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Message started by DragBikeMike on 03/25/18 at 02:07:09

Title: Ignition Curve
Post by DragBikeMike on 03/25/18 at 02:07:09

Can anyone fill me in on the LS650 ignition timing curve? What is the advance at idle? What is max advance & rpm? Does this flame thrower retard the timing when the throttle is WFO?

Title: Re: Ignition Curve
Post by Dave on 03/25/18 at 04:03:59

Nobody knows........this would be a good research project for you!

Some UK bike have an electric switch mounted on the carb - we believe that bike does retard the timing at full throttle....but there is no known written documentation of what the switch does.

Title: Re: Ignition Curve
Post by DragBikeMike on 03/25/18 at 12:41:32

Ever try running one with that timing plug removed? Does it throw oil out or stay fairly dry? Maybe I can try marking the shaft and shooting that with a strobe light. Should at least be able to see if the timing changes as speed increases. Some sort of vacuum retard (similar to Harley) would be a nice touch.

Title: Re: Ignition Curve
Post by batman on 03/28/18 at 09:26:36

I have mentioned this before ,the black wire entering the TCI comes from the starter and signals the TCI to retard the timing when the starter motor is engaged. By how much is again unknown. but by placing a diode in the line( to kill any feed to the starter with the bike running) , and supplying a switch ,and power to the wire one might be able to supply , retardation at higher speeds.(don't know)

Title: Re: Ignition Curve
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 03/28/18 at 10:18:30

No diode needed here.
The faster I'm going
The more retarded I am.
The results are the testimony.

Title: Re: Ignition Curve
Post by verslagen1 on 03/28/18 at 12:24:38

494F403C3E393D0D0 wrote:

It does blow oil out with every breath.
I would remove the crank bolt, make an adapter for a timing wheel or make your own indicator plate (one notch) to keep the oil from at least blowing directly at you.

Title: Re: Ignition Curve
Post by LANCER on 03/28/18 at 16:40:41

677463627D7076747F20110 wrote:

[quote author=494F403C3E393D0D0 link=1521968829/0#2 date=1522006892]Ever try running one with that timing plug removed? Does it throw oil out or stay fairly dry? Maybe I can try marking the shaft and shooting that with a strobe light. Should at least be able to see if the timing changes as speed increases. Some sort of vacuum retard (similar to Harley) would be a nice touch.

It does blow oil out with every breath.
I would remove the crank bolt, make an adapter for a timing wheel or make your own indicator plate (one notch) to keep the oil from at least blowing directly at you.[/quote]

AND, it does so with GUSTO !

Title: Re: Ignition Curve
Post by DragBikeMike on 03/29/18 at 13:55:33

Looks like I have a project. I appreciate the input, especially the warning about "doing so with gusto". I will see what I can come up with.

Title: Re: Ignition Curve
Post by DragBikeMike on 04/21/18 at 16:57:19

Does the LS650 have a timing curve? YES

I fabricated a timing wheel assembly so that I could check ignition timing and also mount a degree wheel without tearing into the case. I don't have a tach but I can testify that advance at idle is 3 degrees BTDC and full advance is 27 degrees BTDC. That motor is really spinning at full advance, I would guess 4 or 5 thousand rpm. When running, Zero oil coming out with this rig. When you shut it down, you get maybe a teaspoon out over about an hour with the bike on the side stand. Solution, shut down, lean bike to left for about a minute, then remove the rig. Oil mess is minimal.

Here is a picture of the individual parts:

Title: Re: Ignition Curve
Post by DragBikeMike on 04/21/18 at 17:03:22

It's easy to assemble on the bike. It utilizes a ball bearing so it runs very smooth & quiet. Ties into the rotor bolt with a 12 point 17mm socket. The 12 point seems to provide a much smoother action than a 6 point. No oil spray. Easy to check timing with a strobe. Hardest part on the install is getting it dialed in to TDC. Works best to get the rear wheel off the ground, get it in gear, and tighten the rear brake to hold things in place while you install the timing wheel and zero it out.

Here's a pic of the rig installed.

Title: Re: Ignition Curve
Post by DragBikeMike on 04/21/18 at 17:04:27

Here's a pic of the rig with the ignition timing wheel installed:

Title: Re: Ignition Curve
Post by DragBikeMike on 04/21/18 at 17:05:18

Here's a different angle on the ign timing wheel install:

Title: Re: Ignition Curve
Post by DragBikeMike on 04/21/18 at 17:08:22

Here's a pic of the degree wheel installation. To mount a decent size degree wheel you need to remove the footpeg but that's pretty easy. Anybody remember Paul Dunstall?

Title: Re: Ignition Curve
Post by DragBikeMike on 04/21/18 at 17:12:41

Here's a different angle on the degree wheel. In order to take valve timing data, I intend to put the bike in 5th gear with the rear wheel elevated, adjust the rear brake to moderate drag to keep the valve springs and alternator magnets from auto rotating the beast, and rotate using the front belt pulley nut. It should be interesting. I will keep you all posted.

If you have any suggestions LMK.

Title: Re: Ignition Curve
Post by Dave on 04/21/18 at 17:44:11

Cool!

You might have better luck spinning things over by using the countershaft pulley.....instead of the rear wheel.

You can use a big socket and breaker bar on the countershaft pulley, and your face will be right up near the degree wheel.

Title: Re: Ignition Curve
Post by norm92de on 04/21/18 at 21:06:47

Mike.
You are the best. You do the work that I at least are not willing to do.
Keep it up.

Title: Re: Ignition Curve
Post by batman on 04/21/18 at 21:33:51

Great job MIKE! Can you find out the timing when the starter is engaged?

Title: Re: Ignition Curve
Post by DragBikeMike on 04/23/18 at 13:14:59

When the starter is cranking the engine, timing is still about 3 degrees BTC. I tried it several times in hope of finding a retard feature but alas, 3 degrees BTC it is. Not gonna find any relief there. I now have a manual and I see the black wire you mentioned. I guess its used as a reference for the ignition system (other systems I have worked on don't initiate spark until the engine has rotated at least one revolution) or possibly some feature like a ballast resistor on an old points system to compensate for the major decrease in battery voltage when the starter is operating under load.

Title: Re: Ignition Curve
Post by batman on 04/23/18 at 17:32:32

DBM ,thanks for taking the time to check , I didn't know what the wire did ,but assumed because it ran from the starter pos. cable that it might retard timing at startup .But perhaps it monitors voltage, ( volts drop when the starter engages) . We know voltage over 14v can cause damage to the TCI , and that voltage below 10v fails to produce a spark ,I don't know anything about circuit logic ,but does amperage tend to increase when voltage decreases? Could the TCI be shutting down to protect itself from higher amps? We know if we leave the key on without starting the bike for a extended time the TDI can burn up, is this caused by applying constant voltage ,amperage or both?

Title: Re: Ignition Curve
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 04/24/18 at 00:01:03

n't know anything about circuit logic ,but does amperage tend to increase when voltage decreases

Only if the voltage drop is caused By a decrease in resistance

Voltage drop on the battery is caused by a load , the starter.

Title: Re: Ignition Curve
Post by Armen on 04/24/18 at 02:57:34

Thanks for all your hard work and for sharing!
If the bike is really running such mild advance numbers, it either means that Suzuki is being very conservative, or that the combustion chamber is very efficient.
As to the ignition not working for the first revolution, I'm guessing that was done do eliminate kickback on starting.

Title: Re: Ignition Curve
Post by DragBikeMike on 04/25/18 at 10:19:14

Correct Armen. Some Harley ignition systems can be set for kick or electric start. In electric start mode the engine must rotate at least one full revolution before ignition system comes on line. It prevents lighting off the cylinder before the rotating assembly has gained enough inertia to overcome the combustion pressure, preventing kick back. Of course that won’t work when kick starting.