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General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> Setting Up the S40 Suspension
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Message started by Gary_in_NJ on 06/22/17 at 11:26:44

Title: Setting Up the S40 Suspension
Post by Gary_in_NJ on 06/22/17 at 11:26:44

The S40/LS650 is a budget bike that was designed in the 1980’s. As a result the design (which hasn’t evolved) uses some rather rudimentary components that are inexpensive to manufacture and provide limited performance and comfort. This is not meant as an insult nor should it come as a surprise. But I don’t care if you spend $1,000 on a used Savage, or $30,000 on the latest and greatest highway comfort cruiser – a properly functioning and well tuned/adjusted suspension is important for your comfort and safety. This series of posts is (or attempts to be) written in plain language. Topics will be introduced in basic terms and further developed for those who what to read/learn more. I’m happy to answer questions and provide additional info for those that want it. I will focus on the stock S40/LS650 suspension (forks and shocks) as well as some upgrade components. The goal here is to get your suspension correct for your weight and riding style. Let’s begin with the forks.

The Savage uses hydraulically damped telescoping forks (also known as conventional forks) that consist of springs (to support the weight of the rider and motorcycle), a damping rod (to control the motion of the forks), oil (to create the damping) and spacers (to preload the springs). For reference I’ve attached an exploded view of these forks.

Title: Re: Setting Up the S40 Suspension
Post by Gary_in_NJ on 06/22/17 at 11:27:20

Breaking this down we have the following items under the cap (1); the chrome tubes that attach to the triple clamps (8) are the “fork tubes” or “stanchions”. The lower section that slides up and down the fork tube (16) is conveniently called a “slider”. As mentioned above, there is a spring (5) that support the weight of the rider and motorcycle, oil (not shown – but in there) to create damping (motion control) and the damping rod (7) that controls the rate of motion of the forks. There is a spacer (3) that is used to preload the spring to control/tune the sag of the suspension and seals (11-13) that keep the oil inside the forks. For the majority of fork maintenance, only parts 3 through 5 are removed and the oil is replaced. The o-ring (2) is attached to the cap. Parts 6 through 15 are bolted to, or pressed into, part 16 and only get removed if you take the steps to remove them.

As you can see, it’s a fairly simple design with few parts. Let’s take an in depth look at the springs. Motorcycle springs typically come in two types; linear which are a single-rate spring, and progressive which are a multi-rate spring. As the name implies a linear or single rate spring maintains its rate for the full compression of the spring. If the spring is rated at 20 pounds per inch (expressed as 20 lb/in) it takes 20 pounds to compress the spring one inch. The second inch of travel requires an additional 20 pounds of force, and so on until the spring has reached its mechanical limit of movement. A progressive spring is one that starts as one rate, but finishes at another rate. For example the spring may start as 10 pounds per inch and finish at 30 pounds per inch. This would be expressed as a 10/30 lb/in spring.

The Savage comes equipped with dual rate progressive springs from the factory. This type of spring is typical for conventional damping rod forks because a damping rod with fixed orifices, in and of itself, has no means of adjusting the speed of movement (compression and rebound damping). It can only provide a fixed amount of motion control. A progressive spring requires additive amounts of force to compress; this allows for fast movement in the early part of the fork stroke and as the fork compresses the spring requires additional force to achieve the additional movement.

The damping rod (7) is a tube with an opening on the top and a pair of small holes (shown on the drawing as the orifice) on the lower portion of the tube. The damping rod has a seal (6) and acts as a piston as the slider (16) moves up and down the fork tube (8). As the fork is compressed the piston moves/forces oil through the damping rod from the top of the tube through the smaller holes on the bottom. This creates resistance inside the fork itself. This resistance to movement is called damping; compression damping as the fork compresses and rebound damping as the spring in the fork seeks its static or neutral position.

How did Suzuki select the rate of the spring and the size of the holes in the damping rod? They estimate an “average rider” across their vast market. In this case a rider who weighs around 140-150 pounds. If this is you, your springs have been designed with you in mind. If this is not you, your bike is most likely under-sprung for you. Also, you may weigh 150 pounds, but you have added equipment and accessories to the bike that increased its weight. If this is the case, the combined weight of the bike, accessories and you are now outside the design limit of the springs.

From data found on the suzukisavge.com site it would appear that the OEM spring are a dual rate progressive spring with an initial rate of 19 lbs-in ( 0.34kg/mm) from its static position to 4 inches and then 23 lbs-in (0.41 kg/mm) from 4 to 7 inches. The overall length of the spring is about 15-1/2 inches (355mm). If this rate data is accurate, these are extremely light duty springs and I have to imagine that the vast majority of you are unhappy with the stock forks (even the 150 pound riders). Luckily, there are alternatives.

If you want to simply respring the forks with dual rate progressive springs of a higher rate I would suggest Progressive Suspension (brand) part number 11-1153. These springs have an initial rate of 35 lb/in and finish at 50 lb/in (0.63/0.89 kg/mm). They measure 30x445mm – so they are longer than the OEM springs by 3-1/2”. This extra length is off-set by cutting down the OEM spacer (or making a new spacer out of PVC). These springs will work well for riders between 160 to 220 pounds. I would suggest that you use 15w fork oil at an oil height (actually an air gap – measured with the forks compressed and springs out) of 120mm, and set the initial preload at 15mm (more on that later).

Regarding the spring rate of 35/50 lb/in; this is obviously a significant change from the 21/23 lb/in springs that Suzuki installed at the factory. I did do some benchmarking. First, my own LS650 uses a linear rate spring of 40 lb/in. However, do keep in mind that my Savage weighs 310 pounds vs 360 for a standard LS650, and I only weigh 170 pounds. I'm also using a cartridge emulator so I enjoy dynamic damping. Second, I also benchmarked some similar (but heavier) bikes. The VS800/S50, a bike that weighs 440 lbs and comes with a OEM spring of 26 lb/in, has a suggested spring rate from RachTech of 50 in/lbs with a 170 pound rider. Progressive suggests a 35/50 lb/in spring for this bike as well. RaceTech also recommends a 50lb/in spring for a VN750 (485 lb bike) with a 170 pound rider whereas Progressive suggests a 30/45 lb/in. Finally, unless heavily preloaded, I don’t think that you’ll use the top end of the 35/50 lb/in range. I say this because the available compressed length of about 220mm is longer than the 175mm of available travel of the OEM spring. I do think that this spring will work perfectly in the Savage forks.

Title: Re: Setting Up the S40 Suspension
Post by Gary_in_NJ on 06/22/17 at 11:27:38

The real limiting item in the forks is the damping rod itself. It offers zero tunability. Damping rods are inexpensive to manufacture but have significant limitations. As noted above, to create compression damping, oil is forced through the holes at the bottom of the damping rod. Forcing oil through a hole creates very little resistance to flow at low speed, such as hitting a dip or gully or applying the front brakes. This allows the forks to shoot through their travel fairly easily, diving or bottoming in these situations. On the other hand when the wheel hits something fast or sharp edged (like a pothole) it needs a lot of oil to pass through the damping holes very quickly. Unfortunately the nature of forcing oil through a hole is that as the wheel velocity increases the damping force increases with the square of the velocity. In other words if you double the velocity you get four times the force. This means the hole basically "hydraulic locks" resulting in a harsh or stiff ride. Damping rods give the worst of both worlds; they are both too mushy and too harsh at the same time. Progressive rate springs further complicate this this because they amplify these undesirable performance characteristic.

There aren’t many “easy” or inexpensive solutions here. The inexpensive solution that many try is to use higher viscosity oil. While this will improve damping during slow-speed events, the forks will hydrolock sooner during high speed events. For this reason I don’t suggest this approach. One could experiment with increasing the size of the holes at the bottom of the damping rod AND using heavy weight oil, but this more than likely would be a zero sum gain. The only real solution to improve the damping of the forks is to use a cartridge emulator that bypasses the holes in the damping rod, replacing their function with a spring actuated valve that provides dynamic damping. Put simply, it works.

It all comes down to budget. A spring swap for the 11-1153’s noted above will cost in the neighborhood of $90 ($78 for the springs on Amazon and $10 for a quart of fork oil). A cartridge emulator kit will cost around $150 plus $115 for linear springs. Here’s the rub; if you go with progressive rate springs and then decide to upgrade to a cartridge emulator, you’ll be buying springs again. When using a cartridge emulator you must use a linear-rate spring otherwise the valving won’t work as designed.

Title: Re: Setting Up the S40 Suspension
Post by Gary_in_NJ on 06/22/17 at 11:28:05

Shocks
Much of the discussion of the forks applies to the shocks as well. The shocks define how comfortable the bike will ride – so it’s important to get them right. What makes one shock better then another? Like the forks, the primary function of the shock is to 1) support the sprung weight of the bike and rider and 2) provide damping to control the speed of movement throughout the stroke of the shaft. Without damping a spring will seek its static position as quickly as possible, overshooting its static position due to inertia. Also, just like the forks, a shock uses oil and air to create compression and rebound damping. As the shock moves it creates heat which is absorbed into the oil. When the oil gets hot it foams within the chamber and if the oil gets too hot it causes cavitation (slipping) within the chamber – impacting the ability of the shock to provide predictable (or meaningful) damping. The faster that heat can be absorbed and dissipated, the better the shock can perform its primary function of providing predictable damping. As a rule: the bigger the oil chamber the more effective the heat management of the shock.

The OEM shocks on the Savage are what are known as twin-tube shocks. Twin-tube shocks are the type most typically found on budget bikes. They are self-contained with an inner oil chamber and an outer air chamber (hence, the twin tubes). As a result of this design the inner oil chamber is very small. The damping rod (shaft) is connected to a piston that moves through the oil, creating damping. The vast majority of these shocks are typically low performance, non-rebuildable (meaning the valving can’t be adjusted), provide fixed damping and only adjustable for spring preload (usually just 5 positions for spring preload).

The OEM shocks on the Savage are under sprung and under dampened and are a significant limitation to comfort. If you’ve taken any of the above advice on your forks, then take this advice – throw your shocks in the garbage. Many Savage riders have had good success with Progressive Suspension’s 412 Series shocks. This is still a twin-tube shock, but they are slightly longer (1/2 to 1 inch) allowing for additional swingarm travel, have a dual rate spring that is more suited towards heavier riders, are nitrogen filled and “may” have better damping.

In order to select the correct part number of the 412 Series shock you will need to make a few decisions. First is your ride height. The OEM Savage shocks are 10-1/2 inches long and provide about 1-1/2 inch of travel. The 412 Series come in a number of lengths, but the closest to the OEM is an 11 inch unit offering 2” of travel and there is an 11-1/2 unit that has 2-1/2 inches of travel. Next, you will need to select the spring rate(s). There are two available rates that will work well on the Savage, depending on your body weight. The is a 90/130 lb/in spring that will work for riders up to about 200-210 lbs and a 115/155 lb/in rate that will work for riders above that weight. Finally, there are both black and chrome versions of the shocks. Looking at Progressive’s spec sheet I’ve put together the following viable part numbers. There may be more, but these made the most sense. Before ordering call Progressive and talk to a tech support person.

11 Inch Eye-to-Eye
412-4005, 90/130 Spring Rates, comes in Black or Chrome
412-4232, 90/130 Spring Rates, comes in Chrome only
412-4233, 115/155 Spring Rates, comes in Chrome only

11-1/2 Inch Eye-to-Eye
412-4006, 90/130 Spring Rates, comes in Black or Chrome
412-4200, 90/130 Spring Rates, comes in Chrome only
412-4201, 115/155 Spring Rates, comes in Chrome only

For reference, I use an 80/100 lb/in spring on my bike. My bike is probably 40 pounds lighter on the rear axle than a stock Savage. The 90/130 should work nicely for the average sized rider.

I know that some have used the shocks from the VS800/S50. I would not recommend putting these shocks on your Savage. Yes, it does have heavier rate springs but it is exactly the same crappy damping used on the Savage.

The next step up from the 412 series shocks would be a gas pressurized emulsion shock. I’ve yet to find a bolt-on replacement gas pressurized shock with the correct specifications. The short size/stroke is typically found on small displacement (very light) bikes. As a result the spring rates are typically too low and the mounts are 10mm or 12mm (the Savage has 14mm mounts). If there is enough interest or demand we might see if CL Moto can rework 280mm (11”) RFY shocks for use on the Savage. This approach world require cutting springs and reworking the bushings for 14mm mounts – but they would be a tuneable/rebuildable bolt-on replacement with unlimited preload adjustment (versus the 5 click stops).

As you can probably tell from above, I’m not a big fan of multi-rate springs in forks. Used in the forks I find progressive springs too soft in the initial stroke and unpredictable in the remainder of the stroke. I believe that proper valving is the best route towards fork “progressivity”. However, multi-rate springs are necessary for our shocks. Here’s why.

Many modern motorcycles use a mono-shock arrangement. Mono shocks use a linear rate spring. The progressivity in the system comes from the multi-link connection between the shock and the swing arm. With this configuration, as the swingarm moves up there is less leverage between the shock and the swingarm, creating additional force with increased motion. Classic motorcycles like the Savage that use twin shocks have a direct connection between the upper shock mount and the swingarm, so there is a linear relationship between the motion of the swingarm and the compression of the shock. A multi-rate spring allows the shock to apply additional force on the swingarm as it moves up towards the bike.

Title: Re: Setting Up the S40 Suspension
Post by Gary_in_NJ on 06/22/17 at 11:28:22

Tuning/Adjustment
Whether you do nothing to upgrade the suspension on your bike, or go with a full blown cartridge emulator kit and replacement shocks, it’s is important that you set-up the suspension for your weight by setting the sag of your bike (depending on your weight setting proper sag may be impossible with OEM components). By setting the sag you will know that you won’t bottom-out or top-out your suspension. By properly setting the suspension sag you will get the most out of your suspension with respect to ride quality and performance. It’s important and worth the effort.

Setting the sag is quite easy – and very easy if you have a friend or two to help – and beer. There are three types of measurements you will be taking; (1) baseline, (2) race sag & (3) free sag. As you move through the steps below, it’s important to remember that race sag is a user set value, and free sag is a result of the set value. Race sag is adjusted through preloading the springs with washers for the forks and the collar on the shock.

The first number you need to obtain is the length of the suspension without any weight on the bike. This is your baseline number. For the forks I suggest measuring the distance from the bottom of the triple clamp to the axle or wiper. Using a zip-tie on one of the fork stanchions will make measuring easier. For the shocks I measure from the top of the upper mounting nut to the ground (held as vertically as possible). You will need to jack the bike up or find another way to unload the suspension so the wheels are just touching the ground to get this measurement.

The next value we need is the race sag (no we’re not going racing – it’s the weight of the bike and rider on the suspension). Sit on the bike (feet on the pegs in a riding position) and have one helper steady the bike while the other measures the same measuring points on the forks and shock that you used for the baseline measurements. Subtract the race sag figure from the baseline figure to arrive at the race sag. Ideally we want to use about 30% of the available travel for race sag. The Savage forks have 127mm of travel, so the target race sag is 38mm (1-1/2 inch). Your forks should have 15mm of preload on the springs. If your race sag figure is too small (less than 1-1/2”) you will need to reduce preload buy cutting the spacer. If you over shot the desired race sag, you will need to add 1-1/4” washers on top of the spacer. Reassemble the forks and re-measure. Oh, remove one fork cap at time, otherwise your forks will collapse and you’ll have oil everywhere.

I can't find the swingarm travel for a Savage, but my guess it is only 2 to 3 inches, so the race sag would be a little over 1/2 to less than an inch. Lets call it 3/4 inch (That also happens to be the figure Progressive Suspension uses). Subtract the race sag value from the baseline value to determine the amount of suspension travel you are using for race sag. If you overshot the target you need additional preload. If you didn't reach the target you need less.

Finally we need to know the free sag. The free sag value on the bike tells us whether we have the correct spring rate. With the correct spring rate we know that the suspension will provide adequate performance so the forks don't fully compress under load (a dangerous condition).

Free sag is the weight of the bike on the suspension. To get the correct value pump the suspension vigorously and allow the bike to settle. Holding the bike upright you will once again measure from the same points, subtracting the free sag value from the baseline value. The target for free sag is about 10mm (probably just 5 for the rear given its limited travel). If your race sag is correct but free sag is less than the recommended 10mm, or if the suspension is topping out, a heavier spring rate is indicated. Just the opposite applies if free sag is more than the target - a lighter rated spring may be needed.

You will find that taking race and free sag measurements is not precise (the baseline should be). If you do it three times you will probably get three different results – and that’s ok and expected. Average your results or use the results that you think were obtained the best. If you get “in the zone” you know that your suspension is set up correct.

I hope that some of you find this info useful. I take the time and effort (and the expense) to get the suspension of every bike I own correct. I had a Suzuki Katana in the mid 80’s that had an OEM suspension. The big Kat had horrendous brake dive – but so did every bike I owned up to that point (the Kat’s was by far the worst). One day I was rolling to a stop sign at a T intersection, going less than 5 mph. A car making a left cut the corner short and I had to grab the brakes to avoid hitting him. The forks completely compressed - and rebounded with enough force to cause me to lose my balance and knock me off the bike. I’ve been riding on the street for nearly 40 years, and that was the only time in my life when I had to pick my bike up off the ground (I’ve broken many bones on the dirt). At the time I just couldn’t figure out what happened. When I went to the local bike shop to buy replacement parts (directional and a mirror) the guy explained that dropping the bike wasn’t entirely my fault, it was mostly the fault of the suspension. I had him rework the suspension and I just couldn’t believe the difference. If your bike has a jarring/uncomfortable ride, or you find yourself uneasy when applying the brakes due to brake dive – rework your suspension. It will increase your enjoyment of riding exponentially.

Title: Re: Setting Up the S40 Suspension
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 06/22/17 at 17:46:02

What a well timed post.
That's really neat!

Title: Re: Setting Up the S40 Suspension
Post by batman on 06/22/17 at 19:44:41

Gary that's some post ! thanks for the enlightenment

Title: Re: Setting Up the S40 Suspension
Post by Rodger on 06/22/17 at 21:02:20

Wowza...very thorough, Gary. Good write-up!

Title: Re: Setting Up the S40 Suspension
Post by Todd James on 06/22/17 at 22:54:43

That was a great post, Gary.

Thank you for taking the time to share your
knowledge and expertise with us.

I now understand how my suspension works,
why it behaves the way it does,
and how to improve it.

Title: Re: Setting Up the S40 Suspension
Post by piedmontbuckeye on 06/23/17 at 14:30:32

Very informative post. Did I miss it? What was the cost of the recommended rear shocks substitute? Shocks and Springs for about a 200 Lb. person?

Does Koni (now IKON) have any suitable shocks for this application?

Title: Re: Setting Up the S40 Suspension
Post by Gary_in_NJ on 06/23/17 at 15:09:09

38212D2C2527263C2A3D2B232D312D480 wrote:

The 412 shocks sell for around $270 on amazon. I kept to a brand that is known to make products for cruisers, a brand well known and respected by the Savage community. I'd be happy to evaluate products and specs from other companies.

I think you'd be happy with shocks with the 90/130 rate. You're near the threshold, so if you plan on bulking up, go for the 115/155.

Title: Re: Setting Up the S40 Suspension
Post by gizzo on 06/23/17 at 15:26:43

Thanks for taking the time to write that up, Gary.

Title: Re: Setting Up the S40 Suspension
Post by kojones on 10/03/17 at 11:45:40

As I'm cheap AF and Racetech stuff is quite expensive, I spent a few hours with dear google.

First, there's YSS PD Fork Valves: http://www.motorcyclenews.com/new-gear/yss-pd-motorcycle-fork-valve-kit/
31 mm should be suitable for Savage, as they are recommended for GS500. Could also be 29mm. Or even smaller.

Second, Kawasaki 250R Ninjas from 2009 seem to have fork springs with linear rate of 0.65 kg/mm. http://www.partzilla.com/parts/detail/kawasaki/KP-44026-0126.html

any opinions? ;)

Title: Re: Setting Up the S40 Suspension
Post by Gary_in_NJ on 10/03/17 at 11:53:58

What are the length of those fork springs? Too long and they may require too much preload. To short and they can bind at full travel (or not allow full travel). But they might work nicely...just need the specs.

The YSS PD Fork Valve is a "import" copy of the Racetech unit. What is the valving and what is the valve spring rate? That will determine set up. I think if you go with the YSS unit you'll be on your own for set up. The GVE has been adapted to the S40 forks so there is known setup info.

Title: Re: Setting Up the S40 Suspension
Post by kojones on 10/03/17 at 12:09:49

62686C666D646069373135050 wrote:

Don't know the length, but Racetech recommends the exact same S2938 springs for that Ninja and Savage.

Setting up the YSSs would indeed require some experimenting...

Title: Re: Setting Up the S40 Suspension
Post by Gary_in_NJ on 10/03/17 at 12:20:34

OK, while I don't know the length of the OEM springs in the 250R, I was able to look up the springs suggested by RT. The Racetech website shows that the S2938 springs are 29.0 x 377mm. There are the same springs I have installed in my Cafe Racer.

The OEM spring in the S40 is 29.0x355mm (although the springs I removed from my bike were 405mm and I'm sure they were OEM), so they seem to be in the correct ballpark. I think a rate of 0.65kg/mm would work well if you weigh between 150-175 pounds and your bike is a cafe conversion (I used 0.70kg/m). A spring rate of 0.65kg/mm on a stock S40 may be too light, especially if you're a large fellow.

What I am NOT sure about is this; are the 250R springs progressively wound or are they straight rate springs? I find it hard to believe that Kawasaki used a straight rate spring in a damping rod fork. If you can find a photo of the 250R OEM spring, we can quickly assess the type of spring. Dave, have you had the springs our of your Ninja?

Title: Re: Setting Up the S40 Suspension
Post by kojones on 10/03/17 at 13:15:29

https://youtu.be/lYQc4BrodXA?t=50

looks linear to me.

Title: Re: Setting Up the S40 Suspension
Post by Gary_in_NJ on 10/03/17 at 13:19:26

To me too. What is your weight and what mods are on your bike?

Title: Re: Setting Up the S40 Suspension
Post by kojones on 10/03/17 at 13:39:56

707A7E747F76727B252327170 wrote:

To me too. What is your weight and what mods are on your bike?

I weigh around 175 pounds, the bike is in the process of transforming into a scrambler. Ditched the stock muffler w. mounting bracket, rear fender, etc...
It will be as light as possible, but I'm trying to maintain a low budget, so no litium battery just yet ;)

Title: Re: Setting Up the S40 Suspension
Post by Gary_in_NJ on 10/03/17 at 13:58:17

Good info. Those 250R springs should work well for you. I can't give any guidance on how to set-up the compression valve, but with some experimentation I'm sure it will work. Get the sag value correct with the springs. Compression damping will be controlled with the valve and rebound damping will be controlled via the air gap. You will need to drill out your existing damping holes in the damping rod to 5/16" and add two additional holes. You want to eliminate any flow bottleneck in the rod and let the valve do all of the compression damping.

Start a new thread when you get the parts. I'll be happy to help as much as I can.

Title: Re: Setting Up the S40 Suspension
Post by kojones on 10/04/17 at 04:35:22

Will do. Ordered the springs, have to measure them before I order the emulators.

Thanks for your effort in this topic, it's a good read.

Title: Re: Setting Up the S40 Suspension
Post by Gary_in_NJ on 10/04/17 at 06:16:48

The ID of the fork tubes is 33mm. The 29mm or 31mm valve will work, but I'd order the 31mm so the 29mm springs have a good surface upon which to rest. Post photos of it when you get it. I'd like to see how it differs (if at all) from the GVE.

Title: Re: Setting Up the S40 Suspension
Post by NMSavage on 10/04/17 at 07:36:07

Well done Gary...I've wondered what and how to address my suspension issues. Time to break out the tape measure and tools. Thanks!

Title: Re: Setting Up the S40 Suspension
Post by Jody72 on 07/11/18 at 22:36:32

I'm a heavy guy 240 I have been replacing my rear tire about every other year my wife seams to think my heavy ass is causing my fender to ride on the tire because of the shocks are worn out. I have not smelt rubber burning or felt the fender being hot. what you thought?

Title: Re: Setting Up the S40 Suspension
Post by Dave on 07/12/18 at 03:27:04

373239246A6F5D0 wrote:

Do you see any marks on the tire or fender or bolts that makes you believe anything is rubbing?

Title: Re: Setting Up the S40 Suspension
Post by Panhead on 07/12/18 at 07:46:07

Looks like a great chance for me to share some insight while building up to 10 posts. How many miles do you ride in a year? What kind of tire? What air pressure? I would speculate that rapid acceleration/deceleration and hard cornering (you are riding a Savage, after all) have something to do with it. I don't think 240 pounds is enough to affect the rear tire wear. When we were younger, my wife and I rode together. Our combined weight was more than your 240 pounds yet we easily got between 12 and 15k out of a rear tire on the Savage. Riding solo, I didn't ride as conservatively and couldn't get nearly that many miles from the same brand rear tire, but I have slowed down this year and tire wear slowed with me. Who would have thought?

Title: Re: Setting Up the S40 Suspension
Post by Jody72 on 07/12/18 at 11:13:39

i get between 1500 to 2000 miles on a rear tire the front one i just changed last year at around 16,000 yes it could of been done a little sooner.

Title: Re: Setting Up the S40 Suspension
Post by Dave on 07/12/18 at 12:18:58

393C372A6461530 wrote:

i get between 1500 to 2000 miles on a rear tire

Do you participate in a lot of burnout contests? :-?

I buy Pirelli Sport Demons which are renown for being soft and sticky and wearing out fast.....and I can go 6,000 miles on a back tire.

Title: Re: Setting Up the S40 Suspension
Post by Jody72 on 07/12/18 at 15:31:22

nope no burn outs for me. I do spin them from time to time in the grave in my driveway. it's mostly back and forth to work 9 mile one way 3 stop signs and 4 turns. I don't see any signs of rubbing just a bald tire every other year. maybe it's just cheap tires. what high mile tire you recommend?

Title: Re: Setting Up the S40 Suspension
Post by ohiomoto on 07/12/18 at 19:05:37

This needs to move to a tire thread.

Title: Re: Setting Up the S40 Suspension
Post by Dave on 07/13/18 at 03:30:55

72777C612F2A180 wrote:

What high mile tire you recommend?

The new tire thread is here:
http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1448021014

Title: Re: Setting Up the S40 Suspension
Post by Jody72 on 07/16/18 at 18:52:06

ok fork question. one of my forks is leaking should I go ahead a rebuild both? if I have to do both I might as well up grad it to. I was just wondering the best place/person to get parts from and what all should I get? List #1 just enough part to fix one fork from leaking.

List #2 parts for up grading the set and leak repair.

Title: Re: Setting Up the S40 Suspension
Post by batman on 07/16/18 at 22:48:08

No matter which way you go, you should rebuild both.

Title: Re: Setting Up the S40 Suspension
Post by Jody72 on 09/15/18 at 19:47:08

where can I fine a rebuild kit for my front forks?

Title: Re: Setting Up the S40 Suspension
Post by verslagen1 on 09/15/18 at 23:02:02

I don't think there's any kit, just get the oil seal, dust seal and the keeper.

Title: Re: Setting Up the S40 Suspension
Post by batman on 09/16/18 at 19:28:31

If it's the left fork, and the fluid has run down to the brake caliper ,I'd pick up a set of brake pads and clean the caliper .

Title: Re: Setting Up the S40 Suspension
Post by ohiomoto on 09/17/18 at 10:51:37

I'm going add this here for those of us who lowered our forks for looks but would like to get that lost travel back and possibly do some of the mods listed here. I'm one of those guys and since I have standard bars, I'd like to keep my top clamp. So I decided to look into have my fork legs shortened and rethreaded to accept the stock top caps.

I found an experienced guy on youtube and contacted him. $75 a leg. He's experienced and is into cool stuff. I'll be sending my fork tubes to him this winter.

http://https://yt3.ggpht.com/a-/ACSszfHGqqJi9Ng7CwG97yx-cgouAXS2ZHu7QaW51w=s900-mo-c-c0xffffffff-rj-k-no

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HNiblp32Qq0[/media]

Title: Re: Setting Up the S40 Suspension
Post by Gary_in_NJ on 09/17/18 at 13:43:37

Good info. Another option would be to purchase new custom fork tubes from RaceTech that are shorter. Here's a link:

http://racetech.com/page/title/FTNK%20Fork%20Tubes

Title: Re: Setting Up the S40 Suspension
Post by Dave on 09/18/18 at 09:54:35

616B6F656E67636A343236060 wrote:

Good info. Another option would be to purchase new custom fork tubes from RaceTech that are shorter. Here's a link:

http://racetech.com/page/title/FTNK%20Fork%20Tubes

Gary: I am not sure shorter is an option.........they have this statement on their webpage:

TNK Tubes are direct OEM replacements in standard length only, there are no shorter or longer options offered for USD forks such as Sport Bikes. Some longer than stock tubes are offered for crusier models and some vintage HD. Please use catalog download to view these options.

Title: Re: Setting Up the S40 Suspension
Post by batman on 09/18/18 at 15:45:56

Looking at the site it appears they have stock fork tubes 626mm and longer fork tubes 800mm

Title: Re: Setting Up the S40 Suspension
Post by VortecCPI on 05/01/19 at 14:14:54

I just installed Progressive Suspension part number 11-1153 fork springs in my wife's 2012 and it really helped (Thank you Gary). The stock fork springs are too light and have way too much preload.

Now the bike is much more compliant over small stuff yet resists brake dive and bottoming. It used to be like a pogo stock and was constantly using up way too much travel up front. Just coming to an easy stop caused the forks to use up a bunch of travel.

I used the bare minimum for spring preload (2-3/16" spacer) and Race Sag is 25% with my 150 pounds on it. Still could use a lot more rebound damping.

We often ride two-up and the bike has saddle bags so the stock forks were really awful. This was a fast and easy way to make the forks much better.

HIGHLY recommended...

Title: Re: Setting Up the S40 Suspension
Post by Jody72 on 05/01/19 at 14:27:02

I just order me some spring last week. can't wait to put them in.

Title: Re: Setting Up the S40 Suspension
Post by VortecCPI on 05/02/19 at 04:46:59

I should also add here Hagon makes a set of fork springs specifically for this bike as part number 400-049-01.

Our suspension tuner (Bruce Triplett in NC) is a Hagon dealer and this did not occur to me until AFTER I bought the PS springs... Doh!

Bruce is a vintage DR fork genius and one day I will have him do this bike too: http://www.brucessuspension.net

http://hagonshocksusa.com/FS_Apps_list.htm

Title: Re: Setting Up the S40 Suspension
Post by VortecCPI on 05/02/19 at 04:51:29

And one more thing... If you do not ride two-up and/or if you are very light you may find the forks to be a little stiff. If so I suggest you use one stock fork spring and one PS fork spring.

Also... I should mention is that the fork oil height is still at stock level (75mm) versus Gary's recommended level of 120mm. The higher the oil level the greater rate of the air spring. I think I will lower it to 120mm for a test...

Title: Re: Setting Up the S40 Suspension
Post by ohiomoto on 05/02/19 at 06:03:06

I did get my forks cut down and it's working out great. It's a nice option for anyone wanting to lower the front end of the bike 2" while keeping the stock top clamp. Rides much better than it did with the 2" spacer to reduce travel.

I'm running a set of stiffer progressive springs with very little preload and a low oil level (eyeball method, for now, will measure soon.) I will also measure the clearance between the fork tubes and lower clamp when I set my final oil level so we know what the max cut off point.

I may add some Race Tech or YSS emulators at some point and Hagon shocks will replace the stock shocks when the blow.

Title: Re: Setting Up the S40 Suspension
Post by VortecCPI on 05/02/19 at 12:54:38

Fork oil was at about 100mm so I lowered it to 120mm. That may not sound like much but on our DR dirt bikes 1/2 ounce can make a big difference when dealing with bottoming. If fork oil is too low forks may bottom. If fork oil is too high forks get too harsh near full stroke.

I spoke to Bruce Triplett and he is looking into a set of Hagon fork springs so I can test them as well...

Title: Re: Setting Up the S40 Suspension
Post by Gary_in_NJ on 05/02/19 at 13:08:11

0C35282E3F39190A135A0 wrote:
I should also add here Hagon makes a set of fork springs specifically for this bike as part number 400-049-01.

I searched for this part number but didn't find any detail information. Do you happen to know the rate(s), length and diameter of these springs? Are they dual or triple rate? If they are the same or similar to the OEM, they aren't an upgrade.

Title: Re: Setting Up the S40 Suspension
Post by VortecCPI on 05/02/19 at 13:28:43

676D69636861656C323430000 wrote:

I searched for this part number but didn't find any detail information. Do you happen to know the rate(s), length and diameter of these springs? Are they dual or triple rate? If they are the same or similar to the OEM, they aren't an upgrade.

Bruce is working on this for us now and I will report back what he finds...

Title: Re: Setting Up the S40 Suspension
Post by VortecCPI on 05/02/19 at 13:33:59

PS spring rate is 35/55 lb/in and RT recommends 0.75 kg/mm or 42 lb/in for 150-pound rider so the PS springs seem to be a good compromise.

Bruce said the PS springs will be a bit heavy as you go through the stroke and he is correct. Looking forward to hearing what he can find out about the Hagon set...

Also... Bruce said no problem revalving the damper rods for this bike. He does a lot of HD DR forks as well. The revalved DR forks he did for my CRF230F are nothing short of amazing.

And... Since there are no valves in DR forks when I write "revalved" that means all the DR holes are welded solid and the DRs are completely reworked. You end up with DRs with lots of different holes of different sizes in lots of different locations. It is a position-sensitive system, not a speed-sensitive system but it works exceptionally well. Bruce is a wizard when it comes to DR forks...

Title: Re: Setting Up the S40 Suspension
Post by VortecCPI on 05/02/19 at 13:43:09

Out of respect for Bruce's decades of R&D work I will NOT share photos of the DRs in my CR230F but I can share those from other race bikes not done by Bruce...

Title: Re: Setting Up the S40 Suspension
Post by VortecCPI on 05/02/19 at 13:43:28

Here is another...

Title: Re: Setting Up the S40 Suspension
Post by VortecCPI on 05/02/19 at 13:45:09

Bruce has volumes of customer data and each set of forks and/or each shock gets a serial number so he can trace it back to the customer and his weight, context, etc.

Back in the old days ALl Baker's XRs Only used to to the same thing for their custom Honda XR bikes. We had two of them and they were amazing.

Title: Re: Setting Up the S40 Suspension
Post by VortecCPI on 05/02/19 at 14:46:46

Just found an old set of 30 lb/in 30 mm x 510 mm fork springs. They are about 10 mm in too long so would have a bit too much preload but they may be worth a try...

Perhaps one of each... Impossible to setup suspension that works for both single and two-up rising... All just a compromise...

Title: Re: Setting Up the S40 Suspension
Post by Jody72 on 05/02/19 at 16:22:47

7F6C7B7A65686E6C6738090 wrote:

I don't think there's any kit, just get the oil seal, dust seal and the keeper.

I look through the parts list I did not see anything that says keeper.

Title: Re: Setting Up the S40 Suspension
Post by verslagen1 on 05/02/19 at 19:43:52

686D667B3530020 wrote:

[quote author=7F6C7B7A65686E6C6738090 link=1498156004/30#34 date=1537077722]I don't think there's any kit, just get the oil seal, dust seal and the keeper.

I look through the parts list I did not see anything that says keeper.[/quote]
look for a wire that retains the oil seal.

Title: Re: Setting Up the S40 Suspension
Post by batman on 05/02/19 at 20:45:28

Jody72, Ring, stopper 51156- 40301( -2 required) about $3.54 each

Title: Re: Setting Up the S40 Suspension
Post by Jody72 on 05/02/19 at 22:36:36

thanks guys!

Title: Re: Setting Up the S40 Suspension
Post by Gary_in_NJ on 05/03/19 at 07:54:20

The "tuned holes" in the damping rod is utter BS. Oil will always seek the path of least resistance. The large hole will have zero damping during slow motions. And the height thing is just laughable. My guess is that this system combines a stiff spring to keep the bike from falling on its face during slow motions, and the larger orifice provides some type of damping at higher speeds. Any orifice smaller than the largest is doing absolutely nothing.

I'm not gonna argue this back and forth. Please start your own thread for this topic because this approach is way off topic.

Title: Re: Setting Up the S40 Suspension
Post by batman on 05/03/19 at 21:49:26

" Oil will always seek the path of least resistance. " Any orifice smaller than the largest is doing absolutely nothing. "
I find that both those statements laughable, all the holes are the paths of less or least resistance , as the fork retracts and the fork oil pressure increases it is transmitted EQUALLY throughout this sealed vessel. the flow of oil will only be limited by the oils height, and the size and number of of the orifices it's allowed to pass through.
Dill two holes in the bottom of a bucket one half the size of the other , pour in a quart of oil and pick it up .both will be under 14.7 psi, but you say the oil will only run out the larger hole, good luck with that!
There's more than one way to skin a cat , I think Vortec CPI may well be on to something ,and I don't believe it's off topic.

Title: Re: Setting Up the S40 Suspension
Post by VortecCPI on 05/04/19 at 09:00:17

060C08020900040D535551610 wrote:

Sorry, and with all due respect, you are way off on this one. I have ridden bikes with Bruce's setup and they are outstanding and many riders have ditched RT Emulators in favor of his forks.

As the forks move down the stroke the holes are sequentially covered and damping rate increases. Same when the forks return back to the top. You end up with very plush forks that provide more damping as the stroke increases thus providing amazing brake and bottoming resistance. You have to ride on a set to believe the difference. Rave reviews on ThumperTalk.

They way this works is very obvious if you understand Fluid Dynamics and we do: http://www.eclipseeng.com/services/computational-fluid-dynamics-cfd.html

Title: Re: Setting Up the S40 Suspension
Post by VortecCPI on 05/10/19 at 06:10:42

Some data on the fork springs as the length in my wife's bike did not match that of this post...

Stock fork springs are 32mm x 16.0" with a rate of 19/23 lb/in
Prog .Susp. fork springs are 31mm x 17.5" with a rate of 35/50 lb/in
Race Sag with PS fork springs is 1.4" or 28%

Total length of spring and spacer to achieve minimum preload is 19.75". Stock fork spring spacer length is 5.3125" so total length of stock springs and stock spacers is 21.3125".

Stock fork springs are garbage - Very rough over small stuff and little resistance to dive and bottoming. PS fork springs are very good over small stuff but are too heavy at the end of the stroke. I found a 31mm x 20" with a straight-rate of 30 lb/in so I am going to try that in one side. That will take me from 35/50 to 32.5/40 which I think will work good.

Another possibility is one stock spring and one PS spring which will take me from 35/50 to 27/36.5 which I think might be good at the top but too little at the bottom. I use PS 35/45 springs in my SRX600 and they work great.

Still curious as to what Hagon 400-049-01 fork springs look like...

Note RT recommendations for Race Sag...

Title: Re: Setting Up the S40 Suspension
Post by philthymike on 07/16/19 at 15:33:37

58414D4C4547465C4A5D4B434D514D280 wrote:

Does Koni (now IKON) have any suitable shocks for this application?

Yes they do.

https://www.ikonsuspensionusa.com/shop/7610-1530/
Pricey though!

Title: Re: Setting Up the S40 Suspension
Post by LANCER on 07/17/19 at 12:42:35

8-)

Title: Re: Setting Up the S40 Suspension
Post by ohiomoto on 08/09/19 at 10:43:44

2C2B2A2C2E2C372C430 wrote:

---------------------------

A little update...

I had 2" removed from my forks and confirmed that the fork lower clears the triple clamp with springs removed.

http://suzukisavage.com/yabb2.2/Attachments/IMG_20190422_125831689.jpg
http://suzukisavage.com/yabb2.2/Attachments/Forks.jpg

Title: Re: Setting Up the S40 Suspension
Post by Ruttly on 08/09/19 at 12:21:05

So you have a 2" shorter than stock and still have full travel ? What about the spring & spacer ? Are you using stock spring ? Not enough clearance to install a fork brace huh ?

Title: Re: Setting Up the S40 Suspension
Post by ohiomoto on 08/11/19 at 07:57:44

Yes full travel. Stock spring and 2" cut off stock spacer. Don't have a fork brace, not sure if it would fit or not.

Stock spring is too soft. I have some stiffer Progressive springs that I got from RYCA. They are too stiff and don't offer full travel. I'm not sure what they are exactly, but I'll report back when I dig into it again.

Title: Re: Setting Up the S40 Suspension
Post by ohiomoto on 08/13/19 at 11:30:35

The stiffer springs RYCA sells for the shortened forks are Progressive 11-1528 springs for HD FLH/FLT!!! They are 14.5 inches long and have a rate of 50/80 lbs/inch. That's a 750-800 lb bike. No wonder why they were stiff!

Title: Re: Setting Up the S40 Suspension
Post by Gary_in_NJ on 08/13/19 at 12:19:57

Yes a 50/80 is way too much spring for an LS650 (see post #2 in this thread). Personally, I would never use a progressively wound spring because of excessive brake dive. Moreover the stock damping can't control the fast movements of the lighter rate usually used in the savage (35/50).

Title: Re: Setting Up the S40 Suspension
Post by ohiomoto on 08/13/19 at 12:42:18

Yeah, I sort of get it when you have reduced travel, but still...

I'll need something a little stiffer than stock. I'll have to go back a read post #2.

Title: Re: Setting Up the S40 Suspension
Post by verslagen1 on 08/13/19 at 13:07:47

add oil

Title: Re: Setting Up the S40 Suspension
Post by Gary_in_NJ on 08/13/19 at 16:15:43

With a 75mm air gap the savage forks already hydro lock during fast motions, adding more oil wont solve a single problem, but will create new ones.

Title: Re: Setting Up the S40 Suspension
Post by Jody72 on 08/13/19 at 17:38:20

I got some Progressive springs from RYCA. I was told to fill up the fork with oil and when I rode it was way to stiff. so I took some oil out so that it was just covering the springs. I like the ride much better. did a 300 mile ride the weekend after I lowered the oil level handle well. I think I might try a lighter weight oil next time I changed oil in my forks. if your wounding I'm 240lb 6'2"

Title: Re: Setting Up the S40 Suspension
Post by Ruttly on 08/14/19 at 03:47:25

Follow the instructions that come with the Progressive springs for proper fork oil level. Simple. I used type F ATF. It was cheap & about the same as 15wt fork oil. Over all forks work fine , maybe a little harsh at slow speeds on a rough road but at speed handles nice & tight. Maybe try some 10 wt fork oil when it time to change it.

Title: Re: Setting Up the S40 Suspension
Post by ohiomoto on 08/14/19 at 07:39:15

Ruttly, the spings they sent me were for a Harley and so were the instructions. I ended up dropping the oil a bit to get the full ~2-3" travel when I had my forked lowed with the spacers. My forks now have the full 5" of travel and these spring just don't provide that much. I haven't looked into it, but I'm guessing they are incapable of providing 5" of travel.

For the record, the forks are using full travel with the stock springs and they are NOT bottoming out. They don't even perform all that bad, but at 6'3' 250lbs, they sit in the middle of the stoke and dive pretty hard under braking. (But hay, the front end cuts where I want it! :) ) raising the oil level will not reduce the sag. I could add preload, but that normally results in a stiffer ride early in the travel. The proper solution is to get the correct spring in there.

Title: Re: Setting Up the S40 Suspension
Post by tpyles59 on 09/24/20 at 09:21:46

I'm looking at PS for shocks and springs. I'm noticing that the part numbers that are provided in Gary's post are for Harleys. They are direct bolt on/drop in? Might be a dumb question but I just want to be sure before I order. Also, very well write up of suspension. I never gave much thought into upgrading the suspension, or even suspension at all, until recently. everything makes sense, the front end dive when braking, the blowing out my back every time I hit a decent bump in the road. I figured Id just get heavier duty shocks and see how that worked out but I'm glad I came across this thread before making any decision. Didn't even know that you could run different springs in the forks too. :o

Title: Re: Setting Up the S40 Suspension
Post by verslagen1 on 09/24/20 at 10:02:54

here's my experience with progressive shocks...

415245445B5650525906370 wrote:

All 11"

shock p/n spring p/n rate travel
412-4005 03-1310B/C 90/130 2.02
412-4233 03-1313-30 115/155 2.02
440-4022 03-1313-20B/C 115/155 2.22

For my... broad shoulders, 115/155 is just right.

I had the 4005's on the 5th preset and it wasn't enough.
The 440 has threaded preset, I assumed it was on low when I got it, haven't adjusted it ever.

remember, the shocks sit at an angle.
this will increase the force they see by about 1.4

Stock travel is a little over 1.5"
added 1/2" travel is sweet.

If you want more travel and a spring rate that will accommodate those somewhat larger in frame... look for intruder shocks.

Title: Re: Setting Up the S40 Suspension
Post by S Rider on 09/24/20 at 10:22:21

Gary,

Thank you for the very informative posts in the Suzuki Savage Forum.

I love the S40, but sooner than later realized that my back has been sore each time after riding the bike. I found myself standing on the foot bars each time I go over a bump. Now, a bit miserable about this. Then I saw your post.

I weigh about 175 lbs. and the current suspension is not working out. If I want to replace the shocks, I thought based on your post that the most suitable would be the Progressive 412-4233C shown in the attached image from Amazon below. However, Amazon says that this will not fit my bike. I have a 2014 Suzuki S40.

Next here are a few questions:

- I want to ride with my spouse or son occasionally. Combined, our weight is above 300lbs. Will the shocks still work or do I need something more heavy duty? Perhaps I need a different bike.

- For the forks' spring swap, do you think the 11-1153 springs will work? On Amazon I found the one in the second attached image. Will that work out? Amazon as above, claims it will not.

I usually work on cars, like changing brakes, alternators, catalytic convert, starters etc. DO I need some specialized tools for this and how hard it is to replace these?

Last question. If I build the suspension to support the weight of myself and my wife, are there any issues in riding and safety with me riding alone most of the time with heavy duty shocks and springs?

I appreciate your help in answering these questions and for your time. If anyone had a similar story, I'd like to hear your opinion too. ::)

Regards,

Title: Re: Setting Up the S40 Suspension
Post by S Rider on 09/24/20 at 10:52:44

Oops! Forgot to attach images...

Shocks: https://photos.app.goo.gl/4My2DmrEzfxCqkL58
Springs: https://photos.google.com/photo/AF1QipOYaa-SX7urFnvh4tv3xlSbMxmLqwXPhveLeoE2

Bike: https://photos.google.com/photo/AF1QipOdiia4uAWHEG5NyzgnFWP5sR1a0g-7koKu2uAU

Title: Re: Setting Up the S40 Suspension
Post by LANCER on 09/24/20 at 11:52:03

I may have missed it in my scan but when using Progressive shocks you will need to get a set of 14mm inserts for the Savage. They are about $12/set the last time I bought some...its been a few years.
Progressive uses inserts of various sizes so the shocks will fit many applications.

Title: Re: Setting Up the S40 Suspension
Post by tpyles59 on 09/24/20 at 12:02:53

212C232E283F7F7A4D0 wrote:

Title: Re: Setting Up the S40 Suspension
Post by Gary_in_NJ on 09/24/20 at 17:41:48

Progressive Shocks in the 412 and 430 series will fit. You need to call Progressive for the fitment. I believe they are the same fitment as the S50 shocks with a bushing change to 14mm.

Regarding riding solo and two-up, if you often ride solo with occasional two-up riding, get shocks with spring rates suitable for your weight. When riding two-up you will need to add additional preload. If you often ride two-up, get a pair of shocks for the combined weight of you and your passenger, however this configuration will be punishing when riding alone.

Title: Re: Setting Up the S40 Suspension
Post by LANCER on 09/25/20 at 08:55:54

2B2F26333A2C6A665F0 wrote:

[quote author=212C232E283F7F7A4D0 link=1498156004/75#78 date=1600973523]I may have missed it in my scan but when using Progressive shocks you will need to get a set of 14mm inserts for the Savage. They are about $12/set the last time I bought some...its been a few years.
Progressive uses inserts of various sizes so the shocks will fit many applications.

Thanks Lancer! Hey, I've had my eyes on the 96mm dr piston and the stage 3 cam for a while now. I'm hoping that the cam will still be available when I am ready to pull the plug but if it does happen to sell, would you be able to get one made if I sent you my cam? Thanks
[/quote]

Stage 3’s will be available as long as folks help by exchanging their cam cores during a purchase. They can be made out of a LS650 cam blank but the price jumps $100 for that, so it would be a flat $399 with no core exchange.
Sooooo EXCHANGE YOUR CAM CORES fellas.

Title: Re: Setting Up the S40 Suspension
Post by S Rider on 09/25/20 at 09:45:38

7C767278737A7E77292F2B1B0 wrote:

Title: Re: Setting Up the S40 Suspension
Post by S Rider on 09/25/20 at 10:06:32

I think I will go with the 412-4200, 90/130 Spring Rates. I would like more play, assuming it will add more height to the bike, which I don't mind.

Now, has anyone actually installed the Progressive Shocks on a 2014 S40? I called Progressive and they don't have the bike listed. I know S50 is supported, but just want to make sure before ordering.

Last, what if I keep the current OEM forks and just change the shocks? Any issues with that?

Thank you all.

Title: Re: Setting Up the S40 Suspension
Post by verslagen1 on 09/25/20 at 15:08:42

as far as shocks go, all S40/LS650's are alike.

once you go to 412's, don't go back or you'll think the forks are crappy. :-?

Title: Re: Setting Up the S40 Suspension
Post by S Rider on 09/25/20 at 16:38:24

Can someone please post the 14mm bushings needed for the 412 progressive shocks. I can't find it on Amazon. You can PM email me if not allowed to post a link.

Thanks

Title: Re: Setting Up the S40 Suspension
Post by Gary_in_NJ on 09/25/20 at 17:49:31

I've had luck getting the correct bushings from the shock supplier. If Progressive can't provide them, you'll need to know why. Is it because the shocks are already drilled to 14mm and they typically provide a 12mm bushing?

Title: Re: Setting Up the S40 Suspension
Post by S Rider on 09/25/20 at 18:27:10

Not sure! I just want to know what others have done. It's not helpful when many have put these shocks in their Savage and used 14mm inserts but no one is willing to provide where they got it from. Progressive does not provide much help. They just say that there is no shocks for an S40 2014.
Any help is appreciated!

Title: Re: Setting Up the S40 Suspension
Post by Dave on 09/26/20 at 03:02:55

When I needed 14mm bushings - I got them from Ebay.
https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2380057.m570.l1313&_nkw=14mm+shock+bushing&_sacat=0

Title: Re: Setting Up the S40 Suspension
Post by tpyles59 on 09/26/20 at 04:55:02

213A332033332860626263520 wrote:

I'm running into the same issue. When I'm ready to order I'm just going to call progressive. I'm sure if you called them and explained what you need they would get you set up. For example; I need 11" 412 series shocks with 90/130 springs and 14mm bushings. Or you could figure out which bikes use 14mm bushings that progressive has listed on their site and just order your shocks under that bike. Calling would probably be easier though..

Title: Re: Setting Up the S40 Suspension
Post by Gary_in_NJ on 09/26/20 at 06:57:11

Please note that the bushings that Dave provided on that eBay link show different styles and materials for bushings. The correct type or the simple metal ones without flanges. Also take note of the ID and OD; the ID needs to be 14mm while the OD needs to be the same as the eye-opening in the shock.

Member tpyles59 has given the correct and reasoned advice.

Title: Re: Setting Up the S40 Suspension
Post by LANCER on 09/26/20 at 09:54:56

2B30392A3939226A686869580 wrote:

We can’t ask by brand/model, we choose which shock we want based upon budget, then spring rate, and then just tell them you need the 14mm inserts.
If they insist on asking what bike it’s for say it’s a custom application, which it is.

Title: Re: Setting Up the S40 Suspension
Post by S Rider on 10/01/20 at 08:27:36

Has anyone used 412-4070C?

412-4232C is not available for at least a month.

Title: Re: Setting Up the S40 Suspension
Post by S Rider on 10/01/20 at 08:30:00

2923272D262F2B227C7A7E4E0 wrote:

Thank you. This makes sense.

Title: Re: Setting Up the S40 Suspension
Post by S Rider on 10/01/20 at 09:05:03

Did a bit more research and looks like 412-4056C is the exact one as 412-4232C but with the full cover. More pricey, but I'm sure it will look great.

Here's the full spec for Progressive shocks:

https://www.progressivesuspension.com/assets/files/7100-105-Specs-And-Tech-Info.pdf

Title: Re: Setting Up the S40 Suspension
Post by Gary_in_NJ on 10/01/20 at 13:07:10

They should work. There are many 412 series shocks with the same exact specs (11 in overall length, 2 in travel, 90/130 springs, eye-to-eye mounting). I have to assume that the difference is in the size of the mounting holes. As long as you have confirmed that the holes are 14mm, you should be good to go. Make sure you post a ride report.

Title: Re: Setting Up the S40 Suspension
Post by LANCER on 10/01/20 at 13:27:59

When dealing with Progressive we cannot choose a shock for the Savage/S40 since it was not listed in the catalog, at least when I last talked with them. You choose a shock you want and then tell them you need the 14mm inserts for them for a custom bike project.

Title: Re: Setting Up the S40 Suspension
Post by S Rider on 10/01/20 at 14:38:20

464B44494F58181D2A0 wrote:

The people I have found on their call cannot tell me what they have. I have ordered the shocks. I will call them when I get it.

Title: Re: Setting Up the S40 Suspension
Post by S Rider on 10/06/20 at 08:16:24

625B4640515777647D340 wrote:

Did you cut down the size of the metal spacer, or did you use a shorter PVC?

Title: Re: Setting Up the S40 Suspension
Post by Gary_in_NJ on 10/06/20 at 08:38:36

You can do either. Cutting PVC is easy to do on a chop saw.

Title: Re: Setting Up the S40 Suspension
Post by S Rider on 10/06/20 at 09:06:47

52585C565D545059070105350 wrote:

You can do either. Cutting PVC is easy to do on a chop saw.

Thanks, Gary. Your advice has been very helpful. I had a question about oil level.

I saw you mentioned 120mm for the oil. I have purchased a 15W good quality oil. Do I measure 120mm from the top of the fork to the level of the oil? Or should I just replace it with about the 14.25 Oz. approx amount that I removed from each fork?

Note that I weigh about 170-175 and mostly street riding and on rare occasion on the Freeway.

Title: Re: Setting Up the S40 Suspension
Post by Gary_in_NJ on 10/06/20 at 13:23:30

The spec for the fork oil is a 75mm air gap. This is measured with the spring out and the fork collapsed/compressed and measured from the top of the tube to the oil. This is an excessive amount of oil. Suzuki chose this air gap in an attempt to help with the fork dive, but in reality all it does is hydrolock the fork earlier in the fork stroke, making for a harsh ride.

I suggest using an air gap of 100-120mm for a fork that is properly sprung. When using a compression valve emulator the air gap can be as large as 140-150mm.

Start with an air gap of 120mm. You can always add oil if you feel that the forks are compressing too fast. Each 8.55ml (0.289oz) of oil added or removed equates to a 10mm change in oil height.