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Message started by Oldfeller on 06/25/16 at 05:39:36

Title: Tech talk on Rotella T & Rot Syn
Post by Oldfeller on 06/25/16 at 05:39:36

This is a tech discussion on our favorite oils, having to do with the constant slow drift in oil specs from year to year making our oils require additive packages, etc.

Secondary purpose is to educate the people who are new to the list as they often post "Huh, where did you hear that?" sorts of stuff when they read these discussions.

=======================================

I ran Rotella Synthetic 5w40 for as many years as it has existed and I have also been carefully watching the oil formulations slowly shift until early last year when Shell finally put enough moly oil into the Rot Syn mix to just barely start giving us start up clutch slippage issues on some of our more well worn clutches (mine being part of that population).

It was an early symptom, which originally went away when the engine got hot but slowly got worse until it was an ongoing nag.

At that time I proposed a test, for me to switch my motor back to dino based Rotella T Triple Protection 15w40 dino based oil and to report if the slipping issues abated after an oil change or two.

I am ready to report now.

All start up clutch slippage issues ended after 2 weeks into the first Rotella T dino 15w40 crankcase fill up. All clutch slip issues (even under mountain trip abuse) ended at that time and have not returned at all, ever.

I still used the same amount of Red Line ZDDP additive in each crankcase, so that additive use is "neutral" to this test program.

(ZDDP additive is NEEDED in each crankcase nowadays for any off the shelf sort of oil)

Worth noting, dino based Rotella T Triple Protection does thin down more over long use and it does "exit the engine" much more so than Rot Syn when you are riding on the interstates.

Conclusion -- if you begin to get start up clutch slippage off of Rot Syn, try switching back to dino based Rotella T Triple Protection and report what you see.

Since I started this effort, Shell has increased the PPM of moly oil in Rot Syn from 0 PPM to 30 PPM to more than 70 PPM (with more moly oil going into each new SL to SM to SN grade change). We are tracking the effect of this slow change on our Savage clutches, and are NOT PLEASED at what we think we are seeing.

Title: Re: Tech talk on Rotella T & Rot Syn
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 06/25/16 at 06:37:47

Maybe they are needing some feedback.

Title: Re: Tech talk on Rotella T & Rot Syn
Post by rl153 on 06/25/16 at 16:35:04

Thanks OF. I just bought a gallon of synthetic, but now I'm going to exchange it for Dino.

Title: Re: Tech talk on Rotella T & Rot Syn
Post by Oldfeller on 06/25/16 at 17:19:13

Rest easy, if your bike is relatively new you will likely see no issues.

This only shows on well worn clutches so far ..... (I think)

It also seems to be able to be reversed easily. (which is a good thing)

Title: Re: Tech talk on Rotella T & Rot Syn
Post by rl153 on 06/25/16 at 18:46:08

Ok, my bike is a 05 with 7k miles . So far it runs fine. I guess I don't have to worry yet.

Title: Re: Tech talk on Rotella T & Rot Syn
Post by 12Bravo on 06/26/16 at 05:49:50

I've been running T6 5W40 synthetic in my bike for years. My 2007 has 30,000 miles on it and I haven't noticed any clutch slipping issues. And yes I do ride it like I stole it.

Title: Re: Tech talk on Rotella T & Rot Syn
Post by rl153 on 06/26/16 at 07:52:08

Is there any problem when you switch from synthetic back to dino?I'm not sure if i should switch or not.

Title: Re: Tech talk on Rotella T & Rot Syn
Post by Art Webb on 06/26/16 at 07:56:21

If you've never ridden with OF, he embarrases riders who embarras me (not that embarrassing me on a bike is that hard to do) he is one of our 'big dog' riders
and his Savage is NOT stock, despite his protests to the contrary ;D

Title: Re: Tech talk on Rotella T & Rot Syn
Post by Kris01 on 06/26/16 at 10:23:16

I run 15W40 Rot dino with absolutely 0 problems...ever.

OF, do you have a link to specs for Rotella dino and synth that specify how much moly is in the oil?

Title: Re: Tech talk on Rotella T & Rot Syn
Post by Oldfeller on 06/26/16 at 13:59:44

My bike has everything done to it except a big piston. Nothing shows, it is jest Granny's old putt putt Savage to look at it. With a fat old guy riding it.

A Savage Sleeper special.

Surprise, you musta been asleep at the switch to let that old fart blow past you like that.

....... so speed up a bunch and go catch him in the next set of turns .......

go dude, you can do it

..... pay absolutely no attention to the old dudes footpegs or to the outer edges of his shoes, which carry on the same exact matching angle bevel .....

Seriously, there is a lot to like about Rot Syn, but the amount of moly oil in it keeps on going up and now it is well past the 30 ppm level that signaled the first issues ever reported on Rot Syn by list members. It has now gone past the 60ppm level showed by the SN oil reconfiguration in some kind of attempt to meet some kind of a new HDEO test specification Also note that the ZDDP is all the way down to the old SL car oil spec levels now .... so you gotta bump Rotella, both kinds now, 100% of the time.

We need to be WATCHING the T-6, but not being all frantic about it yet until we get some more proof and see some more tests reported about the newest formulations (yet unnamed).

http://www.pqiamerica.com/June%202014/shellrotellat6.htm note: bottle was bought in 2014

The current interpretation of JASO is totally useless now, it means NOTHING except the oil was tested to JASO MA2 specs and it failed that test on at least one particular and was given a JASO as a "default rating".

Oils that claim "JASO only" are saying they FAILED their JASO MA2 testing in other words -- how badly they failed is totally an open thing right now.

When JASO cert drops off the T-6 bottle, that will be saying something very bad, when that happens.

So far Rotella T dino triple protection has no moly in it at all ..... so far.

Title: Re: Tech talk on Rotella T & Rot Syn
Post by verslagen1 on 06/26/16 at 14:40:10

1231393B383131382F5D0 wrote:

Nothing shows, it is jest Granny's old putt putt Savage to look at it. With a fat old guy riding it.

I think I'm confused... is it granny's or yours? or are you granny?

Title: Re: Tech talk on Rotella T & Rot Syn
Post by Oldfeller on 06/26/16 at 15:31:29

My Savage is a gift from my wife, her name really is on the title.

It really is a Granny's sickle that is just ridden by a fat old man.

When I went in for my lower valve job, my daughter and my wife told me in the prep room (seriously) that the bike would be gone when I got out -- I told them that was a great idea to me, that the Kawasaki Vulcan S really looked right good to me at that point in time.

They got grumpy faced about then and left the bike alone ......

Title: Re: Tech talk on Rotella T & Rot Syn
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 06/26/16 at 21:16:55

Old dude plays high stakes poker.. good move..

Title: Re: Tech talk on Rotella T & Rot Syn
Post by Art Webb on 06/27/16 at 08:26:31

785B5351525B5B5245370 wrote:

When I went in for my lower valve job, my daughter and my wife told me in the prep room (seriously) that the bike would be gone when I got out -- I told them that was a great idea to me, that the Kawasaki Vulcan S really looked right good to me at that point in time.

They got grumpy faced about then and left the bike alone ......

Best way you could've handled it
'Take my fast toy, I'll get a faster one' 8-)

Title: Re: Tech talk on Rotella T & Rot Syn
Post by Gus on 06/28/16 at 15:17:41

Way to tell 'em OF! Gotta keep em on their heels least they gain traction!

Title: Re: Tech talk on Rotella T & Rot Syn
Post by MMRanch on 06/28/16 at 20:47:32

Your the Man OldFeller ! 8-)

It would have been days before I'd have thought up such a good response ! :)

Title: Re: Tech talk on Rotella T & Rot Syn
Post by old.indian on 06/28/16 at 21:15:58

6D7E6968777A7C7E752A1B0 wrote:

[quote author=1231393B383131382F5D0 link=1466858376/0#9 date=1466974784] Nothing shows, it is jest Granny's old putt putt Savage to look at it. With a fat old guy riding it.

I think I'm confused... is it granny's or yours? or are you granny?[/quote]

I think that I need to head back to OF's neck of the woods and show the scrawny young pup what a REAL Thumper is... 8-)

Title: Re: Tech talk on Rotella T & Rot Syn
Post by old.indian on 06/28/16 at 21:37:43

Before anyone peels OldFeller of the ceiling, one of the local KLM racers suggested that I try Bel-Ray's "Thumper" 15-50. Evidently it is designed for high performance single cylinder 4 strokes air or liquid cooled with wet clutches.....
I changed to it at 500 miles on the break in. Not cheap, but so far so good... Any one have any experience with it ???
(I realize that this is a discussion of Rot', but .....)

Title: Re: Tech talk on Rotella T & Rot Syn
Post by verslagen1 on 06/28/16 at 22:14:39

bel-ray

http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1356969717
http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1357060631
http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1317268858
http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1286052718

Title: Re: Tech talk on Rotella T & Rot Syn
Post by Oldfeller on 06/29/16 at 06:34:29

I don't get upset, I just provide data ......

We haven't had a traditional oil war in at least a year or so now, we are just "adjusting" for the new specs rolling out each year.

(hey, the poor joker can't breathe if you cover him 4 feet deep in data)

Title: Re: Tech talk on Rotella T & Rot Syn
Post by Dave on 06/29/16 at 06:43:35

I used to be a "fancy oil" junkie......and I would buy the latest and greatest oils.

I have been "enlightened", and not I use the Rotella T with a shot of Redline ZDDP additive for good measure. Oil changes are now much cheaper, and I betcha' I never put enough miles on any of my cars or bikes to wear them out!

And the coolest part is I can buy the Rotella T at any auto parts store, big box store, truck stop, etc.

Title: Re: Tech talk on Rotella T & Rot Syn
Post by old.indian on 06/29/16 at 07:40:38

OK... I won't worry about the fancy oil....BUT !!!!

OF There is a 20+ mile long straight near me...Not flat and it's a looong grade down out of Abo Pass (6,500 ft.) across the valley to the Rio Grande ((4,700 ft.) ..South on the slab. THEN we can head west again at Socorro, over the Continental Divide (7,900 ft.) to Pietown, NM . Loser pays for the coffee and pie, *New Mexico Apple Pie* of course......
* New Mexico Apple Pie*. Made with apples, pine nuts, green chili.... (and medical care for the eastern wimpies..)
8-)

Title: Re: Tech talk on Rotella T & Rot Syn
Post by Oldfeller on 06/29/16 at 07:47:03

Are you talking about a high speed (high end) race of Savages? :D

I'll let Dave work you on that one -- he has gearing changes aimed at that top speed high end race and the engine mods (and completely stripped light weight) to pull it all the way up the RPM curve to the air resistance limited "top end".

And his air resistance is less than half of what we got .......

Title: Re: Tech talk on Rotella T & Rot Syn
Post by verslagen1 on 06/29/16 at 08:14:20

2E2D256F282F2528202F410 wrote:

New Mexican Pie Run... other than a complete disdain for NMHP, sounds like fun.

Title: Re: Tech talk on Rotella T & Rot Syn
Post by old.indian on 06/29/16 at 09:43:52

Other than the area near Magdalena (NM), the NMHP are too busy trying to sneak by the shepherd to worry about minor things like rape, pillage and a couple of gangsters on speeding (?) motorcycles..... ;)

Title: Re: Tech talk on Rotella T & Rot Syn
Post by 1st2know on 07/24/16 at 21:10:58

Yeah, my 98 was having clutch slippage, lower MPG, and it backfires on shutdown. I thought it may be from my inept wrenching skills.... After reading this thread, and due for an oil change I decided to send the T-6 synthetic to the bench.

4F6C6466656C6C6572000 wrote:

It also seems to be able to be reversed easily. (which is a good thing)

Yep. Filled it up with Mobil 1 4T 10w-40 - $10 per quart :-/
Took it on three tank long test rides(last one today) - no clutch slip, improved responsiveness(torque), and my MPG went up from about 45 to 52 MPGs (not a good test, as these tests were entirely on twisty, bucolic canyon roads with no braking, but I enjoyed the test ;))

So I'll stay away from T-6. I still have about 2 quarts left, I'll just use that to top off the my various internal combustion engines when they need it.

Oh, and it still backfires on shutdown :D

Title: Re: Tech talk on Rotella T & Rot Syn
Post by Oldfeller on 07/25/16 at 08:01:43

Ironically, the Mobil 1 that you used likely has moly or other friction modifiers in it as well, but very likely of a different type in a different formulation.

Still, tell us what the bottle said and we can look into it (as well as you can look it up since Mobil 1 changes things up without SAYING ANYTHING about what is actually being currently shipped in the bottles).

Title: Re: Tech talk on Rotella T & Rot Syn
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 07/25/16 at 08:07:45

When Nobody who uses Rotella is crying and it's affordable,why use other stuff?

Title: Re: Tech talk on Rotella T & Rot Syn
Post by Oldfeller on 07/25/16 at 08:23:45

Justin, some folks just like to pay $10 a quart for oil and are used to doing just that.

Rot T (or the now slightly suspect Rot Syn) were always "too cheap to be worth much" in the eyes of the ex-Royal Purple crowd.

People who believe in colored oil (be it purple or red) are simply gonna shell over that approximately $30 per oil change please remember that shipping is extra on most of that colored oil stuff you know.

If we could find current enough specs on the Mobil 1 4T version that is being talked about, we could see what was in it.

A picture of the jug including the color of the cap is needed for good input information. A quick look if the SN rating is on the jug will give you a current rough estimate of content amounts. Mobil OBEYS the SN rating, and a SN oil simply sucks for a Savage oil.

Mobil is also very bad for putting out a new fancy graphic jug wrapped around the same 'ol car oils for the motorcycle people to go buy at a premium.

Title: Re: Tech talk on Rotella T & Rot Syn
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 07/25/16 at 08:32:03

Ohh, yeah, I forgot.

MY Baby DE Zerves The Best.

I remember having feelings for equipment... I'm almost over that. Occasionally I feel something for an antique tool..or machine or vehicle.. it's a sickness, I tell ya! Ohh, the hours spent, scraping, polishing, cleaning,

I've GOT TO SAVE this poor old thing..
Antique American tool collection, for sale...

:)

Not..

Title: Re: Tech talk on Rotella T & Rot Syn
Post by LANCER on 07/25/16 at 08:51:14

Hahahahaha ... Never to be outdone ! [ch128516][ch128077][ch128526]

Title: Re: Tech talk on Rotella T & Rot Syn
Post by Oldfeller on 07/25/16 at 14:05:33

Justin, did you pick up your new Savage yet?

Title: Re: Tech talk on Rotella T & Rot Syn
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 07/25/16 at 14:06:34

Can't go down there for about 18 days..

Title: Re: Tech talk on Rotella T & Rot Syn
Post by springman on 07/26/16 at 09:44:46

Alright, New Mexico Apple Pie run. Please let us know the date. Or, Old Indian if you are heading to one of the Dragon runs, let us know. I would love to be there. ;)

Title: Re: Tech talk on Rotella T & Rot Syn
Post by verslagen1 on 07/26/16 at 10:32:57

I'll be going thru Albuquerque, NM around midnight on aug. 20
or return run sometime in the afternoon/evening after the 1st of the month.

Title: Re: Tech talk on Rotella T & Rot Syn
Post by cheapnewb24 on 07/27/16 at 22:24:07

75565E5C5F56565F483A0 wrote:

Justin, did you pick up your new Savage yet?

What! You mean Justin is getting another Savage... And he's gonna start riding again?!?!?!?

Yaaaaaay!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

:D

Title: Re: Tech talk on Rotella T & Rot Syn
Post by old_rider on 07/28/16 at 14:08:53

Was just in a local Dollar General and they had a gallon of Rotella T for $14 dollars, going to have to check the local wally world to see if theirs is cheaper.

Title: Re: Tech talk on Rotella T & Rot Syn
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 07/28/16 at 15:58:58

$12.97 Longview Texas Wallyworld.
$16.99 ABC Auto Parts.
IDK Tractor Supply,
Sea Foam Tractor Supply is the best price in town,fergotted what it is,though.

Title: Re: Tech talk on Rotella T & Rot Syn
Post by Oldfeller on 07/29/16 at 05:29:05

This is the most current VOA on Rotella 15w40 (dino) Triple Protection. Note that is has no moly in it at all.

http://www.pqiamerica.com/May%202013/rotella.htm

========================================

Here is the same analysis on Rotella T6 5w40 Synthetic. There is 68 ppm of moly in it at this point in time, with moly increasing from 0, to 30, to over 60 ppm as the SL-SM - SN spec changes rolled through (removing ZDDP and plugging in moly to patch the hole that was left).

http://www.pqiamerica.com/June%202014/shellrotellat6.htm

Please also note that the Tech Section has zddp bump tables in it that now include bump amounts for all Rotella oils as the zddp has been put so low now by the SN grade change that bumping is now required for ALL oils to make them into Savage oils.

Tech Section listing http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1344471565

Title: Re: Tech talk on Rotella T & Rot Syn
Post by Kris01 on 07/29/16 at 16:35:28

T6 also has over 1300 ppm of Zn. Didn't we decide that over 1200 ppm was detrimental to our engines? Or was it over 1500 ppm?

I'll stick with the dino version at 1100 ppm!

Title: Re: Tech talk on Rotella T & Rot Syn
Post by Dave on 07/29/16 at 18:37:13

1A2338226160510 wrote:

T6 also has over 1300 ppm of Zn. Didn't we decide that over 1200 ppm was detrimental to our engines? Or was it over 1500 ppm?

I'll stick with the dino version at 1100 ppm!

I believe 1,200 ppm is the lower limit, and 1,400 ppm is the upper limit.

Title: Re: Tech talk on Rotella T & Rot Syn
Post by Kris01 on 07/29/16 at 18:46:48

Ah, yes! Must be Friday! Thanks Dave!