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/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> The Cafe >> NEW CLUTCH PADS AND SPRINGS /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1497846710 Message started by MMRanch on 06/18/17 at 21:31:50 |
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Title: NEW CLUTCH PADS AND SPRINGS Post by MMRanch on 06/18/17 at 21:31:50 It finally happened . My clutch started slipping . Yep , a sudden burst of power in fifth gear results in the clutch slipping. I've got the new friction pads and springs in the shop now. I'll soak them in fresh oil tomorrow and put them in Tuesday . How about that pushrod different sizes stuff. Long as it has a little slack to get off the throw-out-bearing all is well ain't it ??? Its been a few years since I had to get into clutch repair stuff ! ::) |
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Title: Re: NEW CLUTCH PADS AND SPRINGS Post by Oldfeller on 06/18/17 at 21:44:48 The clutch actuation rods change the position of the chrome clutch lever vs the marks on the case -- you must be inside the range (lower side of case range preferably so it lasts relatively "longer"). I have changed rods 2 times now to get the pack "inside the range" and find that each life has lasted just about as long as the previous lives have done. Your fibers are not really worn for much, your clutch rod wears (shortens) a lot quicker than the friction plates do. You just need a longer rod. If you have not replaced the rod ever on your new bike, likely your used fibers are fine -- please save them for me and I will get them in September when I come to your house. |
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Title: Re: NEW CLUTCH PADS AND SPRINGS Post by Hamman on 06/19/17 at 08:12:19 As OldFeller said, I did the same. New fibers and EBC 10% springs. Made a "small" difference. But the real change was the push rod. My stock one I pulled out was 45.5mm or w/e standard length was. I machined a new one 1mm over to 46.5 and it made a night/day difference. The bike feels normal again. BUT!!!! I still have clutch slipping in 5th gear when you do some hard accelerating. I think that's nature of this bike. Too much thumper power for the little clutch on this bike. I'd do as others have and extend the rod and add in another steel plate. |
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Title: Re: NEW CLUTCH PADS AND SPRINGS Post by Dave on 06/19/17 at 08:43:17 6B424E4E424D230 wrote:
The stock clutch doesn't have to slip....even with my modified engine (Wiseco piston, Stage 1 Cam, porting, etc.).......the stock clutch and stock springs are doing the job in my bike without any slipping. If you aren't the original owner and/or let a shop change the oil for you once......there is always the possibility that somebody used the wrong oil in your bike and the plates got contaminated with a friction modifier. A stock engine won't make a clutch slip if you are using the proper oil and everything is working properly. |
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Title: Re: NEW CLUTCH PADS AND SPRINGS Post by MMRanch on 06/19/17 at 21:00:28 friction modifier You may be right Dave. You putting T-4 in your bike ? I have run T-6 before . How about T-4 w/redline ? or T-5 ?? The friction plates were well with-in spec's. It might have been the oil I was using (T-6). OR The springs might have gotten weak ??? Either way it was "Slipping" on command with a quick twist in 5th gear. I've go some T-4 I'll put in on reassembly . I'll also slide it together with out form-a-gasket to try different length pushrods . ;) OldFeller those fiber plates are yours if ya want them. The new springs were a lot longer than the factory ones and were smaller dia. also. I didn't measure them yet but they look small dia. wire also , could be they are tuff material in comparison. |
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Title: Re: NEW CLUTCH PADS AND SPRINGS Post by Dave on 06/20/17 at 02:01:14 I have enough of the older Rotella T stocked up to keep me running the old formula for a few years - I have not run the T-4 or T-6 in my bikes yet. I think Oldfeller said the T-6 got a bit more Moly in it than it used to....that can promote slipping if the level gets too high. I think that all of the Rotella products are safe to use in a wet clutch. |
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Title: Re: NEW CLUTCH PADS AND SPRINGS Post by Oldfeller on 06/20/17 at 04:13:11 Rot 6 full synthetic changed formulation over a 4 year period, as the PPM of ZDDP went down (and it did, from 1300 PPM to 1200 PPM to 1000 PPM) the amount of moly oil went up (from 0 to 20 to 40 to 70 PPM). Rot T dino was at 0 PPM on moly oil when I did my change over experiment, and at the change over the clutch slipping STOPPED instantly. No change to clutch adjustment, no change except the oil bath in the engine. Remember please, I can't say shite about what T-4 will do until I try some, and also remember whatever the results are is COMPLETELY EMPIRICAL because we don't know what is in T-4 even today, after a half a year. I find this complete lack of data very very curious, as if Blackstone Labs has some legal agreement not to test the stuff. I greatly protest government enforced "secrets" on oil composition. I did note that when the Rot T got old, minor cold start slipping returned and my oil consumption rate went up -- but this is NOT unusual and has been reported by other Rot T users in the past. It is my thought that more moly oil is being used to give back some of the protection properties that used to be handled by the larger PPMs of ZDDP that used to be in Rot 6 full synthetic. Our clutch pack is flat assed MARGINAL in design, and that is why I have asked Dave, Lancer and Versy to look at the baskets and the front spring driven cover to see if enough room could be created on Dave's lathe to allow an extra fiber and an extra steel to be added. |
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Title: Re: NEW CLUTCH PADS AND SPRINGS Post by Hamman on 06/20/17 at 09:33:19 When I went back together with my motor I used 10w-40 Yamalube that I have had for a while now. Ive put about 200 miles on the motor and all feels good just that minor slipping like others have mentioned in a 5th gear hard roll on. Going to throw in a new filter and oil and see if that clears it up. Probably will go with the Rotella also as I have ran that in the past with good results. |
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Title: Re: NEW CLUTCH PADS AND SPRINGS Post by MMRanch on 06/20/17 at 21:58:09 I got things back together today and tried it out a little. I didn't take the entire basket out like the book said too , only the center part and it worked great. Next time I'm only doing springs ... the plates were well with-in spec. The springs are so much longer I had to compress them a little to get the bolts started . and the clutch feels weaker at the pull leaver. But It pulled me up to the house from the shop so I tried a burn-out on my tar-and-chip driveway . All went well , it spun till the bike got up to about 20 mph and I let off the throttle. ;) Only left a little trench :-[ I'm adding a spring in-between the cable and the clutch lever by the motor to keep the cable tight and still let me have plenty of room off the throw-out-bearing . I made a clutch rod out of a piece of 6mm spring steel from an old rake tooth. I started with 48mm and stopped when it was 47mm , that put me right in-between the marks on the crank-case. All is good ! :) If I was doing it over , I would change the rod and springs and leave the pads alone --- I'll bet they would go 100,000 miles with no problem. I put pure T-4 Rotella in and the engagement band is extremely narrow compared to what it was . |
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Title: Re: NEW CLUTCH PADS AND SPRINGS Post by Hamman on 06/21/17 at 20:50:12 I too played around some more with my clutch yesterday. Drained out the Yamalube and put in fresh Rotella T6 (all I could find) and a new filter. I removed the steel plates and gave them a good sanding. I also accidentally had the smaller fiber plate in the back of the pack, not upfront by the two wave springs :( All is perfect now. Not a single ounce of slippage. With the 14t front sprocket this little thumper is an easy wheelie machine ;) |
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Title: Re: NEW CLUTCH PADS AND SPRINGS Post by MMRanch on 06/22/17 at 18:06:34 :-[ The clutch is slipping again ! :( I put strait T-4 in it . It stills goes , but in 5th it slips on command . :'( So , the original springs are .110" in spring material size ... the replacement spring material is .095" dia. but longer spring :-/ Today , I went to the hardware store and bought some .125" dia. springs to cut to length . ;) I'm thinking : use the length of the original springs but with the .125" material Also... I suspect that T-4 has friction modifiers . :-? |
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Title: Re: NEW CLUTCH PADS AND SPRINGS Post by Rodger on 06/22/17 at 20:55:17 Glad I stocked up on the "pre-T4" Rotella dino oil ...figure I have enough to get me well past 50,000 miles (fingers crossed). |
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Title: Re: NEW CLUTCH PADS AND SPRINGS Post by Dave on 06/24/17 at 03:15:32 MM....where is the clutch arm in relation to the index marks on the case? Maybe you have an issue with the length of the rod? Did you lightly sand the steel plates to remove the shine? |
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Title: Re: NEW CLUTCH PADS AND SPRINGS Post by justin_o_guy2 on 06/24/17 at 10:28:11 Can you wiggle the actuator arm that the cable attaches to? |
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Title: Re: NEW CLUTCH PADS AND SPRINGS Post by Oldfeller on 06/24/17 at 19:23:59 Justin is asking if functionally do you have your clutch lever partially "pulled in" all the time now ??? Me, I too am curious about this extra spring you added to your cable run "to take up the extra slack", as to what that spring might be doing to you. Our system is "cable sloppy" and that might be a bit on purpose, you know. I know, because I check for it periodically, that poor adjustment can cause slippage. The equivalent of a pinky finger's worth of force can make our clutch slip some. Since I got me a slipper too, I am going to pop my side cover and investigate some. My clutch is on its fourth episode, third clutch rod (two custom cut rods and the longest Suzuki rod, all worn short) and I want to see if my fibers have ever wore out of spec yet ..... ;) |
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Title: Re: NEW CLUTCH PADS AND SPRINGS Post by Oldfeller on 06/26/17 at 08:59:02 Step 1 check the position of the gear case lever to the marks --- is OK Step 2 Verify you have enough cable slack in the set up to allow the clutch to disengage fully. Quantify at the clutch lever at the handle bar -- lever ball end should move 3/8" to 1/2" before slipping the clutch. My lock wheel adjustment at the clutch lever pivot had gotten loose and the hollow threaded adjuster had moved out to take up all my slack. I was never disengaging all the way, thus my occasional slippage. Correctly adjusted at the handle bar lever lock ring adjustment, my slip issues went away. I also changed the oil, which didn't hurt things, I am sure. Tear down was avoided, clutch remains "GOOD". During road testing, I was amazed at how little tension pressure at the clutch lever will result in a total slip condition. Next to nothing (an ounce of pressure) will cause the clutch to completely disengage -- a fraction of an ounce would cause irritating slippage at full throttle in 5th gear. I think I could use stiffer springs -- anybody got a source for that? |
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Title: Re: NEW CLUTCH PADS AND SPRINGS Post by justin_o_guy2 on 06/26/17 at 11:29:43 I was amazed at how little tension pressure at the clutch lever will result in a total slip condition. Totally agree. Downright spooky how little the lever moves and how easy it is. If you have something added that keeps the clutch lever from having some slop in it, that is the equivalent of Zero Toe Play on a clutch in a pickup. That's at best keeping the throw out in a constant state of contact and light pressure. The rod wears even if the lever has free play. I would remove the spring and see if you see a difference. |
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Title: Re: NEW CLUTCH PADS AND SPRINGS Post by MMRanch on 06/26/17 at 23:04:26 Na The lever on the motor has plenty slack and is right in the middle of the marks on the transmission . The cable has plenty of free-play too. I think the new "T-4 Rotella" must have friction modifiers in it. Tonight I cut some .250" springs to length and put them in . The original springs were .210" and my new ones are a little longer length. The new springs that came with the new plates are only .190" , but they are longer. But they did more slipping than the original clutch. So , here I am with the .250 cut springs .010" longer than the original. The clutch feels a little stronger .... I'll try it out good tomorrow ! ;) I might have to change oil ... AGAIN ! |
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Title: Re: NEW CLUTCH PADS AND SPRINGS Post by verslagen1 on 06/26/17 at 23:11:39 make sure the springs don't bottom out. |
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Title: Re: NEW CLUTCH PADS AND SPRINGS Post by MMRanch on 06/26/17 at 23:31:52 Yea , Versey --- I wanted to leave them longer but they got trimmed till I could get a bent flat tip screwdriver in-between the coils. I rode it to the house from the Tractor shed and it did good .... it does feel stronger a little so I'm hopeful it might not slip this time ??? :-/ I'll find out tomorrow . |
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Title: Re: NEW CLUTCH PADS AND SPRINGS Post by justin_o_guy2 on 06/27/17 at 17:17:46 The throwout lever inside the cover is sintered metal. Mine broke not long after I shimmed the clutch springs with a flat washer under each spring. But, my assfaced ape brained currently incarcerated Former SIL was riding it, and for all I know he was crushing the lever to the handlebars.. Others have broken without cause. Others have held up with aftermarket stronger springs. |
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Title: Re: NEW CLUTCH PADS AND SPRINGS Post by MMRanch on 06/27/17 at 21:39:41 I broke one of those pivot things under the side cover one too. Best I remember it had something to do with a washer under the spring too ... ;D I put a spring in between the cable bottom stop and the crankcase lever to keep the cable pulled tight . After thinking about breaking that little rocker inside the case ... ::) ... I think I add some more slack to the cable ... ;) ................ So I was ridding double today and even with a cold motor I couldn't make the clutch slip ! :) Hope it stays that way. |
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Title: Re: NEW CLUTCH PADS AND SPRINGS Post by Ruttly on 06/28/17 at 20:54:40 Think I paid less than $100 for the Barnett clutch kit. Frictions , steels & springs. Fair deal , great clutch , no problems so far , and I give it a workout ! |
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