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/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> Need help with wiring for battery /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1511902381 Message started by DAldrich2516 on 11/28/17 at 12:53:01 |
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Title: Need help with wiring for battery Post by DAldrich2516 on 11/28/17 at 12:53:01 Hello all, Before I begin, I just bought this bike and am new to this forum. I have searched the forum to try and find the answer to my question, to no avail. If I missed a forum already covering this, please let me know; it's not just me being lazy. Here goes nothing... I was in Ohio for work and just bought a 2008 Savage a week and a half ago. Stock as they come. No modifications done (yet), roughly 4500 miles on it. 1 previous owner, who bought it, thought it was too much, and sold it. I have basic mechanical knowledge - an engineering degree while still building up the hands-on skills. Go ahead, let the jokes fly lol. Located in Connecticut. Before I bought the bike, I took it for a test ride. Worked absolutely fine, no problems whatsoever. No areas of concern whatsoever. Signed the paperwork, clean title, I mean, honestly, this bike seems like it could have been brand new. Loaded it up on the truck, strapped her in, and drove home. Took it off the truck and put it in the garage. Next day, I tried to turn it on (being the kid with a brand new toy), and it wouldn't start. Nothing. No engine turn over, no lights, nothing. Thought to myself it would be rather strange, but maybe the battery is dead for whatever reason. Take the battery cover off and immediately find the wiring going from the battery sitting there right in front of me. Black and red are hooked up on the terminals on the battery, but leaving the battery is completely exposed. Now besides my first question being how in the hell could this have happened... I tried to solve it, like any good engineer. ;D I bought the service manual, and found the wiring diagram for my year's bike, but I am confused by what the diagram is showing and what is actually on the bike. Has anybody had this happen? Can you help a newbie with a fix? It honestly seemed pretty straightforward, which is adding to the frustration. Pictures and explanations will be loaded below. |
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Title: Re: Need help with wiring for battery Post by Gary_in_NJ on 11/28/17 at 12:58:10 Welcome to the forum. With a little more info we can probably get you going. What does this mean "but leaving the battery is completely exposed"? Is the battery showing 12.5-12.8VDC? There is a 20A fuse in the wiring harness near the battery. If the battery is showing that it is holding a charge, I'd check that. If the battery is dead, it was either transported with the ignition switch/key in the on position, or there is a short to ground or drain in the harness. |
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Title: Re: Need help with wiring for battery Post by DAldrich2516 on 11/28/17 at 13:02:02 Wiring diagram. Follow the connections from the battery to the fuse box for red wiring and B/W going to tail brake light on one side and engine on the other. |
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Title: Re: Need help with wiring for battery Post by DAldrich2516 on 11/28/17 at 13:05:57 The fuse box, as determined by google searches and opening it up. Note that all four wires are in there. |
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Title: Re: Need help with wiring for battery Post by DAldrich2516 on 11/28/17 at 13:07:12 This was the 2 to 1 connection as shown on the wiring diagram. |
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Title: Re: Need help with wiring for battery Post by Gary_in_NJ on 11/28/17 at 13:09:19 If the fuse is in good condition, the cables from the battery are secure, and you have voltage, then the problem is probably a loose connection at the ignition switch. There is a green connector attached to the harness from the key switch. Disconnect it and check for corrosion or a lose terminal or pin. Reconnect the to the harness and see if that clears the problem. If not, I'd check continuity through the connector and through the switch itself. Red wires are (+) and are not switched, orange wires are (+) after the switch. |
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Title: Re: Need help with wiring for battery Post by justin_o_guy2 on 11/28/17 at 13:09:31 Known It started and ran. So, what's NOT wired correctly? No blown fuses? Test that battery. Don't FIX anything until you know if that battery is good. |
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Title: Re: Need help with wiring for battery Post by Gary_in_NJ on 11/28/17 at 13:15:51 544B4D4A5750615161594B470C3E0 wrote:
Just because it ran on test drive day doesn't mean there isn't a problem. Sellers are known to do bad things. 544B4D4A5750615161594B470C3E0 wrote:
I'd start there. Even if the battery is dead, give it a good charge to see if it holds a charge 1) attached to the bake and 2) not attached to the bike. Don't rip into things just yet. If you can get her running you can check the voltage to determine if the charging system is working. |
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Title: Re: Need help with wiring for battery Post by DAldrich2516 on 11/28/17 at 13:19:46 Hopefully this picture is clear. So this is the wiring coming off of the fuse box. There is another red wiring that runs up the length of the frame, and underneath the gas tank. I'm sorry, but I don't remember where it goes to. I'll have to look again later. Please advise on any incorrect info I labeled in the picture. |
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Title: Re: Need help with wiring for battery Post by DAldrich2516 on 11/28/17 at 13:22:45 So there is a slot that is open on this connector, with the black and red wire connected on the bottom. Although the wiring diagram says "B/W" it is actually a "B/R" wire for the negative terminal. Any chance it could go on top? |
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Title: Re: Need help with wiring for battery Post by Gary_in_NJ on 11/28/17 at 13:26:02 SLOW DOWN! If the bike ran before, it should run again. Riding on a trailer from OH to CT usually doesn't destroy a wire harness. But an engineer looking for problems usually does. What is the condition of the battery? Does it hold a static charge? Do you have continuity through the fuse circuit? Do you have continuity through the switch? LEAVE THE HARNESS ALONE FOR NOW. |
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Title: Re: Need help with wiring for battery Post by justin_o_guy2 on 11/28/17 at 13:26:47 The single most important thing is Remain cool and be patient. We can walk you through this But not being there makes it slower. It Ran. Didn't melt wires. I'm betting the guy charged a crap battery up. If the wiring was wrong, odds are it would blow a fuse or melt wires. If you aren't certain about how things go, use tape, make labels, take pictures, |
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Title: Re: Need help with wiring for battery Post by DAldrich2516 on 11/28/17 at 13:34:04 OK, I appreciate the quick feedback all! I will answer these one by one. Gary_in_NJ (1) - I think you picked up on this by now, but the wiring leaving the battery was exposed. The wiring that is supposed to be connected to the battery was properly connected. I have not yet checked the battery voltage, but I will tonight. The key was taken out of the ignition before I left. justin_o_guy2 - See answer above. Fuses appear to be fine. Gary_in_NJ (2) - True, but the guy had the bike running and guided it up the ramp. Call me naive, but I think that would be a pretty quick move if he did that. OK, I do understand checking the battery and will do so. But it was not the battery that was the issue. The wiring LEAVING the battery was exposed. I can send a picture if this is not clear. |
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Title: Re: Need help with wiring for battery Post by Gary_in_NJ on 11/28/17 at 13:43:33 Yeah, I'd get some electrical tape on the exposed red and orange wires. After they are tape wrapped I'd also ziptie them to the adjacent harness so they don't more around. Your harness probably isn't scorched, the fuse would have blown. And as crappy as the wire harness looks...well...that's what a harness looks like on a budget bike. I don't know why the tape on those positive wires was removed...could have been how the previous owner decided to charge the battery without having to remove it. People do strange things. Let's get it running, then you can get it right once you understand what it is you have and how it's working. |
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Title: Re: Need help with wiring for battery Post by verslagen1 on 11/28/17 at 14:47:49 Won't start? kickstand down? must be in neutral. kill/run switch? ig switch? clutch in? push the button. |
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Title: Re: Need help with wiring for battery Post by bobert_FSO on 11/28/17 at 15:57:34 Verslagen mentions all the obvious that a newb might overlook. I'll admit that I have been bit by both the clutch switch and the kill switch on the left handlebar. Finding out that the kill switch is engaged is the most embarrassing. Edit. The kill switch is on the right handlebar! |
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Title: Re: Need help with wiring for battery Post by DAldrich2516 on 11/28/17 at 16:13:09 I removed the electrical tape from the harness. I did this in an effort to see if I could connect the wires anywhere. That is the only thing I did. I have not touched/disconnected/done anything otherwise. I will be re-taping it when it is fixed. I just checked the VDC of the battery. It is in fact low (2.7V), so I will charge it overnight. While that will definitely solve a future problem, I still have to splice the battery cables to the other wiring to get things going. Any clues on where the actual connections are? Once I get that taken care of, I can re-tape everything and hit the road, finally. verslagen, that's what I'm aiming for! ;D |
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Title: Re: Need help with wiring for battery Post by batman on 11/28/17 at 16:53:04 -The key was taken out before transport - Be aware that the key can be removed in two positions ,turned to the left (normal) but if you turned it to the right it turns on the rear brake light (as a parking light) but the key can still be removed. This could have killed the battery overnight, and the reason you have no power. Gary is right, charge the battery or jumpstart the bike from another vehicle (not running),before you over engineer the problem. :) welcome ! |
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Title: Re: Need help with wiring for battery Post by DAldrich2516 on 11/28/17 at 17:00:48 @Batman, well that's definitely good to know for the future. Thank you for the heads up! |
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Title: Re: Need help with wiring for battery Post by batman on 11/28/17 at 17:09:01 IT's not like anyone here has ever done that ::) Another thing you should know is that if you leave the key on without the bike running for a long time, you can burn up (melt?) the diodes in the TDI ignition box(cost to replace ,about $480). |
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Title: Re: Need help with wiring for battery Post by Gary_in_NJ on 11/28/17 at 17:35:23 Lets see if the battery holds a static charge. When you get it going after an overnight charge, check the charging system to rule that out. |
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Title: Re: Need help with wiring for battery Post by norm92de on 11/28/17 at 17:51:20 I sincerely hope that the previous owner didn't just charge the battery with a kaput charging system. :'( |
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Title: Re: Need help with wiring for battery Post by justin_o_guy2 on 11/28/17 at 17:53:50 It's So Easy to haul the battery to the parts store and have it charged and tested. Not knowing what the owner knows about things, it's the safe option, IMO. |
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Title: Re: Need help with wiring for battery Post by batman on 11/28/17 at 20:11:51 Your new so I should also run this by you, the starter motor is sealed ,so has no cooling. Extended use will overheat it and the magnets glued to the inside of the case will fall off ruining the starter.If the bike doesn't start in the first few rotations ,you should stop long enough to allow it to cool before trying it again. If the battery voltage falls to about 10 volts while running the starter you'll have no spark at the plug. |
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Title: Re: Need help with wiring for battery Post by DAldrich2516 on 11/28/17 at 21:22:07 OK, I do appreciate all of the insight, but I'm just going to stick with charging the battery overnight (I have a small charger that is designed for this size) and then splicing the battery cables back where they need to go. Anything else that happens after that is why forums like this are made. ;) |
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Title: Re: Need help with wiring for battery Post by Ruttly on 11/29/17 at 06:28:04 Confused yet , it's ok to have a Glorious Failure sometimes ! I will offer you two hundred american dollars for the bike ! ;D ;D ;D |
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Title: Re: Need help with wiring for battery Post by DAldrich2516 on 11/29/17 at 06:40:58 OK friends, so I charged it overnight and just checked it, it is all good at 12 VDC. Now that that is taken care of, I have to take care of the wiring. I will attempt it again today and write back regardless of the outcome. @Ruttly - good one. |
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Title: Re: Need help with wiring for battery Post by DAldrich2516 on 11/29/17 at 08:34:01 Just so we are clear, this is what I have been referring to. I think it is cleared up by now, but I know there was some confusion earlier in the thread. |
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Title: Re: Need help with wiring for battery Post by justin_o_guy2 on 11/29/17 at 09:14:40 A Hot battery should be 12.5 volts. Static voltage matters, but the Under Load voltage is critical. If it's low it can spin the motor but not spark the plug. Check the battery voltage While the starter motor is working If it's not starting. |
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Title: Re: Need help with wiring for battery Post by batman on 11/29/17 at 09:57:53 From the pic above, those just look like pigtails the PO put on so as not to remove the battery when charging, but with the ends stripped and bare they could have shorted the battery if they touched the frame/each other during transport ,Not knowing the age of the battery/condition /damage ,it might be a good idea to buy a new one and start fresh.(I'd take those wires off and toss them)There are chargers that come with leads like these ,but they run together and end in a connector matching one coming from the charger ,this type of setup would be OK. |
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Title: Re: Need help with wiring for battery Post by norm92de on 11/29/17 at 10:18:15 Did the guy use wire nuts to connect the battery? It looks something like that. |
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Title: Re: Need help with wiring for battery Post by Gary_in_NJ on 11/29/17 at 10:55:06 I'm not too sure of what I'm looking at with the battery photo. There should be a positive cable that goes to the starter and a positive wire that connects to the harness, and a negative cable that grounds to the frame (or is the engine) and a negative wire that connects to the harness. Do you have an extra set of wires that had were just striped bare and left like that? If that's the case, the previous owner was a moron. Id be very suspect of any maintenance he performed. |
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Title: Re: Need help with wiring for battery Post by DAldrich2516 on 11/29/17 at 13:25:16 Update! So thanks to Batman, I’m assuming those are pigtails. I popped the battery back in, hooked it up, pulled the choke and did F-I-N-E and it started right up! New problem >:( Engine came to a stop with choke pulled. Nothing new there. Pushed the choke in (= no choke) and tried again to start it up. No start. Now I’m getting the dreaded “no start, clicking noise” I’ve read so much about. Threw the multimeter on the battery, still showing 11.45V. Is this now a replace the battery issue or a starter issue? |
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Title: Re: Need help with wiring for battery Post by bobert_FSO on 11/29/17 at 13:35:56 That battery is toast. The PO probably pulled it off a charge 10 minutes before you came to look at the bike. |
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Title: Re: Need help with wiring for battery Post by batman on 11/29/17 at 13:38:08 Either you didn't run long enough to recharge the battery (but you should be able to start several times on the battery if the motor is warm) but you should brake down and get a new one,(so the bike won't leave you far from home)that's what I'd do. Peace of mind is worth the price of a battery. |
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Title: Re: Need help with wiring for battery Post by DAldrich2516 on 11/29/17 at 13:43:18 That’s what I was figuring. I’ll see if I can get a new one tomorrow, and let you know the results. Thank you again for the patience and help. Much appreciated from a rookie. |
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Title: Re: Need help with wiring for battery Post by verslagen1 on 11/29/17 at 13:58:07 I believe the hook up wire on the battery are #8 or #10. |
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Title: Re: Need help with wiring for battery Post by Gary_in_NJ on 11/29/17 at 13:59:04 404D40475056220 wrote:
Agreed. |
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Title: Re: Need help with wiring for battery Post by justin_o_guy2 on 11/29/17 at 14:23:44 You're ahead. Now you can get a good one and not be surprised when it won't start in a month. |
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Title: Re: Need help with wiring for battery Post by Ruttly on 11/29/17 at 15:12:42 Is that a SS record ? 3 pages for a dead battery ! ;D ;D ;D |
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Title: Re: Need help with wiring for battery Post by Ruttly on 11/29/17 at 15:14:18 Wait I jumped the gun , it ain't runnin yet ! |
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Title: Re: Need help with wiring for battery Post by Gary_in_NJ on 11/30/17 at 10:45:04 4A6D6C6C7461180 wrote:
Be easy on the new member...although he did qualify himself as being an engineer. I'm assuming he's an ME, not an EE. I believe this would be a classic example of Occam's razor; "among competing hypotheses, the one with the fewest assumptions should be selected" - or - start with the simple solution first. |
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Title: Re: Need help with wiring for battery Post by IslandRoad on 11/30/17 at 10:55:40 212B2F252E27232A747276460 wrote:
Be easy on the new member...although he did qualify himself as being an engineer. I'm assuming he's an ME, not an EE. I believe this would be a classic example of Occam's razor; "among competing hypotheses, the one with the fewest assumptions should be selected" - or - start with the simple solution first. [/quote] These types of threads also generate a whole bunch of gems of knowledge for those of us who read along :) |
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Title: Re: Need help with wiring for battery Post by DAldrich2516 on 11/30/17 at 11:02:00 Like I said, let the jokes fly. I laid it out in the first post lol, and yup, I'm an ME. No use in getting butthurt in front of a group of bikers. |
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Title: Re: Need help with wiring for battery Post by Gary_in_NJ on 11/30/17 at 11:41:30 181D30382E353F346E696D6A5C0 wrote:
Dude, I did the same exact thing once. I have installed probably a dozen aftermarket stereo's in cars though the years. A few years back I bought a head unit with GPS and all of the bells and whistles for my son's first car. The plan was to use the existing OEM amps already installed. I got the thing, made a conversion harness on the bench, checked continuity and hooked it all up. The unit was getting power, but no sound. I rechecked my work a over and over, Finally I called Cruchfield (great company BTW) to get an RMA, because obviously this thing was defective. They put me through to tech support. I told the guy "I don't need tech support. I'm a friggin' engineer - I'm sure I can handle a simple radio installation". He says "tell me about your wire harness". So I run through it all. He says "sounds right, but you didn't mention the blue automatic antenna wire." "The car doesn't have a retractable antenna" I told him. His reply was classic - "well, if you read the instructions Mr. Engineer, you would have discovered that the blue wire is used to turn-on the OEM amp." The silence on my end was deafening. I hated that guy, and loved him at the same time. Welcome aboard! |
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Title: Re: Need help with wiring for battery Post by Ruttly on 11/30/17 at 12:05:11 I'll come clean too ! When I got my Savage home it took me a hour to figure out all the switches kick stand , clutch , neutral to get it started. So who better to raz you than someone who has been there and done that ! Just havin some newbie fun , Welcome to SS . |
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Title: Re: Need help with wiring for battery Post by Ruttly on 11/30/17 at 12:08:02 Ahem , 4 pages ;D |
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Title: Re: Need help with wiring for battery Post by ohiomoto on 11/30/17 at 20:41:47 747E7A707B72767F212723130 wrote:
Truly classic! |
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Title: Re: Need help with wiring for battery Post by Ruttly on 11/30/17 at 21:02:32 Can't wait cause you know he's going to ask the big O question ! |
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Title: Re: Need help with wiring for battery Post by DAldrich2516 on 12/11/17 at 14:59:37 Hey everybody! Remember me??? Bought a new battery, got the sulfuric acid (SG 1.265) poured it in, let it sit, topped it off, and charged it. Currently at 12.75VDC. No start. Has electricity flowing (lights are on), but still clicking. What next? The starter? Solenoid? Always said I wanted to learn how to work on bikes. Never thought I would have to on a bike that was previously running.... |
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Title: Re: Need help with wiring for battery Post by justin_o_guy2 on 12/11/17 at 15:38:38 Test for voltage at the starter when you hit start. |
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Title: Re: Need help with wiring for battery Post by justin_o_guy2 on 12/11/17 at 15:41:54 If it's not there Check out the solenoid. Doesn't cost anything to check fuses. Be in neutral . Clutch pulled Kill switch set to run |
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Title: Re: Need help with wiring for battery Post by batman on 12/18/17 at 16:56:11 You may also want to check the large ground wire which is connected to the right side case just above the oil sight glass , as it is the wire that completes the circuit from the starter motor ,it needs to be clean and tight. The ground for the lights being the separate smaller wire running to the ground terminal of the battery , you may have lights ,but the starter will not run. |
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