|
SuzukiSavage.com
/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> How bad is my petcock problem? /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1484457581 Message started by IslandRoad on 01/14/17 at 21:19:41 |
|
Title: How bad is my petcock problem? Post by IslandRoad on 01/14/17 at 21:19:41 Hey guys, I hope someone can lend me a bit of advice/guidance. The background: The bike is a 2014, two previous owners, as far as I can tell it's stock. I bought it with 1500 kms on it and have added about 2000 kms in about 3 months. I added a Dyna muffler and have been experimenting with carb jets. Currently at 52.5/152.5 and spacer at 50%. Runs really well with a little after-firing, and a very slight bit of surging at 1/8 throttle in lower gears. The problem: In the last week or so I've noticed the smell of petrol when I stop the bike, and sometimes it wafts up while I'm riding. What I've checked: I did some research on here and discovered it might be the petcock or a stuck float in the carb. I've had the bottom of the carb off a few times in the last few weeks and the float moves freely. The carb looks clean. So, the petcock is the next point of focus. I started trouble shooting. This is what I've found. 1. The vac tube smells like petrol, and when I disconnect it from the carb, the nipple is a little bit wet with fuel. I pulled the tube off and inspected it and it seems fine. 2. The air filter is dry, but the bottom part of it smells slightly of petrol. 3. I took the oil cap off the engine and dipped my finger in there - slight smell of petrol. The oil level has not gone up on the little window so I don't think it's a lot, but enough to create an odour. I can still distinguish the smell of oil (if that makes sense). What I think needs done: Based on my research here, I need to change the oil and the oil filter, and replace the petcock with a 660 raptor petcock. My questions are: Is my solution a sufficient plan of action? Is there something else I need to check? Is there anything else I don't know that I don't know? Would really appreciate any advice guys :) |
|
Title: Re: How bad is my petcock problem? Post by Kenny G on 01/14/17 at 22:33:44 Get the petcock as soon as you can and make sure it is a genuine Yamaha Raptor and not Chinese knockoff from eBay. If the oil level hasn't increased it is probably still safe to run. Make sure that the fuel tank cap vent is open by blowing some air through the key hole. I smell fuel occasionally and my bike is in tip top condition, I think it is just fumes venting through the petrol cap. One of the more experienced guys will pipe in with further instruction on whether an oil & oil filter change is necessary. Good luck. Kenny G |
|
Title: Re: How bad is my petcock problem? Post by IslandRoad on 01/14/17 at 23:04:02 Thanks Kenny, that alleviates my concerns a bit. I was hoping it's a little problem, not a big one. I'm looking up raptor petcocks right now to see if I can source one locally. Otherwise, it's ebay. I'll make sure it's genuine OEM - I got the part number from another thread. |
|
Title: Re: How bad is my petcock problem? Post by piedmontbuckeye on 01/15/17 at 06:55:45 1E243B36393305383633570 wrote:
I got mine from my local Suzuki/Yamaha dealer just to be sure of its authenticity. Took me about 20 min. to install! I purchased the air hose cap plug from local AutoZone and used a little RTV gasket material on it when I pushed it on the carb tube. I just prefer the standard ON/OFF/RES type of petcock. |
|
Title: Re: How bad is my petcock problem? Post by pam on 01/15/17 at 09:26:29 My bike is a 2015 model...Dave from the forum here came and did mine...changed the petcock...what a difference and have not had a bit of trouble since...of course i still have back firing... but nothing else..again, yes make sure you get the genuine part...comes in a white box...not knock off on Ebay oe else where ...good luck |
|
Title: Re: How bad is my petcock problem? Post by pam on 01/15/17 at 09:38:10 http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-YAMAHA-RAPTOR-660-YFM-660R-OEM-FUEL-VALVE-SHUTOFF-PETCOCK-5LP-24500-01-00/272499869294?_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D2%26asc%3D40791%26meid%3D80abc9f5fed044babcf99410e209af93%26pid%3D100005%26rk%3D4%26rkt%3D6%26sd%3D361755942903 this is usa Ebay |
|
Title: Re: How bad is my petcock problem? Post by IslandRoad on 01/15/17 at 10:06:01 Thanks for the tips guys [ch9786] I've found a couple of suppliers for the genuine part, online last night. I'm going to call around some local suppliers this morning to see if I can get one locally, and a bit sooner. |
|
Title: Re: How bad is my petcock problem? Post by IslandRoad on 01/15/17 at 10:21:06 I'd love to hear from other experienced members, as Dave said, about whether or not there is anything else I need to check, apart from the petcock - particularly due to the smell of petrol in the oil. Should I leave the bike parked until I get the new petcock? Is an oil and filter change essential at this point? |
|
Title: Re: How bad is my petcock problem? Post by norm92de on 01/15/17 at 12:41:09 I think I would change the oil at least. Then you will be sure there is no gas in there. A couple of litres of oil is pretty good insurance. Then give it a good long run to boil off any remaining petrol. |
|
Title: Re: How bad is my petcock problem? Post by piedmontbuckeye on 01/15/17 at 12:50:37 6B7A76781B0 wrote:
Now I'm really mad!! >:( Dave didn't come to my home and fix mine! Perhaps you are a little better looking than I am, but I don't think it would be possible!! ;) ;D |
|
Title: Re: How bad is my petcock problem? Post by piedmontbuckeye on 01/15/17 at 12:52:13 447E616C63695F626C690D0 wrote:
Mine was only a couple of bucks higher locally! |
|
Title: Re: How bad is my petcock problem? Post by batman on 01/15/17 at 12:59:03 Being gas isn't a good lube I'd change the oil and filter after changing the petcock,and seeing that you've been in the bottom of the carb a few times,I'd go in again just to make sure your float level is correct . |
|
Title: Re: How bad is my petcock problem? Post by Dave on 01/15/17 at 14:20:52 6A737F7E7775746E786F79717F637F1A0 wrote:
She only lives a few miles from me.....and it was a great chance to take a ride on my bike! |
|
Title: Re: How bad is my petcock problem? Post by IslandRoad on 01/15/17 at 17:18:18 I ordered one locally today. The shop is near where I'll be working on Thursday [ch9786] ... yep, a few bucks more, but all good. 7C656968616362786E796F676975690C0 wrote:
Mine was only a couple of bucks higher locally![/quote] |
|
Title: Re: How bad is my petcock problem? Post by stewmills on 01/17/17 at 06:53:15 After you resolve the petcock issue, if you still have the surging you need to consider adjusting the white spacer a bit more. I have a similar set-up and I had that ever so slight surging at 1/8 throttle and after I took another hit at the spacer it seems to have resolved my surging. |
|
Title: Re: How bad is my petcock problem? Post by IslandRoad on 01/17/17 at 10:14:25 I was actually wondering if I should remove another washer. I figured I'd hold off any more tweaking until I replace the petcock. I should be able to do that on Friday. My spacer is currently at 50%. Another washer will make it 25%. I've read on here that some guys have had flooding issues with the carb when they removed the spacer altogether, so I'm a little wary of going to low. What size spacer are you running? 7C7B6A78626663637C0F0 wrote:
|
|
Title: Re: How bad is my petcock problem? Post by Papa Bear on 01/17/17 at 11:32:59 Does anyone have experience with this petcock? https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01N3MYYUR?tag=wisdomberry-com-20 |
|
Title: Re: How bad is my petcock problem? Post by verslagen1 on 01/17/17 at 12:06:18 Bear, you don't know who made that petcock... they probably don't know either. The key question to ask is, does it have a 5/16" [8mm] outlet? 1/4" [6mm] is no good. it will vapor lock on you. |
|
Title: Re: How bad is my petcock problem? Post by Dave on 01/17/17 at 12:26:37 1F1E11101312151417260 wrote:
I know that petcock won't work if the one in the photo is the one they are selling. It has the short stalk, and the tank seem extends too low for it to work on the Savage fuel tank. |
|
Title: Re: How bad is my petcock problem? Post by norm92de on 01/17/17 at 12:29:13 Bear, Get the genuine Yamaha petcock as recommended by the Gurus on this site. If you get the wrong one you will bitterly regret it and have to pay twice. I fitted the recommended Yamaha item it fits and works perfectly. :) |
|
Title: Re: How bad is my petcock problem? Post by Dave on 01/17/17 at 12:55:25 The stock vacuum petcock can be problematic, and it has a list price of $ 100.64 from Suzuki. We have discovered a manual petcock from the Yamaha Raptor 660 that is reliable, and 1/3rd the price.....and still folks want to buy the Chines copy. Get the official Yamaha 3 5LP-24500-01.00. http://www.bikebandit.com/oem-parts/2004-yamaha-raptor-660r-limited-edition-black-yfm660rles/o/m145533#sch296443 http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-YAMAHA-RAPTOR-660-YFM-660R-OEM-FUEL-VALVE-SHUTOFF-PETCOCK-5LP-24500-01-00-/272523962201?hash=item3f73b1a759:g:DLkAAOSwmfhX4r09&vxp=mtr http://www.ebay.com/itm/YAMAHA-OEM-FUEL-PETCOCK-RAPTOR-2001-2005-YFM660R-01-05-YFM-660R-5LP-24500-01-00-/291676589390?hash=item43e9478d4e:g:Cn0AAOSw5cNYLhtv&vxp=mtr http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-Factory-Yamaha-Petcock-Fuel-Gas-Valve-01-05-YFM660-Raptor-660-E0479-/301452394275?hash=item462ff67f23:g:yNYAAOSwg3FUmJK3&vxp=mtr If you don't see the official Yamaha Part number and the white box.....you can't be sure it is not a Chinese copy. |
|
Title: Re: How bad is my petcock problem? Post by stewmills on 01/17/17 at 14:44:52 IslandRoad, I think we would all agree to troubleshoot the petcock first before digging into the carb for more adjustments. Fix and test one thing at a time so you know what does and does not solve problems...or what made them worse so you can undo it! Per your needle question, mine is a little tricky. I had a guy do the original rejetting for me on my bike when I first got it in 2012 (was my first bike and too scared to touch it at the time). We used a Dynojet kit and instead of keeping the original needle, the needle with the adjustable circlip was used. You will see in the attached pic that my clip is on the 3rd rung from the bottom, and what I adjusted this weekend was move it down to the 2nd rung, thus raising the needle. Also, for what it's worth my spacer was previously shaved a bit and it's thickness as seen in this image is 1.82mm. There is probably no way to translate my set-up to a standard needle without the adjustable needle, but I didn't want to not respond to your question. |
|
Title: Re: How bad is my petcock problem? Post by batman on 01/17/17 at 19:49:51 I believe if your problem is at 1/8 throttle you need to go to a 55 idle jet as your not really using the needle jet /jet needle until you reach 1/4 to3/4 throttle opening. I think if your at a half spacer and a 152.5 main and go any higher you'll be running rich but only between 1/4 and3/4 and will still have a problem at1/8 throttle. A 55 jet is not uncommon at sea level.A 155 main or 1/4 spacer on a stock motor is very uncommon.After firing is a sign of a lean idle circuit. |
|
Title: Re: How bad is my petcock problem? Post by IslandRoad on 01/17/17 at 23:06:18 Thanks for the info. That's really interesting. My needle only had 3 notches. Centre notch is stock them a quarter step each way. I started trying to translate your adjustments while reading ... soon gave up on that 8-) 6B6C7D6F757174746B180 wrote:
|
|
Title: Re: How bad is my petcock problem? Post by IslandRoad on 01/17/17 at 23:12:11 Thanks for the feedback, that's exactly what I was looking for at this stage. The spacer mod and the main jet seem to me to be right, going off my ride-tests. The stock pilot jet gets the bike idling well at 1 3/4 turns, which I read is optimal. I was wondering whether to reduce the spacer more or up the pilot jet. Once the petock is done, I'll go to a 55 pilot jet and see how she goes . That's the easier adjustment too :) 3536233A3639636F570 wrote:
|
|
Title: Re: How bad is my petcock problem? Post by Dave on 01/18/17 at 03:04:29 If you have fuel in the oil...or you smell fuel when your bike is parked - it is definitely time to check your petcock. If the diaphragm has gone bad and is leaking fuel down the vacuum line - the fuel will flow toward whichever end is down hill when the bike is parked. The fuel can flow toward the engine and get into the oil, or it can flow toward the air box (have you checked to see if there is fuel in the airbox?). 4C4F5A434F401A162E0 wrote:
My experience with the jetting on the Savage doesn't agree with that.....at least it seems that on the Savage the slide needle begins to work as soon as you start to apply throttle, and it even seems to me that when you have the idle adjusted to 1,100 rpm you may be beginning to pull fuel out of the jet needle (as the fuel mixture screw does not make noticeable changes when the idle speed is set high while trying to adjust the mixture). For a stock air cleaner (or K&N drop in), and a stock muffler or DYNA - a 55 pilot jet is most likely too big. You need to find the idle jet that provides the smoothest running when the screw is out 1.5 - 2.5 turns - then make the other adjustments using the slide needle spacer or main jet....if the 52.5 requires you to open the idle mixture screw more than 2.5 turns.....then maybe a 55 pilot jet is appropriate. I live at 500' above sea level, and the bikes seem to like a #50 or #52.5 at this elevation. (It also makes a difference what kind of fuel you have - fuels with ethanol require larger jets than pure gasoline). This chart shows where the jets/slide/needle have an effect, and I believe that on the Savage and the stock carb it comes with the range of the idle fuel jet does not extend up as far as the chart indicates. Notice how much influence the clip position has at 1/8th throttle in the chart - while the pilot jet influence is dropping. (The chart calls it the air screw slow jet - however on our carb it is a fuel screw jet). http://i65.tinypic.com/10elamg.jpg |
|
Title: Re: How bad is my petcock problem? Post by Ruttly on 01/18/17 at 05:40:30 Dave , On that chart , what does "straight dia" indicate ? |
|
Title: Re: How bad is my petcock problem? Post by Dave on 01/18/17 at 06:05:40 426564647C69100 wrote:
From what I can tell.....that is the diameter of the jet needle. The top 3 shaded areas on the chart are all related to the jet needle. The I.M.S is the Idle Mixture Screw, and you can see that it has almost no effect on anything but the mixture at idle speed. This is partly because on the stock carb, the fuel/air mix from the pilot jet goes into 2 separate channels after it leaves the pilot jet - 1 channel goes directly to a port in the side of the carb on the engine side of the throttle plate, the other channel passes through the idle mixture screw before it goes to a separate port on the engine side of the throttle plate. This is why the engine can still run when your pilot jet is too big and you turn the fuel mixture screw all the way in.....the other port is flowing enough fuel to permit the engine to run even though no fuel is passing through the mixture screw port. In the attached image you can see the 2 paths for the idle fuel flow. http://i66.tinypic.com/14tsdpk.jpg Here is a link to where that chart came from - it if for Keihin carbs. Although it is useful, it may not be entirely accurate for our carb. The factory has already done the work to get the slide cutaway and other factors very close - and we can do the fine tuning to correct the lean (EPA induced) condition by changing the pilot jet, clip position and main jet size. http://www.keihin-na.com/assets/1/7/slide_valve.pdf And if you are really "anal" about this stuff...you can see in the above CV carb image why it doesn't make any difference if you use a pilot jet with holes in the sides of the jet.....or no holes. The pilot jet screws into a hole that has no openings on the side, so nothing can flow through those holes. In the Mikuni Round Slide carb, the mixture screw is an "air screw", and it changes the idle mixture by changing how much air is allowed to pass through those holes in the side of the pilot jet. You can change the mixture characteristics by the size and number of holes in the side of the pilot jet. (The diagram is a bit hard to understand clearly - but there is an air passage that goes past the air screw and then into the side of the pilot jet. http://i65.tinypic.com/5zgjza.jpg |
|
Title: Re: How bad is my petcock problem? Post by Ruttly on 01/18/17 at 10:16:59 The Sudco manual shows some very good breakdowns of the round slide , Thanks Dave |
|
Title: Re: How bad is my petcock problem? Post by Papa Bear on 01/18/17 at 10:37:25 32090413020E151308000D12610 wrote:
Thanks for that Dave ;) |
|
Title: Re: How bad is my petcock problem? Post by buster6315 on 01/19/17 at 07:01:07 6B6C7D6F757174746B180 wrote:
'Surging at 1/8 throttle' sounds familiar to me. My Fuel Injected bike had that condition and I ended up spending lotsa hundred dollar bills to cure it! These bikes are starving for fuel while cruising, which is where most of your riding is done. |
|
Title: Re: How bad is my petcock problem? Post by justin_o_guy2 on 01/19/17 at 08:07:14 1/8th throttle? Only a few seconds, occasionally, and I'm off to another section of the bandwidth. If I was twenty years younger I just might be fiddling with it,, and hunting for every clue that the jetting is not Perfect.. Bike runs good, and at typical cruise speeds, Twenty, school zone, thirty and forty and fifty, round town, the loop, and smooth on the road,I avoid the 75 MPH, i20.. cuz that's just almost wide open. |
|
Title: Re: How bad is my petcock problem? Post by piedmontbuckeye on 01/22/17 at 12:43:29 27383E3924231222122A38347F4D0 wrote:
Usually, the low speed adj. screw affects about 1/4 of throttle, along with an ever-increasing influence of the jet needle, up to about 1/2 to 5/8 throttle, and then needle jet up to main jet which affects wide open. One problem with "judging" the jetting problem, is that these C/V carbs don't have an exact equivalence between the physical throttle position, and the actual slide position, because the latter is changed by the vacuum, not actual physical throttle. Other things that could affect position would be air leaks (which also affect mixture) and vacuum of the engine itself - which is affected by engine wear (rings and compression) and other factors like blockage of intake system and even exhaust expelling. Air flow through the throttle plate and the subsequent amount of vacuum created above the slide and diaphragm is what affects mostly the position of slide. Having said all that, your thoughts are correct, in that generally low throttle position is almost the same as saying low slide position. To me, there should be NO surging due to lean mixtures anywhere in the throttle range. Re-jetting is the cure, hopefully. |
|
Title: Re: How bad is my petcock problem? Post by justin_o_guy2 on 01/22/17 at 13:31:18 I'm not ever gonna Be one of those people who Know what to do with the carb based on what is happening. You get it. That's cool. I'm willing to accept less than perfect because it's too much hassle for me. As to Air leaks,, I Know where my air is leaking. Everyone around me knows where the air is leaking. |
|
Title: Re: How bad is my petcock problem? Post by IslandRoad on 02/08/17 at 04:46:39 Well, my Raptor petcock finally arrived and I got it installed a few days ago. It takes about 10 mins to fit (after you drain the tank). It's a great mod! The bike no longer smells like gas and I was finally able to properly troubleshoot my carb tuning due to eliminating the leak in the vac line. I can now add some data to the forum due to my not being used to turning the manual fuel switch on before heading off for a ride. So here is my contribution to the knowledge base: You can get about one hundred metres down the road on the fuel that is sitting in the float bowl 8-) |
|
Title: Re: How bad is my petcock problem? Post by Alex Wheatley on 02/08/17 at 08:43:13 1329363B343E08353B3E5A0 wrote:
Can confirm. I switched my petcock last week, and I've had a couple of "I just filled up with gas, so why did my bike stop?" moments. Also, firing it up, running back into the house to get something, and coming back to a bike that's not running any more... |
|
Title: Re: How bad is my petcock problem? Post by justin_o_guy2 on 02/08/17 at 08:48:56 Yeah, and the same petcock position that put the stock petcock on reserve is Off on the new one. Good for about a block at seventy. Ask how I know... Actually, I think it's Prime on the OEM. I always just pulled up and back,it's easier. It's not the answer with a Raptor. |
|
Title: Re: How bad is my petcock problem? Post by Gary_in_NJ on 02/08/17 at 10:45:49 [putting flame suit on...] Why do we have three pages on a topic that is well documented and covered? How bad is your petcock problem...the same as everyone else's. Typical symptoms, same solution. I'm not picking on ya, it's just so well documented that I don't think we need a specific thread on your particular failed valve. [keeping flame suit on....] |
|
Title: Re: How bad is my petcock problem? Post by IslandRoad on 02/08/17 at 12:28:23 You should have started a new thread in the cafe to raise your complaint about the way people are using the forum, instead of taking this thread off topic. 2B21252F242D29207E787C4C0 wrote:
|
|
SuzukiSavage.com » Powered by YaBB 2.2! YaBB © 2000-2007. All Rights Reserved. |