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SuzukiSavage.com
/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> Big Bore Bobber Build /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1511188748 Message started by Christof13T on 11/20/17 at 06:39:07 |
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Title: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by Christof13T on 11/20/17 at 06:39:07 So I have been a little busy getting ready for the jug and new piston to come back from Bill at Bore-Tech.com with a few mild appearance modifications. Stock saddle, turn signals, airbox, rear pegs, rear signal bracket arms, and about 10lbs of the rear fender are gone. Replaced the seat with a solo coil sprung bobber pad. Replaced the signals with some very small profile black smoked bullets. Got a base coat of satin black on everything that will get rhino lined... She looks really good in black and high gloss polished aluminum... I spent a good 20 hours at the bench buffer with jewelers rouge with the engine covers, front drive pulley cover, exhaust heat shield, rear brake housing plate(too lazy to look up the correct nomenclature at the moment lol). Mounting the solo seat was as easy as chopping the stock seat bolt brackets off the frame and welding in some gussets I made from some 1" flat stock. Drilled a hole in each gusset for a hex head bolt to fit into from inside and sticking out the bottom of the spring... wingnut on the other side of the gusset that backs against the rear fender... very difficult to get to so I don't have to worry about drunk bums trying to steal souvenirs in the middle of the night lol. Airbox was replaced with a RYCA pancake style chrome flavored filter. Seems to be worth the 25$ or so I paid for it. I went with a 6Sigma jet kit for 45$ or so and am not impressed. It came with 2 main jets and one secondary... the teflon spacer included did not even fit my needle... the i.d. is too tight. I figured I would give them a chance and review my experiences with their kit here with you fine fellows for critique. The head is ported and polished... A whole lot of meat can come out of that exhaust port! Just dont overdo it... Your just looking for a smooth transition out of the ports, into the collector... and out into the manifold/header. I know this won't do diddly squat for real numbers until I ditch the stock pipe... But it's what I got for now. I went with a little conservative finesse while chopping the rear fender. I wanted to lose some of that ridiculous weight and length while still maintaining the ability to hang bags from somewhere. I'm really looking at a pair of 20mm ammo cans for that job. I drew my mock up lines with welding layout chalk freehand... and cut it with a 4" harbor freight angle grinder with a cut off wheel. Deburred, contoured, smoothed and finished the lines with a harbor freight 4" flapper disk on the same angle grinder. Gave the paint a good scuff, hit it with the acetone... and rattle canned it with krylon. Remounting the tail light was a matter of using the rubber cushion as a template and drilling 4 holes in the fender. There was already a hole present for the rearmost tail light mounting screw but needed the other 2, and a hole to feed the tail light pigtail through the fender. The 4th hole was for the tail light and turn signal pigtails to run back through the other side. There was a perfect pilot hole already there for locating. The front turn signal mounting clamps were badly... Badly coroded. Almost beyond the help of a wire wheel, let alone a polishing buffer... so I got them as smooth as I could (after pulling the forks and removing them of course) and bathed them in blackness. The new signals fit in place like they were custom fabricated to do so. I still need to rob the connectors off the front signals to keep the bike side wiring harness as factory as I can... But everything is so far happily going back together. Much happier than disassembly! lol Some more pictures should follow. This first image is where I am with it as of right now. |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by Christof13T on 11/20/17 at 06:40:54 Laying out my lines. |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by Christof13T on 11/20/17 at 06:41:53 I like a slightly curvy rear end... |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by Christof13T on 11/20/17 at 06:43:22 Other side. |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by Christof13T on 11/20/17 at 06:44:02 Choppy Chop! |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by Christof13T on 11/20/17 at 06:44:47 Houston, We have separation! |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by Christof13T on 11/20/17 at 06:46:52 First look on the bike after paint. |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by Christof13T on 11/20/17 at 06:48:24 With regulator mounted back in place and everything in back all wired back up. Closer look at the seat brackets. |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by Christof13T on 11/20/17 at 06:50:32 Shiny aluminium! They all came out at least this bright. The head covers are almost blinding lol. |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by Christof13T on 11/20/17 at 06:54:07 That tail light is eventually gonna go... Hideous (says the better half)lol. |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by Eegore on 11/20/17 at 07:13:35 Where did you get that seat? |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by Christof13T on 11/20/17 at 09:24:21 6747454D5047220 wrote:
It was like 40$ on ebay. |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by Eegore on 11/20/17 at 12:29:28 Ok I will look around. I like that it sits lower than the BCB ones, I will have to have people try it out and see if its comfortable. |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by Christof13T on 11/20/17 at 17:53:48 4E6E6C64796E0B0 wrote:
It may sit lower because of where I welded in the rear mount gussets for the springs. The front mount was pretty freaking close to just bolting right up to the original seat clamp doo dad at the rear of the tank... I had to slot the hole in the bracket and punch a hole in the middle of the seat clamp bracket doo dad for the front seat mount bolt to go in. I went about as low as I possibly could with the gussets in the rear. It is actually very comfortable in its current configuration. My butt now sits a good 4-5" lower than with the stock seat which straightens m back up for a much more comfortable upright position. |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by Christof13T on 11/21/17 at 06:29:37 I got the confirmation and invoice email from Bill at Bore-Tech yesterday afternoon that it is complete! It is now with Fedex on its way back to me. Tracking shows it should be delivered Thursday(gobble gobble). Was hoping to get it back and all put back together in time to ride it a few hundred miles that day but I guess it is what it is. The real pits of it is that it is a signature required delivery so I'll be stuck here waiting on it lol. Can't complain too much about the price... It was a bit more than I expected (going by the pricing guide posted on his site) but it is still less than half of what a new jug would run... If one could be found lol. Total came out to 225$ even for bore, hone, and carbide coat 1 cylinder. Shipping was another 30$. As soon as I got the invoice I checked the price guide to compare and on the home screen of the bore-tech website is some sad news for other fellows looking to go down this path... Bill is closing the doors at Bore-Tech as of Dec 1, 2017. Unless there are others already in the shop in line for work... Mine will likely be the last savage jug to have the Bore-Tech treatment. I spent a few hours last night cleaning off old gaskets, and more cleaning in general. I still need to clean the rest of the gunk off the head(ran out of parts cleaner lol)... but I'm feeling pretty confident about how nice and shiny I got everything else looking. I started fiddling with the electrical system to ensure I have the correct side signals to the correct side harness leads... but cant get anything to power up. Looking at the wiring diagram in my Clymer has me thinking it wants the side stand circuit plugged back in maybe to complete a missing circuit? Or am I missing the primary ground since the motor (and the starter contained within) are still sitting on my table... I'll just wait to mess with it until I can get it all hooked back up with the motor back in. |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by justin_o_guy2 on 11/21/17 at 08:57:07 We've got machinists on the forum who could possibly pick up the ball and run with it. Certainly the TKat brace is inside the envelope of. |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by Eegore on 11/21/17 at 12:07:32 The closure of Bore-Tech is unfortunate. I was going to look into having this done on two engines. |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by Dave on 11/21/17 at 12:28:56 Bill Moeller at BoreTech is/was the "go to" guy for having cylinder and head work done on your motorcycle. He wasn't just a good machinist, he was a motorcycle machinist, enthusiast, and competitor. When you had Bill do work for you - you knew that it was being done right! He has been trying to find a young fellow as an apprentice for years....it is a shame he couldn't find the right guy. |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by Christof13T on 11/21/17 at 19:49:49 I would take it up in a heartbeat if I had the machines on hand to put my abilities to good function. I did hear of a local engine guy looking for a metal cuter in his shop... I may lurk over one day this week and interview him... lol Bee season is slowing down and I'm gonna get bored after I get this bik back together and rebuild the transmission on my yzf... Wouldn't mind cutting on some metal again for a while... |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by justin_o_guy2 on 11/22/17 at 02:17:12 7E45485F4E42595F444C415E2D0 wrote:
Just interest isn't Enough. Not everyone Can do that work, no matter how desperately they want to. Why people are not interested is baffling. Machine work, welding, both just a fraction short of magic. |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by ohiomoto on 11/22/17 at 04:58:09 That's too bad. Bore-Tech was a savior for many in motocross when the OEMs started using Nikasil coatings. Not long after and Bore-Tech started offering their replating services. Nikasil cylinders were awesome. They would last forever (I never wore one out), but once it got damaged, your cylinder was trash. Throwing out a cylinder sucked. Throwing out a cylinder that you spent a butt load of money on having it ported sucked hard. |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by Christof13T on 11/23/17 at 22:31:43 FedEX tracking has my jug marked for delivery on schedule by e.o.b. tomorrow. Hope everybody had a good turkey day... |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by RazBarlow on 11/24/17 at 06:29:34 I have used U.S. Chrome for plating cylinders for the past 20 years . They repair , bore , sleeve , plate and replate cylinders . |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by Christof13T on 11/25/17 at 12:15:29 Jug was delivered yesterday around 0930... It took a little longer than I would have liked getting it back together... kept second guessing myself lol. The engine is back in the frame, all hooked back in to the electricals... and it wants to be alive again! I still need to run up and get some fancy gas for it and fill the crankcase with some oil and it is pretty much ready to fire up. I just finished fixing my turn signal wiring screw ups lol.. crossed the polarity on 2 of them on opposing sides so it was fun tracking down the culprits... but they all blink like they are supposed to now. I still want to do something for the dang tank bezel vibration before I get it all bck together. I hope to take it for it's re-maiden ride before dark! |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by Ruttly on 11/25/17 at 19:21:01 There is a fix for the bezel , maybe in the tech section ! |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by Christof13T on 11/26/17 at 08:14:02 0E29282830255C0 wrote:
I had read a couple threads about it and slightly augmented the mod. I cut 3 pieces about 1/4" long of some vinyl tubing to act as a bit of a damper between the little tabs on the tank and the posts. So I put on the little pieces of tubing... placed the bezel in its hole... and replaced the factory springs, washers, and nuts... No vibrations so far. Here is an attempt at posting a video of the first start. http://youtu.be/rzHV4d8CeHE |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by Christof13T on 11/26/17 at 08:20:39 Another video. This is the first test ride on the fresh build. http://youtu.be/-1gxJMJjViQ |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by Christof13T on 11/26/17 at 10:28:23 Pictures of her current condition... |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by Christof13T on 11/26/17 at 10:28:55 and another... |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by Christof13T on 11/26/17 at 10:29:24 and another... |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by Christof13T on 11/26/17 at 10:29:48 and one more... |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by Christof13T on 11/29/17 at 07:02:36 We have put 125 miles on it over the last few days. The build seems to be holding together beautifully. The sewing machine like consistency of the rotating assembly and valve train chorus the steady meat of the exhaust thumping the ground beneath your feet. The thump of the higher compression is blatantly more noticeable at every point your body makes contact with the dragon in flight. It has become more beast than machine... My better half has put most of the new miles on the clock. Yesterday was our 3rd time out riding with it... and her 3rd time riding a bike in 15+ years. I figured break in would coincide with a "new" rider just fine. The thing now has ... well to be honest... just stoopid gobs of turn you inside out power. But it is AMAZINGLY controllable. As she is getting more confident in her abilities and mor comfortable with the bike... The throttle gets a little more extra roll a little more often. The few times she has really got on it, I could not keep up with her on my YZF600R. When she is fully confident to full throttle drag launch I am betting the Savage will straight up smoke me on the Thundercat. My Kitty is pushing at this point around 120+ at 600lbs and I'm 168lbs. I know they shouldn't be any where near the final numbers after break in but I will take it up and fill the tank again after the ride on the fresh fill up yesterday of 50 miles and get an estimate of efficiency. A light tan/gold discoloration is starting to show on the pipe but no new blue spots from what I didn't get when I buffed it down with a scotch brite rolock pad. I am absolutely blown away by the differences in how this bike now feels and acts. Just lowering my seat position was an absolutely game changing improvement. I was limited by the semi hunched over position the stock seat left me in to about 100 miles or so before my back was just done. In the new position I feel comfortable taking this bike cross country. With a 6" push on the controls to stretch my legs out I could live on it lol! She is even yelling for forward controls lol. I have a bunch of square and round bar stock laying around... and she did mention something about "bones" lol... I might have to fire up the forge and pound something out... Also... like maybe a p.s. kinda thing... If you found yourself in the situation where you could get your hands on a 1996 LS650 with 20k on the clock or so... been sitting in a barn for a decade or so... no inspection covers on the valve cover but everything looks to be there... no title... Might could get it for like 50-100$ Is it possible to get a title for something like that in Texas without like offering up your first born for ransom or something back-woodsy? :P |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by justin_o_guy2 on 11/29/17 at 09:37:01 Just walk in the local DPS office and ask them where to go. They helped me get a title. Took about no time. |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by Christof13T on 11/29/17 at 11:23:16 I may jump on it for the right $. I just filled up the tank from the 50 miles clocked on it yesterday and it took .94 gal. That puts it at a preliminary efficiency of 53.19 miles per gallon at an average of 47mph simulated city traffic. |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by batman on 12/01/17 at 19:30:44 Don't blame the bike ,doing 75 on a highway ,getting on it hard enough that you couldn't keep up on a YZF600r(how many times?) is not really the way to brake in a new and even higher compression piston, not until you've babied it at least 500miles ,should you even attempt WOT or speeds much higher than 50ish. Speeds should be changed often and held steady for only brief periods of time. I'd hope that the damage to the piston ,cylinder and rings is light and might be repaired easily .good luck. |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by batman on 12/01/17 at 21:43:41 Just for fun, what octane gas and what oil were you running at the time the bike messed up? |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by Dave on 12/02/17 at 05:16:19 When I put in my Wiseco....the next 500 miles were at less than half throttle, and I never got over 50 or 60 mph. It is really important that you allow the new piston and bored cylinder to break in properly. You are the 3rd Wiseco failure that I am aware of - and all of them occurred at elevated speeds on a fresh bore. On this next build keep the bike at low throttle and low speeds for 500 miles.....and let your wife break it in! ;) |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by batman on 12/03/17 at 15:26:44 Christof13t , If you really don't want to damage the bike again, you need to realize what you did the first time. You fried the piston. You've increased the compression to 10.5:1 ,raising combustion temp to about 4200 degrees and pressure to 1050 psi. @ close to your new peak torque about 3900rpm.Because the piston is shiny and new it has no coating of carbon (a very poor conductor of heat)to protect it, and it does form the bottom of the combustion chamber so becomes extremely hot(expands),the added friction of the rings scraping the cylinder as they wear in also adds to the heat. as the piston moves down in the power stroke the combustion gases expand and thus cool therefore the heat absorbed by the cylinder walls is less ( thus the cylinder expands less)and the piston clearance disappears the piston drags on the walls and is destroyed . At 3900 rpm (the torque peak ) your speed will be 59mph,combustion 10.5;1 and combustion temp high , speeds nearing and beyond this point should be avoided as well as high rpm in lower gears(jack rabbit starts ) at all costs , even 50 mph(or any speed) should not be held for very long times if damage is to be avoided. Around town riding may be the order of the day if the bike isn't idled to long. |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by smokin_blue on 12/03/17 at 16:42:29 1F342E352F28333A6D6F085C0 wrote:
Back when I worked in the Suzuki shop we always used muratic acid. |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by Dave on 12/04/17 at 05:15:51 May I suggest ------- Keep it Simple? With Bore Tech no longer being an entity.....the 94mm Wiseco option is now so much more appealing. It fits the stock jug with nothing more than a light honing to allow the the rings to seat. The 94mm Wiseco still makes a good bump in power as a result of the increase in compression. Fooling around with exotic metals most likely isn't going to get you anywhere....cast iron is a really good material for cylinders - they have been using it succesfully for 150 years or more! |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by LANCER on 12/04/17 at 18:43:19 764D4057464A51574C444956250 wrote:
Bore Tech no longer an entity ? ? [ch128563] |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by Dave on 12/04/17 at 19:25:56 As of December 1st - Bill is no longer taking on any new work. |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by batman on 12/04/17 at 22:46:38 Orville and Wilbur weren't using their feet to transport themselves, they owned a bicycle shop! ;D |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by Dave on 12/05/17 at 05:15:49 Using some exotic metal for a cylinder creates a lot of unknowns - and I only know enough about the issues to worry. The metal needs to have very good heat transfer properties - as the heat in the piston must be carried away by the contact area between the piston skirt and cylinder wall. The stock piston has a lot of contact area..the Wiseco has far less contact area as it is somewhat of a slipper piston design. The expansion rates of the exotic metal may be entirely different - and the clearance may need to be different than it would be for the stock cast iron liner. The hardness of the exotic metal may not be compatible with the rings......they may not seat properly and/or they may wear excessively....or even create metal transfer issues. Hopefully you could find somebody else that has used an alternate cylinder liner/sleeve and you won't be the pioneer in this area. Youzguyz was able to go more than 150,000 miles with a stock piston and cylinder - and during the rebuild he discovered that only the rings needed replacement, as the piston and cylinder were still in spec. I don't really see how you can improve on that......as it has proven to be extremely durable and reliable. |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by batman on 12/05/17 at 10:16:32 Dave has a point ,it seems the Rockwell hardness of Inconel runs around 30-40 ,gray iron (cast iron that can be bored) is 220 or a bit less, Inconel can only withstand temps of about 2000 degrees F , ignition temps in in gas engines run between 3000-5000 depending on combustion ratios . I'm not sure Inconel would be all that suitable as a cylinder liner.Being 50 -55% nickel ,I don't believe it would transfer heat as well as cast iron, and it's resistance to abrasion may not allow the piston rings to seat . |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by Christof13T on 12/06/17 at 02:13:13 I have deleted to retract all assumed references I have made to the cause of this failure. Pending the conclusion of further analysis, to protect the integrity of all parties involved; I will make no further comments on the matter. |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by Ruttly on 12/06/17 at 06:17:34 Oh come on ! What did Bill tell you ? |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by Christof13T on 12/06/17 at 07:15:43 07202121392C550 wrote:
Lol! The suspense just eating at you? I will fully update once all data voids have been filled and a resolution is reached. |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by Ruttly on 12/06/17 at 10:12:17 Deal ! |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by Christof13T on 12/14/17 at 05:06:43 Ok.... We are all Human. Inevitably at some point, we are all bound for making mistakes. Perfection is a figment. I made a mistake when I disregarded the red flags raised by ring gaps being over Wiseco call out for my application. For any application really... I should have checked the bore before assembling, but didn't... My mistake was to trust. Bill's was as well. After the length of time he has spent in his amazing career of keeping performance motorcycles on the street and track... He trusts his cuts. It is an easy trap to fall into. I have done it... My better half has done it (She is also a machinist)... After cutting 100,000 of the exact same part, out of the exact same material - One can learn to tell the difference between a nominal part off the machine... and a part with measurements getting close to tolerance threshold by the sound the cutter makes while its chipping away material. The problem is that you can not always count on the conditions to repeat part after part after part. Temperature variations, developing machine problems, material variations between heat numbers... many many MANY factors contribute to repeatability. Now take into account all the differences in material used to make cylinders from the inception of the engine driven bike. It is almost impossible to know how any given cylinder is going to machine until you actually start cutting metal. It could cut dreamy like biscuit wheels on the gravy train until you get to the finish pass... then deflect, or dig in... Weird stuff just happens. The only explanation I can come up with is that Bill trusted his cuts, needed to make one final pass... forgot to devide by 2, ran the full depth cut which blew it out by double. Expecting the cut to have taken what he intended it to, didn't measure? The other issue was likely from how it was set up in the machine. There is taper in the bore. smaller I.D. at the top, widest at the bottom. The top is under the target number for a 97mm bore. the bottom is wide. If he measured from only one side in the machine, and it has developed taper... or something on the face of the fixture set the bore out of square... You just wouldn't see it unless you ran a dial bore indicator all the way through the bore. So there is a pretty good hypothesis of why this happened. The how part is again as simple as... We are all Human. Bill is an absolute stand up guy. I do not want in any way for what happened with my cylinder to reflect negatively on the amazing career this man has lived. He did not hesitate to take full responsibility for ensuring that I will get a good cylinder mated to another new piston. He is replacing my sleeve, re-boring to 95mm this time, coating and honing at no charge. I was finally able to get the replacement piston for the replacement piston ordered a couple days ago. I have just been too busy or tired from being busy to get on here and update. I was just blessed with the position of general foreman and sales consultant for a rapidly blossoming construction company specializing in disaster recovery. I have been on my Thundercat for at least 300 miles per day all week. We are working in Rockport, Tx picking up the pieces scattered and shattered by Hurricane Harvey. You just wouldn't believe the devastation that storm unleashed on our beautiful coast. I feel very honored to be in the position to do something to help. As soon as the new piston arrives, it is going in a box with the cylinder and being sent to Bill. I have no doubt that this time there will be absolutely no issues. I will update again when I get it sent off. |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by batman on 12/14/17 at 09:07:49 Bill ,is standup guy! There are still a few around thank God!years ago I bought a SS BK 50 cal. black powder rifle ,first hunt I was climbing down from a stand (to get my deer)and dropped it cracking the stock when it struck a rock ,called BK and the owner answered ,told him it was my fault , I needed a new one,to hunt the late season a few weeks later, could he send it COD .He took my info and a week later it arrived UPS ,he'd sent the stock with all it's fittings all I needed to do was drop in the barrel and attach my sling , the cost was zero !He'd even covered the UPS shipping. |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by Christof13T on 12/14/17 at 20:10:40 That's what we used to call customer service. Had similar pleasant exchanges with RCBS over a few items... one of them being an old Uniflow powder measure that had been terribly neglected and had horribly oxidized. They sent me a brand new one free of charge and they paid shipping. Same with decapping pins. Lee customer service is just as pleasant. Had a problem with a loadmaster refusing to index after a thorough cleaning... I fought with it for days until giving up and calling them up. They emailed me a shipping label... went through the press... and sent it back all on their dime. It was like a brand new press again. It came with a note... it read simply... "Clean press, but you don't have to tighten the shellplate so tight!" lol. I blew a priming arm in half on the same press. A primer got out of whack somewhere and *Kablooey*! They sent me a brand new one, no charge. Values extend past the dollar still in some companies. |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by Christof13T on 12/19/17 at 05:28:56 The new piston has arrived! This one even came with a fancy carrying bag for the piston lol. The box it came in also has a nice, clearly labeled bore clearance printed on the i.d. sticker. .0025" is the stated bore clearance as per Wiseco. Hopefully I will have time to get them boxed up and sent to Bill this week. Work has been nuts! |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by Ruttly on 12/19/17 at 10:12:48 Don't forget to check your piston ring end gaps , take your time. Glad you got it all sorted out ! |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by batman on 12/20/17 at 16:34:33 "Service life of the engine depends greatly on carful and SENSIBLE break-in! No more than 1/3 throttle, and speeds should be varied as much as possible for the first 500 miles. prolonged steady running, at one speed no matter how moderate, and hard accelerations are to be avoided! The next 500miles, more throttle can be used ,BUT full throttle should be avoided ! At 1000 to 1500 miles full throttle should be limited to short bursts only !" |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by justin_o_guy2 on 12/20/17 at 22:48:57 Killjoy... |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by batman on 12/21/17 at 07:13:02 I'm only a Killjoy if his "joy" is rebuilding the top end a third time but with the higher compression piston , comes higher temperature and friction , making the break-in guide lines even more important. |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by justin_o_guy2 on 12/21/17 at 08:13:39 You mean to tell me that there are consequences for irresponsible behavior? |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by Christof13T on 12/22/17 at 06:34:03 416667677F6A130 wrote:
I will fully measure the cylinder before assembling this time. Anything found outside of wiseco's specs will halt the process. Batz: Browbeat all you want... An oversized cylinder is an oversized cylinder. It was never going to get a good seat. Worn out before it was ever put together and fired up. If you want to caution someone about repeating mistakes... make it about MY mistake of not measuring the bore like I knew I should have. |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by Ruttly on 12/22/17 at 12:29:58 The reason I said to check end gaps is it's the easiest way to see if it was over or under bored and can be checked with feeler gauge no fancy bore gauges needed. |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by batman on 12/22/17 at 12:53:45 I didn't intend to "browbeat" ,but it was you who told about running the bike at 75mph to get it inspected, and about your lady friend running away from you when you followed her on your bike ,with less than 200 miles on it , neither of these actions fall within the break-in guidelines ,and I wished to caution you , in hopes that you might see that being a bit more aware of the need to be kinder to your bike, you would have a long and happy future together . Good Luck! |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by MadMike on 12/25/17 at 10:17:27 7259435842455E57000265310 wrote:
Good look ya got going on there Christof13, Love that seat! You did a fine, clean looking fender from the stock unit. Nice work. Where did you mount the rectafier/regulator |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by MadMike on 12/25/17 at 12:28:45 Oh now after CLOSER observation I see it on the fender, it's ok for it to be exposed like that? |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by Christof13T on 12/26/17 at 12:38:14 0D21240D292B25400 wrote:
Yeah its a sealed box. The only real point of potential water intrustion would be the connectors. She sleeps in the garage and will primarily be ridden in nice weather. If it ever becomes an issue I will move it somewhere less convenient... but more protected lol. The seat is a 50$ kit from fleabay. I made and welded gussets onto the frame for the seat springs to mount and only had to add a slotted hole to the stock seat holder bracket doo dad to mount it up front. The lines just fell perfectly into place. |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by Christof13T on 12/26/17 at 12:42:53 I dropped off the cylinder and replacement replacement piston with FedEx this morning for their trip back to Bill. They estimated Bill should have them by Friday. I sent them USPS the first time and it was a little over 12$ cheaper to use FedEx including an extra 100$ worth of insurance. Little wins lol. |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by batman on 12/27/17 at 14:30:10 I moved my rectifier to the area used for the tool kit ,years back .I drilled holes in the sides of the chrome cover to allow cooling air ,I don't even think it required lengthening any wires ,just a tool pouch on the front forks. You could also drop the rear of the fender down a couple of inches by using longer bolts in the top two with spacers in between the fender and frame ,this might allow you room for a small rack between the taillight and seat, as you said you might sometimes want to carry a set of bags. |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by Christof13T on 12/28/17 at 13:41:39 4340554C404F1519210 wrote:
I'm really leaning toward a pair of 20mm ammo cans for cargo space. Need enough space for her to carry her skates, helmet, pads, etc on trips to the skate parks. |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by batman on 12/30/17 at 00:15:04 What no surfboard? no kitchen sink? those ammo boxes are way to big and your fender way to small, I'm thinking she better drive the car if she's going to skate. |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by Christof13T on 12/31/17 at 07:42:22 20's will fit just fine. I just had a Lincoln SA 200 fall in my lap... I'll make `em fit! I will be modifying the cans a bit also... so there's that... "To big" is a matter of opinion. I reject yours. I know of a fellow who completely re-fabbed the fairings on his YZF600R out of nothing but used license plates. I think that may have happened because someone piped up and said "you can't do that" lol. I intended to hang 20mm cans on either side from the beginning of this project. Fabbing up a pair of supports for the cans is gravy. The fender is stout enough to support my weight... I dont think 2- 20lb (full) boxes are going to stress much. Upon completion the fender will be mostly obscured by a roll bag. Add some forward controls and a backrest and she is ready for some cross country touring. The boxes will be attached to their mounts by a locking quick release. I will build it all myself and take ample photos along the way to post here. They will be served cold alongside ample amounts of crow. |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by batman on 12/31/17 at 09:52:28 I didn't say it couldn't be done ,I just think because of their size they might not look right especially with the bobbed fender, and might be hard to fit being straight sided and with the shocks kind of in the way, however if you weld you could mod the boxes into slant bags and mount them closer to the fender, or whatever you desire. I'm interested in seeing what you end up with. yes post pic's. ( crow needs to be cooked -well done :) ) |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by Christof13T on 01/03/18 at 16:32:02 Bill received the package on Friday and has gone over the cylinder. He has ordered a new sleeve from L.A. Sleeve with an expected delivery of about a week from today. He will put a few days into it after he gets the new sleeve and that... should be that. |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by justin_o_guy2 on 01/03/18 at 17:21:07 He sure seems to be a good guy. |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by Christof13T on 01/23/18 at 08:41:01 The cylinder and piston showed up on a FedEx van yesterday around 2pm. I went over it this time with a fine toothed comb. Everything measured out perfect. It was running again and on the road by 4:30pm. It smoked a little for about 30 seconds then cleared up to idle much quieter than it did before. No More Tick! The clearance between the piston and bore ARE CRITICAL to the longevity of a performance build on these engines. Starting out with a sloppy bore is an almost guaranteed recipe for failure, no matter how much you baby it on break in. I am confident the grimlins have been successfully hunted down and killed! Piston to bore clearance - .0025 per side Ring gaps - .0045 top , .0075 2nd. No taper or egging in bore. Perfect cross hatching. Bill did a beautiful job replacing the sleeve and perfectly mating it to the new 95mm piston. I filled it with fresh T4, primed the carb... and touched the start button. It started up and ran on the first revolution! Leary of a repeat for any reason... I'm probably over babying it lol. I put 1 mile on it yesterday around the block, and up to the gas station and back. It actually feels more peppy than with the 97mm build. Must be something to that intake and exhaust restriction as it relates to efficient use of displacement. I will take it out for about a 40 mile ride today around noonish with a camera and post the video. |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by batman on 01/23/18 at 08:57:17 Glad to here that things worked out for you ,and I wish you miles of smiles! |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by Christof13T on 01/23/18 at 21:37:30 6E6D78616D6238340C0 wrote:
Thanks... It was starting to get really depressing lol. I ran it about 50 miles today without a single hiccup. It sounds... different. The exhaust report is much sharper... snappier. and a bit louder than it was with the 97mm, and stock before all the fun started. The jetting for the 97mm is playing nice with the 95mm. No backfires at all on shutdown so far and only a couple very light power belches about midway through the rpms in 3rd slowing to the stop signs. Still babying the hell out of it but it is darn peppy! I had a float snaffu this morning that ate up about 3 bowls worth of go juice, but I'm still anxious to see what kinda efficiency I'm getting already lol. And it looks like I am going to end up with that '96 sitting in the barn. I don't think I am going to bother going through getting it titled... Will likely pull and save back the parts I want to keep for spares and sell the rest. If I do anything with the frame... It will be so drastic I will need to stamp new numbers in it anyway. And that is only if it were to be an on road toy. I will have a good bit of parts posted up for sale before too long. |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by Dave on 01/24/18 at 04:53:15 1F342E352F28333A6D6F085C0 wrote:
It might not be appropriate to compare a leaky 97mm piston/cylinder to a 95mm piston/cylinder that fits properly. I really like the 95mm in mine - but I might like the 97mm more? :-? |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by Christof13T on 01/24/18 at 06:34:56 72494453424E555348404D52210 wrote:
It might not be appropriate to compare a leaky 97mm piston/cylinder to a 95mm piston/cylinder that fits properly. I really like the 95mm in mine - but I might like the 97mm more? :-?[/quote] You have done the whole shebang on your motor tho correct ? Cam, porting, and upgraded carb? More air in and out will make a lot of difference in the usable displacement. I did have a little quirk from my dang carb this morning. Im chocking it up to the temperature being 30*f or so when I ran up to the convenience store... but with the petcock set to either on or res it wanted to puke gas out the vents with a little bit of sustained throttle. All it took was to just bring it up slightly off idle and after about 6 seconds it started puking. It did it to me yesterday morning too but all it took was to drop the bowl.. flip the float up and down a few times and reinstall bowl. I guess I need a new needle and seat... Or I could clean up the spare carb I picked up off the '96 in the barn yesterday lol. ;D |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by batman on 01/24/18 at 09:33:38 Maybe there's something stuck in the filter screen above the float valve seat, or the fuel may be leaking by the body of the valve seat do to damage/ old age of the O-ring seal., other than that you maybe right the tip of the valve may well be have a grove in it. |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by Christof13T on 01/24/18 at 09:46:25 I am about to go pull it apart again and have a peek. I started digging into the spare carb and just stopped as soon as I pulled the bowl. It is now soaking in handi-strip lol. Dunno if the needle will be salvageable... It's stuck in the port pretty solid. Keeping my fingers crossed though lol. Amazing enough... the slide, butterfly, and choke are all nice and free. |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by Christof13T on 01/24/18 at 14:51:14 So the problem was multi faceted. The very tip of the needle was rounded off vs. the sharp point on the one I pulled out of the other carb, and there was a prominent groove where it sat against the seat. The oring between the body and its port was in fact done for. The seat in the body had some crusty varnish. The little screens on both carbs were just fine. The one out of the 96 was a metal screen, the one out of the 06 looks like some kind of plastic. I put the metal one on and reinstalled. The captive plate that holds the body in its port was completely missing from my carb! I robbed the one off the other carb, cleaned it up... and installed it. The problem persists, but much less intensely. If I place the petcock on reserve... It does not puke. Only while in the on position. Could the diaphragm in the petcock be making to much pressure in the on position? |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by verslagen1 on 01/24/18 at 15:08:39 1D362C372D2A31386F6D0A5E0 wrote:
The diaphragm in the petcock does not make pressure. It only pulls back the valve to let gas flow. In that regard, on and res are exactly the same. Prime however, has a little finger that pushes back the valve. Are you sure you have it in "on" vs. prime? In all cases, the float valve should be able to stop the flow when the bowl is full. double check yourself, read carb specs in the tech section to confirm you got it right. |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by Christof13T on 01/24/18 at 15:44:17 absolutely sure about the petcock position. It does NOT puke fuel while running under the same conditions while in prime. It only does it in the on position. (straight down) With very light application of pressure to the float to seal the valve makes it pretty much impossible for me to blow air through the fuel inlet. I have adjusted the tang twice now to try to get it to apply more pressure/set the float level a bit lower... to no avail. |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by verslagen1 on 01/24/18 at 19:25:09 dam vacuum activated petcock do yourself a favor... get a raptorcock. |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by Christof13T on 01/24/18 at 20:56:57 Yeah I'm pretty much at the same conclusion. It gave me crap at every stop sign on the way to the convenience store and back earlier. The body has a new oring and made a good seal when I put it all back together. The needle I robbed out of the other carb looked brand spanking new. Not a single visible flaw on the rubber seal tip. The bore and seat were free of any debris, pitting, scratches, etc... I'll get one ordered as soon as funds allow. Stuff kind of sucks right now. |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by GT61 TURBO ZX14 on 01/25/18 at 01:43:54 4B584F4E515C5A58530C3D0 wrote:
Where can I get one Dave |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by Dave on 01/25/18 at 03:32:36 6A46554C70604652534F4E4255270 wrote:
You can get one at your local Yamaha dealer - it is part #5LP-24500-01-00 You can also get them on eBay - but there are a lot of Chinese copies. If you don't see the part number, the white box, and the words genuine Yamaha - keep looking. https://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-YAMAHA-RAPTOR-660-YFM-660R-OEM-FUEL-VALVE-SHUTOFF-PETCOCK-5LP-24500-01-00/273036522513?epid=1023314198&hash=item3f923eb411:g:DLkAAOSwmfhX4r09&vxp=mtr |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by GT61 TURBO ZX14 on 01/25/18 at 03:36:11 62595443525E454358505D42310 wrote:
You can get one at your local Yamaha dealer - it is part #5LP-24500-01-00 You can also get them on eBay - but there are a lot of Chinese copies. If you don't see the part number, the white box, and the words genuine Yamaha - keep looking. https://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-YAMAHA-RAPTOR-660-YFM-660R-OEM-FUEL-VALVE-SHUTOFF-PETCOCK-5LP-24500-01-00/273036522513?epid=1023314198&hash=item3f923eb411:g:DLkAAOSwmfhX4r09&vxp=mtr [/quote] Just ordered it thanks |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by Christof13T on 01/25/18 at 21:09:22 So my puking vent tube issue seems to clear up with a rise in ambient temperature. Today it did not give me any problems. I ran it in the on position until it ran out of gas and I had to switch it to res. It took about 2 seconds or so to pick back up once I switched it. Was almost to the house already so I will fill it up in the morning on my way to where I gotta go and get a rough guestimate of efficiency. Have no idea how much of it was just blown out the vents, and I neglected to capture the 6 or 7 bowls full of fuel that were either flushed, or dumped when I pulled the bowl so many dang times. I guess the bike, like me... just disagrees with the cold? lol I did add an accessory this evening that made a world of difference for riding in the cold... It now has a windshield. Will get a pic posted of it tomorrow morning after the bags I picked up are installed. It feels so good to have it back on the road. It's just such a fun little bike! I'm falling in love with it all over again. |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by Christof13T on 01/26/18 at 10:16:57 Accessorized! The windscreen made the crazy cold ride last night much more comfortable. The bags hold pretty much everything I need to handle just about any issue that might pop up save for something catastrophic. About to take a 150 mile or so round trip on it to go survey a property. I plan to get a solid efficiency calculation on this trip. Starting with a full tank, I'll fill back up on the way back to Victoria. Hoping it maintains that 50+ mpg I was seeing before the 2nd failure. I will be on the highway in 75-80mph traffic... but they will just have to go around me lol. And my dang phone refuses to let me upload a picture. I will try to post it from the laptop when I get home. |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by Christof13T on 01/26/18 at 17:35:58 Trying again with the picture... |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by GT61 TURBO ZX14 on 01/26/18 at 17:49:49 7C574D564C4B50590E0C6B3F0 wrote:
Why is it out side |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by Christof13T on 01/26/18 at 19:33:10 64485B427E6E485C5D41404C5B290 wrote:
Why is it out side [/quote] Because my shop is full of other bikes, 3 engines (7.3 powerstroke, a Mercedes slk 230 suped 4 banger, Y-Block 4.6 v8 fwd that I'm converting to run rwd for the town car) half a Town Car... and barely enough room left for my tools and power toys. My Savage lives outside like the beast it is. Inside the garage is my 03 Yamaha YZF600R Thundercat, 03 GSX-R600, and my partner's (beekeeping business partner) early 80's Rebel 450. About to have to make room to start chopping on a `96 LS650 that will likely end up a trike, and a mid 90's V-Star hardtail that is getting gutted and mostly parted out. I just wanted the motor to stick on my Tomerlain Crossfire buggy. I'm not too worried about it being messed with. People around here know I shoot first.. and don't bother with the questions. My place is under guard 24/7 and under random dog run. Beekeeping is expensive. Estimate every active hive at 1k$ and up depending on the bees temperament and how well they produce. We are currently over 150 active hives. There has been a recent rash in stupid ass kids destroying apiaries. We absolutely can not afford to have that happen here. Our bees pollinate the entire county, and a good portion of the surrounding counties. That's why my Savage is outside. |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by GT61 TURBO ZX14 on 01/26/18 at 22:23:04 Yup |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by justin_o_guy2 on 01/27/18 at 05:00:27 Saw a story a week or so ago about two young guys flipping fifty hives. It was cold and about fifty thousand bees died. Such needless, wanton destruction, Without Go Fund Me the young couple would have been bankrupt. |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by GT61 TURBO ZX14 on 01/27/18 at 05:20:11 Not good at all |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by Christof13T on 01/27/18 at 07:14:17 322D2B2C31360737073F2D216A580 wrote:
That was closer to half a million bees. Not only did the stupid kids knock the hives over... they doused them with diesel fuel. The punishment should fit the crime... I say make the lil A-holes work that bee yard unprotected. Several beekeepers around the country have stepped up to help the couple out and donated packages of bees to their apiary. Fortunately the hives were not set on fire, so with a very thorough cleaning most of the hives may be reusable. Apiary theft is also becoming somewhat of a problem. Less than 200 miles from me (Just north of Angleton, Tx) a beekeeper had 111 hives STOLEN! Who could pull that off except for another beek? Many of us down here are flat out disgusted one from our own niche community would stoop to that level. My partner and I are working on a marking system that is much more difficult to obfuscate to identify apiary equipment. The go to method for the past 50+ years has been to spray paint over a stencil. We are looking to incorporate permanently affixed, stamped metal I.D. tags and possibly rf id. Beekeeping is already expensive enough without this crap going on. Somewhat on the same note... Just as we projected... We do not have enough bees in the country for the pollination events this year. The floods in the almond fields last year did one heck of a number on colony numbers. What are we going to do for pollination required food production? How many farmers are about to go bankrupt because their yield wont even pay for the diesel it cost to plant, maintain, and harvest? We all but refuse to get into the commercial pollination game for that exact reason. Bees did not evolve to survive, definitely not thrive- on a single resource environment. On another note... A little less depressing one... The 96 Savage is coming home today, along with the V-Star and a midget style dirt track buggy lol. The dirt track buggy might end up with the motor from the v-star... I'm leaning away from the little crossfire buggy. I prefer the heavier frame of the midget. |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by justin_o_guy2 on 01/27/18 at 07:38:11 beekeeper had 111 hives STOLEN! Who could That's a big flatbed load. And I can't imagine someone who doesn't handle bees doing that, either. When I was roughnecking in southwest Texas close to the Rio Grande we saw trucks hauling hives often. |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by Christof13T on 01/27/18 at 08:09:47 312E282F32350434043C2E22695B0 wrote:
It had to be another beek. And that was just the largest theft in the area recently. Another fellow not too far away also had like 20-30 hives stolen around the same time. Yes, it would have required a flatbed tractor trailer or they got really bold and made multiple trips. Most of our bees are straight up feral(Wild bred, African genetics). We like the absolute meanest bees we can get. They get to know us and after a couple months of working with them pretty much just let us do what we need to do. Strangers are not so fortunate. Bees can and do actually recognize human faces and distinguish differences between individual people. They get to know and trust keepers. So in that regard, our bees secure themselves for the most part. I almost feel for the poor fool who tries to steal or cause harm in our bee yards. We are experimenting with methods of bee propagation and maintenance that induce exponentially less stress on the colonies come harvest time... But for most of the year that leaves the hives mostly packed full of resources. Bees get aggressive, by orders of magnitude... as they start running out of room to pack in resources. The general mode of the colony shifts from foraging to defense. This is where we like our bees to be. Ready to kill at a moments notice to protect the colony. It does make for a bit more difficult time to manage them... but this method circumvents the need to cram antibiotics, pesticides, and processed sugars into our apiaries. We practice what has been dubbed "Neo Darwinian" beekeeping. The strongest colonies survive and thrive, while weaker genetics do not. This method is producing bees that flat out do not require pesticide intervention to handle small hive beetles, verroa, wax moths, raccoons, opossum, skunks, etc... (yes pesticides help deter mammal pests in most commercial beekeeping operations) |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by verslagen1 on 01/27/18 at 08:13:32 69425843595E454C1B197E2A0 wrote:
I've been responsible for incorporating 3D matrix ID tags on our companys parts to certain customers who request it. The marks can be read by bar code readers for a code that give full info in a data base. Search Mil-std-130 and UID if you want more info. You don't have to be that intricate. A simple "dice" pattern would enough unless you wanted to provide the pattern to the community for use. The problem is any pattern that's easy to read might be able to remove like the brands on cattle of old. I assume your hives are wood. You could make a metal template with holes in various locations and drill each pattern. Then fill with colored epoxy. |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by justin_o_guy2 on 01/27/18 at 10:50:51 Drill a hole, slip a chip in, epoxy, paint..? Enough people investing could make it affordable.. If they are insured, then an aantitheft device might get a discount. |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by norm92de on 01/27/18 at 12:05:11 You know what Einstein said. Without the bees the human race would go extinct! |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by GT61 TURBO ZX14 on 01/27/18 at 13:14:07 71706D72262D7B7A1F0 wrote:
Yup so true |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by Christof13T on 01/28/18 at 07:29:01 20213C23777C2A2B4E0 wrote:
Not just us that would be in trouble... We would go extinct in a matter of about 4 years due to starvation. Imagine the plant and animal die off event that would cause our complete failure as a species... Somewhat back on point... The deal on the 96, the vstar, and midget buggy fell through... My ride to Refugio and back was fabulous. Even with traffic honking at me lol. putt putt putt without missing a beat. The windshield makes for an infinitely more comfortable ride in the cold and rain! I have seen lots of guys complain about getting wet with the front fender removed... I did not? Why? lol |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by batman on 01/28/18 at 12:59:46 You didn't get wet because your windscreen was acting as the fender. |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by Christof13T on 01/29/18 at 05:06:37 5457425B5758020E360 wrote:
I have not noticed that the front tire is slinging into the windshield really at all... I expected the sling effect to come mostly from the underside, hit the front of the motor, then go around and splatter on my legs... but in some pretty decent downpour I stayed mostly dry. I am now 230 miles into break in and so far sooooo goood! It is much more snappy than it has ever been. No noticeable oil consumption. No smoke. Light richness during warmup then it clears like its supposed to. I can feel it get a little bit "stronger" for lack of a better word the farther along I get into break in. Correlating with this "feel", Each time I go to start it, the starter has to grunt a little harder to get it rotating. On this old battery, I completely expected this to happen lol. Thoughts of finishing out this project with a name and some fancy paint on the tank are starting to form... General ideas will be revolving around the displacement, The Debil, Bees, Venom, Stinging lol. Kinda thinking something like a "Killer Bee" on each side of the tank pointing her mean a$$ forward... I'll have to play with it in photoshop and see what I can tolerate looking at lol. I wonder if it is normal though... I kinda expected some significant noise increase from the intake with that little pancake on it... But is it supposed to be louder than the exhaust lol? |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by Dave on 01/29/18 at 05:49:41 I rode one summer without a front fender on my Cafe' - as I had run out of winter work weather and was into warm riding weather before I got the fender built. On one ride down in NC we got caught in the rain, and as we rode through an area where they had been doing road work - I got a thin brown stripe down the center of my face shield. The front tire was throwing up muddy water forward from the top of the tire! Your bike will be doing this too - you may not notice this while riding in the rain - but you will sure notice it when you ride on a wet road and see the water that the front tire will throw up and forward. The tires throw a "rooster tail" of water when you ride in the rain. At night you will also be able to see small stones that the front tire throws up into the headlight beam. I currently have a very small front fender on my Cafe' bike and a tiny seat with no rear fender, and in the rain I get completely saturated. The front tire throws water forward off the top of the tire, and that water then hits my upper torso and face. The front tire also splits the water and throws a stream into each shoe when by feet are on the rear set pegs. The rear wheel throws a roostertail of water on my back, neck and helmet. It is impossible to stay dry while riding in the rain....or even when riding on roads made wet by passing storms or groundwater seeping across the road. The Cafe' bike is definitely not an all weather bike! |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by Christof13T on 01/29/18 at 06:34:11 I must have got my math right on my fender chop... for my weight anyway. It catches the slung water so my jacket was pretty dry on the back. The windshield must be catching the centered stripe of sling from the front tire. I am pretty happy with the setup so far. I LOVE how light it is! And still stable enough in winds to keep on keepin on comfortably. It is every bit as capable in the weather as my YZF with all its trigged out aero fanciness. I find myself getting nods and waves from a whole lot more Hardley guys on the Savage than I do on the YZF lol. The looks of confusion from a few obvious gazers have been entertaining... Like you could almost see the gears clicking trying to understand "Why does that sportster only have one cylinder?" kinda looks lol. Mechanically, about a I have left now is a valve check at the 500 mile oil change, take a peek at the sparky... and then cross my fingers and put the chrome covers back on. I hit my the rotor with a twisted wire cup brush on an angle grinder to give it a fresh scuff yesterday and cured that infernal squealy screech. Brakes feel freaking great now! 230 + 183 mile seat review... I Love It! It is comfortable, just the right position... not to soft, not to firm... Freaking Goldylocks. The springs woth the stock suspension feel like air ride. Minimal vibration transference from the engine... Glassy smooth. I have a set of Shenko something or others waiting for me to pick up at the bike shop, just need to get time to go pick them up. My rear is just about to the end of its life and the front is starting to show some dry rot. I always seem to be working when they are open lol. It kinda sucks that the other deal on the 96 fell through... Didn't really care about the other bike and midget cart, but dang it would have been nice to have a parts bike available lol. I did however close the deal on the 03 GSX-R600 sitting in my garage. I'm trading a fellow my Tomerlain Crossfire 150 buggy for it straight up. The bike runs and shifts through all gears. It comes with a clear title. It needs a few minor odds and ends. pegs, levers, fork seals and oil change... brake reservoir and various hoses... paint... tires and a chain for sure. I will probably replace the banged up tank. Overall a good running motor and smooth trans so thats at least a start. I think I will come out ahead for what it needs and the time it will take to do it. The better half is itching to get on a sportbike now that she has become more confident on the Savage. I think I will start her out o the YZF vs this fuel injected monster though lol. |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by Christof13T on 01/30/18 at 06:46:46 So this just happened. .. That compression ain't no joke lol. Probably going to have to go with a manual decomp... |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by GT61 TURBO ZX14 on 01/30/18 at 07:03:07 614A504B51564D44131176220 wrote:
What do you gto done to it plus them battery's sick lol |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by Dave on 01/30/18 at 07:05:09 YIKES! I have a Wiseco and a manual decompression - but I seldom have to use it. Maybe once in 100 starts does the engine fail to go over the compression stroke. If you hit the starter button and the engine is on the compression stroke, the starter cannot push the engine over TDC. You should let go of the starter button immediately - then click the bike in gear and bump it forward until the piston goes over TDC. (This can be difficult and potentially dangerous if you stall the bike in traffic). The manual decompression levers that require you to take your hand off the clutch lever to run them are not much better/safer in traffic - I built my manual decompression using a BMX brake lever that allows you to pull the decompression with your index finger while holding in the clutch lever with your other fingers. I went to the local bicycle store and bought a left brake lever for a BMX bike. (My bars on the Cafe' bike are 7/8" - but I have made a few of these that had the BMX lever bored out to 1" to fit the Savage bars). I made a longer decompression lever that would match the distance between the pivot point and cable on the lever. I had to make a new mount that would put the cable in line with the new lever. The new parts are painted black. http://i40.tinypic.com/et5g87.jpg I then mounted them on the engine and I use a bicycle brake cable that I cut to length and soldered on a proper end fitting. http://i43.tinypic.com/11m6sjl.jpg I then mounted the new bicycle brake lever on my clip ons. I had to angle the lever up a bit - so it did not hit the passing light switch when I pulled it in. http://i39.tinypic.com/2i8cepk.jpg http://i42.tinypic.com/2vbwnj7.jpg I have enough leverage to pull the exhaust valves open with my index finger while my other fingers can hold the clutch lever. |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by GT61 TURBO ZX14 on 01/30/18 at 07:13:11 Cool |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by GT61 TURBO ZX14 on 01/30/18 at 07:13:53 I am putting this on my bike |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by Gary_in_NJ on 01/30/18 at 08:29:41 I have Dave's kit on my bike. It gets used maybe once a year, but worth it when its needed. Now that I've seen what can happen, I'm very happy to have it. |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by snels516 on 01/30/18 at 09:05:11 Gary you say one of Dave’s kits. Does he sell actual kits or did you just borrow his idea? |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by Dave on 01/30/18 at 09:10:50 5D404B425D1B1F182E0 wrote:
He used to.......I built about 6 kits and sold them all a couple years ago. It was a lot of work, and I am not sure if I want to do it again. I need to build 8-10 kits to make all the parts purchases worthwhile. |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by Christof13T on 01/30/18 at 09:14:29 I was plotting pretty much the same thing you did Dave lol. I have a bunch of old mountain bikes and whatnot laying around that I can pick and choose from for parts. I had not tried to push bump it in that condition for fear of breaking something... I will not hesitate in the future. The thing literally burnt before I realized it was getting hot! What Dave says is no joke. LET IT GO lol. I should have a fresh batt on it today. Other than this it has really given me no issues. Still very pleased with the overall improvements and comfort. |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by Dave on 01/30/18 at 09:16:38 That extra lever sure does confuse a lot of folks....they have no idea what it does! |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by Christof13T on 02/02/18 at 15:59:07 So it has been a few days and have started the bike up every morning with no starter hang up issues. I have not replaced that battery yet. It checked out good electrically and after a little drill and tap action into the center of the + post I was back in business. After a series of unfortunate events, I am pretty much tapped out for cash, so it is what it is. It is still giving me guff pretty much every time I go to warm it up with the dang carb vent puke action going on. The cure seems to be switch it to prime until it arms up a little then switch it back to on and its fine... Really screwing with my efficiency calculations... not knowing how much fuel is getting dumped on the ground makes trusting the numbers difficult. Last fillup this morning put it at 34.75mpg running mostly 55mph on the highway. Small short blurps around traffic here and there up to around 60mph... but still very much babying it. I may look at changing up my air intake in the very near future. I'm contemplating a t fitting and adding another pancake filter with the thought that it may quiet down a little spread across 2 filters? Might have the complete opposite effect lol. While wearing my full face, I get this freaky matrixy echo when I let off the throttle after a steady hold... It's difficult to describe. A minor annoyance if it cant be cured... Earplugs are cheap lol. |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by snels516 on 02/02/18 at 16:12:16 If you decide to let me know. End of my derailment. 112A2730212D36302B232E31420 wrote:
He used to.......I built about 6 kits and sold them all a couple years ago. It was a lot of work, and I am not sure if I want to do it again. I need to build 8-10 kits to make all the parts purchases worthwhile.[/quote] |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by Christof13T on 02/02/18 at 17:12:51 I can build you a kit if you aren't too picky about the particulars of the lever. I have several lying around... None are all polished aluminum... some are aluminum lever with black plastic mounts and others are all black plastic. If you furnish the financial requirements to purchase the parts of your choosing, I will gladly allocate and assemble a kit to order for a minimal compensatory sum. |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by snels516 on 02/04/18 at 10:18:57 It would be the decomp lever itself and mount that I don’t have a way of making. I suppose I could purchase a BMX bike lever easy enough. |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by Christof13T on 02/04/18 at 22:22:57 273A313827616562540 wrote:
Hmmmm... *ponders* I will be back in a machine shop this week... I may whip something up that I can make a batch for anyone interested. The break in miles are slowly racking up. I now have 367 miles on this rebuild. It's thumping right along! I have had no further starting issues, and as the ambient temps rise the carb does not puke fuel out the vents. I discovered that I can clear whatever is causing the issue while the bike is warming up by just switching over to prime, then back to on once its up to temp. Once I discovered that, it has worked 100% of the time. A Raptor is definitely in my future. |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by Christof13T on 02/07/18 at 04:16:37 Initial break in period is officially complete! I hit the 500 mile mark on the way home yesterday evening. Thus far it has exhibited no indications of any other malfunctions but the periodic fuel puking out of the vent tubes. I am absolutely certain there is still something awry with the carb. Max efficiency achieved so far has been 38mpg. The fill up 1/2 mile from the house last night calculated to 33.64mpg. This is all hwy miles avg 55-60mph. I think I might try going up one more size main jett and choke down on the mix screw. For it to stay kinda happy medium with the 160 main that is in it I have to keep the mix screw out between 3.5-4 turns, and it is still backfiring on decel and shut down. I am running Rotella t4. May try t6 this oil change and just have t4 at the ready in case the clutch doesn't like it. I have been running t6 in my yzf600r and the motor really seems to like it, but I do get clutch slippage when it is fairly cold out before the bike is fully up to temp. I can not blame that all on the oil however; the clutch on the yzf has 103k miles on it! I also run t6 in my 7.3Powerstroke. Somehow it survived being fed a steady diet of delvac1300 super + 2quarts of lucas goop every oil change for 250k miles. I have a video of her first swallow of t6 that hit the injectors and the sound difference alone is absolutely amazing. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mF0s5HxMius The injectors are still kinda noisy, but they had just shy of 400k miles on them when I shot that video. The engine now has 465k on it with a fresh set of injectors at like 415k. So I gotta believe there is a little magic of some sort in that stuff. I was and am still not too concerned with the initial break in fuel efficiency due to the willful erratic application of throttle as directed for break in. Keeping my fingers crossed the numbers start to come up with fresh oil and some carb tinkering. I will probably just go ahead and order a full carb rebuild kit, and a raptorcock here in the next week or so. Things are trying to look up in the finances department... Things have been bad. Really bad... Like... I'm running on my generator right now because the lights got shut off bad. But not to fret. Like I said, things are turning around and really looking up. I just started 2 build jobs that will get me completely back out of this hole and comfortably back in the black. I will continue to update as the stages of break in progress, and any changes or hiccups occur. |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by Dave on 02/07/18 at 04:54:42 Are you running a stock air filter? A 160 main jet is pretty darn big......a #150 is usually big enough with the stock air filter - even at sea level. If you have to turn the idle fuel screw out more than 2.5 turns to get a smooth idle - you need a bigger pilot jet. The range of pilot jets us usually between #50 - #52.5 for the stock air filter.....cone filters may need a #55. You should be choosing the pilot jet based on what the engine needs to idle well - the fuel mixture screw should be proper when the screw is around 2 turns out. If the screw can be turned all the way in and the engine still run - the pilot jet is too big. If you need to turn the screw out more than 2.5 turns - the pilot jet is too small. You need to adjust the idle speed pretty low when adjusting the idle fuel screw - the normal 1,100 rpm is too fast for the adjustment as the needle jet is beginning to add fuel at that speed......be sure to turn the idle speed back up after making the fuel screw adjustment. Fuel leaking out the vent tubes is a sure indicator that you are either having petcock or carb issues. Your scenario of needing to switch to PRI and RUN is weird......in the prime setting a little lever moves over and holds the diaphragm open - which permits both the main and reserve fuel ports to be open and provide constant fuel flow. You should be jetting for how the engine runs when the throttle is open - not for how it runs when you close the throttle. When you close the throttle the slide drops and closes off the fuel flow - and the high engine vacuum pulls a lot of air past the slide. The fuel/air mixture goes very lean, and the spark plug can not ignite the mixture in the cylinder - but the lean mixture can ignite in the hot exhaust system. If you hold the throttle open just a small amount while you decelerate you can cut down (or eliminate) the popping/backfiring when you slow down. Same thing when you shift gears - don't close the throttle completely between shifts. There is no jetting changes you can make to correct for the lean mixture scenario when decelerating - the TEV valve is supposed to help...unfortunately I don't believe it works very well with the E10 fuel and the mixture is just too lean when coasting with the throttle closed. You have to learn how to ride a Savage and use the throttle to control the noise - it is a primitive bike and needs to be ridden like one. The throttle should not be "cracked" open or "slammed" shut on this motorcycle - you should be rolling the throttle open or closed - and only closing it to the point that the noise out the exhaust allows. You don't need to open the throttle so far that the bike is accelerating as you are trying to slow down - just far enough that the noise goes away. |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by snels516 on 02/07/18 at 05:47:13 I had the same issue with fuel puking out my vent tubes when I first got my bike. I pulled the carb off and took it apart to check it out and it seemed everything was working properly. Changed to the Raptor petcock and put everything back together. It fixed the issue. I can’t say for certain it was the petcock because I did disassemble the carb at the same time but I didn’t change anything so I believe it was petcock related. |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by batman on 02/07/18 at 09:33:09 Chris, No matter what the petcock is doing , their is only one thing that controls the fuel level, and if it comes out the vents or not, and that is the float valve/float ,even if you find a hole in the petcock diaphragm and thus fuel running down the vacuum line bypassing the carb(which may cause lower mpg).You should check the valve tip for damage and pull the valve seat to check the O-ring that seals the seat to the carb body.If they are good then the only other thing it can be is the float level. Your mpg ,may be lower until you reach 1500 miles and the bike has completed full break in, but as Dave said your 160 main jet is likely to big, and if you did the spacer mod you may have lifted the needle too high ,both would cause you to run rich at cruising speeds, and lower mpg. If your running with the fuel mix screw more than 2.5 turns open your pilot is to small , this will also add to back firing when you close the throttle as the fuel mix will become even leaner. So I would suggest a larger pilot ,smaller main jet ,needle lift based on your alt. and a good hard look at the float assembly.(Raptor petcock when you get the chance) |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by Christof13T on 02/08/18 at 05:10:02 I was pretty darn critical when I went through the carb and kinda picked the best float valve ass parts between the two carbs I've got on hand. Everything that was put back onto the carb looked like it could have just been taken out of the package. It actually all does function exactly as is it supposed to as long as it is warm out when I first start it up. And the switch over to prime, still cured it when it does occur. As soon as it is up to full temp I can switch it back to on and it's fine... In the instance one were devoid of the immediate access to a slightly larger pilot... would one be disuaded from slightly reaming out an existing, on hand... but smaller o.e.m. pilot? I was kinda figuring the efficiency would improve as full break in progresses. I'm going to stick with the T4 I think. I'll have to look and see what the stock main was when I put the kit in it. |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by Dave on 02/08/18 at 05:35:09 There isn't anything wrong with drilling out a smaller pilot jet - it is just a bit hard to know exactly what you are going to end up with. The pilot jet has the most effect at idle, and the screw adjustment can account for a variation in size. You just need to end up with a pilot jet size that provides for the smoothest idle....and also results in the screw setting being out somewhere between 2-2.5 turns out. |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by LANCER on 02/08/18 at 11:40:25 Be sure when checking the pilot screw setting that the engine is completely warm; ride it a couple of miles or idle for a full 10 minutes before attempting it. (bike vertically upright to avoid oil starvation at the cam) A lot of folks try to adjust it after starting and as soon as it comes of the choke they jump right on it. That will not result in a proper setting. |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by Dave on 02/08/18 at 16:22:26 Good point Lancer...........the engine does need to be at full operating temperature. |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by batman on 02/08/18 at 17:32:24 Chris , Stock main jet is a 145, next size 147.5 then 150 ,152.5, 155,.... Your 160 jet may well be dumping to much gas,I think I'd take Dave's suggestion and start with a 150 and if that's to lean you could move up, one, or two . I believe one of Lancer's jet kits would supply 5 main and two idle jets at reasonable cost.(stock idle jet is a 52.5) |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by Christof13T on 02/08/18 at 20:25:10 I just finished up with the test ride after buttoning it back up an it is a bit better. It is still backfiring on decel but smaller sharper reports. Much lighter backfire on shutdown. Mix screw has it happy at 2.25 turns out. I will get a real good idea of any changes tomorrow. I will be taking the exact same 70ish mile ride I was taking before the weather put me off riding a couple days ago. Its supposed to be tolerable tomorrow. If the numbers go up we'll know something. If they go down... We will also know something. The oil was pretty dark that came out, but still pretty slippy. Very little glitter. I did get kinda spooked when I went to break the drain bolt loose... when I put the wrench on it and went to give it a bump and I was met with no resistance. Like, I nearly knocked myself out finding the bolt was completely loose after already setting my arm in good hard motion to loosen it. It wasn't even finger tight! It had not lost a drop. it was all dry around the drain bolt and bottom of the case. It is tight now. Batz, The factory main jet was in fact a .145. I wanted to open it up a smidge but smallest twist drill I have on hand is a .060". The main jet that is in the carb now is a .160. so that would kinda defeat the purpose... I took the smallest drill I did have and shortened the distance between the back of the pilot bore and the nose. Then I swaged it open from both ends with a very small swaging taper with the aid of my fancy airflow test device. It was kinda lippy, but it worked! I got it to flow just an ever so slightly higher rate than the one replacement 6Sigma sent with their kit. I will likely order a kit from Lancer as soon as my current situation gets situated. Once I was satisfied it was fully warmed up, I gave it a little goosing... Ermagerd... Er. Ma. Geeerd! |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by Christof13T on 02/10/18 at 05:35:21 The efficiency numbers from yesterday's fill up. .. In 65 miles, it gulped down 2.29 gallons of 93 octane. That's 28.34mpg... It is not loosing it out of the vents. It is plenty peppy, but the sharp backfires persist on decel. Also started to give it the short bursts of wot as prescribed in the break in procedure and have some concerns. It flat out falls on its face at 70mph. I think I need more air in. This pancake filter just isn't doing it. Might try putting the .145 jet back in it just to see what it does. |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by Christof13T on 02/10/18 at 09:10:16 I have put a higher flow filter on after discovering the RYCA was crushed and junked. It started to develop a new issue when I pulled out of the fueling station yesterday evening. It spit and sputtered like it was fuel starved in first gear just about the 20mph mark. Yesterday it cleared right up... Now it is persistent. I have readjusted the float. .. Swapped between every combination of jets I have on hand with absolutely the same results. Falls on its a$$ at that point in 1st, also running pretty warm... I'm about fed up with it. |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by Christof13T on 02/10/18 at 09:12:08 Stock carb airbox boot to a pvc 90* to a shifter cart cone filter. |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by Christof13T on 02/10/18 at 09:13:06 The crushed RYCA pancake filter. .. |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by Dave on 02/10/18 at 09:18:28 Until you get rid of the stock petcock, you really don’t know if the carb is or isn’t working properly. |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by Christof13T on 02/10/18 at 09:54:16 Petcock is toast. The little vacuum mechanism is shot. It wont even pass fuel in prime at this point unless I apply and sustain a pretty heft vacuum on the line...Fortunately I have a spare that seems to function like it is supposed to. Have the tank draining now so I can swap it over and see what's what... |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by Christof13T on 02/10/18 at 10:27:24 Replaced the petcock, Got it all primed up and it fired up no problem. Got it on the road and it made it to 30mph before falling on its face. It's like a run out of available fuel, or loosing spark kinda falling on its face... I might have to just take a video... Anyway... The petcock is supplying it with all the fuel it needs... It is holding prime with no air intrusion and i can see fuel flowing freely through my hose in unison with the throttle I give it. It currently has the 170 main jet in it. I pulled the sparky just to have a peek and it was ashy like lean running and hot. |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by norm92de on 02/10/18 at 10:34:37 If you have a 170 main jet and it is still lean I'd say you have an air leak somewhere. |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by batman on 02/10/18 at 11:07:14 The main jet comes into play at 3/4 throttle. if the motor is going lean at 30 mph you need to be looking at the idle jet and the needle height . If your at WOT at 30 your 170 jet is making the motor to rich and it's bogging. (what happened to trying the 145 main?) jets are only 8-10 bucks apiece ,you need to brake down and buy some. with the elevation of El Paso being 3900 ft. your running much to rich! I'd go with stock idle jet (52.5) three # 4 washers on the needle (at least) and a 150 main jet as a good starting point. 28.34 mpg? Your bike is drowning !I'd be checking your oil,it could be that the level isn't going down (not normal with rings not fully seated )because it being replaced by gas washing down the cylinder walls! the bike is back firing because of all the raw gas being pushed into the hot exhaust header. |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by Christof13T on 02/10/18 at 12:07:32 I tried the 145, then the 160, and then the 170... I don't dilly dally. I have the bowl off and back on in 3-5 minutes... The video of what it is doing is uploading to youtube now. I have just blown out all the ports with compressed air with the carb in place, then pressured up through the fuel fill line port and worked the fluat. All is beautiful there. Put the bowl back on and hit it again to potentially blow any crud out of any ports with the system closed. Petcock is operating exactly as it is supposed. I am at around 60ft above mean sea level here in victoria. .. Peak at around 120ft... |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by batman on 02/10/18 at 13:01:07 Sorry, it's Norm who's in El Paso ,my goof, but what I said about the gas in oil and raw gas in the exhaust still could be true. |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by batman on 02/10/18 at 13:11:24 Chris , we know about your main jet ,but what are you running for the idle and spacer on the jet needle? |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by Christof13T on 02/10/18 at 13:12:30 OK so I put the 160 main jet back in it and put the larger pilot back in that came with the 6sigma kit... I also went ahead and pulled the slide and cleaned everything .. pulled the slide from the spare carb and cleaned it up... Put it in and put it all back together... Doing the same crap. |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by Christof13T on 02/10/18 at 13:14:56 1 of the tiny little flat washers and the white spacer. the slide I just put in it is bone stock untouched. |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by batman on 02/10/18 at 13:18:13 Is there a cross reference between the sigma and stock jet or is it just a shot in the dark? jet needle spacer? |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by batman on 02/10/18 at 13:25:22 Chris , to raise the needle and get more fuel in the mid range ,you need to reduce the spacer, you need to either sand the spacer down, or replace it with 2 -3 washers . by adding the spacer and a washer your starving the mid range of fuel (that's why your plug shows lean) increasing your main jet won't help much if the needle isn't moving up enough. remove the spacer and put two washers(based on your 120ft elevation)in instead ,and see if your problems go away.I'd use the 145 main for now, but you'll end up using 150 ,152.5 later for WOT performance. |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by Christof13T on 02/10/18 at 13:46:45 The video finally finished uploading... This is what is was doing... https://youtu.be/L_lxU2JgeyE I pulled that cone filter off and put the pancake in its place at the end of the pvc pipe sticking out of that side of the elbow... made no other adjustment and tested it... some improvement but it still cut out around 35 in first under hard acceleration. at 45ish in 2nd. came back to the house and turned the mix screw out anoher half turn... tested it again and it now runs through all the gears under hard accel up into the 70's pretty easy... WHAT GIVES!!??? |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by Christof13T on 02/10/18 at 13:50:21 There was no cross reference offered... It was a shot in the dark... It had worked fine until yesterday lol. I will pull it back apart and confirm what is in both slides and make an adjustment. It could ave a little more in the upper rpm band. Could that cone filter have too little restriction to allow pressure to build up to work the slide? |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by batman on 02/10/18 at 14:07:07 Chris go back and read my last post, you didn't do a needle lift ,you did a needle drop ,your running super lean in the midrange! that will cause a midrange sag no matter what gear your in. |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by Christof13T on 02/10/18 at 14:25:09 4142574E424D171B230 wrote:
I read it Batzy! I read It ! I removed the white spacer and left it with just the 2 lil washers. About to go test it now... |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by Christof13T on 02/10/18 at 14:43:12 It's playing nice again. More than nice. from a rolling start in 1st it darn near just lifted the front wheel off the ground... Very slight backfiring with fully closed throttle during decel... almost none with it cracked open. So yeah... I guess I goofed when I messed with the needle the first time. Don't know how it was running so well before...? Will have to see what the efficiency numbers look like... That was the reason I dug into this and started swapping filters to begin with... 28mpg is unsat lol. |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by batman on 02/10/18 at 15:14:17 chris ,cheer up we all goof ,I had you at 9000ft and you are at 90 how's that for goof! Does your face look like this? :)then it's all good. |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by Christof13T on 02/10/18 at 17:45:40 Lol yeah well it will be if the efficiency improves as well as performance just did. It's like 1/3 of its nootz were restrained. I'm thinking bout lifting it one more washer and turning the mix screw in about a quarter of a turn and see how it does for 60 miles or so. Throttle response is much more snappy, and there is almost no lag in feedback. I will take a video of it acting right in it's new form tomorrow and post it... Much less fed up with it lmao... |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by batman on 02/11/18 at 09:59:06 Chris ,three washers are usually used for elevations above 1000ft ,your close to sea level that's why I said two. Three might have you running to lean, but you could try, and just check your plug. I'm thinking your mpg should jump to at least low to mid 40's. |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by norm92de on 02/11/18 at 12:26:19 You figured out what was going on Batman. Good for you. :) |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by batman on 02/11/18 at 13:14:05 Norm , the fact that Chris was running oversize main jet ,but his plug was showing lean ,made me suspect. he also said he was running speeds of about 55-60 ,this is mid range (1/4-3/4 throttle) and controlled by the needle jet, jet needle,(lean) not the main(3/4-WOT) he had to have been running past 3/4 throttle to achieve 60 mph thus is poor mpg of 28.34.(rich because of the large main) |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by Eegore on 02/11/18 at 20:15:04 I was told here that removing the gas cap, then parking a new bike under it, replacing the cap would have fixed it. |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by Christof13T on 02/11/18 at 20:55:40 It was too dang cold to really go ride today but I did swap the filters back and forth a couple of times and it seriously does not like that big free flowing cone filter! It does exactly the same thing every time I put it on there. It seems to just refuse to operate the slide at all with the cone... I could ask a little more of it with the pancake filter higher up in the RPM range but I will wait until the full 1500 mile break in completion to start trying to fine tune it too much. If it's not too nasty I will ride tomorrow and see if efficiency has improved. |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by justin_o_guy2 on 02/11/18 at 21:44:35 There are air passages on the end of the carburetor throat. If the mount covers them, stuff don't work |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by Christof13T on 02/12/18 at 04:13:35 4B545255484F7E4E7E46545813210 wrote:
Back up a little in the thread where I started talking about the addition of the big cone air filter... I currently have it plumbed in with: Stock carb-airbox boot to a pvc 90* street with about a 3.5" nipple of pipe hanging down the backside of the battery. The air filter attaches to the end of the nipple hanging down. There are no obstructions. Quite the opposite, I think... is occurring. The cone filer flows too freely, and allows for no build up of air pressure at the rear top edge of the carb mouth. The port on the top side center of the mouth of the carburetor controls the slide diaphragm. It's freaking cold outside this morning... but mostly dry and not too windy. I am going to bundle up and make the commute on it. Keeping the fingers crossed the efficiency improves! |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by Christof13T on 02/12/18 at 04:15:24 735351594453360 wrote:
Now that's just funny right there... |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by Dave on 02/12/18 at 04:41:28 My engine is modified a bit, has a Stage 1 cam, Wiseco piston and the first year after the engine build I ran a stock carb and a Dyna muffler. I used an oxygen sensor to jet the carb - I ended up with a #150 main, #50 pilot and 2 washers. While being gentle on the new piston I regularly got 62 mpg - this was all back road riding between 40-50 mph. As the break in period ended and I started to ride at normal speeds, mileage dropped to somewhere around 55 mpg. (I don't ride 70 - 75 mph highway speeds long enough to know what kind of mileage I get at speed). I can think of only 1 time my mileage ever dropped into the 40's - and I was down in the mountains riding very aggressively around the corners and accelerating on the straight sections.......having a wonderful time! If you aren't getting up into the 50 mpg range - something is wrong with your setup. |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by Eegore on 02/12/18 at 06:58:04 19322833292E353C6B690E5A0 wrote:
Now that's just funny right there... [/quote] Funny because its true! http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1496280933/18#18 Admittedly I rarely work on my own bikes so I am here more to learn than actually apply the skills myself. The info in this thread helps out though. |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by batman on 02/12/18 at 07:30:29 Dave ,we still don't know what he's running for jets. sigma idle jet ?what size is that? main jet? 145.160,170? |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by Dave on 02/12/18 at 07:34:41 4B485D4448471D11290 wrote:
That is my point.....if you are getting mpg in the 30's, the bike is not running like it should. |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by ohiomoto on 02/12/18 at 07:54:28 6A415B405A5D464F181A7D290 wrote:
I just watched the video and I'm not even sure why people were bringing up jetting. Jetting will not fix a mechanical problem. Fix the issue and then address the jetting. I'm pretty sure the main issue, which you alluded to, was that the slide was not opening. When you open the throttle, it opens the butterfly at the mouth of the carb. This increases the vacuum that SHOULD be opening your slide which raises the needle and pulls more fuel and air. In the video, it sounds like you are just pulling a little more air into the engine and it is mostly running on the pilot circuit. You probably fixed it right when you did the white spacer mod again. If it happens again, pull the air boot and watch the slide. It's probably not opening much at all. You should be able to raise it with a screwdriver (or your finger if you don't mind burns if it backfires). If it doesn't open, make sure the diaphragm is seated correctly and not damaged. Also, make sure the slide isn't worn and dirty. Same with the inside of carb where the slide rides. This happened to me. I didn't have the diaphragm seated properly. The bike wouldn't go past 20mph. Then later in the season, the slide started sticking at mid throttle periodically when the black coating on wore off and caked up in the body. A $125 slide and a good cleaning later, my bike ran fine. |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by batman on 02/12/18 at 14:50:57 Ohiomoto , a least part of the problem was "jetting" ,you think the slide wasn't lifting ,but he had not lifted the needle ,but dropped it.the slide was lifting but the needle wasn't letting enough fuel into the carb so he was running lean, and his sparkplug showed that. He should only be making one change at a time ,but he's changing slides ,jets ,air filters ,washers on the needle and fuel screw adjustments, all at once.That makes it impossible to know what's working or not working. You may be right about the slide sticking but we may not be able to tell until the jetting is at least in the ballpark. |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by Christof13T on 02/12/18 at 16:25:26 Well... 29.89mpg on today's trip of 67 miles from gas pump to gas pump. 65-70mph with cross and head winds. It starts to Peter out at 70 and flat out tops at 75. Smaller pilot... bigger main, and another shim maybe? Before anyone freaks out, I'm feathering and floating the throttle constantly dropping down to below 65 and then back up to 70... 72 for a minute or so, then slowly float it back down... I am ordering a regular rebuild kit and a set of jets 2 freaking night! Probably going to order a RYCA cone filter too. |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by batman on 02/12/18 at 17:24:12 Chris, bigger pilot maybe ,smaller main, You have to remember that the jets are cumulative , even at WOT your still getting fuel from pilot jet, needle jet ,and jet needle. If you keep your speed under 65mph( Which you seem able to make) you should not be using the main jet, unless the pilot is too small, if it is then your opening the throttle more (past 3/4) and starting to use the main ,which is much to large and killing your mileage . Your wind screen isn't helping, and the place to start is to get a decent muffler first,( if the stock one is drilled it could be half the problem) you can tune a carb to your exhaust ,but you can't do the opposite. 72 is your top speed because your going to WOT and running way to rich, If you were running to lean the bike would accelerate,( a slightly lean mix produces more hp) but it's not it's bogging .(rich) 170 jet is passing about 30% more fuel than a 150 jet .Are you running high octane fuel? |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by Christof13T on 02/12/18 at 18:34:33 Premium pump gas. 93 octane. I sent Lancer a pm about ordering a set of jets. I don't trust what I see on ebay after the 6Sigma flop... The pictres of the dyno research and dyno jet sets look like they come with a whole bunch of mains... but no pilots.. and like 4 needles... but in the description is states 1 set tailored to your application... I'll go with the guy that deals with parts for these bikes specifically on the regular. I get what your saying about why I should change which jets, and how backwards I was thinking. I'm starting to get it lol. |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by batman on 02/12/18 at 18:59:26 I think Lancer puts together a good set at a good price . Glad your thinking about going that way.good luck! |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by norm92de on 02/12/18 at 19:29:26 I don't know what I am missing here but what is wrong with what Suzuki started out with? The carb is set up by the EPA. You need to make it richer to run properly, however when you changed the air filter you started all over again. If the fuel system is set up stock. Go from there. One thing I do know is that you only change one thing at a time. Evaluate what you did and then go from there. |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by ohiomoto on 02/13/18 at 06:19:40 1E352F342E29323B6C6E095D0 wrote:
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by batman on 02/13/18 at 06:56:48 You might keep in mind that octane is a fuels resistance to burn ,which means that the flame front occurs much later ,and therefore not all the fuel may have time to ignite and gets pushed out with the exhaust gases. your mileage is running out your tailpipe. |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by Dave on 02/13/18 at 07:29:24 6566736A6669333F070 wrote:
I don't agree with that.....the Premium fuel required by the Wiseco piston does not burn so slow that it can't keep up with a slow turning single. He may have such a rich mixture that some of it is going out the exhaust unburned - but it is not a result of the fuel octane. I have a Wiseco, I use Premium, and I regularly get mpg in the high 50's. I am not a fan of small cone filters.....and I agree the stock air system likely works better and is easier to get jetted properly. |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by batman on 02/13/18 at 09:31:00 Dave, you may be right ,but then if he's running as rich as we think how much O2 is there to allow complete combustion ? there may be a lot of raw fuel being exhausted for that reason. His fuel to air ratio may be pushing the 20:1 limit. |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by Christof13T on 02/14/18 at 09:33:14 It acts significantly better with a 52.5 pilot and 145 main. It was holding 70mph at 2/3 throttle and didn't just bog down when I twisted into it at that speed... it wanted to giddy up. It still kind of flattened out at 75 ish on a downhill but I was in a pretty good headwind. I will run it like this for a tank or so and see what the numbers are looking like. |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by verslagen1 on 02/14/18 at 09:51:23 Hold it at WFO till you are at max speed. Then back it off a little and if it feels like it picks up a little, then go up a jet size. |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by Christof13T on 02/15/18 at 04:18:29 So barring any screwy efficiency numbers, I think it has significantly improved. It does not act like it wants to accelerate any more if I try rolling off the throttle once it reaches max speed. It does pop a little on decel but much more tolerable than it was. I'm much less concerned with the backfires on decel and shutdown than I am with drivability. Now I don't get stuck in the wind bubbles while getting around big trucks. The pvc elbow moved the air filter to a spot where for whatever reason it is no longer trying to deafen me lol. When I had it directly on the carb it was obnoxiously loud. The engine does not sound as labored at higher speeds. It now gets up to highway speed pretty dang fast... almost as fast as I can roll the throttle! Thank you fellas for offering up your experience and expertise. I was getting close to throwing in the towel and just selling it lol. Would you believe I have had 2 offers of 5k$ for it in the past 2 weeks!? Being in the situation I was in... The offers were pretty dang tempting. I am glad I held out l though. If all goes well, I will get my YZF600 out of the shop in the next couple days so my better half and I can go ride again. She has not been on a bike since the day the 1st wiseco piston failed. She has been binge watching moto-vloggers in lieu of getting on the bike. I have a brand spankin` new set of Shenko something or other paid for and waiting on me to pick up when I go get the YZF. In addition to the fresh set of sneeks, this bike will get an overbuilt aluminum diamond plate battery box... And that's it. I'm calling this build complete. It's comfortable, fun to ride, aesthetically pleasing to look at (to me anyway lol), and super easy to work on with all the extra junk out of the way. It turns heads, and confuses people regularly! I love the questions on peoples' faces when they realize it is not a sportster lol! |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by Dave on 02/15/18 at 04:50:39 103B213A20273C35626007530 wrote:
Good for you. You need to jet the carb for how the bike "runs" while applying throttle - not for what the bike does when coasting. The stock muffler (and air cleaner) do a good job of masking the sound and making the bike quiet - when you install a different air cleaner and more open exhaust......you can more clearly hear the noise that is inherent in a big single and a simple carb. When an engine has 250cc per cylinder they don't make a lot of noise on decel......650cc cylinders can get noisy. |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by ohiomoto on 02/15/18 at 05:04:28 4F647E657F78636A3D3F580C0 wrote:
Unbelievable! More unbelievable is that you didn't take the money and run!! |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by Christof13T on 02/15/18 at 10:57:19 I know right! I probably should have jumped on it lol. Next time someone makes the offer, its getting sold. |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by LANCER on 02/15/18 at 12:27:05 Call them back and sell it.. You can buy another good used one and play with it and still have money left over. This is the perfect time to buy before it really starts to warm up. |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by justin_o_guy2 on 02/15/18 at 12:33:34 I did the bodywork on my boss's 64 F 150. Didn't have all the trim on it yet, but he was running errands with it. He came in bragging some guy offered$7,000.00 for it at a light. I said Show me the keys. He did. I asked Do you know what that means? He.. No , What? Me Two idiots met.. |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by Christof13T on 02/16/18 at 06:25:52 58555A5751460603340 wrote:
They were both just random dudes. One at the gas pump, and one on my way into little caeser's to grab lunch. I guess I just wasn't gifted with that salesman reflex. My first thoughts were that I just put so much time into it, and it's not even broken in yet! Lol. |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by justin_o_guy2 on 02/16/18 at 07:58:45 You can tell the next on you're too deep in it to let it go for five.. but six would work,, and let him talk you down a bit. |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by Christof13T on 02/17/18 at 05:28:12 Ok, the carb rebuild kit came in yesterday morning. I picked it up from the post office on the way out of town and was almost salivating to get it all swapped out when I got home. The rebuild kit came with a 130 main jet, and I wanna say a 45.5 pilot. It also came with a replacement jet for the top side (the smaller one) and new needle jet and needle. The needle it came with has the 3 position undercuts for the e clip. I set it to the middle slot with 1 shim under the clip. The idle now sounds lopey like a cam'd up sb 350. It hesitates and wants to stall if I give it a bump of throttle from idle... but will climb the revs if I start to roll on it very gently. It is ballsy as all get out in 1st... most of 2nd, then falls on its face 1/3rd or so into the throttle. I'm going to try going back to the pilot I previously had in it, leave the 130 main jet, and put the stock Jett I replaced back in the top side. On the plus side, the fresh float valve and seat have cured the fuel puking issue... |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by Christof13T on 02/17/18 at 06:56:02 Swapped the 130 main jet back out with the 145, and put the pilot jet marked 52.5 back in, rechecked the needle and noticed it was NOT on the middle undercut, it was on the bottom... so moved it up to the middle notch. Also swapped the smaller jet on the top side back out to the stock one. I wanna say it is a number 45... the kit came with a number 70. Along with a little silly cone lube spray on the slide... these last changes have greatly improved the behavior. We're going to go for a ride yo rockport and back as soon as the bike shop opens up so I can go pick up my Thundercat. This will be my better half's first time back on the bike since the first rebuild failure. |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by Christof13T on 02/18/18 at 05:16:32 Finally got her new sneaks on yesterday. Our plans to actually go ride were kinda shot to hell tho. The shop was crazy busy so they did not get my tires mounted until right before 5pm. I was mistsken... they are not Shenko something or other. .. they are Dunlop something or other lol. I attempted to dismount the old ones myself here at the house and promptly learned I had bitten off way more than I could chew with my spoons. I probably could have gotten them off the rims but not without causing serious damage. I suppose it was worth the 90$ extra for dismount, mount, balance at the stealership. I'm still confused as to weather at this point it would like a leaner, or richer mix to play nicer at 70+mph. I have the 52.5 pilot and 145 main jet in it now with the e clip on the slide needle in the middle position with 2 spacer shims under it. I hope to see that efficiency has improved after today's ride to Rockport and back. |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by ohiomoto on 02/18/18 at 06:41:23 567D677C66617A73242641150 wrote:
Doesn't sound like the kit was made for the Savage with those jets. Probably why you ended up using the stock jets. That's why I'll never buy a carb "rebuild kit" for a motorcycle. There is really nothing in it that you can't buy on your own. They just sell you a few jets, a gasket, and float needle & seat if it's a good kit. Plus, I have never once seen a clogged jet in a motorcycle that has sat less than a 4-5 years. |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by Christof13T on 02/18/18 at 12:07:41 I honestly only spent the 25$ or so for the full rebuild kit for the brand new float valve and seat. It has cured the vent puke problem so far. I guess I could have just found and ordered the valve and seat by themselves but figured wth... if nothing else I will have more spares of everything else. The ride down to rockport this morning was borderline miserable. Visibility was at about 100 yes due to fog. The fog droplets were dang near as big as rain droplets lol. The better half was a bit nerve rattled in the weather so we putted along between 55-60mph most of the trip. She did start getting comfortable about 15 miles out as the sun started peeking and rolled into it up to 70mph a few times. I will update again when we fill up for the ride home with efficiency numbers from this morning's ride. |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by Christof13T on 02/18/18 at 18:14:12 I think we may be on to something. After about a 90 mile back roads round about route to rockport this morning the bike consumed 1.921 gal at the pump before heading back to the bustling metropolis of victoria. (Not really "about", it was exactly 90.4 miles from pump to pump...) it was pretty foggy this morning and right on the bleeding edge of rain 3/4 of the trip. We mostly hung around between 55-65... with a few very short bursts up to 70. 47mpg is a bit of an improvement. The new Dunlops don't look too bad. I'll try to remember to get a picture in the morning before I head back down south. |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by batman on 02/18/18 at 21:17:14 Chris ,E clip on the needle? Are you running a needle other than stock ? Was that a part of the Sigma kit? Or are you running a 86/87 carb? If your bike is newer than 95 and you been mixing parts from the old and new style carbs your in big trouble ,these are two different animals. |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by Christof13T on 02/19/18 at 04:55:24 The e clip at the top of the needle in the slide... There was one present on the stock needle on both carbs. The needle that came with the rebuild kit has 3 undercuts (grooves) for rough setting needle height. The kit was described and sold as being specifically for the savage. Everything fit like it was supposed to... just made it crazy lean. I am starting to get closer to that balance of efficiency and seat of the pants dyno happiness. I am going to leave it alone for a while and let the better half get used to riding again before I try and get more giddy up out of it. At this point I'm pretty happy with where it is going. It keeps up with traffic for the most part and the efficiency almost doubling makes it that much more affordable to take the bikes vs the diesel guzzling powerstroke. I filled up both bikes to the brim before we headed home yesterday for 10$ even Steven with 93oct pump gas. Can't beat that with a stick! |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by batman on 02/19/18 at 10:06:50 If your bike is newer than 95 the stock carb needle would not have an E clip or grooves. and it would not be tapered. If your using the newer carb body neither one of the needles is correct. A stock bike should run 85-87 mph ,you have a larger piston at higher compression ,and you can't break 70 ? something is wrong.You may be getting better mileage ,but you may have gone from running very rich , to running very lean (more dangerous)an could damage your motor . I would not be letting this go.I'd be looking for the problem. |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by Christof13T on 02/19/18 at 11:49:07 The spare carb I have is from a '98... If there were no groove or clip... what would keep the needle from riding all we way up in the slide? On both my slide assemblies the needle is held in place by a little plate, held down by 2 little buggers of screws. There is also a spring that rides under the clip. Without a clip, what good would spacers or shims do? In the stock configuration there was the original thick white spacer above the clip. I removed it... and put 2 metal spacer shims beneath it and on top of the spring. This basically compresses the spring which increases the tension on the needle. Maybe I have my nomenclature confused... |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by batman on 02/19/18 at 12:08:53 Your right ,I had to take a look at the carb drawing. My mistake there is a E-clip ,If you took out the white spacer and placed the two #4 washers in the same exact place the spacer was your OK. If your running a 145 stock main then it's the reason you can't achieve a higher top speed ,you'll have to go to a 150 or larger. |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by Christof13T on 02/19/18 at 16:07:21 I did not put the shims in the same place. In the original configuration the white spacer was above the e-clip. I must have misread something somewhere, because I have the 2 little washer shims under the e-clip. That must be a big part of why it's been running so dang rich? We did not take the bikes down there today... had to tote a drywall hoist because day 1 of hanging sheet rock on the ceiling reminded us both that a long time has passed since we were 20yrs old lol. |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by batman on 02/19/18 at 16:27:06 We have a winner! Yes putting the washers in in the wrong place actually allowed the needle to move up the entire width of the white spacer, rather than the room the 2 washers would take up (about half) this would cause you to run to rich from about 1/4 to WOT. I had an old farmhouse 4500 sq.ft. with 10 ft. ceilings and plaster and lath walls I gutted and sheet rocked ,the older you get, the heavier it gets. |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by Christof13T on 02/20/18 at 16:31:02 Yeah.. 5/8" mold and moisture resistant sheets of rock are no joke. Fortunately the drywall hoist made light work of the 20 sheets that went up on the ceiling today. I'm freaking still beat up though lol. I have about 14 more sheets to go covering the walls... and then all the fun of tape, float, texture, paint... I'm just too exhausted to do much else but slap together something to eat and pass the heck out! The weather is supposed to be crappy anyway for the next few days, so I guess I can stand not messing with it for tonight. The walls are much easier on the body... so with any grace I will be energetic enough to pull the carb tomorrow when I get home. |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by Christof13T on 02/22/18 at 17:03:47 So I pulled the top side of the carb back apart this morning and repositioned the spacers/washers to where they are supposed to be and wouldn't you know it... The bike started trying to cooperate with me! It pulled like a freight train up to 35mph in 1st and had a slight hiccup... Smooth through the rest of the gears. After about about a 15 minute ride I guess everything finished warming all the way up and the hiccup cleared. I'm still thinking (and agree with Batzy) that it will probably like a 150 or 152.5 main jet a little better than the 145 that is in it. |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by Christof13T on 02/23/18 at 14:58:02 Efficiency is still improving. 47.10mpg over the 85 mile trip to rockport this morning averaging 65mph. It still falls on its face around 75mph, but my jet set from Lancer is ordered... so we will see how it acts with a 150, 152.5, or 155 main. |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by ohiomoto on 02/23/18 at 16:46:43 You'll be lucky to crack 80 mph going downhill. So be more concerned with how it gets from 60-75 mph. That's what I worry about. I found that my bike is more responsive on the lean side. The PO had a 55 pilot and a 155 in my bike. It sounded nice, but performed like a turd. Had to down shift going up hills, was a pig on fuel, spitting wet carbon exhaust all over the back wheel, etc. Went back to stock and it could idle up hills in 5th gear (slight exaggeration) and accelerated quicker. So quick it would flatten out fast, which made it feel almost slow, like it wasn't pulling as hard. But the bike was topping out in each gear quicker with less noise (a cleaner, quieter sound) that made it seem like it lost power. It pulls better at highway speeds but gets really soft at 75 mph. It runs so well off the bottom, I almost don't want to mess with it. It's really fun to short shift it. I would like it to pull each gear just a tad longer so I'll mess around with the main jet a little more but I can't see ever going as rich as the guy I bought it from. |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by LANCER on 02/23/18 at 18:30:59 3D3A3B3D3F3D263D520 wrote:
Any stock engined bike, even with an HD muffler, should never have a main jet larger than a 152.5, and a pilot of 52.5. Depending on geography you might run better with 50/150, or combinations of those sets. |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by Christof13T on 02/28/18 at 07:02:24 The jet set from Lancer was waiting on me this morning when I checked the box. I put the 150 main in and replaced the 52.5 pilot that was in there with the new one that came in the kit. Gonna go see how it acts in a bit... waiting on the bike shop to open up to see about getting a fresh filter. It is oil change time. |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by Christof13T on 03/01/18 at 17:59:38 The dealership put a couple filters on rush for me yesterday and sure enough they showed up today. I swung by and picked them and a couple fresh spare orings up and briskly made my way to the house. Fresh filter, fresh oil, and no changes in jetting other than the jump from 145 to 150 main. It pulls like a freight train in 1st up to 40mph. Pulls all the way to redding without skipping a beat in 2nd. It flattens out at about 60 in 3rd. It makes it to 70 in 4th, could probably push it harder in no wind to 75. In 5th it does 75 at 1/2 to 2/3 throttle. It gets a little wobbly trying to push much past that on the particular road I was testing on. Might be a little better on the highway... might be a lot better with no windshield and the front fender mounted back on to help stabilize the forks. It might stand to go up one more size on the main... in which case you hit the nail directly on the head Batz. Will see how it does going down to the coast and back tomorrow. |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by justin_o_guy2 on 03/01/18 at 18:05:45 Has anyone talked about oil? The dealership isn't gonna have the one the Savage needs. Cheapest, Good oil is Shell Rotella 15/40 |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by Christof13T on 03/02/18 at 04:21:50 I'm running T4 in the Savage. Next oil change I will try t6. Oil filter is aftermarket HiFlow HF137. |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by LANCER on 03/02/18 at 06:50:43 5C776D766C6B70792E2C4B1F0 wrote:
T4 has the same DDP as the synthetic, and costs almost half the price. |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by JLC on 03/02/18 at 09:40:31 You might find this article interesting: http://blog.jpcycles.com/the-great-oil-debate-synthetic-or-conventional/ |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by Christof13T on 03/03/18 at 02:16:08 Lancer... I know T4 is cheaper... just trying to consolidate to save space. My truck, the diesel generator, and my yzf600r all drink t6... so switching the savage over to it too makes my life easier. Efficiency is still improving! 47mpg yesterday and we were not dilly dallying. Averaging 70-75mph. Still running with the 52.5 pilot and 150 main. |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by LANCER on 03/03/18 at 03:56:52 6348524953544F46111374200 wrote:
That makes sense then, keeping it easier. 47mpg is pretty good if you are running 70-75mph. What is your needle setting ? White spacer ? Shaved ? or washers ? |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by Christof13T on 03/03/18 at 06:32:58 Needle setting is white spacer completely removed. Replaced with 2 washers. |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by norm92de on 03/03/18 at 12:11:24 In case you are interested. The Suzuki standard slot width in the needle is .9mm, about .035". Our bikes sadly only have the one slot. But the measurement gives one an idea of how much to raise the needle when tuning. Hope this will help your efforts. |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by batman on 03/05/18 at 10:11:56 Chris ,I'd be going to a larger main asap ,if your going to run highway speeds you don't want to be running lean and hot ,you could cause damage ,even if you jumped to the 155 you might run rich but only foul a sparkplug (which could be cleaned and reused).I think it maybe a mistake to not stick with t-4 until you have at least 1500 miles on the bike and the break in period is complete. |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by Dave on 03/05/18 at 10:47:31 1338223923243F36616304500 wrote:
6A697C6569663C30080 wrote:
What makes you think he needs a main jet bigger than a #150? |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by batman on 03/05/18 at 11:47:13 Dave ,his elevation is only 90 /120ft. above sea level ,what makes you thing he doesn't? a 155 or 152.5 may well be to rich ,but won't cause damage and won't increase the added heat of break in ,he can settle on THE proper jet size later .He's running a larger piston( increased compression temps) and I believe a stock muffler that has been drilled ,that and his elevation ,makes me think 150 jet isn't going to cut it. |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by Christof13T on 03/05/18 at 15:30:15 Getting closer and closer... I was pretty much convinced it was not getting enough air with that little RYCA pancake pod filter. I decided to play around with that big honking cone filter idea again... I read the thread dood just posted about having too big of an air filter and the symptoms he described were exact mirrors of what mine was doing with the big cone filter installed. His attempt to restrict airflow gave me the same idea. I pulled out my trusty roll of t-rex duct tape and proceeded to use it to block off about 3/4 of the filter element starting at the end, working back toward the mounting flange like opening. I started with just a single wrap of the full width tape and went to test it... it responded to the restriction and I got an extra 10mph out of 1st gear before it started stuttering. Another overlapping wrap of tape to get to that 3/4 ish mark and tested it again... pure brilliance! She wraps all the way up through the rpm range with balls to the wall power without hiccups! Next quest... 70+mph oomph! I went ahead and threw in the 55 pilot... and after a test ride felt it could probably do with a bit more fuel at the top end. It would get to 70 and again just fall on its face... So I huff and puff... just tired of opening that darn carburetor so much... and go out this morning to swap in the 155 main. And boom goes the dynamite! It now comfortably maintains 75 ish with room in the throttle. I will have mileage numbers in the morning when we stop to fill up. I'm already just assuming it will have dropped to the high 30's. It's added pep has enboldened the rider to more enthusiastic throttle control... P.s. Batz, It is past the 1500 mile break in period. Back in service @ 4333.0, currently @5864.3. |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by batman on 03/05/18 at 23:18:29 Restricting the air flow into the carb is ludicrous ,the problem isn't that you have to much air, ( the piston can only pull in what it displaces ) it's that you don't have enough fuel ,put in larger jets! Heck ,if the motor is pulling to much air ,you could sleeve the cylinder and put in a smaller piston ,that makes as much sense as closing off the carb inlet! restricting the air inlet is just masking the fact that your running the bike to lean! You tune a bike buy adjusting the carb ,not the air cleaner. |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by Christof13T on 03/06/18 at 04:23:08 I know it sounds ludicrous. I would not have believed it myself until it worked. Without some restriction on the intake, the slide will not operate. I have tried every jet combination I have with it unrestricted and get exactly the same result every time. As soon as I taped up the filter, problem was cured. So it seems for at least 2 of us, restriction at the intake is necessary. |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by Dave on 03/06/18 at 05:09:14 I agree with Batman - if you have to choke off the intake to make the bike run well.......there is some other issue that is being masked by the "artificial restriction". I doubt that the big air cleaner has anything to do with how the slide moves - it is more likely that it is restricting the air flow and creating a richer fuel mixture. If you need to block off air flow to obtain a proper mixture - then something else is wrong with your carb (it could be jetting, it could be fuel flow). Sometimes issue are hard to find - but blocking off air flow is really not a proper fix. |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by batman on 03/06/18 at 07:45:10 I think it may be that the motor is to "free flowing " it hasn't got enough backpressure due to the muffler (or rather the lack of a decent muffler) that both these bikes share. neither of the bikes started their builds by first securing a proper exhaust system. both would benefit more from restricting the exhaust rather than the intake. while both bikes may run fine at higher speeds due to the increased vacuum in the carb pulling added fuel from the jets, what they don't understand is this will probably not work at all at lower speeds ,where they could be running dangerously lean, when there restrictors ,slides and throttles are all cracked open almost equally , there is no added vacuum to enrich the fuel mixture.while theywere busy trying to obtain the speed of 75 -80 they haven't considered what the bike is doing at 35-40 in town traffic. |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by Christof13T on 03/06/18 at 07:58:01 This air filter is huge compared to the RYCA pancake pod. I have basically mimicked the amount of available surface space of the filter element to come close to matching the pancake filter. There is literally 4 times the surface area available to the carb with this big cone unrestricted. Reducing that surface area to what was available with the pancake has cured the issue of the slide failing to operate. There is clearly a necessity for balance between the available filter element surface area and the intake restriction factors from the carb forward. If the surface area of the filter element provides more flow than the intake plumbing can use, and the intake plumbing can also provide more airflow than the engine can consume, a buildup of vacuum to operate the slide will have a difficult time occurring. In the current configuration the bike performs at very least satisfactorily, a nice balance between lean and rich. Not consuming oil. Not making any unusual noises. Seems to still be running fairly efficiently. .. What is wrong with the duct tape solution beyond it not being purpose manufactured to work for this specific engine with its displacement and compression changes? If it's stupid... but it works, is it really stupid? |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by Christof13T on 03/06/18 at 08:04:21 The muffler is stock + 1 5/16" hole drilled in the back plate. The muffler is not causing a lack of vacuum at the intake... |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by Dave on 03/06/18 at 08:18:54 507B617A60677C75222047130 wrote:
I am still not convinced that the issue involves your slide not moving - you really don't know where your slide is when the engine operates poorly....the problem actually could be related to an improper fuel mixture. The vacuum that allows the slide to open/close comes from the engine side of the slide - not from the intake side. You may be far better off to put a Mikuni Round slide carb on the bike.....the CV carb is obviously not working for you. |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by Christof13T on 03/06/18 at 09:13:41 That is incorrect. The port on both my carbs that operates the slide is on the filter side. It is on the top side center and oval shaped and curves downward like a frown face. |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by batman on 03/06/18 at 09:14:04 Chris , doesn't it seem funny that racing motorcycles ,don't run air filters at all? The problem you have isn't that the slide isn't opening it's the fact that the fuel mix is going lean. what you could try rather than restricting the air intake is removing one more washer from the needle jet. your running a bigger piston the vacuum in the carb is caused by the piston moving down ,drawing fuel and air in and has little to do with the size of the air cleaner. but let's look at where the power is being made, what's happening in side the cylinder? how do you make power? air and fuel in ,BANG exhaust out! getting the exhaust out is all important! exhaust has two components ,a pressure wave and exhaust gases, the wave travels at nearly the speed of sound the gases slower. when the wave reaches the end of the header pipe some of it leaves with the gases but the rest reverses and moves back up the header as a negative pressure and if it arrives during valve overlap(rpm dependent) helps pull out the remaining exhaust gases and helps pull in more fresh fuel mix. your wave is weakened buy having a drilled muffler more of the wave is leaving with the gases, and you've restricted the incoming fuel mix . therefore you leave more exhaust gases in the cylinder and there is less room for the incoming mix (Leaner charge=less power)It seems funny to me that my stock 95 will run 88mph with only a Dyna muffler and carb jetting. your attacking the wrong end of the problem. |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by verslagen1 on 03/06/18 at 09:15:02 carburation is a balancing act. The intake vacuum vs fuel level in the bowl vs atmospheric air pressure at the filter. If you're choking the inlet to increase intake vacuum to promote the fuel ratio somethings wrong. Do you have an air leak in the intake manifold? Have you plugged the vacuum port? Is your float level correct? Are your bowl vents open? Is your air filter clean? Valves adjusted? What does sparky look like? You have 1 extra hole in the muff, what's the back pressure like? Such as, if it were loose would it blow off when running? |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by Dave on 03/06/18 at 09:43:27 557E647F65627970272542160 wrote:
The port on the top side of the intake is the vent for the bottom side of the diaphragm......the vacuum that raises the slide comes from the two holes in the bottom/front of the slide - when there is enough vacuum on the top side of the diaphragm to overcome the slide spring and the pressure at the vent on the inlet side...the slide will raise until the flow is stabilized. By restricting the flow on the inlet side - you are actually making it harder for the engine to raise the slide. |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by batman on 03/06/18 at 09:55:01 It may well be that the stock muffler is to restrictive for your larger displacement ,and has to much back pressure . You may want to do the Hartman muffler mod, it's listed in the Tech Section. |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by Christof13T on 03/06/18 at 15:10:58 Ok... I'm understanding a little better about which ports actually operate the slide.. and that the size of the air filter shouldn't have anything to do with slide operating... So why does the change in available filter element surface area have such a dramatic effect on how if responds? Batz, we have already been down the road of less washers... remember I had the whole thing backwards at one point. So even forced full rich at the needle height adjustment there was not enough fuel with a #170 main? Come on... I just ran up to wally world and back after swapping out mirrors and pulled the windshield. I had not taken it on the highway since the last adjustment, just around here in the neighborhood. It has gobs of go. It is still running 43ish mpg while that windshield was still on it pushing 75mph for over an hour... I'm not complaining. If it's stupid. And it works... Is it stupid? |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by Dave on 03/06/18 at 15:51:19 577C667D67607B72252740140 wrote:
You are restricting airflow - which will create more vacuum.....which will pull more fuel from the float bowl. |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by batman on 03/06/18 at 16:47:31 The motor is like your lung ,it has to "breath " in and out. If you have to restrict the intake to get it to run ,then maybe that's because it's not breathing out. You might try drilling more holes in the rear of the stock muffler, allowing less back pressure , keeping the holes small so that if they don't work you could refill them by using pop rivets .If it doesn't work ,your out nothing ,if it does you'll understand you need a Dyna muffler or something better. the stock muffler is bad on a stock motor ,which is why most go to the less restrictive Dyna, I can' t think that it would be better with your new piston. |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by justin_o_guy2 on 03/07/18 at 09:24:40 I'd rip the filter off and see what happens. How hard would it be to go back to stock? How that filter attaches is important. There are air inlets that can be covered that screws things up. One thing is known Change the ease of air flow in or out, and the engine is imbalanced. Opening the intake up without opening up the exhaust and rejetting isn't gonna work. Open the exhaust up without dealing with the intake and jetting, and you don't gain anything. Read about Intake Design Theory There are some really good videos on Exhaust header designs |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by batman on 03/07/18 at 10:32:51 I still thing he's restricting the intake, to match a restricted exhaust ,which balances the fuel ratio. Running 95MM 10.5: 1 piston with a stock muffler doesn't cut it. He's gone to a less restricted air cleaner . a larger hi compression piston , but done nothing to the exhaust. It's breathing in (trying),but it's not breathing out.Question, has anyone that has gone to a bigger piston using the stock muffler unmodified ? |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by Dave on 03/07/18 at 11:35:53 6A697C6569663C30080 wrote:
Nobody I know.....most times the muffler was one of the first things changed. |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by batman on 03/08/18 at 00:49:07 Dave just the point I was trying to make ,If your going to do mods you should start with a muffler that is better (less restrictive) and then tune the carb to it, and add a more open air cleaner and retune the carb again if needed ,not try to tune the carb with duct tape to try and make it work with a less than decent exhaust system. |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by Christof13T on 03/08/18 at 05:48:23 Back to the beginning of all this fun... Remember that the rebuild was due to piston/bore failure... It was not rebuilt with the high compression piston solely chasing performance. I just wanted it to not grenade on me... the increased potential of performance was just a bonus. The bore was so bad the 1st time there was no option other than 97mm. I stuck with the high comp piston for the second build because it was insured and already paid for. Since we started with a new sleeve the 2nd build, it only got opened up to 95mm, instead of the extra 100$ or more it would have cost me to put in a 94mm. Besides the single 5/15" hole I drilled in the back plate of the muffler there were no other modifications made to hard parts. What prompted the air filter experiment was that couple days of 28mpg... That led us back down the rabbit hole of spacer placement on the needle... and we got that sorted out... Then on to fueling at high rpm.. 55 pilot and 155 main sorted that out... It still ran just fine with the air filter pancake that was "designed " for this engine... interesting that the available surface area of that filter is about the same as a stock slide in cartridge for the stock airbox... Again on to the big cone filter... At 4 times the available surface area. It leaned out the mix as soon as it reached the point where the slide should have opened... with it restricted to about stock airflow... it is beast mode, much more fun and stable, and getting acceptable fuel efficiency. I'm on the lookout for a used dyna muffler set... |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by Dave on 03/08/18 at 07:02:36 I wonder what caused the original piston/bore failure...could it have been related to a fuel/air mixture issue? Was the stock air filter and air box already gone before you started the bike rescue/rebuild? I really can't explain all your problems - the stock muffler is restrictive....but not so much that it should make the bike run so poorly or require such big jets. Same for the air filter......it doesn't make sense that it is causing such a problem. The replacement of the stock piston with a higher compression Wiseco and/or the increase from 94mm to 95mm really doesn't upset the jetting much at all.......the additional airflow through the carb isn't very significant - and it doesn't require drastic changes in carb jetting. I would suggest you go to a setup that we know works - the stock airbox with a paper filter.....and DYNA muffler - and since you are so close to sea level a #152.5 main, #52.5 pilot and 2 washers on the needle. If that doesn't allow the bike to run well - you have something else wrong (cam timing, leaky valve, air leak, fuel flow, etc). |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by Christof13T on 03/08/18 at 18:54:56 But it is running well... I just mimicked the available surface area of a stock air filter. I would like it to have a little more before it flattens out in 3rd and 4th but otherwise it is running great. I have no interest on putting the stock airbox back on it at this point. I will take a video and post the link tomorrow of how it's acting now. The original failure is still undetermined. No one has been able to explain the rat chewed looking edge of the top of the piston, and there were no correlating marks in the bore. The piston had locked on all 4 "corners". The engine at that point was virgin. Not even the carb was touched. It had 4150 miles on it when I tore it down if I remember correctly. |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by batman on 03/08/18 at 19:16:02 The rat chewed edge of the piston is from over heating, the top ring expands and the ends jam together ,there is no more room for the ring to expand so it pushed up until the top edge of the piston broke away. Doing 75 mph with less than 200 miles on the piston could easily have generated that level of heat. but who would do such a thing? P.S. Shrulk is running a large air filter 155 main and no duct tape.You need a Dyna or similar muffler ,and you'll also be able to retire your duct tape. |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by Christof13T on 03/09/18 at 05:07:12 Batz... the first failure, not the 2nd one. The rings were securely in their grooves, none were busted or even chipped. Suzuki could not even figure our what happened to the top of the piston. I was not doing 75 when the first failure occurred. I was closer to 85 going up hill. The 2nd failure on the engine was already covered, gone over, scrutinized, and made right by the fellow that punched the bore. One more time... it does not matter how easy one takes it on the engine during break in if the bore is oversize. The bore was oversize. THE BORE WAS OVERSIZE! Period. Heat still does not explain the damage on the original piston. It almost looks flame cut, like it was cut sloppy from stock and run anyway, and somehow made it past qc. |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by Dave on 03/09/18 at 05:21:51 I don't know what is going on with your carb/jetting etc. My procedure for jetting a carb is to take and educated guess on where to start with jetting. Then I start the bike up and set the idle fuel screw so the bike will run.....then go for a short ride to get the bike fully warmed. Then I do a fine tuning on the idle fuel screw with the idle set low (around 800 rpm), as it allows the screw to be set while the slide/needle is fully closed - if you have to open the screw more than 2.5 turns the pilot jet is too small - if you can turn the screw in less than 1 turn and the engine still runs smoothly...then the jet is too big. (I don't change the pilot jet yet as I still have to see what the main jet is doing). Then bump the idle speed back up to 1,100 rpm. The next step is to go for a ride and find a long steep hill, and get the bike in high gear and open the throttle wide open.....and see how it runs. If it runs smoothly.....I then pay attention to what happens when you begin to roll off the throttle - if it seems to accelerate just slightly that means the main jet is too big....if it seems to hesitate the main jet is too small. Then go back to the shop and let the bike cool down a bit, and then make changes to the pilot and main jet as needed. I do something that may not seem worthwhile - but it makes me feel a lot better. I keep increasing the size of the main jet until I reach a point where it is obvious the main is too big - then I back off one or two sizes. When the main is too big you can hear the change in the exhaust sound as the engine will "blubber" a bit, and it doesn't pull as smoothly as it does with the smaller jets. The last thing I do is work on the needle spacers. With very light acceleration and a barely open throttle - the bike should accelerate smoothly. Ride the bike as if you were in a school zone or riding with the police (or your mom) watching you.......very light throttle settings. I start with 3 washers and if there is a hesitation/surging at light throttle settings - then I remove 1 washer and generally 2 washers will be just right. If you have other mechanical/fuel flow/exhaust/intake issues - it may be impossible to get the jetting correct. |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by batman on 03/09/18 at 08:57:11 The piston was probably a bad casting then ,if the silica (for hardness) is not mixed in evenly the piston could have weak spots and would mostly likely show up at the edges. |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by batman on 03/09/18 at 10:46:09 "The best result comes when we realize that an engine is basically an air pump. Air is pumped in and out and there are problems when one side or the other is RESTRICTED. Balance and flow is our objective, unless you are NOT trying to make more horsepower! " You have restricted your intake to balance the flow of your restricted exhaust. Take the duct tape off your air cleaner, grab a 5/16 drill bit and go out and drill 3 to 5 more holes in the rear of your muffler test ride after each hole drilled .If that isn't better , move to a larger drill and again test ride after redrilling each hole, one at a time.When you see any improvement ,it may be time to retune the carb. It 's time you realized the full potential of your motor which should give you a top speed in the 90's , and run smooth at any rpm. |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by Christof13T on 03/24/18 at 14:40:32 Life/work has been pretty crazy the past couple of weeks. Went from scavenging for any work I could fine... to more work than I can handle by myself lol. I took this weekend off. My body said STOP! Well... I just can't stop... gotta be doing something. The Savage got some attention this morning. Batz, I tried the suggestion of drilling another hole and checking it... but no dice. Zero effect... so I went ahead and swapped carbs. The carb on it now makes it act completely different. It gas a 52.5pilot and a 152.5 main. The adjustment screw block off plug is still in place. It now happily hits 80mph. I discovered something while deep in the guts cleaning the spare carb... The vacuum orifice that is covered by the cover plate on the side of the carb that houses the vacuum diaphragm had a significant build up of crud that had blocked off the vacuum passage. I thoroughly cleaned it. Now my vacuum operated stock petcock is working like it is supposed to! I will run it like this for a while and determine if it needs any more at the top end... but wow! All together a different beast. It responds smoother to throttle with more output than before. Balls for days! No rpm level off... I feel like it would keep revving until it blew apart. 70mph in 3rd gear! It is kinda windy today so I don't wanna push it too hard. Oh.. and it is MUCH quieter with this carb on... the intake is not louder than the exhaust now! Something gas to be jacked up or str8 up clogged in the original carb... |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by batman on 03/24/18 at 21:41:48 Christo 13T, the plate on the side of the carb ,with the three small screws is an enrichment valve that senses high vacuum in the intake passage down stream of the carb , and opens to add fuel to the intake track only when you close the throttle all the way to keep the motor running until it coasts down to idle or you reopen the throttle and has nothing to do with the operation of your stock petcock, nor does it open at all at steady speeds. the petcock draws it vacuum from the large passage inline with the nipple that the hose connects to at the carb that is also down stream from the butterfly valve in the carb. 70 in third gear, really ? did you forget to shift or do you think running the bike past redline is cool? |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by Christof13T on 03/25/18 at 06:11:20 It didn't feel like it was all the way wound out... I shifted up to 4th at that point. I have a video uploading. I'll post the link when it's done. Cool had nothing to do with it... it was more of a surprise than a willful act. An intermittent hesitation still persists. I also caught it doing this on the video. Almost flattening off during acceleration but not as stubborn about it as it was before. I think it is still a slide related symptom. I have not removed the 100mph tape yet that is restricting airflow. I will go ahead and pull the brass plug this morning for a little finer tuning. The slide/diaphragm that is in it is the one that came with it... from a '96 donor. Maybe it's got some perforations I can't see? Maybe the slide is just sticking on a bur? Gonna try hitting it with a little silly cone lube spray. Just for my own reference ... What is the generally accepted redline? At what point do we start approaching redline in say 3rd gear? I do not want to rebuild this engine again lol. |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by batman on 03/25/18 at 07:24:20 Redline for the motor is 6500 rpm ,you may have been at 6600 ,you wouldn't have hurt the motor but I wouldn't make it a habit. you should remove the tape from the air cleaner ,it may be causing your motor to run to rich (bog) and that may be the reason for your hesitation . I'd do that first before trying to adjust the carb. Anything you apply to the side to lube it may make things worse, you can check the bore ,but I'd just make sure it and the slide are clean. |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by Christof13T on 03/25/18 at 07:50:20 It wasn't the tape... I found the problem as soon as I started removing the carb again... 3 of the 4 screws holding on the diaphragm seal plate were GONE! I'm baffled that it made it to 80mph in that condition! So... I went ahead and swapped the slide and diaphragm(the modified one) from the other carb into this one... and replaced the missing screws with the added protection of red lock tite... I took it out for a test run and woundn't you know it... the hesitation has completely disappeared. Crossed my fingers and pulled the air filter, then pulled the tape off... reinstalled the filter and went for another quick little run around the block. I think I just realized its potential. Now that it can breathe, the fuel bowl is staying full, and the slide is operating on demand as it should... It almost scared me. I goosed it a little hard pulling through the yard out to the street and broke the rear wheel loose. I fishtailed until I hit pavement. Pretty stable though! It didn't even want to try sliding out from under me. Once I hit pavement... It was trying to lift the front wheel off the ground! Er Ma Gherd! This is the link for the video of it yesterday... https://youtu.be/UoSLsqIGl6E I'm about to go take a video of how its running now... |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by Christof13T on 03/25/18 at 14:59:47 Here is the link for the video of it in its current condition. https://youtu.be/IG14tFiji6w |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by Christof13T on 03/27/18 at 13:39:20 I went ahead and did valve clearance check and adjusted. Also swapped the 152.5 main out for the 155... huge difference. I ran into rain so I had to delay further testing for a bit. Weather is supposed to be cruddy for a few days... |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by Christof13T on 04/01/18 at 06:28:45 The weather has been nice the past couple of days so I have spent some more time in the saddle and have some observations. It is now more "streetable" than it ever has been. Smooth acceleration through all the gears. Acceptable, predictable, on demand afterfiring on decel... I get one crisp afterfire snap if I let the throttle close all the way during quick shifts... I may have to try to get a video of it vs trying to explain it. It makes it to 80 with no problem. I suspect when I do get it out on the nicer long straight pavement I will see what it really tops out at. Might pull off the windscreen and go see what she can do today. Very little wind this morning, hope it stays that way lol. |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by Dave on 04/01/18 at 08:12:12 567D677C66617A73242641150 wrote:
And that is exactly what should happen on a bike that is jetted properly. When you close the throttle completely, you have shut off the fuel flow from the needle jet........and the fuel mixture is lean as the only fuel is coming from the pilot circuit. The cure....is to learn how to use your throttle hand - gently roll the throttle off a bit as you shift....don't let the throttle go completely closed. When decelerating - closing the throttle completely will make the bike noisy......open up the throttle just enough to make the noise go away. |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by batman on 04/01/18 at 11:20:51 While Dave's advice is good ,but more in tune to his use of the VM carb he has installed , he is forgetting that your using the stock carb . when you close the throttle completely fuel comes from the pilot jet and transient enrichment valve. That valve opens allowing additional fuel when the throttle valve closes. Some members have in the past shortened the spring by cutting coils off one end, removing only about 1/3 of coil at a time ,allowing the valve to open earlier and close later under less vacuum. (go slowly as removing to much will allow the valve to be open all the time) This may help as you have gone to a larger and higher compression piston which requires more fuel. Keep the cut end at the outside plate so as to not damage the diaphragm. When you get to a point where the exhaust rumbles but doesn't pop your good. |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by Dave on 04/01/18 at 14:52:29 For some reason....the TEV valve just isn't able to completely eliminate the lean condition when the throttle is closed.....perhaps because it was created in a time when E10 fuel was not being used, and it may work better if you are using pure gasoline. Yes...my suggested method works well with the VM carb - but it also works with the stock carb. The popping/banging during deceleration or shifting is hardly noticeable when the stock muffler is still on the bike - the more open the muffler the more pronounced it becomes. It is interesting how differently Suzuki and Kawasaki approached the noise issue on deceleration. Suzuki chose a TEV valve that provides a bit more fuel under high vacuum conditions - while Kawasaki chose to close off the air to the pilot jets under high vacuum conditions....which also allows more fuel (and less air) to flow. (The Kawasaki method seems to work much better as it never pops/bangs - however on their forum they report the bike gets noisy when the diaphragm does bad). |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by batman on 04/01/18 at 18:12:50 I guess the question is why Chris would be running E10 with his piston being 10.5 :1 ? I'd hope he'd be running 91-93 pure gas just to avoid detonation. |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by Dave on 04/02/18 at 04:03:52 0003160F030C565A620 wrote:
I don't know about the fuel where Chris or you live......but all of our local gas stations sell E10 in 87, 89 and 91 octane, and we don't really have a way to buy fuel without ethanol.......and to make it worse all the local counties have to use reformulated fuel (Cincinnati metro area). If you want to go riding around the area and not be restricted to where you go....you have to be willing to accept the fuel that is available where/when it is time to buy fuel. If you want pure gas in this area you have to go to a marina......and the pumps are out on the docks and not easily accessible for a motorcycle. If you want fuel that is not reformulated - you have to drive outside the Cincinnati metro area. Premium E10 is not my fuel of choice and it would be great if I had a workable option - but I have never had any detonation issues when running it. I do take care to only fill up when my tank is pretty low - as the fuel in the hose of the blender pump is likely to be 87 from the previous person who used the pump. |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by batman on 04/02/18 at 08:25:15 Dave ,I can't speak for Chris but here in N.Y. 87 and 89 are E10 fuels , but 91-93 ( octane dependent on brand) is pure gas , but you shouldn't have it bad with E10 ,just a 3.33% loss in mileage. I live with the same loss in mileage ,my compression being stock, my carb is tuned for E87, using higher octane fuel doesn't change performance, it's just a waste of money. |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by Dave on 04/02/18 at 09:28:11 4D4E5B424E411B172F0 wrote:
Is that a rumor.....or you know it for sure? A local motorcycle shop swore that a Shell Station in Pendelton County didn't have ethanol in the premium fuel - so I went down to get some and I took a bottle to test it with. The truck that delivers fuel showed up while I was there - and I asked him. He confirmed that all the fuel has ethanol - the truck delivers 87 and 91 octane and both of them are E10, and the blender pump combines the two octanes to get the mid grade 89. Here is how you can test fuel to see if it has ethanol in it. http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1339974217/6#6 |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by snels516 on 04/02/18 at 09:36:22 Dave I live in NY also and at least where I am the 91 and 93 will state ethanol free right on the pump. If it doesn’t state it explicitly I assume it’s not ethanol free. Around here Stewart’s shops all have premium non ethanol so it’s on every corner. |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by Christof13T on 04/02/18 at 09:45:54 Pretty much all of the pumps in the area are stickered with 10% ethanol. I put the 93 stuff in it when it is available. The lowest it has had in it on this go around was 91. It got windy bout the same time I felt like going riding yesterday... But the weather looks great right now. I may run out and open it up real quick like on camera and get you fellas' take on how it is performing. |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by batman on 04/02/18 at 12:48:59 Dave ,I can confirm what Snels 516 said ,the pumps here are clearly marked ethanol free, A lot of people use it for motorcycles and snowmobiles and lawn equipment ,etc. but is only high octane, 87&89 are E10 |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by snels516 on 04/02/18 at 12:52:53 5A594C5559560C00380 wrote:
Did we just become best friends? |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by batman on 04/02/18 at 14:28:28 I don't know,I'm probably old enough to adopt you. :) |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by justin_o_guy2 on 04/02/18 at 17:00:12 I'm looking for a daddy and I'm house broke. |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by batman on 04/02/18 at 17:12:42 I was house broke , but then I paid off the mortgage! |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by justin_o_guy2 on 04/02/18 at 17:23:03 Tell me you didn't just intentionally fail to get it. You're Bat. |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by batman on 04/02/18 at 19:39:02 No ,I intentionally failed to confirm that I got it. |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by Christof13T on 05/05/18 at 00:00:00 7200 miles on the clock now. Averaging 45ish mpg doing mostly 45 minute stretches at 75-80mph. No quirks or hiccups. Still need to order a raptor. Been running it in prime and shutting it off manually when parked. I'm happy with how the project turned out. If anything is changed... it might be a cooshier seat, and forward controls. I ended up with a couple more lost Suzuki's that were in dire need of rescue. One is a mostly complete 1983 gs550es with the bikini box "fairing". I just about have it ready to go back together and try breathing life back into it. The other one will be a complete monstrosity. It is a 1998 gs500e with the top end of the motor, the seat, all rear plastics, carbs all missing. So I just swapped a motor out of an 05 vstar 1100... the only thing wrong with the motor is the threaded tip is broken off the output shaft of the middle drive gear. (Cheaper to replace whole unit than split the cases to rebuild. Muddle drive gear set alone is 600$. Got my customer a unit with a certified 8,125miles on it with a warranty for 900$!) For my purposes... I don't necessarily need that threaded tip. I also have this supercharger from a mercedes benz slk230 (in line 4 banger)... I'm kind of leaning in the direction of a "Super Trike". Reversed configuration with the 2 wheels up front, but maybe with a bit of a twist. I think I can pull off a leaning suspended front wheel drive. |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by batman on 05/05/18 at 08:37:57 You might think about finding an older style VW bug (not a super beetle) and using it to make a trike , it would have the advantages of side by side seating , being enclosed , and a simple box frame could be bolted to the front axle and extend to the rear to support the motorcycle power plant and it's frame from the neck back. the rear body being formed by removal of the VW fenders , and inserting a centered trailer fender /tail light. weight isn't as bad as you might think ,early bugs were oniy 36 hp and even later super beetles were 90hp ,and you'll have lost the weight of the VW motor, trans, and rear fenders. you gain the full weather/and at least 3 season use,or if you want the roof could be cut away just after the windshield and all/some side window glass removed. Controls could be a simple ratchet shifter ,throttle cable ,clutch cable, choke cable extended aft. Use of the larger VW fuel tank (about 10 gals) passenger and motor setting where the back seat was will keep weight forward which is what you want to keep this type of trike stable. |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by Christof13T on 05/05/18 at 09:27:23 I'm thinking more along the lines of a larger side by side front axle. Single rear wheel... 2 drive wheels up front. Not looking to have a passenger die with me on this monstrosity. |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by Christof13T on 06/03/18 at 05:43:42 I'm so done with this thing. 3,300 miles since the 2nd rebuild and the piece of excrement just let loose again. Knocking and rattling like a jackhammer in the crank case. It is smoking a little, but the darndest thing is that it has not lost any power... it seems to have gained power?? Before I tear it apart again and melt it down piece by piece... any bets on what failed this time? |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by Dave on 06/04/18 at 03:42:58 If the noise is hard to locate, and is horribly loud at idle but gets less at rpm - it could be the flywheel nut has come loose. That happened on my bike and it makes a horrible racket. (Doesn't explain the smoke). |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by Christof13T on 06/04/18 at 05:01:34 In addition to the smoke...Compression is at 100psi. All of the racket is coming from the head/top of the cylinder. |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by batman on 06/04/18 at 09:35:25 Duct tape on the air filter may not have been your friend, It would be hard to tell what it did to your air/fuel ratio at different rpms. |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by DragBikeMike on 06/04/18 at 20:35:02 It’s possible your tensioner might have flopped, resulting in the knocking noise, and also resulting in your cam chain slipping a tooth or two, resulting in your cam timing being dramatically retarded, resulting in your intake valve closing waaaaay late, explaining the very low compression. The smoking, who knows? It’s also possible that you experienced another piston failure. Please don’t get discouraged. We’ve all been through this. I’m 70 years old and have fried almost any part you can think of. Keep at it. There are few things in life more rewarding than building a powerful & reliable hot rod motor. You can do this. |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by Christof13T on 06/05/18 at 05:49:53 Seriously Batz? The duct tape I had restricting the intake 2k+ miles ago caused ANOTHER piston/cylinder failure? So what was the cause of failure the first 2 times? Do we want to just completely ignore all the hard numbers from this p.o.s. motor? And let's ignore completely that even while it was restricted, the duct tape covered monstrosity of a filter still had like 30% more available effective breathing surface than the RYCA filter it replaced. You really need to let the air filter duct tape experiment go. At worst it richened up the mix... for the what... 15 miles of test riding I did while it was restriced...? Tensioner... at 7k on it? Not on the build... on the motor... Total miles. It was nowhere near even thinking of getting extendy 3k miles ago. I have no doubt it toasted another piston. And with that, I have no faith left in this bike. 3 strikes... it's out of here. I have a yanmar l100 clone diesel single thumper I'm really leaning toward shoe honing into the frame and selling it to a hipster in Austin for stupid money. Use the proceeds to fund my frankenbike build. Unless somebody is interested in it as it sits. Still runs 70+... just noisy. Make me an offer. I. Am. Done. |
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Title: Re: Big Bore Bobber Build Post by DragBikeMike on 06/05/18 at 19:24:27 Oh well! Can’t change your mind, huh? I must admit the Yanmar swap sounds pretty cool. Keep us posted on that project. I had a buddy with a Yanmar in his Flika open ocean 20 footer. I must admit that little diesel never let him down. |
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