|
SuzukiSavage.com
/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> Trouble with Rotella T6? /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1505223137 Message started by Dave on 09/12/17 at 06:32:16 |
|
Title: Trouble with Rotella T6? Post by Dave on 09/12/17 at 06:32:16 Recently Shell changed the container format for the Rotella oil, and they made a few changes to the oil inside as well. The changes to the Rotella T have been somewhat minor, and it is now marketed as T4. It remains one of the best oils you can use in the Savage engine, and it most likely doesn't need any bump to the ZDDP levels, and does not have any friction modifiers so it is safe to use in a wet clutch motorcycle. Old Rotella T analysis: http://pqiadata.org/ShellRotellaT15W40.html New Rotella T4 analysis: http://pqiadata.org/Shell_Rotella_T4_15W40_4192017.html The changes to the T6 seem like they may not be good for the Savage clutch - as they have added Moly to the oil. MMRanch and Oldfeller were both long time users of the T6, and they both experienced clutch slippage and have stopped using the T6. I don't know at what ppm level the Moly causes clutch problems, and I have not yet found a listing of what is in the new T6 - hopefully that will come along soon. Old Rotella T6 analysis: http://www.pqiamerica.com/June%202014/shellrotellat6.htm The purpose of this thread is to discuss if we should stop recommending the use of T6 in the Savage. |
|
Title: Re: Trouble with Rotella T6? Post by stewmills on 09/12/17 at 06:59:35 Thanks for monitoring this, Dave. I wish I could offer some insight, but about the time of the relabeling and a previous discussion on this, I started using the T4 with 1oz/gal ZDDP and plan to stick with that, especially considering I change my oil way more frequently than the norm so I don't need the longevity of the the T6. I am interested to see if this prompts other replies of possible clutch slippage with the new T6. Based on your initial observation, I would say that the T4 should be the new recommended oil with a disclaimer that the T6 used to be recommended until the changes circa early 2017. |
|
Title: Re: Trouble with Rotella T6? Post by cygnet on 09/12/17 at 09:02:38 I'm using T6 and I'm not having any issues, as a matter of fact it seems to run smoother. My bike is new (2017 3500kms) I will keep a eye on this. |
|
Title: Re: Trouble with Rotella T6? Post by norm92de on 09/12/17 at 21:03:02 Dave, Does the new T6 have the MA rating for wet clutches? It seems strange that people are having problems with clutches. |
|
Title: Re: Trouble with Rotella T6? Post by Papa Bear on 09/13/17 at 14:36:21 On this page https://rotella.shell.com/products/t6-full-synthetic.html it says at the bottom: "OEM Specifications and Approvals for Shell ROTELLAŽ T6 full synthetic heavy duty engine oil API: CK-4, CJ-4, CI-4 PLUS, CI-4, CH-4 ACEA E9; JASO DH-2; Cummins CES 20086; Volvo VDS-4.5; Detroit Fluid Specification (DFS) 93K222, Caterpillar ECF-2/ECF-3, MAN M3575, JASO MA/MA2, Allison TES 439, MB-Approval 228." Pretty well answers that question 8-) |
|
Title: Re: Trouble with Rotella T6? Post by SALB on 11/05/17 at 15:53:33 Any updates on this topic? I'm due for an oil change, and was thinking about switching over to a synthetic to ease cold starts. (I ride through the winter when conditions permit.) I've been scouring the internet trying to find the maximum moly levels allowed in a JASO MA oil, but can't seem to find anything. Any other synthetics that might meet the specs that don't cost a fortune? |
|
Title: Re: Trouble with Rotella T6? Post by Gary_in_NJ on 11/05/17 at 17:24:05 Any motorcycle specific synthetic oil will work fine. Go to your local bike shop and they will have dozens. |
|
Title: Re: Trouble with Rotella T6? Post by Ruttly on 11/05/17 at 17:48:28 T4 with a sprinkling of ZDDP , sticking with what works and is readily available for a fair price. Thanks for the update Dave. |
|
Title: Re: Trouble with Rotella T6? Post by Papa Bear on 11/05/17 at 19:17:18 T4 for me ... forget the "sprinkles" ;) |
|
Title: Re: Trouble with Rotella T6? Post by piedmontbuckeye on 11/06/17 at 14:17:50 3832363C373E3A336D6B6F5F0 wrote:
-------------- I don't believe this is true. I think there are some motorcycle specific synthetics that are not suitable. |
|
Title: Re: Trouble with Rotella T6? Post by Gary_in_NJ on 11/06/17 at 15:07:50 Name one |
|
Title: Re: Trouble with Rotella T6? Post by SALB on 11/06/17 at 16:02:22 Without getting into ZDDP levels, the local bike shops are VERY PROUD of the stuff they sell. :o If T6 won't work, I'll just use some of the old Rotella T I still have left. |
|
Title: Re: Trouble with Rotella T6? Post by piedmontbuckeye on 11/07/17 at 13:09:45 040E0A000B02060F515753630 wrote:
------------------ Here is one, and I think there are more! Otherwise, they would be listed here on this web site, wouldn't they? There are also some that have low levels of ZDDP that shouldn't be used unless one ups the ZDDP himself. Lucas High Performance 4T Motorcycle Oil WITH MOLY is designed for NON WET APPLICATIONS I also think (as I remember when I did all my own research with the various companies) that there were some Harly V-Twin specific oils that were not compatible with wet clutches (Valvoline or something like that if my memory serves me). I know for a fact that there are some BMW specific oils that were not designed for wet clutches - but for the older dry clutches on them. |
|
Title: Re: Trouble with Rotella T6? Post by Gary_in_NJ on 11/07/17 at 18:29:55 Well yeah, you have to use an oil that is compatible with wet clutches. Name a motorcycle specific synthic oil - designed for wet clutches - that can't be used in a Savage? You can't. Rosella T4 is great because it works in our bikes at half the cost of a motorcycle specific oil. T6 use to work, and now it doesn't. So if you want to use synthetic, no problem - use a motorcycle oil. But you'll pay for the privilege. Me, I'm using T4. |
|
Title: Re: Trouble with Rotella T6? Post by piedmontbuckeye on 11/09/17 at 06:06:34 I think that the synthetics add far more lubricity than the conventional oils. And the super-synthetics (those with the natural gas base) are even better. I was informed by an oil "guru" that the supers have proven to be markedly superior to even the older synthetics and that they actually double the oil life as they provide superior lubricity and they don't break down as easily as other offerings. There are only 2 "supers" that I know of, Shell Rotella T6 & Pennzoil (the one with the blue print on the label). Both owned by Shell. However, I was told that the T6 was suitable for the Savage (by the mfg. techs whom I contacted on my own). Well . . . yeah... |
|
Title: Re: Trouble with Rotella T6? Post by norm92de on 11/09/17 at 14:05:39 I have read that a characteristic of oil that has a lot of advantages for us is the residual film that remains on the parts-read cam mechanism- and also of course the piston. Just my thoughts. |
|
Title: Re: Trouble with Rotella T6? Post by Dave on 11/10/17 at 03:14:26 0C0D100F5B500607620 wrote:
This is a benefit for any/all engines. For engines that are run regularly the a small film of oil will be on the engine parts at start up......when an engine has been in storage for a while the oil film can be gone. When I put my bikes up for the winter I use StaBil fogging oil in the cylinder to protect the piston. The head on the Savage has a little rectangular "well" under the cam that holds a small amount of oil after the engine is shut off. This allows the cam lobes to be dipped in oil as you start the engine - HOWEVER - if you leave the motorcycle sitting on the side stand.....the oil in the well is on the left side of the engine, and the exhaust cam lobe may not get dipped in any oil. It is also not good to let the bike idle while leaned over on the side stand, as it can be starved for oil. http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1447331708 The current problem with choosing a synthetic oil - is that it is hard to find the ZDDP level that most of them contain...and a lot of them have friction modifiers that can result in clutch slippage. We know that the Savage needs around 1,200 ppm of ZDDP to stay healthy, and a lot of the modern oils are manufactured with only 600-800 ppm of ZDDP to comply with the EPA requirements for engines with oxygen sensors and catalytic converters. Picking a "car" synthetic oil could be a bad move for the cam and clutch - and picking a modern synthetic motorcycle oil that is safe for the clutch may still be a problem for your cam if it does not have enough ZDDP. Nearly all oil manufacturers advise you not to add ZDDP to their oils...they believe they know what is best for you and your engine. Rotella T6 in the current mix is not approved for use in motorcycles, and some folks who have been long term users have reported they are now getting clutch slippage.......Rotella T6 may not be a good oil for your Savage anymore. The absolute "best" synthetic oils are "esther" oils. The oil has an affinity for metal at the molecular level....and it stick to the metal like glue. They are expensive to make and expensive to buy - the Maxima oil that was recommended for use in my Sherco trials motorcycle was $65 a gallon! I have no idea what the ZDDP level is in the oil to confirm it is good oil to use in the Savage. http://www.maximausa.com/product/extra4/ If someone can find an affordable synthetic motorcycle oil that has over 1,000 ppm of ZDDP (1,200 ppm would be preferred)......lets get them posted on this forum and it may be the new forum recommended synthetic replacement for the Rotella T6. (Until that time.....I am going to keep using the T4). |
|
Title: Re: Trouble with Rotella T6? Post by Dave on 11/10/17 at 04:03:09 Here is an oil test done in 2009 that has a lot of synthetic oil included - the manufacturer changes the formula pretty often recently - I don't know for sure if these test results are still valid. The good news is that a lot of the motorcycle oils had a good amount of ZDDP. http://www.oil-tech.com/amsoil-pdf-files/motorcycle-oil-comparison.pdf http://i66.tinypic.com/317flmf.jpg |
|
Title: Re: Trouble with Rotella T6? Post by piedmontbuckeye on 11/10/17 at 07:31:41 I hesitate to say this, because I don't want this to elevate into an oil war. I literally contacted a few month's ago, the tech department of Pennzoil about their new Natural Gas based oil and asked them if it would be compatible with the S40s. At the time, I wasn't aware of their connection with Shell. They wrote me back and said that the Pennzoil wasn't - however they are the ones who directed me to the Rotella T6, because they said that it WAS compatible. That it would not harm or make the clutch slip, and that it did have the 1,200 ZDDP level needed. True or not? I do not know! However, I have done what I am about to describe since I purchased my S40. I have used LUCAS oil additive (available in either dino or synthetic) in my oil mixture. I use the recommended 20% mix for all my engines - cars, lawn mowers, etc. However after conferring with the Lucas engineer on the phone, he suggested that on any wet clutch engine, change the mix to just 10%. This additive does the oil "sticking" thing, keeping the oil residue clinging to the metal parts after the engine is shut off, reducing metal wear to next to nothing as cold startups is where most wear happens. As I said, I have used this 10% mixture now for over a year in my S40, and for over 7,000 miles, in both cold (40 Degree) and hot (95 Deg.) weather, and have NEVER had any indication of clutch slippage! Period. My last oil change (after about 2,500 miles) showed the oil to look at least nearly new with no normal-to-used-oil darkening. The magnetic plug had nothing on it of any metal particulate. I am also using Dave's suggestion of 1 oz. per oil change (oops! correction: 1/2 oz. per oil change!) of the Red Line ZDDP additive which covers the ZDDP issue. I have been riding, fixing, and rebuilding motorcycles since I was 16 years old (even worked in a Honda/BMW dealership) and have literally thousands and thousands of miles of riding on many brands. I am not a neophyte to motorcycling. I just throw this out for your info. |
|
Title: Re: Trouble with Rotella T6? Post by norm92de on 11/10/17 at 07:33:50 Dave, As you know I use Mobil 1 in my bike and since Oldfeller used it for the first 50k miles that is a pretty good recommendation. As for the cost, two quarts every few thousand miles doesn't seem like a bankrupting event. I had planned to switch to Rotella but now that has changed. :'( |
|
Title: Re: Trouble with Rotella T6? Post by JLC on 11/10/17 at 08:04:52 I read that both Mobil 1 15W-50 (oil for flat tappets engines) and the Mobil 1 5-40 (for turbo diesels) had 1300 ppm (zinc content). I also read recently that T6 5W-40 had 1257 ppm. Problem is that what I read online is from 2012 or before. Can someone here point me to a site with appropriate and recent specs for the T6? PS: I am currently using T6 5W-40 with no additives. |
|
Title: Re: Trouble with Rotella T6? Post by piedmontbuckeye on 11/10/17 at 08:08:12 0E0F120D59520405600 wrote:
========== I am wondering, who discovered this T6 clutch slippage issue? Based upon what Shell told me, this shouldn't happen. I have used Mobil 1 for years and years in my cars! I believe it is superior. I now, however, want to move to the syns that are based upon Natural Gas which have even better anti-breakdown capabilities and higher lubricity and longer life. T6 is supposed to be like that. BTW, which Mobil 1 did you use in your S40? did you also use the Red Line ZDDP additive? |
|
Title: Re: Trouble with Rotella T6? Post by verslagen1 on 11/10/17 at 08:20:56 504945444D4F4E544255434B455945200 wrote:
If I recall correctly, OF and I can confirm the issue and switching to Rot T or T4 will resolve the issue after awhile. |
|
Title: Re: Trouble with Rotella T6? Post by SALB on 11/10/17 at 09:24:15 To make things even more interesting, Rotella T6 5W-30 "Multi-Vehicle" oil does not carry a JASO MA rating, while the T6 5W-40 HDEO (supposedly) does meet the JASO MA rating. And the bottles look almost identical. |
|
Title: Re: Trouble with Rotella T6? Post by norm92de on 11/10/17 at 10:30:59 PMB, I currently use Mobil 1 racing 4T 10W40 in my bike but with only 7k miles it doesn't mean very much. The tappets seem to be very stable with no measurable wear. Yet! It is the most expensive that means something doesn't it. ;D |
|
Title: Re: Trouble with Rotella T6? Post by norm92de on 11/10/17 at 11:00:26 I did call Mobil and they told me that Mobil 1 racing 4t has 1200 PPM ZDDP. I currently do not add anything to my oil.---- Don't ask me, I only work here ;D |
|
Title: Re: Trouble with Rotella T6? Post by hotrod on 11/10/17 at 11:03:44 If everyone wants the oil to be sticky and cling to parts, why not add STP ? |
|
Title: Re: Trouble with Rotella T6? Post by Dave on 11/10/17 at 11:10:06 Both Oldfeller and MMRanch were long time Rotellat T6 users...and both of them experienced clutch slippage with the new formulation - which now has more "moly" in the mix. The clutch on the Savage evidently is not overdesigned......even a small amount of friction modifier seems to have a negative affect on it's ability to grab. Youzguyz is the member who used Mobil 1 for the first 50,000 miles....then switched to Rotella T6. I don't know if he has had any clutch slippage issues. You should only be using 1/2 oz. of Redline ZDDP additive per oil change with Rotella T4........you can mix 1 oz. per gallon and not exceed the 1,400 ppm of ZDDP. |
|
Title: Re: Trouble with Rotella T6? Post by cygnet on 11/11/17 at 23:18:50 I have run T6 all summer and NO clutch slippage. Just add a little ZZP. |
|
Title: Re: Trouble with Rotella T6? Post by batman on 11/12/17 at 10:45:45 If you store oil for any length of time be aware that changes in temperature can "age "even new oil ,try to store it in a place were seasonal temperature swings do not happen. I use my basement which tends to stay 55 all year ,my garage can go front 90 in summer to as low as -25 in winter so is not suitable . |
|
Title: Re: Trouble with Rotella T6? Post by piedmontbuckeye on 11/17/17 at 08:42:53 Dave, Here is my "Proportional Grid calculating the amount of ZDDP needed for a gallon of oil based upon the 1,400 desired PPM level. I will try to explain it now: On the left side of the grid are the numbers for the proportion of 1400 PPM. This amounts to 1400 on the top and 998,600 on the bottom (1,000,000 - 1,400) On the right side, the top box is the unknown or "x" in the Algebraic equation. On the right side bottom is the amount of desired oil in ounces (in this case it is 128 ounces which = a gallon of oil) By cross multiplying you get the equation: 1,400 times 128 will = 998,600x. this then becomes the equation 998,600x = 179,200 (sides reversed) Then divide 179,200 by 998,600 and you get 0.1794512317 (this would be the amount of ounces of ZDDP needed in a gallon to equal the 1,400 PPM). This is also based upon the fact that the initial oil used had NO ZDDP in it. The ratio would be much less if one uses oil with 1200 ZDDP and one only needed to "bump" it up to 1400. Hope this makes sense. |
|
Title: Re: Trouble with Rotella T6? Post by piedmontbuckeye on 11/17/17 at 08:45:22 Oops! The pic was right side up on my computer. Please turn it upside down to read!! Sorry. I don't know how to rotate it. |
|
Title: Re: Trouble with Rotella T6? Post by Papa Bear on 11/17/17 at 09:01:31 Who said that 1400 pm is the "holy grail" for Savage oil ?? |
|
Title: Re: Trouble with Rotella T6? Post by Dave on 11/17/17 at 09:13:15 666768696A6B6C6D6E5F0 wrote:
The maximum amount of ZDDP that "should" be used is 1,400 PPM. The 1,200 that Rotella has could be be enough....and maybe even 1,000 ppm is enough. All we really know for sure.....is that 600-800 ppm is not enough as proven by damaged cam lobes and rockers. |
|
Title: Re: Trouble with Rotella T6? Post by Papa Bear on 11/17/17 at 09:21:59 I know, Dave. The 1200 in dirt cheap Rotella (T4) is quite adequate. Why feel the need to augment it? And who said that 1400 is required (should)?? .... |
|
Title: Re: Trouble with Rotella T6? Post by verslagen1 on 11/17/17 at 09:31:47 Some did a search and said excessive amounts did damage. A conscensive was reached at 1500. But really the issue centers around how much free zddp is needed to maintain a protective barrier between metallic surfaces. You might not need any more than what Rotella has if you changed often. If you wanted extended use, you would want more or would need to add some between changes. But, to find that out, you would need to do an oil analysis. |
|
Title: Re: Trouble with Rotella T6? Post by piedmontbuckeye on 11/17/17 at 10:12:51 0D0C03020100070605340 wrote:
I typed up a previous reply, but somehow got lost and not posted. I posed this same question last year when I first joined this forum, and got shellacked for asking it! However, my idea is to use pure synthetic oil as I think it is far superior to dyno oil as it has much more lubricity! In defending the status quo here, is the fact that all know we need more ZDDP than regular oils provide (as I am familiar with due to my experience with 3 older BMW Airheads). It is just the amount that is in question. Regardless, too little ZDDP is bad and too much is also bad. Also, the 2 considerations here are clutch slippage & tappet lubrication. I support the 1,400 "benchmark" as it seems to me to be purely rational and logical. I do sometimes dis-agree with the people here, but they seem to me to be more than helpful and knowledgeable. I have received a lot of good ideas from Dave, Verslagen, Oldfeller, and others. That's why I donated to the site (not enough, though) and recommend others to do so. A little spent here, can save LOTS of dollars later! |
|
Title: Re: Trouble with Rotella T6? Post by Papa Bear on 11/17/17 at 10:20:32 I'm a 12 yr member at BITOG and quite familiar with oil analysis. Rotella has been used without fail by bikers there (and over the world for that matter) for decades and well proven in UOAs over the years. I don't feel the need to reinvent the wheel. I really don't care if someone adds Lucas stuff to their oil, I just want the average rider who drops by to read the threads here to know that added ZDDP is not necessary..... that 1400 or 1500 are unproven arbitrary numbers. |
|
Title: Re: Trouble with Rotella T6? Post by piedmontbuckeye on 11/18/17 at 08:24:40 33323D3C3F3E39383B0A0 wrote:
Surely you can't ignore the overwhelming evidence that the synthetics & super-synthetics have far more lubrication ability AND their lubrication levels don't break down nearly as fast as dynos? Right? My concerns are the same as many here about the ZDDP and the clutch compatibility. I guess based upon your logic, we should all be using the same wheels Fred Flintstone used on his hot rod! hehehe ;D YES! It is good to re-invent the wheel if it makes for a better wheel !!! |
|
Title: Re: Trouble with Rotella T6? Post by SALB on 11/18/17 at 13:56:26 [/quote] I guess based upon your logic, we should all be using the same wheels Fred Flintstone used on his hot rod! hehehe ;D [/quote] Well, the savage IS just about that old! ;D Dino and Synthetic both get dirty and need changed long before the oil ever breaks down. With the possible exception of cold winter starting, I see no need to spend the extra dough on what is essentially an overgrown lawnmower. :P If I ever buy a crotch rocket that revs to 12'000 RPM, I'll start looking at Synthetics. ;) Sooo.......Dino or Synthetic is more of a personal decision. Now back to the real question. Does anyone have the data on the new T6? |
|
Title: Re: Trouble with Rotella T6? Post by JLC on 11/18/17 at 15:24:17 SALB wrote: Does anyone have the data on the new T6? I asked that question before, and got no answer. I keep looking online, but all I find are specs a few years old. |
|
Title: Re: Trouble with Rotella T6? Post by norm92de on 11/18/17 at 16:20:27 The containers that I have looked at all say MA specs. which is supposedly good for our clutches. But since I have not tried it I have to go with the feedback here. :-/ |
|
Title: Re: Trouble with Rotella T6? Post by Dave on 11/18/17 at 17:57:15 3534293662693F3E5B0 wrote:
They have increased the Moly content, and for some it has caused the clutch to slip....and these were long time T6 users. The clutch in the Savage may not be as strong as bigger/faster motorcycles, and they may have a clutch with a bit more extra holding power than the Savage has......so the new T6 may work fine in other bikes. |
|
Title: Re: Trouble with Rotella T6? Post by Papa Bear on 11/19/17 at 11:20:03 75737C3F0 wrote:
You need more info than this ?? .... https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/4490450/1/Shell_Rotella_T6_5W40_CJ-4/SM_ |
|
Title: Re: Trouble with Rotella T6? Post by JLC on 11/19/17 at 12:51:30 Thanks, very useful report, and recent (8/16/2017). So T6 5W-40 Extreme Temperature (CK4) has 1199 ppm Zinc and no Moly, while T6 5W-40 (CJ4/SM) has 1390 ppm Zinc and 71 ppm Moly. I am running CJ4 in my S40 right now. No problems with the clutch, but I might swap to the CK4 rated version of T6, with no Moly. |
|
Title: Re: Trouble with Rotella T6? Post by norm92de on 11/19/17 at 15:07:04 So it looks like the 'oil war' has taken a new turn. I'm waiting with bated breath. But will continue to breath meanwhile. ;D |
|
Title: Re: Trouble with Rotella T6? Post by Dave on 11/20/17 at 05:03:04 OK.....so you have me confused (easy to do). There are 2 different T6 bottles to choose from? I have only seen the newer style bottle in the store. |
|
Title: Re: Trouble with Rotella T6? Post by batman on 11/20/17 at 05:42:28 It took me a bit to get my head around it to Dave, it appears the CK-4 is the newer bottle ,taller and is labeled T-6 extreme temp(0n the same line),with the pics of the pickup and semi in the lower right corner and this is the one without moly, but has 1199 parts ZDDP. |
|
Title: Re: Trouble with Rotella T6? Post by JLC on 11/20/17 at 05:42:52 Yes, according to the report, and both containers are labeled as "extreme temperature". I am going to check what is available at two local WalMart stores today. I might also stop at Autozone and O'Reilly if I have time. |
|
Title: Re: Trouble with Rotella T6? Post by Gary_in_NJ on 11/20/17 at 06:21:39 This is getting interesting...making more popcorn.... |
|
Title: Re: Trouble with Rotella T6? Post by Dave on 11/20/17 at 06:55:43 I have only seen the new bottle at Tractor Supply, Autozone, etc. There is a Flying J truck stop that caters to trucks that might have the other option. |
|
Title: Re: Trouble with Rotella T6? Post by Gary_in_NJ on 11/20/17 at 08:01:10 The answer is always Amazon.... https://www.amazon.com/Shell-ROTELLA-Synthetic-Diesel-Engine/dp/B01LH7L0KS/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1511193434&sr=8-2&keywords=shell+rotella+t6&dpID=51oO-86-tBL&preST=_SY300_QL70_&dpSrc=srch |
|
Title: Re: Trouble with Rotella T6? Post by piedmontbuckeye on 11/20/17 at 08:29:28 4447524B4748121E260 wrote:
----------- What did the older bottle of T6 CJ4) look like and what was the appearance change to the CK4 bottle? I also saw the site posted by someone of the T6, but if they BOTH are labeled "Extreme Temperature how will one be sure to get the one with no moly? |
|
Title: Re: Trouble with Rotella T6? Post by Papa Bear on 11/20/17 at 10:15:51 2C353938313332283E293F373925395C0 wrote:
You're a smart guy, you'll figure it out. ;) |
|
Title: Re: Trouble with Rotella T6? Post by JLC on 11/20/17 at 12:43:53 Just checked at WalMart, Autozone, and O'Reilly. The only T6 available is the newer CK4. WalMart is on par with Amazon for price (around $20 a gallon), O'Reilly price was $29. |
|
Title: Re: Trouble with Rotella T6? Post by Papa Bear on 11/26/17 at 07:49:37 Here is PQIA's latest page on Diesel Oil HDEO information. http://pqiamerica.com/HDEO_Sample_Summary_Dec_2016.html Click on any of the oils for a VOA and description. Be sure to click on bottle back label to read if it's JASO approved You will see that Phosphorous is limited to ~1200ppm for diesel oil and ~800ppm for passenger car PCMO SN oils. http://pqiamerica.com/PCMO_Sample_Summary_12_15_2016.html Some 15W-40 oils are SN (PCMO) approved also so they will be limited to 800ppm. Be sure to pick the right oil with the right approvals They continually update their info so check back regularly. |
|
Title: Re: Trouble with Rotella T6? Post by JLC on 11/26/17 at 08:18:27 NB: The T6 on that site is the older CJ4. |
|
Title: Re: Trouble with Rotella T6? Post by Papa Bear on 11/26/17 at 09:08:35 Correct, and as I posted earlier the newer CK can be found here https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/4490450/1/Shell_Rotella_ |
|
Title: Re: Trouble with Rotella T6? Post by piedmontbuckeye on 11/27/17 at 07:57:36 0B0A05040706010003320 wrote:
On charts like this one, how does one the calculate the ZDDP level from the data shown. I see Zinc & Phosphorous listed, but how do those numbers translate into ZDDP number? |
|
Title: Re: Trouble with Rotella T6? Post by Papa Bear on 11/27/17 at 09:21:45 Very good question. One may wonder why PQIA wouldn't check the "ZDDP level" ... Further research and investigation will shine the light of truth on the issue ;) Have you ever seen "ZDDP level" shown on a chart ?? Is ZDDP the only additive to introduce Zinc & Phosphorous into the oil ?? |
|
Title: Re: Trouble with Rotella T6? Post by Gary_in_NJ on 11/27/17 at 09:41:43 I'm still a little confused after reading the report. It would appear that ZDDP is in the need region, but the Moly is high (too high) at 163. |
|
Title: Re: Trouble with Rotella T6? Post by Dave on 11/27/17 at 10:03:53 75747B7A79787F7E7D4C0 wrote:
I believe the issue is.....that the testing cannot be done with the ZDDP remaining intact. The testing process can identify the contents - but not how they were assembled. So......the amount of Zinc and Phosphorus in the oil can be determined - but not the combination as ZDDP. There likely is some way to estimate how the Zinc and Phosphorus in combination are needed to create ZDDP. And I agree Gary_in_NJ. The ZDDP level is good - but the moly is creating clutch slippage in the Savage (even though it has a MA rating). Perhaps a switch to the Kevlar clutch plates would be make this better....or worse? :-? |
|
Title: Re: Trouble with Rotella T6? Post by Papa Bear on 11/27/17 at 19:20:36 Somebody has to buy a bottle of this stuff and send a sample away for a VOA. https://www.amazon.com/Suzuki-ECSTAR-Motorcycle-Mineral-Engine/dp/B06XYTSC8V/ref=sr_1_1?s=automotive&ie=UTF8&qid=1511838078&sr=1-1&keywords=Suzuki+ECSTAR+R5000+Motorcycle Then you'll know the rule of thumb that Suzuki recommends for their motorcycles. |
|
Title: Re: Trouble with Rotella T6? Post by batman on 11/27/17 at 20:55:16 Zinc dialkyldithiophosphate -(O2 P2 S4 ZN3)"The growth of ZDDP tribofilms increases exponentially with both applied pressure and temperature"...... So go out and flog your bike ,the ZDDP will work even better! |
|
Title: Re: Trouble with Rotella T6? Post by Gyrobob on 01/14/18 at 19:35:31 Part of my stator replacement is to dump the old oil and put in some Rotella T6, because that is what I purchased several months ago. See the pics Based on these latest discussions, do I need to add any Redline oil (the stuff that has the added zddp), or just use the T6 as is? http://https://i.imgur.com/InVLG60.jpg http://https://i.imgur.com/8ZKtDJ3.jpg http://https://i.imgur.com/5joKXug.jpg |
|
Title: Re: Trouble with Rotella T6? Post by JLC on 01/14/18 at 20:26:18 You have the wrong T6, it has Moly in it, which is bad for the clutch. Look at the text box on the back of the container: it says "Meets API service CJ-4". What you want is the newer T6 oil, now widely available. In the same text box you will read "Meets API service CK-4". No need to add anything to it, it's good to go as it is. |
|
Title: Re: Trouble with Rotella T6? Post by Dave on 01/15/18 at 07:56:40 I don't believe it is necessary to add and ZDDP to T6 - but you can add a 1/2 oz per oil change if it makes you feel better. BUT - Your redline ZDDP has been sitting around for a while. Put it in a hot water bath....then shake the devil out of it and get that white crap back into the mix - or there isn't any reason to add it. I have stopped adding the Redline, as at 1/2 oz. per oil change the stuff settles out long before I can get is used up. |
|
Title: Re: Trouble with Rotella T6? Post by Gyrobob on 01/15/18 at 08:11:35 6E6867240 wrote:
=================================== Well, crud. Now I have a huge amount of T6 I can't use in the RYCA bike, and two bottles of Redline synthetic break-in oil I don't need. Thanks for the timely and useful response, though. Let's see,.... how advisable would it be to use this gallon of T6 Rotella thusly? ---- Oil change in a 2004 Yamaha FJR-1300 (wet clutch :-? ) ---- Oil change in my wife's 1999 Suzuki Grand Vitara V-6 ---- Oil change in a 1999 MTD riding mower with a 16hp B&S twin-cyl motor ---- Oil change in a backpack blower with a Honda 4-stroke motor ---- Oil change in an edger with an ancient B&S 3 hp motor ---- Mixed in with gasoline to use in 2-stroke garden equipment (heresy, I know, but when I was a teenager saving for my first two-wheeled purchase, I did this all the time for the 2-stroke lawn equipment I bought used and in the Lambretta) |
|
Title: Re: Trouble with Rotella T6? Post by Gyrobob on 01/15/18 at 08:28:17 0A313C2B3A362D2B3038352A590 wrote:
The Redline had been sitting for a year or two. I now have the bottles lying on their side, and I rotate them 180 degrees several times a week. The pink crap is mostly blended in now. The fact the pink crap even settles out bugs me a lot, because I suspect if the RYCA bike sat unused for a few weeks or more, the same thing would happen, although when I pulled the left case off for the stator replacement, I didn't see anything in the bottom of the case other than the typical thin black layer usually seen, easily removed with a little rag-rubbing. |
|
Title: Re: Trouble with Rotella T6? Post by Gary_in_NJ on 01/15/18 at 08:56:27 1C2229343934395B0 wrote:
The lawn tractor and the '99 Grand Vitara would be just fine. The Honda motor probably requires straight 30wt, same with the 3hp B&S. It will not work as a pre-mix oil. |
|
Title: Re: Trouble with Rotella T6? Post by Dave on 02/01/18 at 06:06:40 Slow morning.....so I have time to post this small tidbit. I needed an oil filter and a gallon of T6 for the Honda and went by Autozone.....Rotella T6 was $28 a gallon - same at Advance Auto. It is $22 a gallon at Tractor Supply.....and $19.28 at Walmart. I bought it at Walmart............. ;) (Somewhat weird is the 2.5 gallon jug is $53.18...which translates to $21.27 a gallon - you have to pay more to buy it in a larger jug). |
|
Title: Re: Trouble with Rotella T6? Post by piedmontbuckeye on 02/01/18 at 06:29:45 I guess I will be going to WalMart to get mine! Does WalMart sell the Savage oil filters too? Awww shucks! |
|
Title: Re: Trouble with Rotella T6? Post by Dave on 02/01/18 at 06:31:46 4E575B5A5351504A5C4B5D555B475B3E0 wrote:
Nope....they do stock some motorcycle filters - but none for the Savage. |
|
Title: Re: Trouble with Rotella T6? Post by Gary_in_NJ on 02/01/18 at 06:57:11 504945444D4F4E544255434B455945200 wrote:
I try to never buy anything from my local Suzuki dealer. When I need OEM parts I get them through amazon.com or ronayers.com |
|
Title: Re: Trouble with Rotella T6? Post by JLC on 02/01/18 at 06:59:39 I also buy T6 at Wal-Mart. If you have Amazon Prime, the K&N KN-137 filter is $6.36, the Suzuki OEM oil filter is $10, both with free two day shipping. |
|
Title: Re: Trouble with Rotella T6? Post by justin_o_guy2 on 02/01/18 at 09:54:47 https://www.denniskirk.com/303879.sku?ad=81982343330015 I have oil. Drain plug crush washers, o-rings, and next oil change I'll stock up on filters. Nothing wrong with having a years worth of filters around. Or more. Five oil changes for twenty bucks. I use these. I've studied used ones. They catch stuff. |
|
Title: Re: Trouble with Rotella T6? Post by norm92de on 02/01/18 at 10:20:52 Good info Justin. :) |
|
Title: Re: Trouble with Rotella T6? Post by Tocsik on 02/01/18 at 12:57:00 Been revisiting this thread as I'm a few hundred miles from my next oil change. The discussion has gone sideways a few times so... To put it to bed, the newer T6 has adequate ZDDP but an increase in moly which may cause the Savage clutch to slip, right? Which puts us back to using T4 or something more expensive. |
|
Title: Re: Trouble with Rotella T6? Post by Dave on 02/01/18 at 14:18:45 023935253F3D560 wrote:
No....you need to go back and re-read the thread again. The current round of T6 (CK4) is just what the Dr. ordered and is perfect for use "as-is". The previous round of T6 that was CJ4 had too much moly - you won't likely find it on any shelves anymore (although I did see a left over bottle of it at Advance Auto). |
|
Title: Re: Trouble with Rotella T6? Post by piedmontbuckeye on 02/01/18 at 14:29:49 Dave, you can't possibly imagine how much I appreciate you and your knowledge and input. |
|
Title: Re: Trouble with Rotella T6? Post by Tocsik on 02/01/18 at 17:17:30 33080512030F141209010C13600 wrote:
No....you need to go back and re-read the thread again. The current round of T6 (CK4) is just what the Dr. ordered and is perfect for use "as-is". The previous round of T6 that was CJ4 had too much moly - you won't likely find it on any shelves anymore (although I did see a left over bottle of it at Advance Auto).[/quote] Dagnabbit! I thought I mighta had it figgered out, but that's why I axed! Thanks man. |
|
Title: Re: Trouble with Rotella T6? Post by Papa Bear on 02/02/18 at 05:19:25 Look for the JASO approval |
|
Title: Re: Trouble with Rotella T6? Post by Dave on 02/02/18 at 05:54:28 262728292A2B2C2D2E1F0 wrote:
That isn't always suitable for the Savage engine.....some of the JASO approved oils have a low ZDDP level. |
|
Title: Re: Trouble with Rotella T6? Post by piedmontbuckeye on 02/02/18 at 06:32:09 I have to admit (and I am a near Master's Degreed person!) that I followed this thread when it first began, and had a really difficult time sorting out which was being talked about - CJ or CK as the discussion went back and forth. I trust Dave's interpretation, though! |
|
Title: Re: Trouble with Rotella T6? Post by hotrod on 02/02/18 at 08:37:52 I sorted it out well , and I have a G.E.D. degree. |
|
Title: Re: Trouble with Rotella T6? Post by piedmontbuckeye on 02/02/18 at 08:47:17 5E777B7B736427160 wrote:
Wow! I'm impressed! |
|
SuzukiSavage.com » Powered by YaBB 2.2! YaBB © 2000-2007. All Rights Reserved. |