedometer......the bike just doesn't want to go any faster than that and the bike gets really light and wiggly once I get over 95mph. The majority of my riding is done at speeds under 60mph as I ride the local twisty backroads, and I am riding at less than 1/2 throttle most of the time.....and I suspect I am at 1/4 throttle or less as I negotiate the curves. I don't accelerate much on the straights between curves - I try to hold 50mph on the straights and in the curves and hold a steady speed and corner smoothly. The excitement comes from the fact that the curves are often very tight and it may not be possible to take all the curves at 50mph. So......my riding style really doesn't need lot of additional HP or valve lift for 95% of my ride. The bike runs very well, and I have plenty of HP to pass the slow cars and trucks and tractors, and the bike and tall gearing make it possible to cruise at 70-75mph easily with engine rpm around 4,000. I do need to replace the head plug on my bike....the Versy plug was not yet available when I built this engine, and last summer I had a leak at the first day of the Kick Stand Lodge trip - luckily the plug decided to stop leaking and I was able to ride the rest of the summer. I may put in a Stage 3 cams to see how it compares to the Stage 1 cam. So.....the reason for this long winded post - is that you may not need or want a DR650 cam and the high lift it provides. The Stage 1 cam provides a power boost....and likely the Stage 3 is even better. Lancer has tried all three of the grinds....and has determined that the Stage 3 is a better cam than either the Stage 1 and Stage 2 - so currently he is only getting the Stage 3 cams made. |
|
Title: Re: Cams: Stage 1 vs Stage2 vs Srage 3 Post by kojones on 03/27/18 at 06:06:03 07203235777471410 wrote:
I've been wondering how these can be compared as they're measured at different spots of rotation. Anyone now how this affects the numbers? |
|
Title: Re: Cams: Stage 1 vs Stage2 vs Srage 3 Post by kojones on 03/27/18 at 06:07:53 I've only found this: The rpm at which the engine gets "happy" can be predicted by the closing point (angle) of the intake valves. The angle is expressed as the number of degrees After Bottom Dead Center (ABDC) that the valves reach .053" from being fully seated. 30 degrees = 2400 rpm 35 degrees = 3000 rpm 40 degrees = 3600 rpm 45 degrees = 4000 rpm 50+ degrees = 4500 rpm These relationships are approximate but should hold true to within 200 rpm or so. They also assume that all other tuning factors, exhaust, ignition, etc., are operating correctly. If you have one of the late-closing cam designs installed, say one that closes the intake valves later than 40 degrees, then you cannot expect excellent performance at 2000 rpm. No carburetor adjustment, ignition adjustment or exhaust system can change this. LS650 stock Int Open 22 BTDC Int Close 59 ABDC Exh Open 64 BBDC Exh Close 14 ATDC Lift: 0.254" In / 0.244" Ex Duration: 224° @ 0.050" lift DR650 Int Open 9.5 BTDC Int Close 47.5 ABDC Exh Open 51.5 BBDC Exh Close 9.5 ATDC Lift: 0.364" In / 0.367" Ex Duration: 237° @ 0.040" lift |
|
Title: Re: Cams: Stage 1 vs Stage2 vs Srage 3 Post by kojones on 03/27/18 at 07:18:54 5A594C5559560C00380 wrote:
During the first two tanks with the DR cam I got 58 mpg, after that it's been around 45 mpg. And that was because of the break-in period with the Wiseco and with a stock carb. Now the bike has a VM36 with a UFO, really waiting for summer :D And I would really try to like the Stage 3 cam, but unfortunately it is way too expensive. I'm cheap. 8-) |
|
Title: Re: Cams: Stage 1 vs Stage2 vs Srage 3 Post by Fast 650 on 03/27/18 at 09:17:55 Lancer, that one is easy to answer. Suzuki pushed the Savage as a beginner's bike for inexperienced riders who wanted something bigger than a 250 Rebel. So they used a heavy flywheel and detuned the engine to make it more friendly for new riders. Which also explains the non-linear throttle action. The first few degrees of twist at the grip does not give the same number of degrees rotation at the throttle blade.As the grip is twisted further, the motion at the carb starts to become more linear then. All of those things would be desirable for someone just learning to ride. |
|
Title: Re: Cams: Stage 1 vs Stage2 vs Srage 3 Post by Fast 650 on 03/27/18 at 09:26:35 484C494C4D4650230 wrote:
Hey kojones, did you notice that those figures are taken at different amounts of lift? The stock numbers add up to a duration of 261 degrees. That one must have been measured from where the valve starts to move vs the .040" that the DR was measured from. |
|
Title: Re: Cams: Stage 1 vs Stage2 vs Srage 3 Post by kojones on 03/27/18 at 10:09:01 50776562202326160 wrote:
Hey kojones, did you notice that those figures are taken at different amounts of lift? The stock numbers add up to a duration of 261 degrees. That one must have been measured from where the valve starts to move vs the .040" that the DR was measured from. [/quote] Yes I did, I was wondering how the numbers change when measured at the same lift. And if I've understood correctly the Savage cam is measured with .050" lift. |
|
Title: Re: Cams: Stage 1 vs Stage2 vs Srage 3 Post by Fast 650 on 03/27/18 at 12:35:02 Well, we know that .050" lift made nearly 40 degrees difference in the duration. The difference between .040" and .050 would be a lot less. But that depends a lot on the opening and closing ramp rates too. |
|
Title: Re: Cams: Stage 1 vs Stage2 vs Srage 3 Post by batman on 03/27/18 at 20:38:11 In an ideal world ,we could put the DR650 head on the Savage ,run a stage 3 cam , and make 50 hp. both these motors have nearly the same displacement ,but are completely different. If we assume the valve size is the same as FAST650 stated ( it would be hard to make them larger in a 4 valve head) ,then how does the DR650 draw in as much fuel and expel as much exhaust gases as the Savage ,with a stroke 13% shorter? Higher valve lift, longer duration, and a better designed exhaust passage. Is the high lift of the DR cam ideal ? Hardly ! but it was the ONLY way Suzuki had to make the motor work. The shorter stroke ( thus higher rpm/hp), and the cylinder leaning forward , allowed the frame of the bike to be more compact , and weight and seat height lower . (important for a dirt/race bike).the DR650 makes 47.5 hp stock with a 9.5:1 compression ,but printouts show it only making 46.3 hp in a Savage with 97mm piston at 10.5:1 compression, after market carb and exhaust. the DR cam has 30% more lift than Lancer's stage 3 cam ,but is only making maybe 5% more power. It's my thought that the high lift of the DR cam is overkill and not suited for use in the Savage. |
|
Title: Re: Cams: Stage 1 vs Stage2 vs Srage 3 Post by DragBikeMike on 03/28/18 at 00:03:15 Observations: 1. We can't properly compare and evaluate the cams without accurate timing specifications. The 261 degree disparity for the stock cam brings into question the valve timing values. Trying to compare cams measured at different opening & closing lifts (.040 vs .050) is futile. 2. The DR 650 is an enduro bike. That's a vehicle that should be designed to have really good low-end power. A stump puller. A short duration, high lift cam with very little overlap would fit that requirement nicely. From what I can see so far, the DR650 uses a short duration, high lift cam with very little overlap. 3. Kojones has managed to assemble a combination of parts that works very nicely. Look at the dyno chart. 40.6 Ft-lbs @ 2500, 49.4 Ft-lbs @ 3300. That's sweeeeet! 4. I would not have selected the DR cam to run in the 97mm high compression engine because the intake valve closes so early. I would be concerned about detonation. But look at those numbers. It works. I wish I had some other dyno charts using other combinations. |
|
Title: Re: Cams: Stage 1 vs Stage2 vs Srage 3 Post by Dave on 03/28/18 at 03:26:47 There is no doubt that a Wiseco, a performance cam, some head work, and a better muffler can make the bike run noticeably better and allow the bike to keep up with the others....and with some gearing changes you won't be left behind when the group hits the interstate. A lighter flywheel, helps acceleration without any noticeable change in smoothness, and a non-CV carb helps a little bit with the response. Unless you are looking for the last few tenths of Max HP.....any of the performance cams are going to make a noticeable increase in the performance.. |
|
Title: Re: Cams: Stage 1 vs Stage2 vs Srage 3 Post by kojones on 03/28/18 at 03:49:19 686B7E676B643E320A0 wrote:
Actually a stock DR650 makes something like 36hp at the rear wheel. |
|
Title: Re: Cams: Stage 1 vs Stage2 vs Srage 3 Post by kojones on 03/28/18 at 03:50:25 07010E72707773430 wrote:
Actually those dyno charts aren't from my bike, although I'm going to get mine dynoed when I get it running properly, just to make sure of the jetting with the VM36. |
|
Title: Re: Cams: Stage 1 vs Stage2 vs Srage 3 Post by batman on 03/28/18 at 08:46:14 DragBikeMike, The four valve head is less likely to see detonation ,with the spark plug in the center, the flame front has to spread only half the distance of that of a two valve head,( which has a plug off to one side )and thus needs less spark advance. |
|
Title: Re: Cams: Stage 1 vs Stage2 vs Srage 3 Post by justin_o_guy2 on 03/28/18 at 10:14:37 Some of these threads just make me think I should burn my Mechanic card. |
|
Title: Re: Cams: Stage 1 vs Stage2 vs Srage 3 Post by hotrod on 03/28/18 at 10:50:08 So who is using the DR cam ? Without all the numbers, what was the result ? I want more power, but not a hand grenade. |
|
Title: Re: Cams: Stage 1 vs Stage2 vs Srage 3 Post by DragBikeMike on 04/23/18 at 14:00:52 Here are the actual timing numbers for a stock, 2016 LS650. They were all obtained using a degree wheel and dial indicator with the exception of intake valve max lift. I captured that number using a dial caliper (just not enough room with the engine in the frame to get a long travel indicator in there). The valve lash was set to .004" on all 4 valves. I don't claim to be the best mechanic on the planet, but I'm pretty decent. I am confident these values are good within a degree or two. I took the readings at both .040" lift and .050" lift per a great suggestion by Fast650. He also provided me with the stock cam dimensions for base circle (BC) and lobe height. BC is 1.183" on both lobes. Lobe heights are 1.430" intake and 1.423" exhaust. That works out to lobe lifts of .247" intake and .240" exhaust. You will see that the lift at the valve is significantly higher than the lobe lift. That's because the rocker arms are not 1:1 ratio. The numbers indicate that the rockers are about 1.38:1 ratio, hence, lots more lift and duration at the valve. The stock cam is a typical, emission compliant cam. There is ZERO valve overlap. That's because the government doesn't want the intake & exhaust open at the same time. It prevents raw fuel vapor from heading out the tailpipe at slow speed operation. Here's the no-bull data. @.040" lift IO: 16 ATC IC: 53 ABC Duration: 217 degrees Max lift: .333" TDC lift: .010" EO: 40 BBC EC: 5 BTC Duration: 215 degrees Max lift: .334" TDC lift: .026" @ .050" lift IO: 20 ATC IC: 50 ABC Duration 210 degrees Max lift: .333" TDC lift: .010" EO: 36 BBC EC: 8 BTC Duration: 208 degrees Max lift: .334" TDC lift: .026" These numbers give us a good starting point for cam comparisons. It's home base. I have a 1995 DR650 cam and intend to do some timing checks on that. It will be tricky because I intend to do the checks an a lathe and the convert the data to determine lift and timing based on rocker ratio of 1.38:1. Preliminary measurements of BC and lobe height show that max lift on the DR cam with 1.38:1 rockers will be about .339" to .342" when compensated for .004" valve lash. It should be pretty darned close to the real deal. I will keep you posted. |
|
Title: Re: Cams: Stage 1 vs Stage2 vs Srage 3 Post by batman on 04/24/18 at 20:15:51 DBM, great stuff ! thanks ! Zero overlap on the stock cam, no wonder these bikes don't run well at high rpm. Looking forward to your report on the DR cam. |
|
Title: Re: Cams: Stage 1 vs Stage2 vs Srage 3 Post by DragBikeMike on 05/03/18 at 00:40:37 I did a separate post on the DR cam. There was just too much new info to tie into this old thread. |
|
Title: Re: Cams: Stage 1 vs Stage2 vs Srage 3 Post by DragBikeMike on 05/08/18 at 12:32:31 During my installation of a DR650 cam, I was able to check the timing of the stock LS650 cam again using the head cover and rocker arms. With that setup, I could more accurately position the dial indicator, and I did not have to fight the valve springs and alternator magnets, which tend to make the engine auto-rotate. So I am correcting the timing data I previously posted. This data is certainly more accurate. @.040" lift IO: 10 ATC IC: 52 ABC Duration: 222 degrees Max lift: .345" TDC lift: .000" EO: 42 BBC EC: 4 BTC Duration: 218 degrees Max lift: .342" TDC lift: .042" @ .050" lift IO: 14 ATC IC: 48 ABC Duration 214 degrees Max lift: .345" TDC lift: .000" EO: 38 BBC EC: 8 BTC Duration: 210 degrees Max lift: .342" TDC lift: .042" |
|
SuzukiSavage.com » Powered by YaBB 2.2! YaBB © 2000-2007. All Rights Reserved. |