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Message started by cheapnewb24 on 07/26/16 at 21:12:33

Title: Broken idle screw o-ring?
Post by cheapnewb24 on 07/26/16 at 21:12:33

I'm wondering exactly what problems can arise from a broken idle screw o-ring.

The specific application is for a Keihin carb, but I'd guess they all work roughly the same.

Title: Re: Broken idle screw o-ring?
Post by Savageman on 07/26/16 at 22:31:35

What problems are you having and when? It may affect idle stability and maybe smooth acceleration. Depends on if it actually is causing a vacuum leak or not. Order part number 13295-29900 from tmsparts.com

Should be the same part for all years but you to can look it up. I chose a year 2000. :-?

Title: Re: Broken idle screw o-ring?
Post by cheapnewb24 on 07/27/16 at 06:58:53

hard/tempermental starting, unexpected stalling. Sometimes it will start on it's own. Sometimes it absolutely refuses to start without a boost. Battery isn't the best, but that's beside the point. The main circuit has a fault. After a certain amount of throttle, it just suddenly chokes down. I'm not sure whether it's still burning gas or trying to stall completely, but after a certain amount of throttle, a significant amount of power just cuts out suddenly. Hard to say it's the main only missing though, as this problem occurs while there's still quite a bit of throttle left-- half or more.

Title: Re: Broken idle screw o-ring?
Post by verslagen1 on 07/27/16 at 08:20:53

well, on the savage the tiny o-ring serves to maintain the adjustment of the idlemixture screw.

Title: Re: Broken idle screw o-ring?
Post by Savageman on 07/27/16 at 09:45:44

Did it run OK when the oring wasn't broken? If it's causing a vacuum leak at the mixture screw then it will have thoses problems you state. Maybe you need to pull the carb and soak it in some Berryman overnight then blow out all the passages/jets. While you are in there rejet it. Ask Lancer about a rejet kit.

Title: Re: Broken idle screw o-ring?
Post by cheapnewb24 on 07/27/16 at 10:17:41

It's not a Savage, but this forum community is so awesome. I've been asking the Shadow people, but it seems like the people here are more willing to talk. I figure that most carbs work roughly the same. I thought I started this thread in RSD because it was a simple technical question. Maybe someone moved this thread to the Cafe, though there's no sign of it. That's fine. Most of my threads too crazy for the RSD anyway. Being a non-Savage application, it makes sense. Here's the thread http://www.hondashadow.net/forum/72-technical-discussion/489938-missing-carb-main-circuit-2.html#post4681473.

The biggest problems are hard starting, unexpected stalling, and cutout under heavy throttle. Perhaps there are two different problems, one affecting the idle circuit and another the heavy midrange/full throttle circuit?

I've got some carb dip. Unfortunately it isn't Berryman's Chem Dip (if I'm thinking of the right stuff). It's Napa brand dip. It's that nasty, evil stuff that destroys plastic and eats babies for breakfast. :D ;D

I'm having to go OCD on removing every last bit of non-metallic stuff in there, hence my discovery of the broken o-ring.

Title: Re: Broken idle screw o-ring?
Post by Savageman on 07/27/16 at 10:28:47

That's the stuff. Real skunk juice! ;D

Title: Re: Broken idle screw o-ring?
Post by old_rider on 07/28/16 at 14:35:28

Apparently you are doing the same thing on that forum that you do on this one.
You do something "then" ask if it was the right thing.

There is a guy telling you what to do, where to start and you are stuck on disassembling the carbs YET again.

Run it with no "O" rings? are you serious? You have an air leak on your air filter intake? you mentioned it was in a FIRE?

You obviously leave out important facts while trying to jerry rig something to make it work, and not take the advice of others.

Dude, stop listening to your dad and post a total rundown of what is happening, then WAIT a couple days to see who replies, and their suggestions, THEN FOLLOW those suggestions and don't go off on a tangent that YOU think MIGHT be right.

There, that is my suggestion for your problem....post the total rundown and history of your problem, and then wait for suggestions... then follow the suggestions.

P.S. A fire... you didn't mention the bike had caught fire? or was the air filter laying somewhere that it caught fire?

I hope my post doesn't put you off... but I have been reading multiple posts by you and decided someone needed to point out your obvious faults and I was going to have to be THAT guy. (others have said as much but you DON'T listen).

If you keep posting in the same style, soon there will be no one to answer your questions..... patience is a virtue.... fix it, don't frag it up!

Title: Re: Broken idle screw o-ring?
Post by Savageman on 07/28/16 at 14:52:18

That's telling him OLD. Like my dad used to say "Get to the point G. D." 8-)

Title: Re: Broken idle screw o-ring?
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 07/28/16 at 16:41:28

Dude, stop listening to your dad .

Or, listen to him from beginning to end.

Did he Tell you to jam that EZOut in the Savage head or did he say Drill it till you can tap it?
You were within a sixteenth. That's a 32nd wall, and If anything can Grip metal a sixteenth or thinner, it's Gonna Bend it.. Driving something Into a hole spreads the inner piecs Out, Tighter against the outer piece.

But yeah, pick one.
You ask for advice, get it, argue, do something else, it blows up in your face, you ask for advice on how to fix what you were Told not to do.

And wonder how people could be frustrated.

If your dad Told you to drill until you could tap, and, from the looks of the head, best I can see, he frikken NAILED drilling that thing.. Looks to me like a bit larger and you would have been ready to tap.

If your excuse is not having the next size up, please don't type it.

Title: Re: Broken idle screw o-ring?
Post by Savageman on 07/28/16 at 19:48:53

JOG you didn't read all the threads! You are BARKING at the wrong man! Woof woof bark bark ::)

Title: Re: Broken idle screw o-ring?
Post by cheapnewb24 on 07/28/16 at 19:55:20

Dad's the one that caught it on fire.

Title: Re: Broken idle screw o-ring?
Post by cheapnewb24 on 07/28/16 at 19:59:33

Actually, I just bought the o-rings and washers, but, honestly, I'm tempted to use the carb dip and run it without orings just to see what it does.

Absolutely nuts, right?

Title: Re: Broken idle screw o-ring?
Post by cheapnewb24 on 07/28/16 at 20:16:42

6F6C647269646572000 wrote:

That's okay. Talking about the fire was kinda entertaining. ;D It's complicated. A whole heck of a lot to write about.

Do you do what everyone tells you, or do you make up your own mind?

As the Honda forum guy says, "[Y]ou have a lot of trial and error ahead of you."
Solving this problems may be incremental as I sort out all those little gremlins.

I really asked a rather simple question. I was trying to gather input on what kind of issues could arise from a mixture o-ring issue and whether my symptoms could point to that, at least the former. Didn't have to be a Shadow or a Savage. Didn't have to talk about everything the bike has wrong with it. Didn't have to go on some tangent about how I'm a such a dumb rockhead who won't listen (no offense, you're not the only one).

Title: Re: Broken idle screw o-ring?
Post by cheapnewb24 on 07/28/16 at 20:26:50

2B343235282F1E2E1E26343873410 wrote:

Yeah, Justin, Give Dad all the good credit and make me look bad? ::) He wasn't the only one with the drill in his hands. He was the one who tried to use a torch, a large tip to make it worse, to attempt to cut a small steel bolt out of an aluminum head. He hoped that his experience cutting 1/2 inch bolts out of aluminum panel boards in the mines would carry him through this problem. Problem is, the bolt is too small, and the torch head too big, assuming any torch head would do it. I had little faith that he would succeed, and he proved me correct. He lately attempted again to drill on that bolt some more, and I jumped onto him. I am afraid he won't do a good job, and I feel more inclined to do it on a drill press. At any rate, the idea is-- in the words of Frank Sinatra-- that "I did it my way." I'll need the carbide bits too. It's a $400 head. I don't want to lose it.

Besides that, today I talked to a local bike shop owner who said they might be able to do it for $75 if I bring him the head.

Title: Re: Broken idle screw o-ring?
Post by cheapnewb24 on 07/28/16 at 20:37:15

26393F3825221323132B39357E4C0 wrote:

Dude, stop listening to your dad .

Yeah, sometimes that's a good idea. Sacrificed what I wanted to do (look for bike parts) to do what he wanted (order a part for his little tractor). Even took the route he advised. Ended up going the wrong way, and by the time I got there, I had to walk out on them without ordering anything, and ended up 10 minutes late for work. Then I sucked at my work because, after all that, your mind is so far in the gutter, you just don't feel like working.

Chain reaction
Shades of passion
We surrender
Lose control

--Journey

Title: Re: Broken idle screw o-ring?
Post by cheapnewb24 on 07/28/16 at 20:40:40

Of course, I could have ended up late anyway. What I should have done was been earlier on the errands, and I wouldn't have had the problem. ::)

About that dealership, it didn't help that I didn't really like them in the first place and that they were so picky about everything and couldn't seem to get anything done. When I got there, I discovered that they wouldn't take any special orders over the phone. So, I have to drive... what... 30 miles down the road just to order a part, and then go again and pick it up! >:( At least it's on my way to work.

There was a sign on the window which stated that they would check IDs on all card purchases or something like that. Yeah... as if somebody is going to steal a credit card... and... the first thing he's gonna use it for is to buy... Wait for it... TRACTOR PARTS! ;D How pathetically stupid!!!

They must get alot of shady redneck farmers. ::)

I think we're just going to order our tractor parts through the web now. ;)

Title: Re: Broken idle screw o-ring?
Post by cheapnewb24 on 07/29/16 at 19:50:28

I know, I know, you're going to say something... I don't care... I'm going a little crazy here and I could use some help.

Here's what I told the Honda people.

After having difficulty attempting to remove the throttle plate assembly, I panicked and bought some Berryman's Chem-dip which is hopefully safer than the stuff I had. Turns out, Later, I was able to remove the throttle plate but I still can't get the nut holding the shaft loose. This means I'll never be able to get all the plastic out. .

I'm going crazy here. I don't want to wait another whole day to get the bike running. I wanted to use some dip and get the thing really clean, but I don't want to destroy the little nylon washers/bushings. The clymer's book reads like you should just dump the whole thing in the dip, plastic washers and all :frustration:

Help!

Title: Re: Broken idle screw o-ring?
Post by cheapnewb24 on 07/29/16 at 19:55:58

Yep, that pretty much sums it.

I didn't have a screwdriver handy that fit those screws, and they looked like they had been made tamper-resistant from the factory.

This has me really upset. I bought all that dip, and I've never gotten around to use it. Then I bought some more dip. Will I ever get to use it either? Does it take a whole day to soak two carburetors? Will half and hour each suffice? Or is that not enough? Will the plastic get eaten, and then I have to wait another week for parts that I may have difficulty replacing, if I can get them at all?

:( :( :( :( :( :( :( :(

Title: Re: Broken idle screw o-ring?
Post by KennyG on 07/29/16 at 20:06:27

Here we go again

Title: Re: Broken idle screw o-ring?
Post by stewmills on 07/29/16 at 20:20:06

You need a security bit set from harbor freight. There is rarely something I cannot get into.

As far as your questions about carb dip eating plastic, I have no clue. If the instructions say it will, THEN IT WILL. If someone here tells you it will, THEN IT WILL. Otherwise, it's your gamble.

Title: Re: Broken idle screw o-ring?
Post by cheapnewb24 on 07/29/16 at 20:22:06

Well, Kenny, you just made my day better. ;D

Not only that....

Disaster is no more. I got everything loose.

:)

Title: Re: Broken idle screw o-ring?
Post by cheapnewb24 on 07/29/16 at 20:25:33

Yeah, I'm rather uneasy on the whole idea of dipping plastic in that stuff. Maybe I'll find some worthless or easy to find plastic part or rubber o-ring and just let it soak in that stuff one day just as an experiment to see for myself what will happen.

Title: Re: Broken idle screw o-ring?
Post by gizzo on 07/29/16 at 20:40:18

22292420312F2436237375410 wrote:

[quote author=2B343235282F1E2E1E26343873410 link=1469592753/0#9 date=1469749288] He was the one who tried to use a torch, a large tip to make it worse, to attempt to cut a small steel bolt out of an aluminum head..

OMFG! :o The torch was only supposed to heat the aluminium head enough to expand it a bit and loosen it's grip on the screw. Not cut the broken screw out. No wonder the head melted. ;D ;D ;D

It keeps getting better. Thanks Cheapy.

Title: Re: Broken idle screw o-ring?
Post by stewmills on 07/29/16 at 20:40:44

Just because something else doesn't get harmed doesn't rule out your carb. Unless you are a chemist or plastics expert, you can't make that call. READ THE INSTRUCTIONS.

Title: Re: Broken RECORD idle screw o-ring?
Post by Savageman on 07/29/16 at 23:15:11

Can't a Moderator block and delete certain threads and certain IP addresses? i WOULD LIKE TO THINK SO ANYWAYS ! ::)

Title: Re: Broken idle screw o-ring?
Post by verslagen1 on 07/30/16 at 00:08:21

what thread?

Title: Re: Broken idle screw o-ring?
Post by Oldfeller on 07/30/16 at 06:20:59

MODERATEors are just that, moderate.

The most I would expect them to do is perhaps to move a thread to the appropriate area of the list.

The real issue here now is Alice is complaining about too many people bringing oily engines, torches and stinky carburetor dip tanks into her pristine Cafe and plunking them down on her white table cloths. Plus the fire hazard from the solvent dip tanks sitting next to the blow torches, etc ......

Alice is also concerned about her Health Department rating as she is due for an inspection. She says customers are beginning to complain to her a bit about it, too.

Title: Re: Broken idle screw o-ring?
Post by Art Webb on 07/30/16 at 06:56:48

Cheap, I have mucho experience with Chem dip
DO NO PUT ANYTHING RUBBER OR PLASTIC IN IT THAT YOU WANT TO BE ABLE TO USE LATER!!!!!!!!!!!!!
;D

Title: Re: Broken idle screw o-ring?
Post by cheapnewb24 on 07/30/16 at 07:14:01

What, Does Savageman want rid of me now?

Oh, well...

Now I'm wondering which brand of dip to use as I now have to different kinds... Napa brand and Berryman"s.. ::) I think Savageman recommended overnight. The can says 15-30 minutes... no more than 4 hours for coated aluminum. Some say that carbs have some sort of varnish on them. :-? Oh... Well... I'll just do something I guess. :-/

I honestly don't want to wait another whole day soaking carbs.

Decisions.... Decisions....

Title: Re: Broken idle screw o-ring?
Post by Art Webb on 07/30/16 at 07:19:47

overnight, if you want those puppies clean

Title: Re: Broken idle screw o-ring?
Post by gizzo on 07/30/16 at 07:34:58

I suggested yamalube carb dip to you last year. You can immerse the whole carb if you like, it doesn't harm plastic or rubber and works great. But you ignored that advice, probaby you could make something cheaper at home from diesel fuel and caustic soda or something that works better. So, forget the yamalube. You wouldn't like it.

Title: Re: Broken idle screw o-ring?
Post by cheapnewb24 on 07/30/16 at 10:01:46

Well, I got a brilliant idea. :) Use both dips! One for each carb. That lets me dip them longer and still get things done.

I couldn't get the spring and oring out of one carb, so I put it in the Berryman's, hoping the soak would get it unstuck. The Napa brand might would have done a better job, though.

The two dips are different colors. The Berrymans is very dark, while I can see through the Napa stuff. The Berryman's has a bigger, better basket. Their ingredients vary quite a bit. The napa brand seems to have more oil/petroleum stuff like naptha (its first ingredient), and the Berrymans has more weird chemicals like amines (no naptha). They do share some common ingredients, though. They even seem to smell different. Both leave a slimy feel on nitrile gloves, though. We'll see how each acts.

Title: Re: Broken idle screw o-ring?
Post by cheapnewb24 on 07/30/16 at 10:06:12

607A7E7C7D43726167617A777476130 wrote:

Thanks for the advice. If I need more carb dip, I'll keep it in mind.

Title: Re: Broken idle screw o-ring?
Post by cheapnewb24 on 07/31/16 at 08:44:04

Anybody know how much tension should go in the throttle springs? I got a tip from a mikuni site, I think. You basically just turn it in tension till everything lines up. Different carb, though... Do all of them work about the same? I doubt the manual will be of any help. It does not even suggest removing the throttle assembly. The throttle assembly has been a bit of a jigsaw puzzle, getting everything in tension, put together and aligned just right.