|
SuzukiSavage.com
/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl General Category >> Rubber Side Down! >> I've bought a box of bits /cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1447114172 Message started by DavidP on 11/09/15 at 16:09:32 |
|
Title: I've bought a box of bits Post by DavidP on 11/09/15 at 16:09:32 Greetings People, I have bought a 1997 Savage or to be more precise a big box of bits. A lady friend of mine bought it new and put about 17,000 miles on it. Then one fateful day she ran it low on oil and the engine started to protest. She rode it home and apparently it was making pitiful noises of surrender. Her husband decided that the bottom end bearings were shot and took it almost all apart. All that was left to remove was the clutch and the alternator and then split the crankcase. At this stage he lost interest, she bough a brand new Suzuki and the bits sat in his shop for 5 years. So fast forward to last week and I was having dinner with them when I mentioned that I needed a project to get me through the winter. A deal was struck and I started to research the Savage and found this place. So my first question is, the previous owner thought the bottom end was shot however I have pulled up and down on the piston and can find no movement to indicate a bearing is shot. The crankshaft rotates smoothly with no nasty noises. I am thinking that the bottom end is OK and to be honest I really don't want to get the crankcase split if I don't have to. (I live in the boondocks to to find a good Suzuki mechanic maybe quite difficult). What I have found is that there are several odd looking dings on the very outside of the top of the piston. I also found that the oil control ring was in 3 pieces not broken but a complete ring then the oil controller then another complete ring. (I don't know if that is how it should be). My plan is to clean the head, lap the valves, hone the cylinder and rebuild it with a new piston, rings and a set of gaskets. Through this forum I see that this would be a good time to do the work to stop the oil weep, which the previous owner suffered from. I don't quite understand it but I am sure as I look deeper it will make sense. What I would like is any tips, advice or warnings that you guys might have. Any help would be gratefully received. Thanks guys DavidP |
|
Title: Re: I've bought a box of bits Post by old_rider on 11/09/15 at 22:24:05 If she ran it low on oil, it might have been the valves making the noise first... check the cam and the rocker arms for dents and grooves. Also, with that mileage on it, you might want to check the cam chain tensioner, it probably popped out. |
|
Title: Re: I've bought a box of bits Post by Dave on 11/10/15 at 02:45:22 The bottom end has roller and ball bearings, and when run low on oil they are pretty good at surviving for a while. The first two things to go are usually the piston/cylinder, the cam bearings in the head, or the rockers/camshaft. A couple of bikes on this forum (mine included) made a horrible clanking bottom end noise....and it turned out to be a loose nut holding the flywheel on the crankshaft. The oil ring is a 3 piece ring....no problem there. I have a good used piston you can have if you pay shipping. So....just where is the Boondocks that you live? |
|
Title: Re: I've bought a box of bits Post by DavidP on 11/10/15 at 15:12:08 Thank you for the replies I appreciate it. I cleaned up the head today and it was clear that the the camshaft had melted some aluminum on the head. I ticked the head with some fine emery cloth and also polished the cam shaft to remove the aluminum that was stuck to it and it seemed to spin a lot easier. The previous owner forgot to give me a pile of parts that came off the top of the head so I can't check the rocker arms yet. Thank you for the offer of the piston but I have already ordered a new one. As to where I live? Rocky Mount Virginia where it is impossible to purchase a a valve spring compressor so I had to make my own with a U bracket and a C clamp. I am sure I will have a lot more questions as the project continues but for now thanks guys David P |
|
Title: Re: I've bought a box of bits Post by Dave on 11/11/15 at 09:29:06 I made my own valve spring compressor after seeing what the local machine shop made and use. A drill press has plenty of power to remove the Savage valve springs. It was made form a bolt, a washer, and a piece of tubing that was a size that would fit the keeper. http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1344000395/0#0 |
|
Title: Re: I've bought a box of bits Post by Gus on 11/11/15 at 13:22:31 Excellent link Dave. Good luck with the top end David. Hope you bought it right. |
|
Title: Re: I've bought a box of bits Post by Dave on 11/11/15 at 13:59:52 6C637469626A3F6261693F0D0 wrote:
That build was the engine that is in my Cafe' bike......6,000 miles later it is still going fine! |
|
Title: Re: I've bought a box of bits Post by DavidP on 11/11/15 at 14:26:59 The previous owner delivered all the missing pieces this morning including the head cover and rocker arms. Congratulations to those who predicted that the arms would be shot, they are, in fact they are both concave. I saw the thread on repairing them but that is above my pay grade so I have just ordered two. I know that I am very new to the Savage and I shouldn't denigrate the design (especially here) but............. What is the deal with the camshaft just sitting in aluminum without a phosphor bronze bearing shell? Clearly if something is going to wear it will be the head and the cover. The workshop manual glibly states that if the bearing surface is out of tolerance replace the cylinder head and associated parts. Just for fun I looked up the price of the head which comes in at a eye watering $740. Kind of an expensive fix compared to designing it with a shell. DavidP |
|
Title: Re: I've bought a box of bits Post by Gus on 11/11/15 at 14:35:04 I'm new here too David. Clearly an older bike wouldn't be worth fixing if you needed a new head. I seen a couple of these for sale this fall, with serious sheet metal issues for around 700. Seems that would be the way to go. |
|
Title: Re: I've bought a box of bits Post by Dave on 11/11/15 at 16:27:10 Yep, cam riding in the aluminum head is not all that uncommon anymore. It works for a long, long time......as long as you don't run out of oil. |
|
Title: Re: I've bought a box of bits Post by justin_o_guy2 on 11/11/15 at 17:09:37 And keep the idle RPM up and, there is some speculation that idling as it leans on the stand may tend to starve the starboard cam lobe. There's a reservoir just below the cam, and if you stand the bike up before poking the button, the lobes get a bath. Bathe your lobes! I'm pretty sure mine are dirty, or so I've been told. |
|
Title: Re: I've bought a box of bits Post by WD on 11/11/15 at 18:41:24 Cam pillows can be shimmed with bronze oilite bushing stock. A competent machine shop can do the job in about 4-6 hours. Check the price versus a new cylinder head, as it may be more expensive to rebuild than to replace. Pretty standard operation, as nothing is built to last anymore. Ask them to add an oil groove to the insert while they are at it. |
|
Title: Re: I've bought a box of bits Post by DavidP on 11/13/15 at 13:23:55 Well I have now got to the stage where everything is cleaned up and I am just awaiting for the parts I ordered. In the meantime I have been looking at all of the random bits and most of them I think that I have worked out. However there are two parts that I am not sure about. The first is a plain spring clip about 1 inch in diameter. It is not like a circlip with holes to fit pliers, it is just a plain piece of spring wire. The second is a long spiral spring about 7 inches long. I tried to post some pictures but I guess there are restrictions on Newbies posting images. Any help will be gratefully received. Thanks DavidP Hmm looks like I can post an image after all. :-/ |
|
Title: Re: I've bought a box of bits Post by Dave on 11/13/15 at 13:29:05 That round clip looks like the one that holds the wrist pin into the piston. If the 7" long spring is shiny....most likely it was on the vacuum line for the fuel petcock. Here is the photo in the Tech Section for how to test the vacuum petcock. http://i600.photobucket.com/albums/tt82/serowbot/plug.jpg?t=1251936339 |
|
Title: Re: I've bought a box of bits Post by DavidP on 11/14/15 at 12:28:39 Thank you Dave both of your suggestions were spot on. I appreciate your help. |
|
Title: Re: I've bought a box of bits Post by justin_o_guy2 on 11/14/15 at 21:55:14 Are you saying you don't have but one clip on your wrist pin? |
|
Title: Re: I've bought a box of bits Post by DavidP on 11/15/15 at 09:19:51 No, because I bought a box of bits I guess the other clip is lost to the wind. If there were two clips I probably would have worked out that they are the wrist pin clips. My concern was that this one clip might have been the one that goes on the flux capacitor that is connected to the limited slip sproglifier on the second cam shaft and I would have had to the take the engine out of the frame to fit it. On a more serious note I found out purely by chance that when you order a new piston you do not get a pin or clips with it and indeed they come extra. Not everything has changed for the better in the 45 years since I last worked on a motorcycle engine. DavidP |
|
Title: Re: I've bought a box of bits Post by justin_o_guy2 on 11/15/15 at 18:04:00 Yeah, I was shocked when the pin didn't come with the piston. What bothered me more was the Raptor first oversize piston just didn't agree with the rings. The end gap was over spec, and I went back Three times,while they ordered, I waited. After three times, the owner noticed I was being there a lot, asked, I explained. He told the parts guy Take the piston, Find a piston and rings that spec out, and give it to him, for no added charge. Every customer who THEY sold those pistols and rings to, have excessive ring gaps. |
|
Title: Re: I've bought a box of bits Post by Dave on 11/16/15 at 04:10:10 Yep, I supposed in an effort to keep costs down they don't include the pin or clips with the piston (or the rings), and in the parts list it does say "Piston".....not "Piston Assembly". |
|
Title: Re: I've bought a box of bits Post by Gus on 11/16/15 at 05:30:24 It is aMazing what establishment thinks they need to sell us these days. |
|
Title: Re: I've bought a box of bits Post by justin_o_guy2 on 11/16/15 at 06:15:34 32090413020E151308000D12610 wrote:
Yeah, I get it, and, some pins Will re run, so, I'd package them that way. It's a lot more, reasonable to sell a piston without the pin than a thermostat without a gasket. |
|
Title: Re: I've bought a box of bits Post by DavidP on 11/16/15 at 08:07:01 Well guys thanks for your input thus far. I am still waiting on my honing tool and the piston which should arrive tomorrow. In the meantime I am laying out the nuts and bolts in order to reassemble the cylinder and the head. I am pretty sure that I have it sorted with the exception of the 4 nuts that hold the head down. The previous owner did a pretty good job of bagging up the parts but I cannot find a set of matching 9mm nuts and washers. Unfortunately my manual does not show a clear picture of the nuts and as I didn't take it apart I am not sure what they look like. Also the manual says to use a copper washer on the stud nearest the exhaust port but there is no reference to washers on the other studs. So here is the question, are the nuts on the studs domed like in this image and is there an odd one as shown here. Many thanks DavidP |
|
Title: Re: I've bought a box of bits Post by verslagen1 on 11/16/15 at 08:18:19 yup, and you'll need copper washers for all. there's also 2 smaller nuts (like the odd one) for underneath. |
|
Title: Re: I've bought a box of bits Post by DavidP on 11/23/15 at 14:20:26 Hello Everyone, First off, thank you for all your advice it has been very helpful. I have now rebuilt the engine and it is back in the frame. For the most part the person who dismantled it did a great job in laying out the screw and nuts and bolts etc. and in many cases put them back in the correct locations. That said there are a couple of things that confuse me. The first is I have what I would describe as long strip of coarse steel wool that has been folded over and over until it can't be folded again. Does it go in that void on the left side of the head near the decompressor? Also the left side chrome trim on the top of the head there is a long screw at the front. This just seems to fall into the fins of the head. Is it fixed by a nut and a lock washer or has something broken from the fin? It is probably not a big deal as I can just purchase the correct nut if necessary. Finally the rubber hose that starts from the top of the cylinder head. I assume that feeds oily fumes to the air box, but I cannot find the appropriate fitting for it. Are those gases reburnt or just vented to atmosphere. Many thanks DavidP |
|
Title: Re: I've bought a box of bits Post by Dave on 11/23/15 at 14:33:21 The scrubby thing goes into the cylinder head cover at the place where the breather tube exits the top of the head cover. It helps to keep the oil down in the engine while letting the air out. You can see it in the lower right side of this photo. http://i66.tinypic.com/t8owaf.jpg The funky bolt/screw you are talking about goes upside down into the cylinder head...the bolt slides into that slot and when you put the head cover on it holds it into place. The bolt sticking up then goes through that chrome head cover cap (pretty decorative piece), and it gets a 6mm acorn nut on top. The vent hose is stuck onto the fitting in the top of the engine, passes down the right side of the engine, crosses over to the left side just in front of the carb body and passes behind the throttle cable....then it goes to a fitting on the air box just under the tube that feeds the air to the carb. The vented fumes go to a small chamber where the oil can settle out, and the air is pulled into the carb inlet and burned. Go to Oldfeller's post the head cap repair....he has a lot of photos that will help you see where things belong. http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1256079122 |
|
Title: Re: I've bought a box of bits Post by justin_o_guy2 on 11/23/15 at 15:37:11 Without a tool to measure the ID you won't know if the cylinder is tapered or out of round. If it's a fairly low mileage engine, then yeah, hone with oil, get the crosshatch, put rings on and measure the end gap. There's a too tight and a too loose. Stagger ring gaps according to the manual. |
|
Title: Re: I've bought a box of bits Post by DavidP on 11/24/15 at 07:28:30 Thanks Dave you certainly know the Savage. Sadly it is too late for the oil screen mesh as the cover is on and the engine installed. If I end up with excess oil in the air box I will just have to find a work around. I guess what threw me with the dress up plate was that the person who stripped it down put the screw back in the covers and clearly the front one was not correct. I think that I will just get a nut and lock washer to fit and snug it all down. Thank you for the directions for the oil line, I did not think that it might cross over to the other side of the frame duh. Also thanks to everyone else who commented and to this site. Things I didn't ask but learned. 1. How to cure the infamous Suzuki weep. 2. Only to use Rotella T oil 3. Don't let it idle on the side stand. 4. Fill the engine through the tappet inspection plates after a rebuild. All great stuff Thanks DavidP |
|
Title: Re: I've bought a box of bits Post by Dave on 11/24/15 at 08:03:11 You really need to bite the bullet and just pull the head cover back off, and put the screen where it belongs. It has to be there or you will have t too much air and oil coming out your breather tube. It acts as a bit of a damper to even out the "huffing" in/out of the vent tube, and it filters out the large oil droplets. You can pull the head cover and put it back on with the engine in the frame.....it is no big deal. |
|
Title: Re: I've bought a box of bits Post by DavidP on 11/24/15 at 14:59:11 OK Dave you talked me into doing it. Actually deep down I know it's the right thing to do it just seems counter intuitive to be taking it apart when things were going so well. It will also give me the opportunity to work out the deal with that front screw on the left side trim piece. Sadly she who must be obeyed has declared that tomorrow is booked to clean the house in preparation for the ravenous hoards descending on us. Thursday will be the usual orgy of gluttony and drunkenness followed by unspeakable remorse. Friday will be spent recovering from the overdose of anesthetic taken to numb the pain of spending time with the family. So it looks like Saturday is my next play date. I will keep you posted. DavidP |
|
Title: Re: I've bought a box of bits Post by Dave on 11/24/15 at 15:36:00 I kind hate the screw up front to hold the chrome cap.....if you put it in you are committed to always using the chrome trim - or stacking washers so you can put a nut on top (it does hold the left front corner of the head cover tight and should be used). It also makes one more thing to juggle when you put the cover on and try not to smear the sealer. I cut a piece of threaded rod to the correct length, then I just sneak a nut between the lower fins with threadlocker on it. If I ever decide I don't want the chrome cover - I can just remove the long rod and shorten it a bit. Let me know if you want one...and I can mail it to you. Dave |
|
Title: Re: I've bought a box of bits Post by DavidP on 11/25/15 at 11:49:27 Thank you Dave that is a very kind offer. What I am going to do is to slip a locknut under the fin and use the chrome screw that was in the front hole of the trim piece. I am guessing that at some time in its life someone has just lost the correct piece. If this doesn't work and the cover leaks I will get back to you regarding the rod, but I really appreciate your kindness. While I am taking advantage of your time there is another part that I am not too sure about. My guess is maybe a hold down bracket for the original battery but after the nausea with the oil strainer I would like to be certain that it is not something vital that involves me pulling the engine out. As always many thanks DavidP |
|
Title: Re: I've bought a box of bits Post by Dave on 11/25/15 at 11:55:20 That is the bracket to hold the front of the seat in place. The fuel tank has rubber grommets in the rear mount, and that piece goes on top of the rubber grommets with the tab facing rearward. |
|
Title: Re: I've bought a box of bits Post by DavidP on 11/25/15 at 12:01:59 Thanks Dave you are the man. |
|
Title: Re: I've bought a box of bits Post by Dave on 11/25/15 at 12:39:11 If they had a game show called "Identify That Savage Part".....I could be a worthy opponent! I gotta' hand it to you for taking on a Basket Case project....when you have never seen where the parts came from. |
|
Title: Re: I've bought a box of bits Post by Art Webb on 11/26/15 at 18:50:14 546F6275646873756E666B74070 wrote:
Agreed, taking on a box o bits when you ARE familiar with the bike (or car) is pretty brave, doing it with no foreknowledge is plain ballsy |
|
Title: Re: I've bought a box of bits Post by DavidP on 11/30/15 at 06:48:21 Well thank you for those kind words, it certainly is an interesting project. Dave, I took your advice and installed the mesh oil screen. Your were right it was no big deal. I would say (for the benefit of anyone who might be inspired by my small success) that what saved my day was having a 1/4 inch drive socket set. This was the only thing small enough to get to the bolt that is under the inlet valve cover. Anyway onwards and upwards I am now off to find some 10mm locknuts for the rear engine mounts, then off with the rear wheel and on with the drive belt. Once again many thanks for all the help DavidP |
|
Title: Re: I've bought a box of bits Post by Art Webb on 11/30/15 at 11:57:38 with bikes you're usually better off with 1/4 drive stuff than 3/8, it's harder to strip soft aluminum threads (though not actually hard) |
|
Title: Re: I've bought a box of bits Post by Gus on 11/30/15 at 13:15:20 I carry a small 1/4" drive set in my bags all the time. [ch55357][ch56841] |
|
Title: Re: I've bought a box of bits Post by DavidP on 12/01/15 at 19:19:24 Well folks I have made some good progress in the last few days. I was held up for the want of a 32mm socket to torque the drive pulley on but that is now done. Basically I am following the manual in reverse and all that now remains is to put the fuel tank back on. However before I do I have a couple of questions. Once I got the battery/tool box bolted down (and that was quite a job I can tell you) I don't see anything that would clamp the battery down. Does it just sit in the box? I bought a new AGM battery which looks like a snug fit so maybe. Also the box of bits is now satisfyingly small but I have these three screws left. I don't think that the look like they belong to a Suzuki but what do I know? As always thanks for your help DavidP |
|
Title: Re: I've bought a box of bits Post by DavidP on 12/02/15 at 10:56:00 Hello again, Sadly another question although in my defense I have scoured the four corners of the internet, the manual and this site to no avail. I am trying to connect the fuel tank and the carburetor but am confused as to what goes where (remember I didn't take this apart). What I know is, This is a California bike and therefore has a carbon cylinder in front of the rear wheel. I am pretty sure that the vent line from the fuel tank crosses the frame and connects to a line on the left side which looks like it heads off to the canister. On the right side there is a line coming up that maybe connects to the carburetor on the right side. There is a large line from the petcock which looks like it should be the main fuel line and the petcock also has a smaller line which goes where? Here is an image of the right side and the left. In the foreground you can see a line that just seems to go up into the frame. I know that anywhere else in the world that could be a vent line but I find it hard to believe that California forces you to have closed system and then vents vapors to the air. On the left side you can see another line that seems to go no where again I can't believe it vents to air. Thank you in advance DavidP |
|
Title: Re: I've bought a box of bits Post by DavidP on 12/02/15 at 10:59:00 OK it looks like you can only post one image per so here is the left side. The foreground I am sure is the main fuel line and in the background id a line to no where. Thanks guys |
|
Title: Re: I've bought a box of bits Post by Dave on 12/02/15 at 11:12:42 The canister connects to the nipple on the backside of the carb on the right side....the nipple that looks like it vents to the top of the float bowl. The small line form the petcock attaches to the nipple on the front right side of the carb....the nipple that looks like it goes to the intake nearest the engine cylinder. The two nippleson the backside top of the float bowl that are a bit angled....one on each side that match. They have hoses that just go up and tuck inside the frame tube above the cylinder...they are vents. (Still scratching my head about those screws....I just don't recognize them as a Savage part). |
|
Title: Re: I've bought a box of bits Post by verslagen1 on 12/02/15 at 11:45:46 do those screws have the "JIS dimple" ? Only place I can recall that use flat head screws are on the carb and the headlight. Even the controls use pan head screws. |
|
Title: Re: I've bought a box of bits Post by DavidP on 12/02/15 at 14:41:47 Thank you for your help guys, if you don't recognize those screws then I am sure they don't belong on the Savage. Well I got it all buttoned up today but to prove that every silver lining has a cloud my new battery is 1/4 inch too tall, despite Amazon promising that "This is a fit for your 1997 Suzuki Savage". Oh well a trip to the returns department tomorrow. I did hook up an auto battery just to test the electrics and that leads to two simple questions. Everything works but should there be a light in the speedometer next to the neutral light that tells you that the side stand is down? If there is I guess the bulb is blown. Also the high beam tell tale does not work (the high beam itself does work) please tell me that the bulbs can be changed from the top because I had a dreadful time getting the tank on and I don't relish doing that again. Anyway here she is. One lady owner gently driven and from 5 feet away she looks pretty much like new. As always thanks for you help. DavidP |
|
Title: Re: I've bought a box of bits Post by Dave on 12/02/15 at 15:47:13 The sidestand light was only made in the early bikes...not sure how many years. All the speedometers still have the place to put the bulb, but the hole has a plug in it, and they are not printed with the words and the wiring harness doesn't have the circuit for the indicator light anymore. |
|
Title: Re: I've bought a box of bits Post by verslagen1 on 12/02/15 at 18:25:18 0227302F2216460 wrote:
Sorry, all bulbs change from underneath. ;D get used to it, you need to take the tank off for everything. |
|
Title: Re: I've bought a box of bits Post by DavidP on 12/02/15 at 19:27:18 Thanks to both of you for your help. The tell tale is never going to be repaired. The two most difficult jobs on this entire rebuild were fitting the battery box and fitting the fuel tank, although I don't know why. I was in high dudgeon when I found the battery would not fit but now I have calmed down I think I will hard wire an auto battery and see if I can get the engine to start. That is the job for Thursday. All the best DavidP |
|
Title: Re: I've bought a box of bits Post by Steve H on 12/03/15 at 20:52:31 I've got an '87 and it does not have the sidestand light. |
|
Title: Re: I've bought a box of bits Post by DavidP on 12/04/15 at 07:06:00 A big shout out to everyone who helped with my project. I realized that the battery box was a little distorted and once straightened out the battery (only just) slid in. I poured in some fresh gas let it fill and then drained the bowl in case there was any dirt in the tank. Then to my astonishment the thing fired right up. I live on a private road so I was able to take it on a 2 mile shakedown and it looks and sounds great. I suppose I should go visit the DMV and get a permit now. This is where the fun part of the project starts you see the last time I rode a bike was in 1971 and that was back in my home country of England where they drive on the other side of the road. Also the bikes I drove were typically old Triumphs with the gear shift on the right side. Anyway once again many thanks I can honestly say that I could not have done it without you. Oh and by the way those three mysterious screws from an earlier post, they look very similar to the screws that hold the indicators to their stalks. I am guessing they have a tendency to unwind and after the heads were mashed they were replaced. All the best DavidP |
|
Title: Re: I've bought a box of bits Post by Dave on 12/04/15 at 07:22:08 Woo Hoo! It runs! I rode a Triumph about 30 years ago that was a right side shift.....that sure was a weird experience - hours and hours of left side shifter habits were just impossible to adapt on that one and only right shift ride. I kept trying to use the right side shifter as the rear brake! Those screws you showed appeared to have a tapered bottom side...the turn signals all have flat bottomed screws I believe. |
|
SuzukiSavage.com » Powered by YaBB 2.2! YaBB © 2000-2007. All Rights Reserved. |