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/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> loose stone put a hole in my crankcase :( /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1512182587 Message started by renzo ramone on 12/01/17 at 18:43:05 |
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Title: loose stone put a hole in my crankcase :( Post by renzo ramone on 12/01/17 at 18:43:05 hi all, About a month ago, I Pulled up into my driveway and a loose stone hit the bottom of my engine crankcase. Puncturing my 2009 Suzuki S40 with a baseball sized hole. My Suzuki has been very reliable since I brought it a year ago... But after the hit, oil leaked out all over the floor and i haven't ridden it since. the local bike shop said I needed a new engine (which i have not seen yet at a decent price). any fellow owners of the savage/S40 had this problem or know a cheap way to fix? |
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Title: Re: loose stone put a hole in my crankcase :( Post by verslagen1 on 12/01/17 at 19:02:00 goto fleabay and get a bottom end and transfer all the good parts, there are quite a few. depending how much work you can do, it's the cheapest way. |
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Title: Re: loose stone put a hole in my crankcase :( Post by justin_o_guy2 on 12/02/17 at 02:39:54 How Daggum fast were you Goin? That's a very sad sight. Excellent opportunity to develop your skills. |
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Title: Re: loose stone put a hole in my crankcase :( Post by Dave on 12/02/17 at 04:59:32 It sure was an unlucky event.....a big hole like that sure doesn't look like something that could happen by a rock thrown by a skinny front tire on a gravel driveway - but how it happened really doesn't matter. I have never been to Texas yet - perhaps the "everything is bigger in Texas" motto is what caused a stone to do way more damage than expected. I can't think of anyway to fix that....short of replacing the cases - or bottom end - or engine. If your head, cam, piston and cylinder are in good shape, they can be moved over to a good bottom end - or you can sell them on eBay and get a good down payment on a used engine. What are you mechanical skills? How well are you stocked with tools? What is your budget? (Based on the bald rear tire I would assume you are on a pretty tight bike budget). Empty cases are generally not all that cheap, and a bottom end with the transmission in place sure does eliminate a lot of work.....as does a complete engine! However....good engines that don't need any work are rare.....most engines are from salvage bikes and were either junked as they were worn out - or crashed. Unfortunately the sellers often haven't been real careful in the dismantling process - and the engine can be stored outdoors or the engines rolled around or dragged across the floor If your bike needs and engine, tires, brakes, etc.......and you have limited mechanical ability......it might be best for you to sell this "fixer upper" and start saving to buy a replacement. |
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Title: Re: loose stone put a hole in my crankcase :( Post by renzo ramone on 12/02/17 at 06:24:07 627D7B7C61665767576F7D713A080 wrote:
Honestly, maybe I pulled in way too fast, hitting the brakes as soon as reached the driveway. Lesson learned.. |
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Title: Re: loose stone put a hole in my crankcase :( Post by renzo ramone on 12/02/17 at 06:43:26 79424F5849455E58434B46592A0 wrote:
@Dave well the entrance to my drive way has been cracking for a while, and i hadn't got around fixing it yet. while pulling up at maybe 15 mph, a loose stone collided with the bottom of my bike. and my mechanical skills are pretty limited. I can change a battery or something simple but taking apart the engine seems like a challenge.. i have the basic tools that came with the bike, but i know those are limited. and lastly my Budget is also tight, hence why i was looking for an easy fix. but it looks like there isn't one.. i may as well start saving for a new bike.. |
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Title: Re: loose stone put a hole in my crankcase :( Post by Gary_in_NJ on 12/02/17 at 07:00:10 That damage maybe presented itself when it was hit by a rock, but looking at the clean lines around the hole, that damage was caused a long time ago. That actually looks like a process failure at the factory. I know that doesn't get you back on the road, but you can stop beating yourself up about it. You didn't cause this failure. Based on the description of the tools you possess, installing a new engine is beyond your capabilities. You are probably best off selling that as a damaged bike and getting a new one. |
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Title: Re: loose stone put a hole in my crankcase :( Post by hotrod on 12/02/17 at 08:15:48 WOW . Never saw anything like that. Feel bad for you. Good luck. |
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Title: Re: loose stone put a hole in my crankcase :( Post by SALB on 12/02/17 at 08:27:17 Check the local Craigslist for wrecked bikes. You might just get lucky and find one that still runs (make sure the engine wasn't damaged in the wreck), and any parts left on the bike that are salvagable could be used on your bike or sold to offset the purchase price of the second bike. You will, however, still be stuck doing the repair/swap yourself. |
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Title: Re: loose stone put a hole in my crankcase :( Post by LANCER on 12/02/17 at 08:31:19 I had damage similar to that several years back, and though the hole was smaller the end result was the same. Not sure of your insurance but mine covered the damage. Check with your insurer and see if they cover road damage since you were riding at the time even though you were entering your driveway. My bike was not quite 2 years old and not a lot of miles, so they gave me something like $2000 for the damage. That paid for everything needed (Performance parts [ch128513]) and with hundreds left over. Yep, GOOD insurance. So ask, it can't hurt. |
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Title: Re: loose stone put a hole in my crankcase :( Post by Steve H on 12/02/17 at 10:51:13 If there's no oil passages in that area, clean the busted pieces out of the inside and JB Weld it and go riding. Just remember if you ever have to split the cases, you'll have to break the JB and then redo it when you put it back together. |
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Title: Re: loose stone put a hole in my crankcase :( Post by antmanbee on 12/02/17 at 14:29:07 You have nothing to lose at this point. What would I do if I was in the middle of nowhere. Improvise. The worst that can happen is you are where you are now. I would make a plate of steel or aluminum and put a couple of tags at the diagonal corners and undo the 2 crankcase bolts to use to attach it. make it as close a fit as possible and use some silicone gasket sealer between the plate and the engine after thorough cleaning. Make sure there is no debris in the crank case. If it works, ride it while you look for a deal on a replacement engine. |
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Title: Re: loose stone put a hole in my crankcase :( Post by renzo ramone on 12/02/17 at 15:06:13 thanks to all for the replies, My insurance isn't covering it.. so I'm going to go for broke and try to put the pieces together or metal with jb weld and see if it holds for a month or two. |
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Title: Re: loose stone put a hole in my crankcase :( Post by batman on 12/02/17 at 17:39:07 The area in question looks to be a flat enough surface if you flush out any broken pieces out of the crank case and drain all oil from the motor, I can't see why an aluminum plate couldn't be welded over the hole ,you would never be able to split the cases again , but you may never have to anyway,what do you have to lose by trying? nothing. |
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Title: Re: loose stone put a hole in my crankcase :( Post by Armen on 12/03/17 at 07:43:45 Something to think about for the folks that suggested gobbering up a plate with some gorilla snot: If the repair leaks at any time-now or in the distant future, a bunch of warm slippery oil will head toward the rear tire in a hurry. I'm one of those that believes that a painful early death is greatly over-rated as a good time ;) |
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Title: Re: loose stone put a hole in my crankcase :( Post by Ruttly on 12/03/17 at 07:53:17 No doubt Armen. It always makes my day when my bike throws me to the ground with helmet shattering force. 2.4 Qts will do it every time. I say fix it right and then make a skid plate. |
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Title: Re: loose stone put a hole in my crankcase :( Post by LANCER on 12/03/17 at 08:10:47 Make it a steel plate, not aluminum. |
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Title: Re: loose stone put a hole in my crankcase :( Post by Gary_in_NJ on 12/03/17 at 08:28:20 Arman is correct, in its current state the engine is unrepairable. The only repair are new case halves or a replacement engine. If you’ve ever considered a big bore engine, now is a good time. An engine swap for the LS650 is a significant undertaking as it can’t be removed from the frame without some degree of disassembly. I believe the head need to be removed. |
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Title: Re: loose stone put a hole in my crankcase :( Post by Ruttly on 12/03/17 at 08:40:10 No , remove exhaust , carb & forward controls and out she comes ,maybe remove the chrome head covers. |
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Title: Re: loose stone put a hole in my crankcase :( Post by Papa Bear on 12/03/17 at 08:56:08 Nobody has recommended the handyman's helper - duct tape. 8-) |
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Title: Re: loose stone put a hole in my crankcase :( Post by Fast 650 on 12/03/17 at 10:18:45 537A76767E692A1B0 wrote:
Fairly common in a collision though. Forks break or bend severely and the front wheel gets shoved into the crankcase. I got this engine from a wrecked bike with only 1500 miles on it from ebay. I had good cases on hand so I simply swapped the (nearly) new internals into the good cases. |
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Title: Re: loose stone put a hole in my crankcase :( Post by renzo ramone on 12/03/17 at 15:04:47 142738303B550 wrote:
@armen thanks for letting me know! I haven't gone down yet and oil slicked tire sounds like a hellavuh to make it happen. I'll look around at the metal plate option or sell if the price is out of my budget. |
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Title: Re: loose stone put a hole in my crankcase :( Post by Ruttly on 12/03/17 at 15:11:30 Wow , from the size of that hole it looks like you were riding in a dry riverbed ! |
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Title: Re: loose stone put a hole in my crankcase :( Post by renzo ramone on 12/03/17 at 15:17:01 7C5B494E0C0F0A3A0 wrote:
Fairly common in a collision though. Forks break or bend severely and the front wheel gets shoved into the crankcase. I got this engine from a wrecked bike with only 1500 miles on it from ebay. I had good cases on hand so I simply swapped the (nearly) new internals into the good cases. [/quote] well on the bright side, I haven't spent much effort customizing the bike, so whatever I do next isn't so bad... Buying a used decent motor and swapping the cases seems out of my budget for now. I was really looking for a $400 or less solution. |
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Title: Re: loose stone put a hole in my crankcase :( Post by Ruttly on 12/03/17 at 16:34:32 Guess I'm gonna make me a boulder deflector for the tracker. I can see that happening where and how I ride. |
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Title: Re: loose stone put a hole in my crankcase :( Post by ohiomoto on 12/04/17 at 06:31:24 Get a used Savage. If you like it, great. If you like yours better, swap motors. Then bell the rest. Someone on here will take the top end, clutch, starter, chain tensioner. Someone will take your forks, shocks, foot controls, etc. You'll be able to move your tank, seats, side panels, battery box, etc. The handlebars and hand controls will sell. The carburetor will sell. You can probably pay off the second bike when it's all done and said. EDIT: Stupid SPAM filter wouldn't let me use words like "buy" and "sell" in my original post. Nice used bikes in my area can be had for $1000-$1500. |
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Title: Re: loose stone put a hole in my crankcase :( Post by ohiomoto on 12/04/17 at 06:34:29 I have a bottom end you can have for next to nothing but it's a 4-speed unit. Not sure if the cases are any different. |
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Title: Re: loose stone put a hole in my crankcase :( Post by piedmontbuckeye on 12/04/17 at 06:55:35 If the threat of oil on the rear tire is your worry, I would quit worrying. A small drip of oil now and again will do no harm to your handling. If it would be a big enough leak to affect tire, then the engine would go quickly due to lack of oil - so . . . only a catastrophic loss of oil would present any danger. |
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Title: Re: loose stone put a hole in my crankcase :( Post by Gary_in_NJ on 12/04/17 at 07:09:26 716864656C6E6F756374626A647864010 wrote:
What if it's not a drip, but a steady stream that takes 2 to 4 minutes to evacuate the crank case. You'd be on your ass far before the engine ceased. |
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Title: Re: loose stone put a hole in my crankcase :( Post by verslagen1 on 12/04/17 at 07:38:30 7572737577756E751A0 wrote:
I haven't seen any difference in the clutch side, but the stator side is different after '95 for the starter torque limiter, which you want to keep. You'll also need to swap the rotor, timing is different between early and late models. |
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Title: Re: loose stone put a hole in my crankcase :( Post by piedmontbuckeye on 12/04/17 at 07:53:26 7B71757F747D79702E282C1C0 wrote:
What if it's not a drip, but a steady stream that takes 2 to 4 minutes to evacuate the crank case. You'd be on your ass far before the engine ceased. [/quote] ------------- No way! With the crankcase pressures and when the oil heats up, a stream would be catastrophic to engine! I know that things really get worse with a bald back tire, but normally that should not be the case. If this were welded up - even with a drip now and again, and normal, careful riding, it would not pose a problem unless there were a major change all at once - highly unlikely! |
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Title: Re: loose stone put a hole in my crankcase :( Post by justin_o_guy2 on 12/04/17 at 09:15:33 Talk to a welder about putting a plate across the hole. IDK if the heat would cause a leak at the junction of the case halves. If you pull the motor to take it to a welder run all thread or something through it and clamp it together. Rinse it out before you seal the hole. |
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Title: Re: loose stone put a hole in my crankcase :( Post by batman on 12/04/17 at 09:55:04 I can't see it being a steady stream ,the oil in the sump is under no pressure from the oil pump,the only pressure inside the case is from the pistion moving to BDC, and even that pressure is relieved by the fact that it spreads out in an area 4 to 5 times larger( The entire lower end)and it also leaves through the breather hose to the air filter box .the plate need only be welded around the outside to seal in the oil .Mig welding should work with a thin alum. plate and wire ,a steel plate could be welded across the lower frame bars as a rock shield to protect it.Expansion cracks would be minimalized by the use of alum. materials and the fact that the lower end never gets more than about 300 degrees.mig could be run up and down the case seam for a couple of inches (with minimal penetration )to insure no leaking .I don't think there are any bearing or shafts in this area so the plate need not be as thick as the rest of the case.JOG is right about needing to tightly clamp the cases together before welding. |
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Title: Re: loose stone put a hole in my crankcase :( Post by renzo ramone on 12/04/17 at 22:10:52 6760616765677C67080 wrote:
@Ohiomotor yeah saving for another bike wouldn't be so bad since the resale prices aren't bad these guys... I need to shop around town for a quote on the welding job first. anything more than half a grand and I'll consider selling the bike for parts towards a new one... thanks all for the replies. |
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Title: Re: loose stone put a hole in my crankcase :( Post by justin_o_guy2 on 12/06/17 at 20:59:45 Welding a PLATE across the hole, instead of trying to put a fitted plug In it, won't cost squat IF It's empty and cleaned up and ready to accept the plate. Pay attention to the shapes. If it's two hundred dollars you're being somewhat mistreated. At three fifty, you're in danger of getting pregnant. |
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Title: Re: loose stone put a hole in my crankcase :( Post by Dave on 12/07/17 at 05:42:10 Sorry.....I just can't believe that welding is a viable solution. The welded patch has to pass over the center case seam at the top and bottom, and I feel that the seam could either distort and leak - or the sealer and oil in the seam would outgas and contaminate the weld. Maybe an attempt to weld would be a solution if you were stranded somewhere and had no other option - and/or a possible solution if you knew how to weld and it wasn't going to cost you anything to try. I am only an amateur welder and I don't have much experience with aluminum - but I don't believe a big piece of cold aluminum makes for very good welds. When I had a repair done on an aluminum air cooled head, they took a torch and heated the aluminum very hot - so that the weld area would be hot before welding and the distortion would be minimized......then they buried the piece in a bag of oil dry so that it would cool slowly and not crack. In this situation only a limited amount of preheating could be done with the engine in the frame, and I have no idea how you would prevent the oil on the internal parts from dripping on the weld as the area gets hot. You would also have to remove all the black coating in the weld area prior to welding. If you could get a few stitch welds to hold the aluminum patch firmly in place and avoid the center seam area with the welds.....then use JB Weld around the edges of the patch to seal the area - it might work and you would have a good start on a "rat" or "steampunk" build! The broken engine has some valuable parts that include the head, cam, rockers, piston,cylinder are in good shape.....likely half the cost of a replacement engine! The big problem is the owner (renzo ramone) has admitted he only has the basic tools that come in the tiny Savage tool kit - and I can't imagine trying to do an engine swap with only those tools at hand. I believe there are a few workable options for renzo. If the goal is to get riding again ASAP......try the stitch welded patch and seal thee edges of the patch with JBWeld - it might work? Or if you want a more certain outcome you could sell the bike "as-is" and start saving for the next bike - as this one needs and engine, tires, maybe brake pads, and maybe a bit more to get it running again......and renzo will have to pay someone to do the tire swap. If the goal is to learn a bit about wrenching on motorcycles - find a local mechanic who would help you to find a good engine and do an engine swap......this may not be the least expensive solution as you will still need to do the tires and other maintenance issues - but you will gain some experience. The least viable solution would be to find a set of cases or a good lower end that you could use to replace your broken bits, as this will require gaskets and seals, and a good amount of time and an experienced mechanic with good tools. You could also get some wrenching experience and cash by taking this bike apart and selling off the pieces - it is a lot of work and requires posting a list and photos and many trips to the Post Office - but in a few months you could get enough money to help finance the purchase of another bike. |
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Title: Re: loose stone put a hole in my crankcase :( Post by LANCER on 12/07/17 at 12:05:41 00373C283D7C00333F3D3C37520 wrote:
@Ohiomotor yeah saving for another bike wouldn't be so bad since the resale prices aren't bad these guys... I need to shop around town for a quote on the welding job first. anything more than half a grand and I'll consider selling the bike for parts towards a new one... thanks all for the replies. [/quote] Sent you a PM. |
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Title: Re: loose stone put a hole in my crankcase :( Post by justin_o_guy2 on 12/07/17 at 15:06:08 Again, The Dave has seen things I haven't. The case joint seal is a real concern. And what it takes to weld aluminum isn't something I had a clue about. I had no idea what preparation was required. g in the weld area prior to welding. If you could get a few spot welds to hold the aluminum patch firmly in place and avoid the center seam area with the welds.....then use JB Weld around the edges of the patch to seal the area - it might work and you would have a If patching and riding suits you, that's a potential answer. Ride, save for a motor, build it up, swap. If it holds long enough... The other possibilities are just as worthy of consideration. |
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Title: Re: loose stone put a hole in my crankcase :( Post by piedmontbuckeye on 12/08/17 at 07:21:44 I agree, the welding angle is extremely doubtful as aluminum has special needs to be welded effectively. I still think the patching idea is best and worth a try. Cut a piece of thin alum. to put *inside* the case that will overlap the hole in places and use JBWeld (Devcon Aluminum a bit better but JB weld is good stuff), Then, put another piece of aluminum on the outside and use the JB and try to "hook" up into the hole edges. Be sure to clean thoroughly (absolutely NO oil residue). I use lacquer thinner, then Xylon to clean. As a further possibility - if you can feel up into the hole and see if there are any moving parts near the surfaces. If there are not, you could actually drill screw holes and thread, then use screws to help hold the outside plate in place.f I would do it. All you lose is time. Might work for thousands of miiles! |
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Title: Re: loose stone put a hole in my crankcase :( Post by Papa Bear on 12/08/17 at 13:19:00 We are a weird bunch .... The freaking bottom of his engine is missing and we're telling him to stick a patch on it and run it - but be careful not to fill it with Rotella T6 !! ;D |
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Title: Re: loose stone put a hole in my crankcase :( Post by piedmontbuckeye on 12/08/17 at 14:25:52 3F3E31303332353437060 wrote:
That's the beauty of our "diversity." !!!!! :D ;D :) |
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Title: Re: loose stone put a hole in my crankcase :( Post by eau de sauvage on 12/09/17 at 02:23:39 @Armen, you don't even need a bodgy repair, my spanking new bmw LS650 blew a rear main seal. I didn't find out till I was halfway to over taking a long 18 wheeler, I couldn't hear the engine it was so noisy, the traffic was coming towards me as I was now on the wrong side of the road and I was twisting the throttle but not going anywhere. I could see the tacho swinging wildly but nothing was happening. I managed to pull back in behind the truck just in time and discover the rear wheel was covered in oil. And the dry clutch was soaked as well hence the tacho. I won't forget that weekend in a hurry as it was the weekend when Australia's winged keel 12 metre yacht took the Americas Cup for the first time in a million years. I spent the weekend in a crappy motel waiting for the bmw dealership to open. |
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Title: Re: loose stone put a hole in my crankcase :( Post by Armen on 12/09/17 at 07:29:10 Holy crap Eau! Thankful you lived to tell the story. One of my students in my mc'y maintenance class showed up last week with an '03 Sporty. His first bike. Engine is covered in oil. I ask him when was the last time he changed the oil? He says that it leaks so much, he jut adds oil. Showed him the path of the oil under the engine heading to the rear wheel. Pointed out how little fun life might be if you spend it in a metal chair with large wheels on the sides, pissing into a bag taped to your waist. Blank look. Fix the bike before you crash! BTW, the front tire was the original from '03. Dry rot, bald, and 10 PSI of air. Some folks should not be riding bikes. |
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Title: Re: loose stone put a hole in my crankcase :( Post by badwolf on 12/09/17 at 08:11:45 Aemen, He was in a maintenance class? Was that for riders to maintain their own bikes, or to be a mechanic? If he could not figure that out for himself,,, there is NO hope for him. Maybe he should go into retail,,, a shoe salesmen perhaps. Does he look like Al Bundy??? |
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Title: Re: loose stone put a hole in my crankcase :( Post by norm92de on 12/09/17 at 20:15:15 I'm afraid that with that kind of crankcase damage the only remedy is to replace the cases. Nothing else will take care of it. Selling the bike for parts will be a lot of work but will in the end realise more cash than any other way. However, it will go a long way towards paying for a new bike. Sometimes it is best to face up to the inevitable. :'( |
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Title: Re: loose stone put a hole in my crankcase :( Post by ohiomoto on 12/10/17 at 17:24:08 7F7E637C28237574110 wrote:
Why do that when we'll just keep posting a bunch of mostly useless ideas? Page 4, here we come!! ;D |
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Title: Re: loose stone put a hole in my crankcase :( Post by piedmontbuckeye on 12/11/17 at 07:00:52 4641404644465D46290 wrote:
Why do that when we'll just keep posting a bunch of mostly useless ideas? Page 4, here we come!! ;D[/quote] If I had the bike here, I would bet that I could make something work - maybe look like gobbelty-gook, but it would buy some time - maybe even years until it needs to be torn down! Who knows? |
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Title: Re: loose stone put a hole in my crankcase :( Post by justin_o_guy2 on 12/11/17 at 07:30:21 I'd cobble something together. Might look like that poo flinging monkey hit it, but I think it would be worth a try. |
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