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Message started by joeman on 01/29/16 at 11:45:24

Title: Newbie - Cam chain tensioner
Post by joeman on 01/29/16 at 11:45:24

Hello everybody. So I recently noticed a tapping/knocking on my bike. This made me very worried, but after an in-depth search of this forum and a couple youtube vids, I decided to start by checking the tensioner.

And to no surprise, the cam chain tensioner was the issue (see pics).

Before I continue with question I want to thank Verslagen1 for his help via email. I look forward to receiving a Verslavy. I should be able to mail it off Monday (Feb 1). We should iron out the details via email.

Now for the questions:
1) Is there a way to tell if I need to replace the cam chain?
2) Do I need to modify or replace the tensioner or is there a quick fix?
3) How in the world do you get the pin off of the ring that holds the housing in place (without scarring it)?
4)Do I need to seal the clutch cover gasket? I was told to never do this with a Japanese engine, and rather you should use a honing stone to find out the edges of the block.... thoughts?

Thats all I can think of for now but I'm SURE I'm leaving something out. Look forward to the replies and thank you!

Shout out to anyone in the Charleston, SC area 8-)

Title: Re: Newbie - Cam chain tensioner
Post by verslagen1 on 01/29/16 at 12:15:28

383A313D28520 wrote:

Now for the questions:
1) Is there a way to tell if I need to replace the cam chain?
2) Do I need to modify or replace the tensioner or is there a quick fix?
3) How in the world do you get the pin off of the ring that holds the housing in place (without scarring it)?
4)Do I need to seal the clutch cover gasket? I was told to never do this with a Japanese engine, and rather you should use a honing stone to find out the edges of the block.... thoughts?

1. With the tension off, operate each link, carefully rotate the engine to get to each link.
put a dab of grease or something on a link so you know when you gone completely around. You're looking for a stiff link.

Also, the chain will stretch to beyond the adjustment of the adjuster... ie the plunger falls out. The factory adjuster isn't capable of going to the limit of the chain.

2. a quick fix for a newb I wouldn't recommend.

3. retaining ring pliers, most are a bit too large. use a small screwdriver to help get the pliers on. be carefull not to over extend the ring.

4. no

Title: Re: Newbie - Cam chain tensioner
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 01/29/16 at 16:47:04

First time I went into the engine I used goo on the gasket. No problems with sealing. Second time, I decided to try just a gasket. Looked good the first day. Next day, a few drops of oil in the floor. The bolts held, but, my heart was in my throat. If I had it to do over, I'd use a thin layer of Yamabond or some kinda
Neverdry
gasket goo.

Title: Re: Newbie - Cam chain tensioner
Post by Kris01 on 01/29/16 at 19:00:18

Like JOG I like to smear a thin film of RTV on the gasket. Not blobs or even enough to squirt out mind you but enough to "wet" the gasket.

Title: Re: Newbie - Cam chain tensioner
Post by MeeLee on 01/29/16 at 23:31:44

Any idea when this phenomenon should happen?
10k Miles, 20k miles, 50k miles, 100k miles???

Title: Re: Newbie - Cam chain tensioner
Post by Kris01 on 01/30/16 at 07:17:16

10k Miles (depending on how you ride). Less if you ride hard or ride short trips

Title: Re: Newbie - Cam chain tensioner
Post by joeman on 01/30/16 at 15:03:53

Thanks all for the replies. More than helpful.

Bike currently has 25500. I noticed the tap maybe 600 miles ago, but I assumed it was operating noise... It wasn't until very recently that I said to myself, "hold on now, that noise has gotten much worse!" And decided to look inside. I bought the bike with 24500 on it from an older gentlemen who I judged to be a more conservative rider (he was original owner).

Title: Re: Newbie - Cam chain tensioner
Post by Kris01 on 01/30/16 at 15:28:44

Well, let me clarify. 10K miles is when you should probably at least check the condition of the tensioner. There have been lots of them go well beyond that mileage.

She's a noisy beast and sometimes it's hard to tell the normal clatter from a tell-tale bad tensioner. Tune your ear to hear anything that doesn't sound right.

Title: Re: Newbie - Cam chain tensioner
Post by joeman on 02/12/16 at 12:13:58

I just received my new Verslavy cam chain tensioner. Dumb question... but, I install it and then pull the zip tie? correct?

Title: Re: Newbie - Cam chain tensioner
Post by joeman on 02/12/16 at 12:17:09

Never mind. looks like all my answers are right here...

http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1370518496

Title: Re: Newbie - Cam chain tensioner
Post by joeman on 02/14/16 at 11:16:36

Cam chain tensioner installed. darn thing is still knocking!!! Getting worried its something serious. I noticed the exhaust was leaking where the header meats the block. I put a brand new gasket in there... I re-installed the header thinking that I had done something wrong originally... And of course I had the bracket on upside down.

I fixed all that. Knocking still occurs at idle and the darn header will not stop leaking at the block...

Title: Re: Newbie - Cam chain tensioner
Post by Kris01 on 02/14/16 at 13:31:23

Could be the valves need adjusting.

Title: Re: Newbie - Cam chain tensioner
Post by joeman on 02/14/16 at 14:26:53

Hmmm... Not sure if I am ready to take on the task of valve adjustment. Any idea how much a mechanic would charge for that?

Title: Re: Newbie - Cam chain tensioner
Post by Dave on 02/14/16 at 14:52:22

Can you somewhat isolate the knocking noise? My bike got a loose nut on the flywheel, and it started out sounding like a tick....then got much worse and sounded like the whole thing was going to explode. It was loudest at idle, and as the RPM's increased the banging got to be less noticeable.

One other bike had this same issue....and unfortunately the owner parted out the bike, and only found the loose flywheel nut while parting out the bike, and it was too late at that point to fix it as most of the bike was gone.

The problem in locating the loose flywheel noise - is that the flywheel noise is hard to hear exactly where it comes from. The flywheel sends the noise through the crank, and the noise sort of sounds like it is banging in the block or lower cylinder. To check the tightness of the flywheel nut you have to remove the left side of the case, remove the stator with a special puller, and then have a large deep socket. (The forum has these tools and can rent them out if you want to check this by yourself).

Dave

Title: Re: Newbie - Cam chain tensioner
Post by joeman on 02/14/16 at 16:53:57

I read about this fly wheel issues... I would really hate to have to drop the oil again, but I guess if I kept it clean enough I could re-use it??

I can rent the special tools via this forum? Or from an auto parts store?

Thanks,
Joey

Title: Re: Newbie - Cam chain tensioner
Post by Kris01 on 02/14/16 at 17:16:51

If the auto parts store is closer.... ;)

These guys are awesome! We are all one closely knit family. If you need something - just ask! Someone is sure to loan you a tool, advice, help when you need it.

:)

Title: Re: Newbie - Cam chain tensioner
Post by Dave on 02/14/16 at 17:20:35

You most likely won't find the tools at any auto parts store.

The tools include a flywheel holder that I built, a puller, and a large deep socket. The tools can be rented for $ 15 - but you will have to pay shipping both ways, and provide a $ 150 deposit until I get the tools back without damage.

You don't have to drain the oil, if you can lean the bike over to the right side....I put a piece of carpet on the floor, and rest the handlebars on a stool. You might want to buy magneto case gasket just in case you tear the original.

NOTE: I need to post a sticky about the tools being available. At this point I "own" the tools....as I paid for them. The original idea was that members could donate $ 20 and get a lifetime subscription for the loan of the tools - they would only be responsible for the shipping and deposit. Or a $ 15 fee if you only needed them once.

I can't guarantee that your flywheel is loose - we only have 2 documented cases of a loose flywheel.

Title: Re: Newbie - Cam chain tensioner
Post by joeman on 02/14/16 at 19:07:32

Well, this certainly sounds like the best way to approach this situation. I need to sort out my schedule. I also want to see if I can further isolate the noise. We will be in touch soon.

Thank everybody for all the help thus far!

Title: Re: Newbie - Cam chain tensioner
Post by joeman on 02/15/16 at 06:32:45

I am still so puzzled as to why the header is leaking from where the bracket hold it into the block.... I replaced the gasket and made sure the bracket is on in the right position... Any ideas?

Title: Re: Newbie - Cam chain tensioner
Post by KennyG on 02/15/16 at 06:57:28

Joe,

Loosen all of the fasteners on the exhaust system and then wiggle the header around until you know it is fully seated in the head and then carefully tighten the two bolts that hold the header to the head. Use never Seize, or similar, on the bolts and a 1/4" drive socket and wrench to tighten it, and only pull on the ratchet with one hand. If you break one of the bolts off you will be in a world of hurt. After the header is seated and the bolts are tightened go over the rest of the exhaust system and tighten the fasteners.

Kenny G

Title: Re: Newbie - Cam chain tensioner
Post by Dave on 02/15/16 at 07:14:30

Are you sure you removed the old header4 gasket before putting the new one in? Sometimes those old gaskets are so black with carbon it is easy to mistake it for part of the head.

A leaky exhaust might sound a bit like a knock?

Have you checked your valve clearance? If it is off by more than a thousandth or two (loose)....then maybe you are getting some serious cam/rocker wear and that is the source of the noise. On the last 4 cylinder heads I have worked on - only one cam/rocker assembly was in good condition, and the other 3 had severe wear on the rockers and cam lobes - and one bike only had 3,800 miles on it. (This is why we recommend using Rotella T so strongly).

Title: Re: Newbie - Cam chain tensioner
Post by justin_o_guy2 on 02/15/16 at 08:53:53

This is why we recommend using Rotella T so strongly)

Which costs less than most oils, yet, we see people use the fancy Dan stuff, and wind up with crippled engines or slipping clutches.

And never let it idle low or on the stand.

Just because
It idles at the right RPM after its warmed up
Doesn't mean that all the minutes it runs in a year WAITING to warm up aren't killing the motor.

Title: Re: Newbie - Cam chain tensioner
Post by joeman on 02/15/16 at 11:36:11

Interesting point about the old gasket. It was basically shot. I assumed I got all of it out but I didn't do a very thorough check. I will go back in there before doing anything else. What's the best way to pull out the old gasket? Pop it out with a screwdriver?

Title: Re: Newbie - Cam chain tensioner
Post by joeman on 02/15/16 at 11:39:43

Also, this is my first savage (first bike at that). I have nothing really to compare its engine sound to. I plan on going to dealership and listening to a brand new one. If there is anyone in the Charleston,SC area who would let me listen to their bike that would be much appreciated.

Title: Re: Newbie - Cam chain tensioner
Post by joeman on 02/15/16 at 11:58:25

Here is a poorly executed video of the engine noise. I will try and take a better one once I replace the battery (most likely will be on Wednesday). At that time I will also quadruple check the header and exhaust system.

Note: I bought the bike with a drag exhaust from Blue Collar Bobbers.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E2t-v77ejpA&feature=youtu.be

Title: Re: Newbie - Cam chain tensioner
Post by Savageman on 02/17/16 at 21:06:13

I could hear a metallic knock for sure when you had the mic closer to the top end.

An old fashioned trick to isolate a engine noise is to use a long blade screwdriver. Start at the top of the engine and press the blade of the screwdriver against the engine and your ear on the handle. It will act like a stethoscope. With the engine idling move the screwdriver to different points until you hear the noise loudest.

Post your findings. 8-)

Title: Re: Newbie - Cam chain tensioner
Post by joeman on 02/18/16 at 13:32:37

Should I warm the bike up first? Or is it okay to do this fresh after starting?

Title: Re: Newbie - Cam chain tensioner
Post by Savageman on 02/18/16 at 14:02:48

Do you hear the noise when it's cold and warmed up? If so it doesn't matter.

Title: Re: Newbie - Cam chain tensioner
Post by joeman on 02/18/16 at 15:30:08

"Do you hear the noise when it's cold and warmed up? If so it doesn't matter."

Makes sense! haha.

Luckily my girlfriend is in medical school so I can use her stethoscope to really isolate the noise! Should have it fully inspected by the end of the weekend or as early as tomorrow!

I will post a pic with a circle around the area. Looking forward to what everyone thinks!

I have a feeling it has something to do with valve clearance, but who knows.... (Luckily if that is the case there is TONS of info here to walk me through the process!)

Title: Re: Newbie - Cam chain tensioner
Post by kamelryttarn on 02/22/20 at 22:50:07

Since I suspected that my cam chain has never been checked and that the tensioner was on it's last leg I removed the clutch cover yesterday and took a couple of pictures. Should I order a new cam chain or just put i Verslagens tensioner?

Title: Re: Newbie - Cam chain tensioner
Post by kamelryttarn on 02/22/20 at 22:50:38

Another angle

Title: Re: Newbie - Cam chain tensioner
Post by verslagen1 on 02/22/20 at 23:20:13

5A48580A0B5B4D58593F0 wrote:

One or the other, don't need to do both unless you don't want to double your mileage before you change the chain.

Title: Re: Newbie - Cam chain tensioner
Post by ohiomoto on 02/23/20 at 04:32:00

203222707121372223450 wrote:

-------------

Do the tensioner because all LS650s should have one anyway. :)

Title: Re: Newbie - Cam chain tensioner
Post by kamelryttarn on 02/25/20 at 03:57:02

Since I am located in Sweden it's quicker and easier to replace the cam chain. Can I still use the original tensioner or should one replace both parts at the same time?

[edit]
Should I go for "original" cam chain or aftermarket from a manufacturer that claims tougher chain with longer life time.

"DID camshaft drive chain - Made in Japan - Link pins from Carburizing vanadium The chain pin this DID control chains are attached through a special surface treatment hardened and allow up to three times longer life than conventional timing chains"

The DID chain is actually cheaper than "OEM" or whatever the others are.