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SuzukiSavage.com
/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> Clutch Cable / Arm /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1491743506 Message started by Mekh on 04/09/17 at 06:11:46 |
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Title: Clutch Cable / Arm Post by Mekh on 04/09/17 at 06:11:46 Hi, I'm about to install new clutch cable and noticed that the lever arm is located really high relative to the markings on the engine. I have cleaned the clutch plates, so assume that is why, but... What do I need to do to fix this issue? A longer/shorter actuator pin? (or whatever it is rightfully called... The pin which the lever arm push into the clutch plate assembly) http://https://www.dropbox.com/s/0nu9isamndiidq7/2017-04-09%2014.49.55%20-%20Kopi.jpg?dl=0 https://www.dropbox.com/s/0nu9isamndiidq7/2017-04-09%2014.49.55%20-%20Kopi.jpg?dl=0 PS. I have inserted a picture, but the preview will not show it for some reason... |
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Title: Re: Clutch Cable / Arm Post by verslagen1 on 04/09/17 at 09:28:10 You need a longer pin, it may work, but what you end up with is not being able to get enough throw to get the clutch completely disengaged. they're cheap, order all 3 unless you which one you do have and I would order a couple extra long ones. I'll tell you why, I like to maximize the rod length sticking out of the clutch pack to 12 to 12.5mm, it'll give you the max clutch operation. I also grind a full radius on both ends to minimize friction. But somewhere between 12.5 and 13mm is too long and when you torque down the cover it actuates the clutch and you don't go anywhere. |
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Title: Re: Clutch Cable / Arm Post by Mekh on 04/09/17 at 10:26:48 Thank you. I can see four part no's for that part. Do you happen to know the default length and what lengths the other pins are? |
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Title: Re: Clutch Cable / Arm Post by verslagen1 on 04/09/17 at 11:47:37 no |
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Title: Re: Clutch Cable / Arm Post by norm92de on 04/09/17 at 14:28:34 Why is the clutch arm higher on the case? if the clutch is worn, even somewhat, the arm will be lower on the case. I would say that something else is amiss. |
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Title: Re: Clutch Cable / Arm Post by verslagen1 on 04/09/17 at 14:59:08 I've assumed that you just took up the slack in the cable and not disengaged the clutch? disk wear, arm goes down rod wear, arm goes up |
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Title: Re: Clutch Cable / Arm Post by norm92de on 04/10/17 at 10:10:59 That brings up a question. Which wears out most the rod or the clutch plates? I guess it depends on how the clutch is used/abused. Probably sitting at lights in gear is also a factor. :-/ |
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Title: Re: Clutch Cable / Arm Post by batman on 04/10/17 at 12:45:19 The rod,when you squeeze in the clutch the plates disengage ,there is no wear.There has only been ONE report of someone actually having worn the clutch plates to the point of replacement. |
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Title: Re: Clutch Cable / Arm Post by youzguyz on 04/10/17 at 13:11:47 4C646A69010 wrote:
Ron Ayers says: http://www.ronayers.com/oemparts/a/suz/50d32fb6f8700232d0b3d922/clutch 22-1ROD, CLUTCH PUSH (L:44.5MM) p/n 23111-24B00-445 22-2ROD, CLUTCH PUSH (L:45.5MM) p/n 23111-24B00-455 22-3ROD, CLUTCH PUSH (L:46.5MM) p/n 23111-24B00-465 |
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Title: Re: Clutch Cable / Arm Post by youzguyz on 04/10/17 at 13:16:29 4142574E424D171B230 wrote:
You MIGHT be talking about me. I wore my clutch out, and I got a gently used one from Lancer. Now I THINK, I used the push rod he sent me, but I can't be sure. I KNOW that the arm was right where it was suppose to be when I put it all together. So, if I replaced the rod, then the original is setting here on my desk right now, and it is 45.5 mm long. No wear. Now, when I stop at a light or something, I normally put the bike in neutral and release the clutch. If someone else is in the habit of keeping the bike in gear and the clutch lever pulled in, they would likely see more wear on the rod. |
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Title: Re: Clutch Cable / Arm Post by norm92de on 04/10/17 at 14:32:38 I leave my bike in gear at a light because it clunks horribly when I put it in gear after stopping. I can't stand the clunk. :'( |
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Title: Re: Clutch Cable / Arm Post by batman on 04/10/17 at 15:00:14 I leave my bike in gear because I think being in neutral is dangerous! I don't want to be fiddling around trying to get my bike in gear if a car behind me doesn't appear to stopping in time and is about to drive me into the car ahead or into the intersection 's cross traffic I want to be able to move NOW! .I'll gladly pay the price of a new clutch push rod ,rather than die. |
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Title: Re: Clutch Cable / Arm Post by norm92de on 04/10/17 at 15:13:33 I didn't think that applied to you Caped Crusader, you can just fly over the intersection and leave the bike to the traffic. ;) |
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Title: Re: Clutch Cable / Arm Post by justin_o_guy2 on 04/10/17 at 16:40:41 43554F405D4F43403A0 wrote:
Ron Ayers says: http://www.ronayers.com/oemparts/a/suz/50d32fb6f8700232d0b3d922/clutch 22-1ROD, CLUTCH PUSH (L:44.5MM) p/n 23111-24B00-445 22-2ROD, CLUTCH PUSH (L:45.5MM) p/n 23111-24B00-455 22-3ROD, CLUTCH PUSH (L:46.5MM) Which one is the stock length? |
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Title: Re: Clutch Cable / Arm Post by norm92de on 04/11/17 at 13:27:39 Justin, I don't know, but My guess is that the middle length is stock. 45.5mm. |
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Title: Re: Clutch Cable / Arm Post by batman on 04/11/17 at 20:22:47 Norm ,batman doesn't fly ,you must be thinking of superman. |
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Title: Re: Clutch Cable / Arm Post by Dave on 04/12/17 at 02:38:11 22233E21757E28294C0 wrote:
Here is some good informational reading: http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1246935676/0 |
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Title: Re: Clutch Cable / Arm Post by Mekh on 04/12/17 at 04:03:48 544750514E4345474C13220 wrote:
Loooong process in a few sentences: - I have had the clutch completely disassembled, while I had the engine apart anyway for replacement of rocker arms and camshaft. - I cleaned and carefully lapped the clutch plates, checking that they are still within spec's. - Assembled the clutch - Few days back I put the clutch cover back on and wanted to install a new clutch cable. - When I grab the lever arm and lift it up to put the cable on, the lever goes up a lot higher than I expected it to. This it what is shown on the photo I tried to attach. I did not expect this to happen, and I would assume that with thinner plates the lever should go downwards, if anything, and not upwards. This prompted me to make this post in order to hear any ideas of what I could/should check before I either order some new pins or make one myself. PS. I used to be able to link to photos in my Dropbox, but it seems this BB no longer parses the link or something... Any ideas on how I can show you some photos? :-? PPS. You can see all the photos I have taken of the work I've done during the winter in this folder. The very last (so far) photo is the one I tried showing in the first post. https://www.dropbox.com/sh/kwreqplwwbcngxj/AAA2xczWMY96BHtPkQWtww-9a?dl=0 |
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Title: Re: Clutch Cable / Arm Post by Dave on 04/12/17 at 04:52:42 Mekh: Since the lever is pulled upward to move the plates apart and release the clutch.....it would seem logical that thinner plates would cause the lever to move downward. This theory is also supported by the fact that as clutch plates wear....the slack in the cable goes away (lever moving down). Since the clutch is pushed apart by the internal rod - a shorter rod is required as the clutch wears. This does seem to go against what the other posts have indicated.....it seems the common problem is the lever moving too far upward as the clutch (or rod) wears. I need to go read through the clutch thread and get a butter understanding of how the clutch works on this bike....as it seems the wear is "backwards" to logic. I do remember when I have a clutch apart and sitting in my hands I can reason through what is happening - but at the moment I am just a bit confused about it. Here is a long thread on the issue....at the moment I can't read through it all (busy at work). http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1270678838/0 |
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Title: Re: Clutch Cable / Arm Post by Mekh on 04/12/17 at 05:14:12 My simplified understanding of it is: - Pulling the lever up, pushes the pin in and thereby the plates apart, which sort-of equals thicker plates. - Thinner plates should then push out the pin, which pushes DOWN the lever. Which is the opposite of what I'm seeing here. |
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Title: Re: Clutch Cable / Arm Post by Mekh on 04/12/17 at 05:20:09 Just-an-idea: Say I have grinded the plates and thereby "raised" the surface of the plates, making them somewhat "hairy". When I measure the thickness of the plates, this is done on a comparatively small area, so may compress the "hairyness". While when the clutch have to compress the "hairyness" it is over a very large area, which could mean it cannot compress them as much. This resulting in some relatively thick plates, until first run/use? Does this sound plausible and/or make sense? :-? PS. Please excuse my English/American, not my native language so sometimes have to use some descriptive words instead :) |
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Title: Re: Clutch Cable / Arm Post by norm92de on 04/12/17 at 05:59:26 Mekh, You don't have to apologize for your English. Which is excellent by the way. :) |
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Title: Re: Clutch Cable / Arm Post by verslagen1 on 04/12/17 at 07:58:07 The process is; open the picture in the browser, right click and copy image location, goto the place where you want the pic, click http://suzukisavage.com/yabb2.2/Templates/Forum/default/img.gif, place the cursor between the 2 brackets "][" (should automatically be there) and paste the pic location. Warning, this will be the original size, preferred size is either 640... or 800... there are size controls in the location, so play with those to resize. http://https://photos-4.dropbox.com/t/2/AAA2G_IQHXKwQQOVTVSvtuqr34txz0VnhLzsA6wAssfkCg/12/295041/jpeg/32x32/3/1492023600/0/2/2017-04-09%2014.49.55.jpg/ELfUNhjw2s_EAyACKAI/gaQTwvLW_phaadQk-pZmzUEWovneHCPYbU4T8NGi3vA?dl=0&size=640x480&size_mode=3 |
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Title: Re: Clutch Cable / Arm Post by Mekh on 04/12/17 at 12:42:47 I have been looking at drawings in Clymers and been thinking and I really cannot see what I could possibly have assembled wrong... but pretty sure I must have done something wrong. :( Any and all ideas are more than welcome. |
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Title: Re: Clutch Cable / Arm Post by verslagen1 on 04/12/17 at 12:53:02 5B737D7E160 wrote:
Awe sh!t there's an error in that. http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1119775997 Scroll down to #10 |
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Title: Re: Clutch Cable / Arm Post by Mekh on 04/12/17 at 13:12:35 hmmm, guess I have to take it apart and check it all... sigh Although, will that error change the "thickness" of the clutch package and result in what I see? Can't really get my head around that off of the drawing and explanation. |
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Title: Re: Clutch Cable / Arm Post by Mekh on 04/12/17 at 13:44:28 Just double-checking here: 1. Clymers states that the thin plate should go on outermost. 2. Your schematic states it should be innermost. No. 2 is the correct one? |
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Title: Re: Clutch Cable / Arm Post by verslagen1 on 04/12/17 at 13:56:42 Item 7 is the outer most part on the clutch. The single [edit]large ID[/edit] plate goes nearest it. and several [edit]smaller[/edit] plates goes on after. The diagram turns my head around and your statement only further confuses me. I state it the way I understand it. [edit]Clymer's and the SSM are correct, I'm confused, not I'm gonna get cornfused. -v1[/edit] |
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Title: Re: Clutch Cable / Arm Post by Mekh on 04/12/17 at 14:03:33 I'm getting dizzy here... Think I'll go get some sleep, then re-check Clymers and your schematic tomorrow :) What manual/document is your schematic from ? |
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Title: Re: Clutch Cable / Arm Post by verslagen1 on 04/12/17 at 14:11:43 0B232D2E460 wrote:
I'll have to check, but I think they're from clymers. |
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Title: Re: Clutch Cable / Arm Post by youzguyz on 04/12/17 at 14:13:02 You might want to refer to this parts breakdown. I believe the position of the parts is accurate: http://www.ronayers.com/oemparts/a/suz/50d32fb6f8700232d0b3d922/clutch There are five of the #8 plates (these are thinner and have a smaller ID) There is one of the #9 plate (it is thicker and has a larger ID (so the wave washer (#11) and wave washer seat (#10) can fit inside) The wave washer goes on, with the bevel pointing IN. Then the wave washer seat goes on top of that. |
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Title: Re: Clutch Cable / Arm Post by verslagen1 on 04/12/17 at 19:42:40 I've checked my manuals twice and now I'm dizzy. the reported error was in error. |
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Title: Re: Clutch Cable / Arm Post by batman on 04/12/17 at 20:46:37 I've found when placing the side cover back on I had to hold the arm level to insure the rod was seated properly in the depression on the arm. |
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Title: Re: Clutch Cable / Arm Post by Mekh on 04/13/17 at 04:14:00 Ok... I've spent some time on this and part of what makes it difficult to discuss is definitions of innermost/outermost and so on, so... Innermost: towards the engine Outermost: Away from engine See the attached file that I made this morning for my own use from Clymers, so... not pretty :) Findings so far are: Clymers / Ron Ayers / MSP --> Thin disc outermost Suzuki Service Manual (SSM) --> Thin disc innermost So... That leaves me/us with an interesting question. Shall we trust Clymer / Ron Ayers / MSP OR SSM? :-? Sources: Clymers Suzuki LS 650 1986-2004: My own copy Motorcycle Spare Parts (MSP): https://www.motorcyclespareparts.eu/suzuki-parts/motorcycles/ls650p-savage-1994/clutch-620810.aspx Ron Ayers: http://www.ronayers.com/oemparts/a/suz/50d32fb6f8700232d0b3d922/clutch "Suzuki Service manual": Post 10: http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1119775997 Removed incorrect drawing (see later post for correct one)-v1 |
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Title: Re: Clutch Cable / Arm Post by Dave on 04/13/17 at 04:24:00 It has been my experience when taking apart engines that most likely have never been "fussed with" previously - that the thin plate and spring washer is on the outside.....the side nearest your leg when riding. |
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Title: Re: Clutch Cable / Arm Post by youzguyz on 04/13/17 at 04:30:54 What you are calling the "thin disk" (#20 in your diagram) is actually the single THICK disk. It is thicker than the other 5, but it has a larger hole in the middle. The wear limit specs are BACKWARDS. Besides that, it looks OK. P.S. I am staring at an assembled disk pack as I type. Here is a picture of it. When you open that image in a new tab, it will appear in the same orientation as your diagram. |
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Title: Re: Clutch Cable / Arm Post by Dave on 04/13/17 at 05:05:23 OK I agree....thin disc is the one with the larger center hole - to make room for the spring washer. And....I believe the purpose of the spring washer is to make the engagement of the clutch smoother and less grabby. |
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Title: Re: Clutch Cable / Arm Post by Mekh on 04/13/17 at 06:59:00 Thank you all for the feedback and photo of a disc pack. Going by that there seems to be an error in Clymers in that the outermost disc is called No.1 and is stated as the thin one according to the data table in the manual. Clymer Overview: https://www.dropbox.com/s/j11kx43dzb452bg/2017-04-13_Clymer001.PNG?dl=0 Data table: https://www.dropbox.com/s/418d2ocbvptko36/2017-04-13_Clymer002.PNG?dl=0 Sooo... The following should be correct. Assembly as per Clymers should be: 1. Clutch outer housing. 2. Thrust Washer. 3. Pressure Plate. 4. 5 x Friction Disc (Thin) / SteelPlate. 5. 1 x Friction Disc (Thick). With larger inner hole for wave washer. 6. Wave Washer. 7. Wave Washer Seat. 8. Clutch hub. Also updated attached schematic. |
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Title: Re: Clutch Cable / Arm Post by youzguyz on 04/13/17 at 07:09:53 Your revised diagram looks good to me. If everyone concurs it should be chiseled in stone and put in the tech reference. :D |
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Title: Re: Clutch Cable / Arm Post by Mekh on 04/13/17 at 07:50:59 Some photos I just took... Anyone who can spot anything amiss? Looks fine to me, based on what we have discussed... :-? Any ideas on a good next step? https://www.dropbox.com/s/akxk5s4fa6j1qze/2017-04-13%2016.35.35.jpg?dl=0 https://www.dropbox.com/s/bo236910m2hec4m/2017-04-13%2016.41.04.jpg?dl=0 https://www.dropbox.com/s/d0ew8z17qbhxlnc/2017-04-13%2016.41.13.jpg?dl=0 https://www.dropbox.com/s/nc0nu2v9i6oys78/2017-04-13%2016.42.01.jpg?dl=0 |
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Title: Re: Clutch Cable / Arm Post by youzguyz on 04/13/17 at 08:21:38 Looks OK to me. Next step: Put on the clutch cover with the gasket in place, but only use a few bolts to hold it tight to the case. Lift up on the lever GENTLY, (use a rubber band to lift it) so all you are doing is taking out the slack. See where the arm falls in relation to the index marks. If still too high, you need a longer push rod |
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Title: Re: Clutch Cable / Arm Post by Dave on 04/13/17 at 08:33:03 How many mm is the rod sticking out from the clutch housing? |
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Title: Re: Clutch Cable / Arm Post by Mekh on 04/13/17 at 08:34:30 I have reached the same conclusion, however... My understanding from some posts here was that the lever would move downwards as the plates got worn. I have this gutfeeling something is not right. What grinding I have done should not result in what I see, sooo... I will take it apart and go over it thoroughly. |
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Title: Re: Clutch Cable / Arm Post by Mekh on 04/13/17 at 09:52:12 Ahemmm..... http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_S5dFdpF6xm0/S0Z1VmZY-hI/AAAAAAAAA9U/PmFRVqamrFo/s400/embarrassed_chimpanzee.jpg This is embarrasing... It turns out that I must have been drunk, delirious and/or out of my mind when I assembled the clutch. For whatever reason the washer between the clutch pressure plate and house I think it's called was kinda free floating rather than on the shaft, which in turn meant that the disc-basket was thicker than it should be and therefore I saw the result I did. If I'm to take and share anything useful from this, it must be that if you see something that makes no sense.... double-check. There's most likely a reason it makes no sense :) After having disassembled the entire clutch and re-assembled it, correctly, it seems that the lever is pretty much exactly where it should be. Will get back to you with the final verdict as soon as I have had dinner. https://www.dropbox.com/s/jlade15fogsa2d3/2017-04-13%2017.35.53.jpg?dl=0 |
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Title: Re: Clutch Cable / Arm Post by justin_o_guy2 on 04/13/17 at 10:17:30 if you see something that makes no sense.... double-check That's what opened my eyes as a young boy. |
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Title: Re: Clutch Cable / Arm Post by youzguyz on 04/13/17 at 10:28:04 Good catch. That could have made some .. very interesting noises.. if you tried to run it like that. :o |
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Title: Re: Clutch Cable / Arm Post by Mekh on 04/13/17 at 11:16:28 6C7A606F72606C6F150 wrote:
ooh, yes... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dRs4k2opBXA |
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Title: Re: Clutch Cable / Arm Post by Mekh on 04/13/17 at 12:30:37 https://www.dropbox.com/s/soohc1wdhrypy2k/2017-04-13%2021.28.38.jpg?dl=0 :D |
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Title: Re: Clutch Cable / Arm Post by Mekh on 04/17/17 at 14:03:45 746278776A7874770D0 wrote:
If it can be of help to someone else, by all means do so. :) |
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