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SuzukiSavage.com
/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> Engine seems to stop at TDC when turned manually /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1498073682 Message started by robb+ on 06/21/17 at 12:34:42 |
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Title: Engine seems to stop at TDC when turned manually Post by robb+ on 06/21/17 at 12:34:42 Hey Y'all, long time lurker here with a 95 LS650 that won't even crank. I've had it for around 5 years and it's been sitting for the last couple years. I put it in the garage after I was riding one day, heard a loud metal clang, and lost power and the back tire started to skid. Luckily, I pulled the clutch in and was able to pull over. It wouldn't even turn over on the side of the road. Just a loud metal noise which I've determined since is the decomp solenoid lever thing. I put it away without doing anything and let it sit until now. I know I know, but I was a terrible 21 year old. Now I'm a terrible 24 year old wannabe mechanic and would like to fix it. Fast forward to now: I've tested the obvious, the battery, solenoid, and starter motor are all good. I thought it might be a seized piston from oil starvation (again, terrible 21 year old), but I pulled the spark plug and the left side cover off (timing inspection cover is SUPER stuck) and am able to turn the engine with the crankshaft bolt while in 5th. BUT I'm not able to turn it past what seems like TDC. Can't tell without getting the inspection cover off for sure, but the piston appears to be at TDC or close to the top. I have the back end on a stand so I can move the wheel. I haven't popped the right side cover off yet to check out the chain/tensioner but that's on my list of things to do in the next couple days. Anyone have any theories or run into this before? |
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Title: Re: Engine seems to stop at TDC when turned manual Post by verslagen1 on 06/21/17 at 14:02:47 Since you taken the big step... Take the exhaust header off and inspect the valves. They should be straight. Next remove the clutch cover and inspect the cam chain. If you're not crying in your beer, report back. |
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Title: Re: Engine seems to stop at TDC when turned manual Post by justin_o_guy2 on 06/21/17 at 14:14:08 Word... |
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Title: Re: Engine seems to stop at TDC when turned manual Post by robb+ on 06/23/17 at 07:48:23 Sorry for taking so long to reply! I got the exhaust header and clutch cover off last night. The tensioner is definitely like 20mm out so that's on my list to replace. I plan to take a closer look at the valves tonight and report back. Thanks! |
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Title: Re: Engine seems to stop at TDC when turned manual Post by justin_o_guy2 on 06/23/17 at 08:12:41 Good to hear that tensioner hasn't puked. I was afraid you were unable to reply because of the tears. |
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Title: Re: Engine seems to stop at TDC when turned manual Post by robb+ on 06/23/17 at 10:51:34 *Cue the waterworks* I went home for lunch today and peaked inside the exhaust port and there I saw a busted valve stem. The one on the right side looking at the port. I guess I'm going to have to tear it down huh? :'( |
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Title: Re: Engine seems to stop at TDC when turned manual Post by justin_o_guy2 on 06/23/17 at 11:59:30 So sorry to hear that. Cardboard with the outline of the head cover. A slot for each bolt. Know how many bolts you Will remove. Except for one about center of the cover, they all come out. You don't want to leave one and start trying to get it off. Yeah, don't ask.. Careful disassembly and Pre Locating the bits and pieces makes assembly less troublesome. The tank will need an elevated and safe place to sit. Prepare that before your hands are full of tank you can't sit down. Yeah, don't Ask, awrite? |
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Title: Re: Engine seems to stop at TDC when turned manual Post by robb+ on 06/23/17 at 12:11:43 Oh I've got the tank taken off already! If the broken part of the valve is sitting on the piston, won't I have to take off the whole head? |
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Title: Re: Engine seems to stop at TDC when turned manual Post by batman on 06/23/17 at 14:44:26 Yes,you'll want to see how much damage was done to the head ,piston,valves and cylinder wall,and if they can be reworked and saved |
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Title: Re: Engine seems to stop at TDC when turned manual Post by justin_o_guy2 on 06/23/17 at 19:59:39 You're gonna hafta get the cam out. |
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Title: Re: Engine seems to stop at TDC when turned manual Post by robb+ on 07/29/21 at 12:27:32 Oh boy, guys. It's been a long time, and I'm sorry to resurrect such an old thread. It only took getting a house, an engagement, a baby, and two whole funk albums written before I finally had the time and patience to dig into this pig. The cylinder head and piston are trashed. Who knows what happened to the piece that blew threw the piston. :o Do I even bother rebuilding with new parts, or should I just buy a new engine from the bay for $800 (which is upsetting because I bought the bike for 900 lol)? Doing a cursory search, I can't even find a cylinder head replacement from any major parts dealer. Here's the damage: https://imgur.com/a/hIVKiVj |
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Title: Re: Engine seems to stop at TDC when turned manual Post by Dave on 07/29/21 at 15:16:03 Here is your cylinder head: http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1623503159 I have a couple of stock pistons......but you really should get a new Wiseco from Lancer. |
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Title: Re: Engine seems to stop at TDC when turned manual Post by robb+ on 07/29/21 at 18:28:13 My man! I'm way into it. Please shoot me a PM about the head. Thanks Dave. What's the stock piston cost out of curiosity? And what's the benefits to the Wiseco over the stock? Lastly, any idea on how to flush the crank case? I'm almost positive I've got some metal bits from the either the valve or the piston the went through there. |
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Title: Re: Engine seems to stop at TDC when turned manual Post by Dave on 07/30/21 at 04:07:40 I will send you a PM about the head. The Wiseco is a forged piston (stock is cast). There are two models of Wiseco available ....and a few different sizes. If your cylinder is not damaged then a 94mm piston is available - if you need to bore the cylinder then you can get larger pistons in 95mm, 96mm or 97mm. Most go with the 97mm to get the most bang for the buck. Originally the only Wiseco that would fit was made for the DR650 - but it would work in the Savage. The piston offered an improvement in compression and you need to run Premium fuel. These pistons work well and I have been running a 95mm in my engine for 15,000 miles......there have been a lot of these pistons used in the Savage engine and I have only heard two failures - both of them were from the cylinder being bored improperly (one was too tight and one was too loose). These pistons provide better performance than the stock piston. Recently Lancer has begun to have some custom pistons made for the Savage that have an improved design for use specifically in the Savage. They are flat top pistons and have an improved quench area. So far I believe DragBikeMike is the only one who has installed these new design pistons and he has had very good results. The new design provides a bit more power, better fuel economy and runs cooler than the other Wiseco or the stock piston.....premium fuel is required. I can send you a stock piston for free - it is used and you would need to buy a new set of rings.....for a few dollars more than the cost of the rings you could buy a new Wiseco that includes rings. Flushing out the bottom end can be done by taking off both side cases and rinsing out the crankcase with kerosene, diesel fuel, mineral spirits or parts cleaner. If you can get the engine into a parts cleaner with a pump that would be the best as the pump allows you to wash and flush better. http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1436923466/15 http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1603308664 Lastly......I do have some 5 speed bottom ends that are not damaged and could be used to build up a new engine. If it turns out your bottom end is not salvageable you could get one of these engines pretty cheaply - we would have to figure out how to get it to you. I am not anxious to try and ship a compete bottom end - I have stripped and engine down to the basic bottom and and I believe it fit into a Large Flat Rate box when the cylinder studs were removed. I do have an engine with the stock cylinder and piston still attached. |
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Title: Re: Engine seems to stop at TDC when turned manual Post by robb+ on 08/10/21 at 08:00:29 Just a quick update: I got a new head/cover and piston from Dave, and the Versy head plug. Positively identified some valve pieces in the crank case, got that pulled apart, and everything has been removed. Nothing looks damaged in the gears, so it's time to slap her back together. Shrapnel that was removed: https://imgur.com/a/9E9e7WX I'll post another update once it's going again (or if I need help haha). |
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Title: Re: Engine seems to stop at TDC when turned manual Post by DragBikeMike on 08/10/21 at 14:30:22 Very interesting chunks Rob. Are they magnetic? |
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Title: Re: Engine seems to stop at TDC when turned manual Post by robb+ on 08/13/21 at 08:04:27 Nope, not magnetic. Kinda looks like valve stem and head to me. Ended up finding a couple more chunks and got the whole case cleaned up good. It's been sealed and torqued back up, and now I just wait for all of my gaskets and parts that I broke to arrive (namely the clutch pressure disk). The carb is already cleaned and rebuilt, so I guess it's time to keep wiping down the rest of it. :D |
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Title: Re: Engine seems to stop at TDC when turned manual Post by robb+ on 08/31/21 at 05:52:58 Aaaaaalright, I have the engine put back together and in the frame, but she isn't starting. Things I've Tried/Verified: I tested the new sparkplug while grounded to the cylinder head, and that works. Fuel is going to the float bowl. My battery is fully charged (I put it back onto the trickle charger after a few tries). The valve clearances are all set to 0.004in. I wasn't able to do a compression test yet because I couldn't find a 12mm adapter. A mechanic friend has one but can't come through until later this week. It didn't start with starter fluid straight into the airbox. The only thing I can think of (besides maybe I didn't get the timing right?!) is the automatic decomp lever. At first the starter would try once then stop. I believe I overcorrected, and I think the starter was trying too many times while the lever was staying open. I tried to set it so it would come back to where the exhaust valve would close, but I think I'm not setting it correctly. I tried setting it to the 3-5mm that the manual says, but I think the additional compression from the Wiseco piston is fighting the starter? Any tips for setting that would be very appreciated. Any thoughts? |
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Title: Re: Engine seems to stop at TDC when turned manual Post by oldNslow on 08/31/21 at 06:55:36 When you get to do the compression test that will tell you if the cam is off and the valve timing is not ok, but in the meantime try jumping the bike with a car battery and see what happens. Don't have the car running though. How long will the bike battery crank the bike before it poops out ? A weak battery will crank the bike engine for a short while but wont fire the plug when the plug is in the head. |
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Title: Re: Engine seems to stop at TDC when turned manual Post by robb+ on 08/31/21 at 09:19:38 It will crank forever with no plug in, but it cranks muuuch slower with the plug in. I don't want to fry the starter, but it gets significantly more tired after a few tries. Shined a light into the plug hole at TDC and the top of the piston is brownish, so seems promising for a spark/fuel. Lol my jumper cables aren't long enough to try with a car (tall ass 4runner), so I'll try that once I'm able. The battery is reading above 13v off the charger, but my multimeter doesn't have clips so I need a third hand to test under load. |
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Title: Re: Engine seems to stop at TDC when turned manual Post by robb+ on 09/01/21 at 06:47:22 Ok, so I definitely did not have the valve clearance set right the first time. I kept wondering about this freeplay I should be feeling in the rocker arms that wasn't there, and I ended up loosening the adjuster screws real far on the intake side and did find I could jiggle it. After a little research on the forum, I found one of the valve clearance adjustment threads, and got it with the correct amount of jiggle this time. I put the covers back on and did a compression test (turns out Oreilly's has a set of adapters :D ). I got it to read 100psi a couple of times with the throttle wide open. I know you're supposed to do this on a warm engine, but obviously I can't. Is that enough to get it started? It's still cranking over like an old dog though. Going to take it to an auto place to load test it today or tomorrow. All tests were done with a fully charged and full battery. |
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Title: Re: Engine seems to stop at TDC when turned manual Post by oldNslow on 09/01/21 at 07:29:58 100psi is pretty low. Should be close to 150 or more I think. That may not let it start. And , if "cranking over like an old dog" means it's spinning slow with the sparkplug, or the compression gauge, screwed into the head, and you are confident that you've now got the valves adjusted correctly , I still suspect it's a weak battery. Not being able to crank the engine and fire the plug at the same time with a weak battery is a very common and well known issue with these bikes. Can't you pull the battery out of your truck temporarily, and use it try a jump so that your cables will reach from the battery to the bike? |
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Title: Re: Engine seems to stop at TDC when turned manual Post by robb+ on 09/01/21 at 07:47:42 It should be between 140-200 according to the Clymer manual, but I'm also trying to consider that the engine is cold and not broken in. That's definitely what it means. Cranks super slow with the sparkplug or compression tester in, maybe 3/4 of a second per crank. Spins seemingly normal with no sparkplug in. Full disclosure: the battery did tip over on my way home from picking it up. I bought more acid and refilled it to the top line, but maybe I didn't do it right? Yeah, I'll pull the truck battery out and try that. I just hate having both vehicles inoperable at the same time when there's a child to haul around haha. I'll report back later in the week. |
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Title: Re: Engine seems to stop at TDC when turned manual Post by justin_o_guy2 on 09/01/21 at 07:50:18 If I've been in an engine ,trying to get it to fire up, I'm not going to beat up my battery and starter. You can use wd40,unless it's changed it uses butane,basically, if you shoot it at a fire and it burns,, it's Goin to help start the engine. I use ether. Prime the carb bowl. That is the Prime Setting on the petcock. If your cylinder is dry Low compression Aaand not healthy.. |
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Title: Re: Engine seems to stop at TDC when turned manual Post by robb+ on 09/01/21 at 08:31:37 Justin, please don't reply unless it's 1) in complete sentences and 2) at least helpful. If you read back, there is fuel going to the float bowl, and it is combusting in the cylinder. Obviously I'm not just leaning on the battery and starter, but you do use both of those things if you want to start the bike. I put it back on the trickle charger whenever I'm done working on it. Also, it was put together with assembly lube and the oil was added through the valve inspection covers per I think OldFellers timing chain replacement write up, so it's not dry. oldNslow, if I connect the battery directly to the starter, and it spins it under compression (with the ignition coil removed), would that indicate the battery doesn't have enough juice to do both the starter and the spark? |
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Title: Re: Engine seems to stop at TDC when turned manual Post by Gary_in_NJ on 09/01/21 at 09:54:41 If the voltage drops below 11VDC with the starter engaged, there is not enough current for the CDI. |
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Title: Re: Engine seems to stop at TDC when turned manual Post by oldNslow on 09/01/21 at 10:40:13 Quote:
That won't tell you anything. You said the plug fires when it is out of the head . That indicates that there is nothing wrong with your ignition module, the coil or the plug. With the plug out there is no compression and the starter isn't loading the battery and drawing the current down below the level that the ignition system requires to fire the plug. Quote:
When the plug is screwed into he head, and the starter is turning over the engine against compression, a battery that is weak, or not fully charged, isn't capable of (1) spinning the engine over fast enough and (2) supplying enough current to the ignition module to cause the coil to fire the plug. If you can figure out a way to hook your multimeter leads to the bike battery, or get someone to hold them for you, take a voltage reading with the bike off. A good, fully charged battery should read round 12.75V. If you have just removed the battery from a charger and it reads 13V or more then turn the ignition switch on for a minute o two to get rid of the surface charge. Then hit the starter button. Like Gary said, if the voltage drops below 11V the plug isn't going to fire. Or jump it from your truck battery. If the truck battery starts the bike you are all set. Your bike battery is the problem. before I hit post I just went back and saw this: " Full disclosure: the battery did tip over on my way home from picking it up. " New battery ? |
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Title: Re: Engine seems to stop at TDC when turned manual Post by robb+ on 09/01/21 at 11:34:00 Decided to go home for lunch and here's what I tried in order: *Tested the battery while the ignition is on. 12.6v *Tested the battery while trying to start (fiance was home): It dropped around 0.9v through each crank. Only did it for a few seconds. Last value was 9 something. *Got the 4runner battery out and hooked up (took the tank off first because I'm not going to accidentally make a bomb), it ran so much faster. *Did another compression test with the truck battery because I'm data gathering and got 100psi again. *Removed the decomp lever and it nothing changed. ***now here's some magic*** *Decided to put some pressure on the lever with my thumb, and it read up to 120psi, so maybe my decomp lever was loose?! *Hooked up the bike battery and got 110psi with the same method. (again being super reasonable on the starter motor). I ran out of time because I had to put my battery back in the truck to go to work (I build websites in case you mods ever want some help), but I am definitely going to try starting it with the truck battery when I get back home. Edit: OnS: the battery was/is new. I picked it up from Babbitts, and it tipped over on the way home. Scooped a battery acid pack from Autozone and refilled the cells to the upper line and recharged. I put it back on the charger every time I'm done doing a test or trying to start. |
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Title: Re: Engine seems to stop at TDC when turned manual Post by robb+ on 09/02/21 at 08:10:25 Tried to fire it up with the truck battery but didn't get it going. It cranked over normally though, so I think the battery I have is bad. I installed the Raptor petcock while I was rebuilding the engine, and that is set to On and I have a vacuum plug on the other side of the carb. Gas is in the tank. |
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Title: Re: Engine seems to stop at TDC when turned manual Post by oldNslow on 09/02/21 at 09:13:01 There is a bowl drain screw on the bottom right side of the carb float bowl. Unscrew it and make sure there is gas in the bowl. If not pull the line from the petcock to the carb and verify that gas is getting from the tank to the carb. When I bought my raptor petcock years ago there was a long piece of clear plastic tubing over the inlet filter (to protect it during shipping i presume). If yours had that did you remove it.? Take the plug wire off the plug. Leave the plug in the head. Attach a known good plug to the wire, ground it to the cylinder and check for spark using the truck battery. Even with the low compression readings you're getting, if all the above checks out I think the engine should at least try to start. cranking it with your truck battery. If you don't get at least a couple of pops and maybe some smoke out the exhaust then I think your are back to looking at the motor itself. |
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Title: Re: Engine seems to stop at TDC when turned manual Post by robb+ on 09/03/21 at 10:48:28 Not sure if this has anything to do with it, but I realized that I should not have ordered the cheap Amazon Raptor petcock. I tested the fuel coming from the line, and it is trickling... which doesn't seem right. Going to order the genuine Yamaha part and get that in there. |
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Title: Re: Engine seems to stop at TDC when turned manual Post by Ruttly on 09/03/21 at 11:04:03 The Yamaha Raptor petcock is the best mod for making your bike dead nuts dependable. |
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Title: Re: Engine seems to stop at TDC when turned manual Post by oldNslow on 09/03/21 at 11:25:17 4C515C5C153E0 wrote:
The poor flow from the knockoff petcocks will cause drive-ability problems when the bike is running with the the throttle open, but as long as enough gas is getting to the carb to fill the float bowl the engine should still start and idle. Did you loosen the drain screw and see if you have gas running out the drain on the bottom of the bowl. |
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Title: Re: Engine seems to stop at TDC when turned manual Post by justin_o_guy2 on 09/05/21 at 05:45:37 You ain't the first one to buy one that bolts right up but doesn't work. The OOOficial, honest to goodness ,Factree Yamaha part is your friend. They were almost thirty bucks last time I bought one. Local brick and mortar store.. I know, I Know,, everybody wants to go online, poke a few buttons and wait for the truck.. Spend a few minutes and drop a few pennies in your local economy,, even If it's the Yamaha shop. They can't help that they sell the wrong bikes. They at least have the right petcock. |
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Title: Re: Engine seems to stop at TDC when turned manual Post by robb+ on 05/19/22 at 11:27:53 I got it to start and idle! I bought a new Duralast gold battery and attached it directly to the leads rather than with jumper cables. It started for a second with starter fluid sprayed into the air-box, so I hooked up the tank with the knock-off petcock and fresh premium. It started and idled while the choke is out! It honestly sounds good, and I'm over the moon about it. Thanks to everyone for the help, especially Dave. Any amount of throttle or pushing the choke in kills the engine. I think the knockoff petcock is starving it of fuel. I ordered the proper raptor petcock earlier this week, and that should hopefully arrive tomorrow. I was just getting a little ahead of myself, and I honestly didn't think I would get this far this fast after taking another wack at getting the old thing to start ;D I'll post back once I get the new PC. |
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Title: Re: Engine seems to stop at TDC when turned manual Post by robb+ on 05/24/22 at 10:10:33 I need help :P It only idles decent with the choke pulled out and dies pretty quick once pushed in. I got the raptor petcock on, and fuel is flowing good through the carb bowl drain. I tested for a leak around the intake boots with starter fluid but nothing really happened. I did pull the carb and clean just the main and pilot jets, but that didn't make a difference either (I had fully cleaned and rebuilt it last fall and drained the bowl before pausing). My next thought was the idle mix screw but... The idle mix screw was pretty buggered, so I did the T10 torx method to get it out. I have a carb kit coming because it was cheaper to get that on ebay than a new OE mix screw. I plan to pull the carb again, make sure it's totally clean, and add the new idle mix screw back. It sure seems like the problem is in the carb, but I always suck at these minor adjustment type things. Any thoughts are welcome and appreciated! |
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Title: Re: Engine seems to stop at TDC when turned manual Post by verslagen1 on 05/24/22 at 14:38:53 what's your idle jet size? Main? float level? did you blow out the ports when you cleaned it? was it warm when you pushed in the choke? warning: don't idle it too long with the bike leaning over on the kickstand. causes oil starvation on one side of the cam. |
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Title: Re: Engine seems to stop at TDC when turned manual Post by robb+ on 06/01/22 at 08:41:59 I couldn't find the jet size on either pilot or main jet. The float level was off, but I got that back into adjustment. Both jets were clear, and I could see through them. The bike was warm when pushing the choke in. Also the bike has been on a rear stand for nearly all of the last 7 years, so no sweat with the kickstand idling. Some bad news. I started yet another carb rebuild with the new kit and good idle mix screw. I had skipped the step when rebuilding previously to remove the two screws holding on the throttle body because they were super stuck and stripped. I was able to get one out with an EZ-out but ended up totally botching the second hole. After a lot of pacing the garage, I found this Mikuni VM36 replacement tuned for the Savage (sorry Lancer, Murray just has good Google juice) and ordered it: https://murrayscarbs.com/product/suzuki-boulevard-s40-savage-mikuni-carb-kit-vm36-36mm/ I should hopefully be receiving that tomorrow with a new throttle cable, and I'll post here how it goes. I know the last thing I'll need is that Versy cam chain tensioner because I'm at 19k miles with out kinda far. Look out for an email soon my guy ;D |
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Title: Re: Engine seems to stop at TDC when turned manual Post by robb+ on 06/07/22 at 09:30:33 I got the new VM36 and holy crap, I was able to ride my motorcycle this past weekend. I've got a couple issues still, and I'll post them below. Let me know if I should start a new thread with either one of these because I knows it helps other people search. Ok, so the engine RPMs drop when I pull in the clutch lever. I feel like I've adjusted it all sorts of ways and it's still happening. I also noticed that the wheel was spinning when put in first gear on the stand with the clutch pulled in. I just removed the cover to see if everything was working properly with the arm and push rod. It looks normal? The other less troublesome issue is that my speedometer is running really slow and bouncing all over. I never took the cable of the fuel tank, and I reseated the tranny end with the tab properly. Thanks again for everyone's sage wisdom and parts! |
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Title: Re: Engine seems to stop at TDC when turned manual Post by twhitus on 06/07/22 at 10:50:43 its not unusual for the rear wheel to spin with the clutch pulled in and the tire off the ground, long as its not with any real force. The speedo cable could be kinked or just need a good oiling, when they stick it will read slow then spring loose and bounce upto like 100mph. how fast is your idle, if its trying to die out it might just be a tad to low. at idle you should be going about 10mph without any chugginess. |
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Title: Re: Engine seems to stop at TDC when turned manual Post by verslagen1 on 06/07/22 at 12:02:27 617C717138130 wrote:
There's nothing between the clutch and carb, so if the rpms are dropping then it's in gear? shouldn't drop in neutral at all. Check the clutch lever adjustment and where the lever on the case is when just the slack is pulled up. you can do this by hand on that lever. If this lever is high compared to the marks on the case, then you need to replace the throw out rod for a longer one. Too long and bolting down the case will activate the clutch. Quote:
You can pull out the cable and inspect it. A kink can be straighten, but broken strands needs to be replaced. |
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Title: Re: Engine seems to stop at TDC when turned manual Post by robb+ on 07/14/22 at 08:46:35 Through some testing and riding, I figured out the clutch was dragging. After getting the adjustment right, I noticed it would really only start to die and stall after it was warm. I got the clutch cover pulled last night to put in the modified cam chain tensioner (holla versy, you the man), and I decided to take the clutch apart and see what's up. The pitting on the clutch basket is pretty gnarly and I'm sure the cause of the issue. The disks heat up > expand > catch on the basket and don't disengage. I got a replacement clutch basket for $20 on ebay and already had a Barnett clutch pack ordered. I'm in this deep already so why not? The speedo probably is unfortunately the internal gear. It must not have been sitting right, and it got chewed up. Extra unfortunately is the gear on the transmission is also borked, so I guess I'm not using that anymore. Probably will do a phone mount with an app for that because this thing is going to stay my little reborn hotrod now. Sorry if I'm just using this post as my personal little rebuild journal now, but I very much appreciate all the help from everyone. |
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