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Message started by IslandRoad on 07/18/17 at 23:25:27

Title: A polemic (and a plea) - metric v imperial
Post by IslandRoad on 07/18/17 at 23:25:27

Honestly, I love you all, and I admire your mental dexterity, but seriously, we need to talk.

When are you guys gonna get onto the metric system?

Here’s the back story to this polemic: My boss has an old lathe in the corner of the workshop. I asked him “If I look up on YouTube how to use a lathe can I have a go in my own time?” (I need some spacers for the bike) He said “Sure, as long as you look up safety aspects of using a lathe too”. Job done. So, I get on the lathe ... try to dial in my measurements. darn Imperial! ... and (I’m pretty sure) it was in metric increments of imperial measurements! I ended up using my (metric) Vernier Callipers to measure the job as I go.

The thing is, you guys already use metric anyway. What advice do you give newcomers about the white spacer mod? – 0.5 to 0.6 of the original size. In the specs you convert the original mm to inches, then give a metric version of the inches. You know why? ... because you don’t have a fraction for the job.
I’ve seen discussions about the correct internal diameter for the fuel line. Is it ¼” or 5/16”? ... you know what? It’s neither. The OEM spec is 7mm ... and you don’t have a fraction for that either!

You guys can launch a reusable rocket into space for heaven’s sake! You’ve done it many, many times. Do you think the control centre says “OK, we need to move the shuttle 5/16ths of a Roman thumb to the left, and 4/32nds of a Roman thumb to the North”? Of course not, you use metric when it really matters.

Let’s take it further. Do you know what 1 litre of water weighs – 1 Kilogram. And water freezes at zero. Every step above zero gets progressively better, and every step below zero gets progressively worse. It’s all tens, tens, and more tens.

Second back story:

I made a bracket to relocate my rear turn signals. I want to make a tech drawing for anyone on this site who might find it useful. It’s in millimetres. I thought, that’s ok. I’ll do an imperial version too ... but you guys don’t have “fractions of Roman thumbs” to match my measurements. So, I either convert to inches, then apply metric increments – or I look up some old-school chart to find the nearest fraction – which will be incorrect.

Unlike my country, one of your biggest advancements was your break from the British Empire. But you know what ... even the Empire has moved on from Roman thumbs!

Come on guys, help me out.
Tell me ONE good thing about imperial measurements.

Title: Re: A polemic (and a plea) - metric v imperial
Post by jcstokes on 07/19/17 at 02:25:39

You need imperial things to service antique/vintage American cars and bikes. UNC is the same as Whitworth, except for the half inch bolt threads, so a lot of old Pom stuff is covered. UNF is fine for fine threads. At least the Yanks don't have to deal with BSF and BA, which were designed by the British to upset people. Americans, keep your threads as they are.

Title: Re: A polemic (and a plea) - metric v imperial
Post by Dave on 07/19/17 at 04:57:02

There was a big push to convert the US to the metric system in the late 70's - in my college engineering classes we had to learn to solve problems in both systems. Highway signs started listing the miles and kilometers, car speedometer had both mph and kph shown.

For some reason that has all disappeared, and I don't believe there is any plans on continuing the changeover. About the only metric stuff I see anymore is on the containers for liquids...soda bottles, soap, etc.

If you want your lathe experience to be easier...buy a set of calipers that matches the lathe (and a calculator to convert your metric to decimal inches).

Title: Re: A polemic (and a plea) - metric v imperial
Post by LANCER on 07/19/17 at 05:05:29

I have no issue using either metric or our standard foot/inch system when working on a bike or car or whatever, but for just the run of the mill daily stuff it is the US Standard that I grew up with. Keep in mind that the "Baby Boomer" generation in the US is still dominant and we grew up with feet, inches, pounds & ounces, so that is what we use unless absolutely necessary. It works for us.

Title: Re: A polemic (and a plea) - metric v imperial
Post by Papa Bear on 07/19/17 at 05:39:14

"The French originated the meter in the 1790s as one/ten-millionth of the distance from the equator to the north pole along a meridian through Paris. It is realistically represented by the distance between two marks on an iron bar kept in Paris."

Right on - let's go with a French whimsy ... so much better than a thumb :P

Title: Re: A polemic (and a plea) - metric v imperial
Post by Tocsik on 07/19/17 at 05:42:12

I've worked in medicine for over 30 years and we have always used metric measurements. My son graduated form a chemical biological engineering program a few years back and he can only think in metric.
But, it's a really big country with a lot of people. Change isn't easy for some. Particularly if it isn't impacting them directly ore frequently.

Title: Re: A polemic (and a plea) - metric v imperial
Post by Dave on 07/19/17 at 05:52:07

Island Road has stumbled across one of the reasons that makes it difficult to change over from inches to metric......there are hundreds of thousands of machining tools that are using inches all over the US, and a lot of this equipment has many, many years of functional life remaining.

Title: Re: A polemic (and a plea) - metric v imperial
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 07/19/17 at 06:47:40

I was doing body and mechanic work in the seventies and eighties. It took a keen eye and caused frustration, trying to decide, is that a 1/2", or twelve mm? Manufacturers used a mix of metric and inch , and boy duzzat sukk.

British Thermal Unit (BTU) is the amount of heat energy needed to raise the temperature of one pound of water by one degree F.

Seems odd to me.. BriTish thermal unit,
A Pound of water, nawt a kilogram, raised one degree Fahrenheit.

I don't care what system gets used. I can convert mentally km to miles, pounds to kilo, and I can find the right wrench.. but mixing fasteners on a car is just Dummernshitt.

Title: Re: A polemic (and a plea) - metric v imperial
Post by Ruttly on 07/19/17 at 07:01:30

As a wrench I find the metric system too easy,even boring. Not much there to to keep you sharp at math & conversions. Now being forced to know both and their conversions and needing to use both in my job keeps my old brain active.

Title: Re: A polemic (and a plea) - metric v imperial
Post by stewmills on 07/19/17 at 07:59:33

Yeah, I like tools but having both makes me have two sets of everything (sockets, measuring devices, etc.). I like tools, but dangit my tool chest is getting cramped.

Screw it...I have recently incorporated a new town and we're going to have our own measurement system called stewmeters.

Title: Re: A polemic (and a plea) - metric v imperial
Post by Dave on 07/19/17 at 08:09:33

3A3D2C3E242025253A490 wrote:

Screw it...I have recently incorporated a new town and we're going to have our own measurement system called stewmeters.

I am almost afraid to ask what the "reference standard" is based on. Seems the thumb, forearm, foot, outstretched arms and hand have already been used.

Title: Re: A polemic (and a plea) - metric v imperial
Post by verslagen1 on 07/19/17 at 08:14:29

Awe come on... you really want to get rid of a system with units like slugs and snails?!?

And they charge you more for liters... the hell with that!

So what a couple of space ships crashed into the backside of mars.

Title: Re: A polemic (and a plea) - metric v imperial
Post by ohiomoto on 07/19/17 at 08:28:19

714A4750414D56504B434E51220 wrote:

[quote author=3A3D2C3E242025253A490 link=1500445527/0#9 date=1500476373]Screw it...I have recently incorporated a new town and we're going to have our own measurement system called stewmeters.

-----------

I am almost afraid to ask what the "reference standard" is based on. Seems the thumb, forearm, foot, outstretched arms and hand have already been used.
[/quote]-----------------------

Probably something very very small. :-?

But they say size doesn't matter...

Title: Re: A polemic (and a plea) - metric v imperial
Post by IslandRoad on 07/19/17 at 09:20:54

So, Imperial is good for keeping the mind active, working on old stuff, and using old machines?! ... what was I complaining about? ;D

The thing is, by hanging around this forum I've started to think in Imperail automatically. I find myself doing the mental calculations at the hardware store - "One inch is about 25 mm, 1/4 of 25 is about 6 something, 1/4 = 6-7 mm", "5/16 is a bit more than 1/4 .... " :o

It's like learning a new language by living in a different country. You start to interact with people, exchanging social niceties, even though you don't know what you're actually saying.

Title: Re: A polemic (and a plea) - metric v imperial
Post by IslandRoad on 07/19/17 at 09:30:47

Australia changed to metric in the late 60's, just before my time. So I grew up hearing inches and feet while learning metric. When I played football as a kid, I remember the coach setting us up for a drill. He said "You're gonna run down there for about twenty yards, then turn around ...." I had NO idea how far I was supposed to run! I just ran to where I thought he was pointing.

Buying timber is fun. We still use the term 4 x 2. I assume it's 4" x 2". Which is about 100 mm x 50 mm. But (of course) that's the rough cut size. After it's dressed it's nearer to 90 mm x 45 mm.

I have to admit, there is something more "colorful" about using Imperial. I feel like I'm being initiated into a club. And it's satisfying being able to talk the talk with some old biker or machinist who is giving me advice.

You don't get that with metric - once you know the one rule (divide by ten) you're good to go.

Title: Re: A polemic (and a plea) - metric v imperial
Post by stewmills on 07/19/17 at 09:41:08

576D727F707A4C717F7A1E0 wrote:

Buying timber is fun. We still use the term 4 x 2. I assume it's 4" x 2". Which is about 100 mm x 50 mm. But (of course) that's the rough cut size. After it's dressed it's nearer to 90 mm x 45 mm.

Yeah, that is one stupid thing we do. Thankfully I get it because my dad was a contractor, but how many do it yourself folks here in the states goes and buys a 2 x 4 and pre-cuts their materials only to wonder why everything is 1/2" off? They should either let the darn things dry to 2"x 4" or call them 1.5" x 3.5". Doesn't roll off the tongue as nicely as "two by four" but at least everyone knows they are buying a "one and a half by three and a half".

I am surprised on one has tried a class action lawsuit claiming that the lumber industry undersold them by half an inch based on the name of the product.

Title: Re: A polemic (and a plea) - metric v imperial
Post by IslandRoad on 07/19/17 at 09:50:28

46415042585C595946350 wrote:

...

Screw it...I have recently incorporated a new town and we're going to have our own measurement system called stewmeters.

So can I buy a Stew-ometer online? Or will they only be available by mail-order from the back page of a comic book? :)

Title: Re: A polemic (and a plea) - metric v imperial
Post by jcstokes on 07/19/17 at 13:18:45

Island Road, you could always search Aussie EBAY for imperial micrometers and calipers.

Title: Re: A polemic (and a plea) - metric v imperial
Post by Papa Bear on 07/19/17 at 13:37:25

I have a good set of BSW tools for sale from my 1965 BSA Lightning Rocket

Title: Re: A polemic (and a plea) - metric v imperial
Post by verslagen1 on 07/19/17 at 14:08:04

181916171415121310210 wrote:

I have a good set of BSW tools for sale from my 1965 BSA Lightning Rocket

I ought to put you in touch with my brother... he's restored my dad's BSA Gold Star powered side hack.
http://www.savageriders.com/verslagen/images/dads86.jpg
http://www.savageriders.com/verslagen/SideCarRalley/dad&pat-ascot-tt.jpg

Title: Re: A polemic (and a plea) - metric v imperial
Post by IslandRoad on 07/19/17 at 14:19:24

686171766D696771020 wrote:

Island Road, you could always search Aussie EBAY for imperial micrometers and calipers.

Title: Re: A polemic (and a plea) - metric v imperial
Post by verslagen1 on 07/19/17 at 14:30:35

0E342B26292315282623470 wrote:

[quote author=686171766D696771020 link=1500445527/15#17 date=1500495525]Island Road, you could always search Aussie EBAY for imperial micrometers and calipers.

I've got a digital set of calipers that show either with the touch of a button [ch9786]

It just frys my head doing conversions for drawings - if I try to use standard fractional sizes. 0.21 of an inch (or something like that) is kinda useless when recommending which bolts to buy :o
[/quote]
I'm an engineer, so this sort of thing comes natural to me. And I'd say, don't worry about it, let the 'user beware' and adjust the values to his taste. And as you said, digital calipers have inch/mm conversion on them. And except for bolts, I wouldn't convert anyway, metric bolts on a metric bike unless I'm using a sheet metal screw. Then #4's don't convert, just use an M3. 8-)

Title: Re: A polemic (and a plea) - metric v imperial
Post by Serowbot on 07/19/17 at 14:37:32

I rode to Tubac on I-19 today...
It's the only US highway marked in km's... and, it has a roundabout!...
Cool!... :)

from Wiki...

Quote:

I-19 is unique among US Interstates, because signed distances are given in meters (hundreds or thousands as distance-to-exit indications) or kilometers (as distance-to-destination indications), and not miles. However, the speed limit signs give speeds in miles per hour. According to the Arizona Department of Transportation (ADOT), metric signs were originally placed because of the push toward the metric system in the United States at the time of the original construction of the highway

http://https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/59/Metric_Interstate_19.jpg/800px-Metric_Interstate_19.jpg

Title: Re: A polemic (and a plea) - metric v imperial
Post by IslandRoad on 07/19/17 at 14:51:19

746770716E6365676C33020 wrote:

[quote author=0E342B26292315282623470 link=1500445527/15#20 date=1500499164][quote author=686171766D696771020 link=1500445527/15#17 date=1500495525]Island Road, you could always search Aussie EBAY for imperial micrometers and calipers.

Title: Re: A polemic (and a plea) - metric v imperial
Post by verslagen1 on 07/19/17 at 15:03:01

Somewhere in the twilight zone...

6472657860757863170 wrote:

I rode to Tubac on I-19 today...
It's the only US highway marked in km's... and, it has a roundabout!...
Cool!... :)

from Wiki...

Quote:

http://https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/59/Metric_Interstate_19.jpg/800px-Metric_Interstate_19.jpg

Title: Re: A polemic (and a plea) - metric v imperial
Post by verslagen1 on 07/19/17 at 15:06:43

6A504F424D47714C4247230 wrote:

I guess I'm trying to be too helpful 8-)

No good deed goes unpunished ;D

Title: Re: A polemic (and a plea) - metric v imperial
Post by gizzo on 07/19/17 at 15:56:31

Nice one IR :)
Here's some more helpfully confusing info:
40 thousandths of an inch (.040) make up 1mm. So that's easy.
Some metric and imperial tools can substitute for one another in the privacy of your own shed.
5/16 = 8mm
7/16 = 11mm
9/16 = 14mm
11/16= 17mm
3/4 = 19mm
15/16 = 24mm

The in between sizes, you're on your own. 1/2 isn't quite 13mm.

And you can buy flank drive tools now that work on metric and imperial fasteners both.

I'm ok with using imperial: My old cars were imperial, I worked as a diesel mechanic on American stuff (also imperial) and my other sport measures in MPH only, so I'm ok using that, too. I do prefer imperial pints over American ones though. Which makes me wonder whether the American one should be considered a "metric" pint? :P

Title: Re: A polemic (and a plea) - metric v imperial
Post by Todd James on 07/19/17 at 22:45:05

stewmills wrote:

"I am surprised no one has tried a class action lawsuit claiming
that the lumber industry undersold them by half an inch based
on the name of the product."

Actually, there was a class action lawsuit filed just last month
for exactly that reason:

http://www.woodworkingnetwork.com/news/woodworking-industry-news/home-depot-menards-under-fire-over-lumber-sizes

Title: Re: A polemic (and a plea) - metric v imperial
Post by Gary_in_NJ on 07/20/17 at 10:29:56

I've been working on my own bikes since 1973 when I was just 10 years old. My first tool kit was the one Suzuki put in the vinyl pouch hidden in the side cover of my TS-50. Since this was my first introduction to mechanics I had no problem learning and adapting to the metric system (I didn't have to unlearn another system). Then later in life all of my early cars were of Japanese origin...and my metric tool collection continued to build.

Fast forward to 1989 when I began to build an airplane. Everything in that world is SAE and I didn't own any SAE tools. I had to quickly develop a practical understanding of fractions. It took a few weeks but I adapted.

I much prefer the metric system. I'm getting a little tired of converting units of measure, weights and volumes.

Title: Re: A polemic (and a plea) - metric v imperial
Post by ohiomoto on 07/20/17 at 10:55:38

7C6F7879666B6D6F643B0A0 wrote:

[quote author=181916171415121310210 link=1500445527/15#18 date=1500496645]I have a good set of BSW tools for sale from my 1965 BSA Lightning Rocket

Title: Re: A polemic (and a plea) - metric v imperial
Post by 12Bravo on 07/21/17 at 13:50:57

As a machinist/tool and die maker, I always convert fractions to decimal numbers. I've had to make plenty of parts for European machines (metric) using SAE (imperial) machines. I just measure them with my SAE micrometers and make the parts.

When I was stationed in Germany, it was always fun getting new/refilled gas tanks for welding and making sure we had the proper adapters on hand. We never knew if the tanks we were getting had SAE, metric, or British pipe threads.

Title: Re: A polemic (and a plea) - metric v imperial
Post by Armen on 07/21/17 at 14:02:24

It gets wonkier. Late model Harleys have a mix of metric and standard. Usually the fasteners you use most have Imperial wrench sizes. However, some have metric threads!
Started out in a bicycle shop. So, almost everything was metric. Although there were a few oddball threads such as freewheels that were from another era.
Then worked on metric motorcycles.
Then worked on scenery. Most of which was made here, and had Imperial size stuff.
When we get a set from across the pond, the mouth-breathers can't understand why they can't get SAE hardware to work!
Have to say, 'Foot Pounds' is more intuitive than newton-meters. Easy to imagine a pound of weight on the end of a 1 foot long wrench.
Having to deal with both is a good way to keep the mind sharp. Have to say, trying to decide if a 37/64 drill bit is larger than a 9/16" is a bit annoying...

Title: Re: A polemic (and a plea) - metric v imperial
Post by IslandRoad on 07/21/17 at 15:41:48

685B444C47290 wrote:

... Have to say, 'Foot Pounds' is more intuitive than newton-meters. Easy to imagine a pound of weight on the end of a 1 foot long wrench.

When I worked as a chemical engraver we used to do a lot of sandblasting. We worked in kPa (kilopascals) for pressure. Most of the gauges had kPa and PSI readings. Some times our directions would be given to us in PSI ... not good to confuse the two when sandblasting around the part-lines of injection molds! :o

Title: Re: A polemic (and a plea) - metric v imperial
Post by jcstokes on 07/21/17 at 17:48:35

Trust the bloody Poms, Whitworth, BSF, BA, an association of whatsits, BSP, forgotten that one and CYCLE, I don't know about that, but it did exist.

Title: Re: A polemic (and a plea) - metric v imperial
Post by Armen on 07/22/17 at 04:11:31

My '75 850 Norton had BSF, BSW, UNF, UNC, CEI, BA, and probably a metric bolt on the battery terminal.
In the '70s the Brit bikes were moving away from the Brit threads. So, the right side engine cover had 14x26TPI (Brit) screws, and the left side cover had 1/4x20 (SAE).
IIRC, when you ordered a new casting from Triumph in the late 70's, it would come with SAE thread pitch holes, even if the original had Brit threads.
As far as threads, metric has it all over Imperial. If for no other reason than it is so easy to figure out what tap drill to use (just subtract the thread pitch from the bolt diameter).

Title: Re: A polemic (and a plea) - metric v imperial
Post by LANCER on 07/23/17 at 14:49:51

7A697E7F606D6B69623D0C0 wrote:

[quote author=181916171415121310210 link=1500445527/15#18 date=1500496645]I have a good set of BSW tools for sale from my 1965 BSA Lightning Rocket

Title: Re: A polemic (and a plea) - metric v imperial
Post by verslagen1 on 07/23/17 at 17:25:30

464B44494F58181D2A0 wrote:

I've got a feeling that the front brake system is not quite stock.

The forks are shortened HD as are the wheels, bendix master. didn't hear where the disks and calipers came from.

Title: Re: A polemic (and a plea) - metric v imperial
Post by Dave on 07/24/17 at 09:16:18

Just in case you wanted to know.....I have done the math to make the conversion.

60 miles per hour is the same as 161,280 furlongs per fortnight! ;D

Title: Re: A polemic (and a plea) - metric v imperial
Post by IslandRoad on 07/24/17 at 16:47:28

I wonder how many people actually know what a fortnight is?

Title: Re: A polemic (and a plea) - metric v imperial
Post by ohiomoto on 07/26/17 at 08:26:44

fourteen nights

Title: Re: A polemic (and a plea) - metric v imperial
Post by IslandRoad on 07/26/17 at 14:29:50

2621202624263D26490 wrote:

fourteen nights

Well played, sir 8-)