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SuzukiSavage.com
/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> Turns over doesn't start, carb cleaned has spark /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1504652490 Message started by Chaz on 09/05/17 at 16:01:30 |
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Title: Turns over doesn't start, carb cleaned has spark Post by Chaz on 09/05/17 at 16:01:30 I got this 1995 Suzuki Savage last night knowing it wasn't starting. I assumed I would just have to clean the carb and get a new petcock for it because it was using the old factory one and it was pretty gucked up. So I spent a couple hours cleaning the carb and I put my other tank on it until I can get a raptor petcock in for its tank. I went to start the bike, and it still doesn't start up. I recorded a video of me trying to start it. https://youtu.be/iM1ipd5UW_U The bike does have spark, and unless I didn't do a very good job, which I'm pretty sure I did, the carb is cleaned and it should be getting gas. One thing I did notice though is how loud it clicks when you first try and start it, my other savage isn't as loud. Also, if you put it into first, and give it a good hard push, you can hear the piston move, but on my other (working) savage, it's much harder, nearly impossible to push it when its in gear, without dragging the tire that is. Any ideas or suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Thanks |
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Title: Re: Turns over doesn't start, carb cleaned has spa Post by justin_o_guy2 on 09/05/17 at 22:07:52 The bowl is empty after you cleaned it. Put the petcock on prime. There is nothing wrong with shooting some ether in a motor to get it kicked off. If the battery isn't hot, it can spin the motor, but not fire the ignition. |
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Title: Re: Turns over doesn't start, carb cleaned has spa Post by batman on 09/05/17 at 22:44:35 If it seems easier to push ,you may want to check the decomp adjustment ,it may be holding the exhaust valves open all the time. did you use fogging oil ? that will help raise compression and protect the piston/cylinder from being damaged. |
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Title: Re: Turns over doesn't start, carb cleaned has spa Post by SALB on 09/06/17 at 11:24:48 2A293C2529267C70480 wrote:
Agreed. If the decomp is good, also check the valves for tight (read open) adjustment. |
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Title: Re: Turns over doesn't start, carb cleaned has spa Post by justin_o_guy2 on 09/06/17 at 13:36:46 If you checked the spark without a plug in the head, you don't know if it's able to spark AND make compression. If you don't Know what the battery voltage is While the starter motor is running, you could be chasing a ghost. |
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Title: Re: Turns over doesn't start, carb cleaned has spa Post by Chaz on 09/06/17 at 18:44:17 67647168646B313D050 wrote:
How do I check the decomp adjustment? |
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Title: Re: Turns over doesn't start, carb cleaned has spa Post by Gary_in_NJ on 09/06/17 at 18:55:05 A compression test would be conclusive. A leak down test would be best. |
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Title: Re: Turns over doesn't start, carb cleaned has spa Post by justin_o_guy2 on 09/06/17 at 19:05:32 Put it in third. Push. |
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Title: Re: Turns over doesn't start, carb cleaned has spa Post by Chaz on 09/06/17 at 20:08:04 3E2127203D3A0B3B0B33212D66540 wrote:
I'll try that tomorrow. Right now it's kind of torn apart. I was following this guide: http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1325991352 And I got to the part where it needs a "feeler gauge", I don't have one of those. Would a spark plug gap opener work as a feeler gauge, or should I order one? I'm almost positive the clearance is too loose. |
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Title: Re: Turns over doesn't start, carb cleaned has spa Post by justin_o_guy2 on 09/06/17 at 23:14:40 Usually when stuff suddenly gets complicated, it's not actually busted. You worked on it. Why? It's time to Slow Down. Go back and look at the simplest things. You haven't proven it's getting spark. And if it is, you don't have to check compression, squirt ether in the intake. You're not sounding really ready to be checking the valve lash but it's time. Loose is okay. Let's get it running without adding any more places where you have been working. Did you put it on prime? |
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Title: Re: Turns over doesn't start, carb cleaned has spa Post by Chaz on 09/06/17 at 23:39:34 46595F5845427343734B59551E2C0 wrote:
I did pull the plug and make sure the plug was sparking outside of the engine, thats why I figured it might be a compression issue. I'm using a raptor petcock on the "on" position, I don't wanna bother with the old petcock so I'm just borrowing my other bikes tank until I get another raptor petcock. I'll pick up some ether tomorrow on my way home from work. I've never actually used ether, how much or how little do I squirt into it? And do I squirt it directly into the cylinder where the carb usually connects? I know I sound like a major newb, I'm trying my best to learn, I guess I've gotta start somewhere. |
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Title: Re: Turns over doesn't start, carb cleaned has spa Post by justin_o_guy2 on 09/07/17 at 01:28:55 You proved it Will spark, IF the battery voltage is good. But you didn't prove it will spark WHILE the battery is spinning it over AND it's shoving the piston into the compression stroke. Don't Do anything to anything until you do that. And I'm not unhappy about your being a newbie. Everyone is at some point. But, this is getting old. I pointed this out before you started with the wrenches and you didn't answer it. I'll do my best to help you, but don't ignore the first steps. |
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Title: Re: Turns over doesn't start, carb cleaned has spa Post by Fast 650 on 09/07/17 at 11:56:30 I have another thing for him to check, but seeing that he is still in the early learning stages I won't post what it is until we know everything else is right first. I ran into it on an Intruder last week. Same symptoms, good spark, gets fuel, and good compression. And it stumped a bunch of mechanics that couldn't figure it out. Simple to fix once I found it, but I fear that it would confuse him terribly if I tell him what to check right now. |
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Title: Re: Turns over doesn't start, carb cleaned has spa Post by justin_o_guy2 on 09/07/17 at 12:20:26 Let's go through the most common things first. They don't require much mechanical experience. |
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Title: Re: Turns over doesn't start, carb cleaned has spa Post by Chaz on 09/07/17 at 19:02:05 415E585F42457444744C5E52192B0 wrote:
The voltage when the ignition is off is 12.12, voltage when ignition is on is about 11.80, voltage when the engine is trying to turn over is about 9.50. How do I prove its sparking while the spark plug is in the cylinder? I think that's what you meant. Anyways, I went back to one of your other suggestions and sprayed ether into it. I've never used ether and I googled it and it said to spray it directly into the air intake for no more than 3 seconds. I tried firing it up after and it made a really loud pop and started smoking out of the flywheel adjustor hole, I forgot I had left it open. |
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Title: Re: Turns over doesn't start, carb cleaned has spa Post by justin_o_guy2 on 09/07/17 at 19:21:51 gine is trying to turn over is about 9.50. How do I prove its sparking while the spark plug is in the cylinder? I think that's what you You won't prove it's firing. It's not gonna. But, you Can pull the plug wire, shove a plug in it, ground it, hit start. Won't fire Battery low. Start with the most common, easiest problem that can create the symptoms you're seeing |
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Title: Re: Turns over doesn't start, carb cleaned has spa Post by Chaz on 09/07/17 at 19:41:00 2A353334292E1F2F1F27353972400 wrote:
I pulled the plug and tested the spark while grounding it and it has spark, then I put the spark plug back in and tested the spark with a second plug so it kept its compression and it still sparks. I recorded a video, its a little dark though. https://youtu.be/cZhhWlIGM-k |
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Title: Re: Turns over doesn't start, carb cleaned has spa Post by justin_o_guy2 on 09/07/17 at 20:38:23 That's some right up work, dude. Thing is, I can't hear the snap, can't see the fire, and the way I expected it to be was pretty much zero. I don't know if that spark will life one off. The voltage is supposed to be over ten. I don't remember what someone said it needs to be exactly. But that's Definitely a blue arc, You've heard it spinning without a plug. And with. Can you hear a distinct rhythm? If you have compression the engine loads the starter on compression. |
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Title: Re: Turns over doesn't start, carb cleaned has spa Post by Chaz on 09/07/17 at 20:47:51 67787E7964635262526A78743F0D0 wrote:
Now that I think of it, I'm pretty sure it sounds the same with and without the spark plug in the cylinder. I'll have to test that again but I'm pretty sure it sounds the same. |
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Title: Re: Turns over doesn't start, carb cleaned has spa Post by justin_o_guy2 on 09/07/17 at 21:23:41 It otta not.. Oil in the plug hole is the cheapest easiest quick check. Hit start Listen Pull plug Hit start Listen If you don't hear a distinct rhythm of the starter add oil in the cylinder, leaving the plug out, in gear, push, prove it'll turn over, then hit the starter, Could be messy, might wanna rag over the hole. Might foul the plug,, Have you proven fuel in the bowl? Since you worked on the carburetor, are you sure it's working? Once you have compression, if it doesn't fire,use ether. The battery needs charged. At rest 12.4 or five is good. |
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Title: Re: Turns over doesn't start, carb cleaned has spa Post by zipidachimp on 09/08/17 at 21:33:09 Charge the battery. At 13+ volts, Hit the ignition. World of difference! 8-) |
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Title: Re: Turns over doesn't start, carb cleaned has spa Post by Chaz on 09/09/17 at 18:53:15 5C4345425F5869596951434F04360 wrote:
How much oil should I put down the plug hole? I'm assuming like a small cap full of oil or two? I charged the battery yesterday, put it back in the bike, it had 12.45 volts, sprayed some ether in the back of the carb where the air intake hose usually connects, and tried to start it up. It still didn't wanna start up unfortunately. I also noticed, this bike only has 1600 miles on it, so I would assume the piston and everything should be good. |
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Title: Re: Turns over doesn't start, carb cleaned has spa Post by justin_o_guy2 on 09/09/17 at 19:05:18 The engine has been sitting long enough to let the oil disappear from the rings and cylinder wall. Fogging oil is available, but I'd put some oil in and put it in gear and roll it, no spark plug. Just a little oil, enough to get around the piston and wet the wall. If you want to avoid the chance of screwing yourself , buy the fogging oil. |
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Title: Re: Turns over doesn't start, carb cleaned has spa Post by batman on 09/09/17 at 22:10:03 You might try jumper cables and a car battery (car not running).fuel,compression, & spark = start ,your missing one of the three. |
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Title: Re: Turns over doesn't start, carb cleaned has spa Post by Chaz on 09/10/17 at 23:48:23 746B6D6A7770417141796B672C1E0 wrote:
I went out and got some fogging oil and sprayed some down the plug hole. Then I went ahead and adjusted the valves because I picked up a feeler gauge while I was out, they ended up being way too tight. Then I decided to pull the carb off completely and look into the side of the cylinder where the carb connects, and I noticed a bunch of small metal shavings. At this point I'm figuring it's the piston ring. Because I have spark, and I have gas/starter fluid, but I don't think I have compression. |
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Title: Re: Turns over doesn't start, carb cleaned has spa Post by justin_o_guy2 on 09/11/17 at 00:00:47 Dude, the air/fuel mix leaves the carburetor and goes into the head where valves open and close. You can't see the piston. |
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Title: Re: Turns over doesn't start, carb cleaned has spa Post by Chaz on 09/11/17 at 00:21:07 3B242225383F0E3E0E36242863510 wrote:
I know, you can only see the valves.. but thats not the point, there is metal shavings inside of the cylinder. I think it might be the piston ring. |
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Title: Re: Turns over doesn't start, carb cleaned has spa Post by justin_o_guy2 on 09/11/17 at 06:53:29 How much of the fogging oil did you use? Did you ever get it running? How are you finding the metal shavings? Do you know anyone who has a scope and can peek into the cylinder? The rings And cylinder will eat each other without oil. It's a bummer watching people find us After they have so busily set about trying to start one, especially after so many years of sitting. IF you have compression it should sound different from one without when the starter is spinning it over. The compression stroke slows the starter motor and creates a rhythm. The beauty of it all is This stuff will fix. But if you don't have compression, let's try something, Put enough oil in the cylinder to cover the piston, put it in gear and roll it. How certain are you that you got TDC Compression when you adjusted the valves? Are you sure the decompression lever isn't holding a valve open? It's okay to do things that won't be left that way when you ride it. You can leave the tank off and unhook the decompression solenoid, if you are in any way uncertain about the valves being closed when they need to be you can open the adjustment. You have to know if it's making compression and if not, why not. How much time have the rings been going up and down the cylinder without oil? |
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Title: Re: Turns over doesn't start, carb cleaned has spa Post by Chaz on 09/11/17 at 13:22:55 392620273A3D0C3C0C34262A61530 wrote:
1. No, I haven't gotten it to run yet. I did however get it to pop/backfire once, but that was when I accidentally left the flywheel plug/screw off the cover (Yeah I know, rookie mistake, I was really tired). But with it on, it won't make any pops. When it made that pop/backfire out of the flywheel cover, it also threw up oil out of the hole. http://i.imgur.com/mppNPJ1.jpg 2. I found the metal shavings in the fuel/intake hole where the carb connects, I should've taken a picture but I have already wiped the shavings out of the fuel/intake hole. 3. I don't, I suppose I could order one. 4. I'm certain that the bike was set to TDC when I adjusted the valves. 5. I'm not 6. I did an oil change as soon as I bought the bike, but when I drained it, it was pretty low on oil. 392620273A3D0C3C0C34262A61530 wrote:
I did that before I tried starting it last night to make sure the piston was all lubed up, I sprayed a good amount of fogging oil in it. |
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Title: Re: Turns over doesn't start, carb cleaned has spa Post by justin_o_guy2 on 09/11/17 at 21:13:22 You need to eliminate every possible way that a valve could be held open. The decompression lever needs to be checked Disconnect the decompression solenoid too And unless you are 100% certain your valves are right, you might try loosening them off if the decompression doesn't solve it. Ohhh, you can put it at TDC and put air in the cylinder. Pull the oil fill plug. If air comes out you have a Hole in your piston. |
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Title: Re: Turns over doesn't start, carb cleaned has spa Post by Chaz on 10/13/17 at 22:36:55 Just thought I'd give an update and go ahead and send this thread to its grave. I took a break from the bike and worked on some of my other projects. I ordered a camera to go down the spark plug hole, and this is what I saw. http://https://i.imgur.com/E5LovCV.jpg The bike has 1,490 miles so I don't even know how they managed to do this. So I'm gonna do some research on rebuilding it before I start tearing it apart, or I might just sell it as is, I've got too many projects right now. I'd like to thank everyone who helped me, I learned so much. |
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Title: Re: Turns over doesn't start, carb cleaned has spa Post by Dave on 10/14/17 at 05:51:08 YIKES! They don't get too much uglier than that (except when they drop an exhaust valve). If the rest of the bike is in good shape......it is worth fixing. Where are you located? It could be that somebody around you might have the engine parts (or an engine) that you need to get this going. |
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Title: Re: Turns over doesn't start, carb cleaned has spa Post by LANCER on 10/15/17 at 01:58:41 You may just need a piston and a hone of the cylinder, as long as the head is ok. It is worth a look to pull the head and see what it all looks like in the light of day. |
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Title: Re: Turns over doesn't start, carb cleaned has spa Post by Dave on 10/15/17 at 03:53:40 If your want to do it up right.....this is the perfect time to get one of these! http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1492976281 |
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Title: Re: Turns over doesn't start, carb cleaned has spa Post by justin_o_guy2 on 10/15/17 at 08:19:55 So few miles and a hole? That's unheard of.. I'm guessing it didn't have much of a rhythm when it was spinning over and rolling it in gear wouldn't be held back by compression, but who knows what resistance is in that screwed up mess? Eegore was gonna tell us about a problem and solution. I had discounted the possibility of a hole, so I didn't mention blowing in the plug hole and seeing if it came out the oil fill. I wonder how much suction it's creating on intake. Probably around zero. |
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Title: Re: Turns over doesn't start, carb cleaned has spa Post by Chaz on 10/15/17 at 14:19:54 5B606D7A6B677C7A6169647B080 wrote:
I'm located in Las Vegas, NV. Here is a picture of the bike. I have the front fender for it and sissy bar, just not put on. I think the only thing it's really missing is its chrome battery cover. http://https://i.imgur.com/Gzpo9XP.jpg If anyone is interested, I have the clean title in my name, may be interested in selling it, otherwise I'll rebuild it after I finish my truck. May be interested in parts to fix it or a whole engine depending on what someones asking for it. |
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Title: Re: Turns over doesn't start, carb cleaned has spa Post by Dave on 10/15/17 at 15:12:58 Too far away from KY for me to be of any kind of help in person. It is not that difficult of a job - and it would help to know why it did this, and what kind of shape the cam/rocker/valves are in. It is a tough thing to decide what to do when they are in this shape. If you want the bike it can be fixed up - but you could also sell it and look for one that doesn't need this much work. If you want to hop one up with a Wiseco......this is the perfect bike for the project. |
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Title: Re: Turns over doesn't start, carb cleaned has spa Post by justin_o_guy2 on 10/15/17 at 15:50:09 Or Get an engine Swap them out Ride. And build your busted one up. |
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